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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
November 16 2016 19:26 GMT
#124961
I don't think "full implementation" would make Obamacare more palatable. It seems to be leading to rising premiums and people are quite unhappy about that.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 16 2016 19:28 GMT
#124962
On November 17 2016 04:26 LegalLord wrote:
I don't think "full implementation" would make Obamacare more palatable. It seems to be leading to rising premiums and people are quite unhappy about that.

All of the current problems with Obamacare were predicted by its opponents before its passage and implementation. No aspect of its failure is a surprise to anyone who has been paying attention.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 16 2016 19:33 GMT
#124963
So Ted Cruz is being considered for attorney general. My first reaction was why the fuck would Trump consider him. My second reaction was that it could be a sneaky smart move. Cruz is the type of ideologue who could cause a lot of problems for Trump's agenda on Capitol Hill. Promoting Cruz to AG is an easy and clean way to get him out of there. Also, there's the added benefit of a Cruz appointment pissing everyone on the left off.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18869 Posts
November 16 2016 19:34 GMT
#124964
On November 17 2016 04:28 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2016 04:26 LegalLord wrote:
I don't think "full implementation" would make Obamacare more palatable. It seems to be leading to rising premiums and people are quite unhappy about that.

All of the current problems with Obamacare were predicted by its opponents before its passage and implementation. No aspect of its failure is a surprise to anyone who has been paying attention.

That's nonsense, the law changed dramatically during passage and after Supreme Court test.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
November 16 2016 19:37 GMT
#124965
On November 17 2016 04:33 xDaunt wrote:
So Ted Cruz is being considered for attorney general. My first reaction was why the fuck would Trump consider him. My second reaction was that it could be a sneaky smart move. Cruz is the type of ideologue who could cause a lot of problems for Trump's agenda on Capitol Hill. Promoting Cruz to AG is an easy and clean way to get him out of there. Also, there's the added benefit of a Cruz appointment pissing everyone on the left off.

I'll put it simply; I'd like to see less of Ted Cruz.

I find it hard to imagine that he'd be a worse AG than Lynch has recently shown herself to be, though.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States6540 Posts
November 16 2016 19:45 GMT
#124966
Among Corker, Cruz, and Sessions, it can't a good idea to take but so many people out of the senate.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
November 16 2016 19:50 GMT
#124967
On November 17 2016 04:26 LegalLord wrote:
I don't think "full implementation" would make Obamacare more palatable. It seems to be leading to rising premiums and people are quite unhappy about that.

you seem to be missing the point;
the reason premiums are rising so much is BECAUSE it's not fully implemented.

of course that most people aren't even paying the actual premium due to subsidies is another matter, wanted to mention it.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 16 2016 19:53 GMT
#124968
On November 17 2016 04:34 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2016 04:28 xDaunt wrote:
On November 17 2016 04:26 LegalLord wrote:
I don't think "full implementation" would make Obamacare more palatable. It seems to be leading to rising premiums and people are quite unhappy about that.

All of the current problems with Obamacare were predicted by its opponents before its passage and implementation. No aspect of its failure is a surprise to anyone who has been paying attention.

That's nonsense, the law changed dramatically during passage and after Supreme Court test.

All of the problems with premium increases were predicted before passage. The root problem is that healthy people weren't sufficiently compelled to get insured, thus they didn't join in sufficient numbers to offset the cost of all of the unhealthy people with preexisting conditions who got insurance as a result of Obamacare.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18869 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-16 19:56:57
November 16 2016 19:56 GMT
#124969
To hone in on one of many flaws in that reasoning, if the Medicare expansion had gone through without Supreme Court interference, millions of borderline eligible folks in states that refused to set up their own exchanges would have been covered (there's reason to think that problems with federal exchange implementation in states without their own exchange lies at the locus of Obamacare's price control problems). That alone throws a wrench into this "all smart people knew it was going to fail" reasoning.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
November 16 2016 19:57 GMT
#124970
it's certainly somehwat disingenuous to claim a system wasn't going to work when you actively try to prevent it from being implemented and refuse to try to make it work.
not that the objections are entirely without merit, they do have considerable merit; just don't pretend part of the reason for the problems isn't simply interference and obstruction.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-16 20:06:04
November 16 2016 20:02 GMT
#124971
On November 17 2016 04:56 farvacola wrote:
To hone in on one of many flaws in that reasoning, if the Medicare expansion had gone through without Supreme Court interference, millions of borderline eligible folks in states that refused to set up their own exchanges would have been covered (there's reason to think that problems with federal exchange implementation in states without their own exchange lies at the locus of Obamacare's price control problems). That alone throws a wrench into this "all smart people knew it was going to fail" reasoning.

I don't think it would have mattered:

Aetna's decision to abandon its ObamaCare expansion plans and rethink its participation altogether came as a surprise to many. It shouldn't have. Everything that's happened now was predicted by the law's critics years ago.

Aetna CEO Mark Bertolini said that this was supposed to be a break-even year for its ObamaCare business. Instead, the company has already lost $200 million, which it expect that to hit $320 million before the year it out. He said the company was abandoning plans to expand into five other states and is reviewing whether to stay in the 15 states where Aetna (AET) current sells ObamaCare plans.

Aetna's announcement follows UnitedHealth Group's (UNH) decision to leave most ObamaCare markets, Humana's (HUM) decision to drop out of some, Blue Cross Blue Shield's announcement that it was quitting the individual market in Minnesota, and the failure of most of the 23 government-created insurance co-ops. And it follows news that insurance companies are putting in for double-digit rate hikes that in some cases top 60%, and news that the Congressional Budget Office has sharply downgraded its long-term enrollment forecast for the exchanges.

Who could have envisioned such problems? Not ObamaCare backers. They were endlessly promising that the law would create vibrant, highly competitive markets that would lower the cost of insurance.

Critics, however, were spot on. They said that, despite the individual mandate, ObamaCare wouldn't attract enough young and healthy people to keep premiums down.

The Heritage Foundation, for example, said that under ObamaCare, "many under age 35 will opt out of buying insurance altogether, choosing to pay the penalty instead." That's just what has happened.

Critics predicted sharp hikes in premiums and big increases in medical claims. That's what's happened.

Critics said people would game the system, waiting until they got sick to buy insurance, then canceling it once the bills were paid, because of the law's "guaranteed issue" mandate. That's happening, too. In fact, administration officials are trying to tighten the rules to mitigate this problem.

Critics said insurers would abandon ObamaCare amid substantial losses. Anyone want to dispute that this is happening?

These dire predictions weren't pulled out of thin air. Several states had already tried ObamaCare-style market reforms in the 1990s, only to see their individual insurance markets collapse. A 2007 report by Milliman Inc. looked at eight states that had adopted the "guaranteed issue" and "community rating" reforms at the heart of ObamaCare.

Like Obama, these states wanted to create insurance markets where no one could be denied coverage, or charged more, just because they were sick. But Milliman found that these regulations resulted in fast-rising premiums, a drop in enrollment in the individual market, and an exodus of health insurers.

Sound familiar?

By the time ObamaCare came around, most of those states either abandoned or overhauled this regulatory scheme, only to have it reimposed on them.

ObamaCare architects figured they could avoid the fate of those state experiments by including the individual mandate and subsidies for lower income families.

However, consulting firm Oliver Wyman correctly predicted in 2009 that these wouldn't work, either. "The subsidies and mandates," it concluded, "are not sufficient to drive high participation of younger, healthier members."

Aetna's Bertolini says that what's needed now to keep ObamaCare functioning are bigger and more generous taxpayer financed insurance subsidies — i.e., bailouts. Democrats say what's needed is a "public option" so that consumers in states abandoned by private insurers will be able to get coverage.

How about instead policymakers listen to the original ObamaCare critics? For decades, they've been calling for reforms that lift myriad anti-competitive government regulations, as well as fixes to the tax code so that it no longer massively distorts the insurance market.

The resulting free market competition in health care would do what it does everywhere it's allowed to function — improve quality while improving affordability. In other words, it would achieve the things ObamaCare promised but miserably failed to deliver.


Source.

Edit: And to take things further, my recollection is that the Obamacare skeptics predicted that the financial collapse of Obamacare would happen right about now.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
November 16 2016 20:04 GMT
#124972
Trump isn't even president and his administration is already a mess. People expect it to get better when he's officially president? Incompetence AND outlandish policies that wont work? Dems have nothing to worry about in 2020.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
November 16 2016 20:06 GMT
#124973
Personally I don't think that "competition" for a good like healthcare really works, and especially so not as a purely private enterprise. There is much incentive for everyone to keep prices up and implicitly collude against cutting the price down to a fraction of what it is. If private enterprises are competing against an average quality public option, that can work. But the entire idea of "free market competition will make it work" doesn't work. The name of the "Affordable Care Act" is sort of ironic since it is no such thing.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
November 16 2016 20:07 GMT
#124974
On November 17 2016 05:04 On_Slaught wrote:
Trump isn't even president and his administration is already a mess. People expect it to get better when he's officially president? Incompetence AND outlandish policies that wont work? Dems have nothing to worry about in 2020.

In all likelihood the Dems will win in 2020. I don't expect Trump to be a popular president, but the Dems have some fixing to do in their own party if they want to be viable on the national stage in the legislature.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18869 Posts
November 16 2016 20:07 GMT
#124975
Of course those critical of Obamacare don't think that massive changes to the law would have mattered, which is why that's an op-ed that heavily samples the logic of the head of a company that opposed Obamacare from the get-go. None of that really changes the fact that these backwards glances of certainty are subjective, partisan explanations. Naturally, as a fan of single payer, I don't think Obamacare was enough, but it's inaccurate to suggest that the law did not find its implementation successfully frustrated throughout much of its life.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 16 2016 20:09 GMT
#124976
Sigh...

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-16 20:19:32
November 16 2016 20:11 GMT
#124977
On November 17 2016 05:07 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2016 05:04 On_Slaught wrote:
Trump isn't even president and his administration is already a mess. People expect it to get better when he's officially president? Incompetence AND outlandish policies that wont work? Dems have nothing to worry about in 2020.

In all likelihood the Dems will win in 2020. I don't expect Trump to be a popular president, but the Dems have some fixing to do in their own party if they want to be viable on the national stage in the legislature.


I agree that the Democratic party has to do some soul-searching but I don't think it's as bad as people on this forum, like xDaunt, make it out to be. Most of that is wishful thinking. She did win the popular vote and I think it was you that mention that she was only like 150 thousand votes away from victory and the swing States. Just having a different person then Clinton will go a long way towards covering that gap.

As I see it the candle is burning from both ends. Trump will inevitably disappoint the people who don't normally vote or who don't normally vote Republican who voted for him while the Democrats will put up a more palatable candidates plus any other Pro working-class reforms they implement between now and then.

I could easily see 2020 as the year of Elizabeth Warren. A woman who has some of that Sanders street cred

Edit : like in the tweet above it is obviously stupid and unproductive however the election just happened. The Democrats have years to get this straight and it will not be figured out in the first month or week after losing the election.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
November 16 2016 20:12 GMT
#124978
I wonder how many scapegoats they will go through before they blame the biggest and most important reason, the "incompetence" from "Hillary Clinton and her retainers."
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7328 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-16 20:21:53
November 16 2016 20:18 GMT
#124979
The reason the ACA wont work is rooted in trying to use the insurance industry to drive down costs. Until you tackle the cost of healthcare nothing will change.

Whats hilarious is everyone saying people not signing up is driving premiums up because the risk pool isnt large enough and doesnt have enough healthy people.

You know what has a large risk pool full of healthy people that cam leverage costs against health care providers and big pharma? Medicare for all with basic tweaks to allow medicare to negotiate drug/treatment prices to enter the US market.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
November 16 2016 20:20 GMT
#124980
UHC and Aetna couldn't hack it on the exchanges because they had a shitty approach. Anthem is staying in and so are a bunch of smaller insurers. At best Aetna is using "we'll leave" as a threat to try and get their merger with Humana approved. To me, it looks like they're idiots for totally exiting a segment with millions of potential covered lives.

On a different note, I don't see Warren achieving much. I had high hopes for her originally with the role she played in establishing the CFPB, but she doesn't seem to have done much except yell at John Stumpf and rail against Wall Street. I really thought there was more to her than that.
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