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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 6219

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
November 13 2016 17:32 GMT
#124361
On November 14 2016 02:26 Slaughter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2016 02:18 Mohdoo wrote:
On November 14 2016 02:12 LegalLord wrote:
On November 14 2016 01:52 Mohdoo wrote:
On November 14 2016 01:35 LegalLord wrote:
On November 14 2016 01:28 Mohdoo wrote:
While Trump may be a dingle berry, his plans for student debt and H1B visas sounds damn good to me

What plan on H1-B visas? As far as I can tell he's really quite inconsistent about it.


Good point regarding details. I am just operating under the assumption that at the end of the day, significantly less people will be awarded H1-B visas. In my industry, I have directly seen it blow ass and just result in shitty engineers.

I too am under the impression that less H1-B visas would be better. I'd be lying if I said that I didn't push myself towards a direction that involves having to deal with less of those due to how unpleasant it's been to deal with those.

No way to have this discussion without it coming of as completely and utterly racist though, which is one of the major problems with many Democratic "identity politics" situations though, lol
.


They come from worse schools and build experience in less developed/advanced environments. Its not racist to say a country is worse in some way. In my work, I am given unique experiences because of my company's place in our industry and I would not expect someone in India to get this.


I get that impression as well, but it doesn't seem to stop companies from hiring them here or moving offices outside the US and using mostly non americans who aren't quite as knowledgeable in whatever specific field they are working on but they are used to do a lot of the base stuff and oversaw by someone who is an expert in that field.


These sites, at least in my field, only survive because of constant support from their American counterparts.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
November 13 2016 17:34 GMT
#124362
On November 14 2016 02:25 TheYango wrote:
Maybe its different in other tech industries but from my experience in software, US labor demand exceeds supply and H-1B visas allow tech companies to fill their labor demand with immigrant workers. Actual quality of these workers varies from company to company but the big name tech companies are generally able to tap into the most highly qualified workers who match, if not exceed, their American counterparts.

Anecdotal: my experience over the course of many years has led me to conclude that a very large part of why there is a "supply shortage" if such a thing exists (that is very disputable), is because of a serial failure of the US to develop high-quality homegrown labor, requiring a constant stream of immigrants to keep things working well. The difference between the US and many others in its reliance on immigrants to produce high-quality work is striking. Most developed nations are far better at developing homegrown labor than the US. Though that's not to say that H1-B labor is the main source of that "high quality labor."

Again, it's anecdotal but I'm curious to what extent people do and do not corroborate that experience.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
November 13 2016 17:43 GMT
#124363
On November 14 2016 02:34 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2016 02:25 TheYango wrote:
Maybe its different in other tech industries but from my experience in software, US labor demand exceeds supply and H-1B visas allow tech companies to fill their labor demand with immigrant workers. Actual quality of these workers varies from company to company but the big name tech companies are generally able to tap into the most highly qualified workers who match, if not exceed, their American counterparts.

Anecdotal: my experience over the course of many years has led me to conclude that a very large part of why there is a "supply shortage" if such a thing exists (that is very disputable), is because of a serial failure of the US to develop high-quality homegrown labor, requiring a constant stream of immigrants to keep things working well. The difference between the US and many others in its reliance on immigrants to produce high-quality work is striking. Most developed nations are far better at developing homegrown labor than the US. Though that's not to say that H1-B labor is the main source of that "high quality labor."

Again, it's anecdotal but I'm curious to what extent people do and do not corroborate that experience.

Yeah it's because we've been paying them less and less while the basic cost of living has increased. We marginalize our own workers in favor of rewarding shareholders.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
November 13 2016 17:46 GMT
#124364
On November 14 2016 02:32 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2016 02:26 Slaughter wrote:
On November 14 2016 02:18 Mohdoo wrote:
On November 14 2016 02:12 LegalLord wrote:
On November 14 2016 01:52 Mohdoo wrote:
On November 14 2016 01:35 LegalLord wrote:
On November 14 2016 01:28 Mohdoo wrote:
While Trump may be a dingle berry, his plans for student debt and H1B visas sounds damn good to me

What plan on H1-B visas? As far as I can tell he's really quite inconsistent about it.


Good point regarding details. I am just operating under the assumption that at the end of the day, significantly less people will be awarded H1-B visas. In my industry, I have directly seen it blow ass and just result in shitty engineers.

I too am under the impression that less H1-B visas would be better. I'd be lying if I said that I didn't push myself towards a direction that involves having to deal with less of those due to how unpleasant it's been to deal with those.

No way to have this discussion without it coming of as completely and utterly racist though, which is one of the major problems with many Democratic "identity politics" situations though, lol
.


They come from worse schools and build experience in less developed/advanced environments. Its not racist to say a country is worse in some way. In my work, I am given unique experiences because of my company's place in our industry and I would not expect someone in India to get this.


I get that impression as well, but it doesn't seem to stop companies from hiring them here or moving offices outside the US and using mostly non americans who aren't quite as knowledgeable in whatever specific field they are working on but they are used to do a lot of the base stuff and oversaw by someone who is an expert in that field.


These sites, at least in my field, only survive because of constant support from their American counterparts.


Yep, pretty sure why my engineer friend has to frequently travel to their sites in the midwest from the coast.
Never Knows Best.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 13 2016 17:47 GMT
#124365
On November 14 2016 02:43 Jormundr wrote:
Yeah it's because we've been paying them less and less while the basic cost of living has increased. We marginalize our own workers in favor of rewarding shareholders.

I'm not sure how that's relevant at all to LegalLord's point.

I'd argue that a lot of America's inability to develop a strong domestic skilled workforce lies in the education system, which fails to develop strong professional skills prior to graduate-level professional education.
Moderator
killa_robot
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada1884 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-13 17:49:37
November 13 2016 17:49 GMT
#124366
On November 14 2016 02:34 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2016 02:25 TheYango wrote:
Maybe its different in other tech industries but from my experience in software, US labor demand exceeds supply and H-1B visas allow tech companies to fill their labor demand with immigrant workers. Actual quality of these workers varies from company to company but the big name tech companies are generally able to tap into the most highly qualified workers who match, if not exceed, their American counterparts.

Anecdotal: my experience over the course of many years has led me to conclude that a very large part of why there is a "supply shortage" if such a thing exists (that is very disputable), is because of a serial failure of the US to develop high-quality homegrown labor, requiring a constant stream of immigrants to keep things working well. The difference between the US and many others in its reliance on immigrants to produce high-quality work is striking. Most developed nations are far better at developing homegrown labor than the US. Though that's not to say that H1-B labor is the main source of that "high quality labor."

Again, it's anecdotal but I'm curious to what extent people do and do not corroborate that experience.


Tech industry got into the bad habit of simply stealing high level talent rather than training new talent. This lead to a bunch of people who went to school for the industry never getting their foot in the door. Eventually the high end talent got old/too expensive/they needed more of them.

Rather than going through the effort of training new people, they've upped their requirements of new employees to unreasonable levels (like 2+ years of experience for entry level positions), thus ensuring no new talent at all. This in turn gives them an excuse to say "Hey, no one we need is here".

Now, rather than try to fix the issue, they're just expanding their headhunting tactics to other countries. In no way, shape, or form does demand actually exceed supply, it's just they aren't willing to train people anymore.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 13 2016 17:53 GMT
#124367
On November 14 2016 02:49 killa_robot wrote:
Rather than going through the effort of training new people, they've upped their requirements of new employees to unreasonable levels (like 2+ years of experience for entry level positions), thus ensuring no new talent at all. This in turn gives them an excuse to say "Hey, no one we need is here".

To be fair, that one's more a product of "spend 2 years going nowhere at failed startups" being a norm in the Silicon Valley culture. Unfortunately, that's also not really feasible for people who aren't fresh college grads with nothing to lose, and who instead have families they might need to support.
Moderator
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
November 13 2016 17:55 GMT
#124368
I'd argue that the issue is deeper than that, and that it's cultural. There is a far, far stronger undertone of anti-intellectualism in the US than in most other countries, and people who pursue difficult technical work are not respected. They will be compensated with a wage that is more than what a third world worker could ever hope to make at home but it doesn't come with respect or any real consistency (many technical folk are paid pretty poorly these days). I've seen enough to be convinced that the US system is permissive enough that people from any part of the system could rise pretty far up - but that it requires a far above average depth of cultural development that is not common among homegrown Americans but that very well can be among foreigners of more intellectual cultures.

Frankly, the cynic in me says that the US is such a great place for immigrants because the culture of the country dumbs down the competition to make it easier for immigrants to do well. That isn't exactly true but I'm sure there is some truth to it.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
November 13 2016 17:57 GMT
#124369
It's also part of a general trend across all industries and jobs wherein people who haven't been employed recently or aren't fresh out of college often don't get picked.
So they only offer jobs to people who already have them.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 13 2016 17:58 GMT
#124370
On November 14 2016 02:55 LegalLord wrote:
Frankly, the cynic in me says that the US is such a great place for immigrants because the culture of the country dumbs down the competition to make it easier for immigrants to do well. That isn't exactly true but I'm sure there is some truth to it.

It might not be exactly true, but I have quite a few Chinese immigrant friends who do feel this way--that they would be lost in a sea of equally-competent competitors had they stayed in China, with no way to stand out. And instead, coming to the US they can stand out because their American competitors are lazier/less motivated/more poorly trained.
Moderator
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
November 13 2016 18:14 GMT
#124371
The odd thing is that everything is absolutely there for the taking. If you want a good education in the US, it's absolutely available. A good cultural base, though, sometimes seems like a separate language that far too many Americans are just blind to.

Obviously there's no way to prove this, but that immigrants from a wide background seem to all come to the same conclusion is somewhat telling.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-13 18:22:23
November 13 2016 18:19 GMT
#124372
On November 13 2016 21:03 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 13 2016 20:18 WhiteDog wrote:
Are you expecting Jews to acknowledge the damage they made for Jesus and repair the damage ? Are they all responsible for Gaza ? Should all muslim acknowledge their indirect involvement in the terrorists attacks in Paris and repair the damage ?

Are you done strawmanning the argument yet?

It's only strawman for you. Some people actually have resentment towards jews for Gaza.

Show nested quote +
What X did, only X is responsible of, not the great grandson of X, nor Y who belong to the same community as X.
Funnily enough, this kind of argument oftentime comes with a critic of the individual responsability : it is so diluded in the collective, that any kind of action is immediatly linked not to the man who made it, but to the collective.
Collective penance has no real utility for politics, it only helps in giving psychological relief to individuals. If you want to face an inequality or a wrong doing, then create an institution, a law, a system of redistribution, do not tell groups to shut up and ask forgiveness.

Despite the first part of your paragraph being jibberish, it looks like we're getting somewhere. How about an independent oversight committee to investigate police violence? A general pardon for everybody in jail for non-violent drug-related crimes, together with a reform of the war on drugs? How about a system for anonimized job applications? How about a hotline for misconduct on the workfloor with actual power to sanction companies?

I agree with everything in bold, pretty good proposal imo. The hotline is no go : sanctions are made by a judge following the law and it's one of the key pillar of our democracy.

See how all of these are "color (and gender) blind" policies? Police violence is a real problem, although it is targeted for > 90% at blacks. Same for non-violent drug offenders, although I'm sure there will be a fair share of white meth heads and heroin fiends released under that same policy. Etc. etc.

Yep, police is a real problem. Let's change it.

Show nested quote +
By the way, I disagree about Germany : Germany didn't acknowledge it's responsability for the nazi, they made the entire humanity responsible.

I disagree, and I don't think even you agree with such a meaningless grand expression. How did Germany make Zimbabweans responsible, or the Chinese? But I'm sure this is just a part of your personal vendetta against Merkel in specific, and your hatred by default of everything Germany does in general.

It's philosophy for another time. Hannah Arendt and Heidegger would be a good start. Nothing to do with Merkel really, altho she is the product of all that.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
Piledriver
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1697 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-13 18:22:25
November 13 2016 18:19 GMT
#124373
On November 14 2016 02:08 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2016 01:59 Piledriver wrote:
On November 14 2016 01:56 Slaughter wrote:
On November 14 2016 01:52 Mohdoo wrote:
On November 14 2016 01:35 LegalLord wrote:
On November 14 2016 01:28 Mohdoo wrote:
While Trump may be a dingle berry, his plans for student debt and H1B visas sounds damn good to me

What plan on H1-B visas? As far as I can tell he's really quite inconsistent about it.


Good point regarding details. I am just operating under the assumption that at the end of the day, significantly less people will be awarded H1-B visas. In my industry, I have directly seen it blow ass and just result in shitty engineers.


Really? I have talked to engineers who think that its the american ones who are shit, though they are also in favor of less H1-B.


All they need to do is to increase the salary floor to about $100,000 (adjusted for cost of living by state maybe) so that it removes any incentive for cost cutting via hiring cheap labor, while at the same time allowing companies to retain the best talent.

Plenty of engineering fields would hope for more than 100k/year, some for starting positions. Though that's rare. I would be more comfortable with companies being required to show that they are paying an average salary to the person. They need to be paying what they show they would also be paying an American citizen.


Multiple problems with that

1) Its pretty unenforceable. The amount of manpower it would require to manually go through each job description and figure out whether they are paying enough for that position is pretty high. Also all software engineering positions are not created equal. So two software engineers in the same company with the same title will be worth different salaries depending on what stack/area they work on. A standard salary floor is far easier to implement.

2) I think you are talking anecdotally based on your personal experience, but 100k/ year is most definitely NOT a standard salary for people not living in Silicon Valley/Seattle / New York. I know a lot of graduates from schools like Georgia Tech starting at the 60k mark when they land a job within Georgia. However the salary goes up by a lot if they land a job in the Bay area.

3) Most of the jobs that are lost to the H1B are not particularly well paying in the first place. Now we could talk about labor market economics, but thats a much larger systemic problem than the H1B itself. For reference - The median salary of a software engineer employed on H1B seems to be around the 67k mark, with the lowest around 38k (data from http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=&job=Software Engineer&city=&year=2016).

4) Incompetence is not limited to people on H1B. I have seen incompetent white people who couldn't write a line of code even if their entire life depended on it occupying fairly senior positions. And hiring a competent local (non H1B) software engineer is incredibly hard if your company is not a hot startup or doesnt have a lot of name recognition.
Envy fan since NTH.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
November 13 2016 18:30 GMT
#124374
$100k isn't much when the COL of the major tech cities is beyond insane. In SV, $60k qualifies as "barely livable" while it's decent money in normal places.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
November 13 2016 18:43 GMT
#124375
On November 14 2016 02:58 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2016 02:55 LegalLord wrote:
Frankly, the cynic in me says that the US is such a great place for immigrants because the culture of the country dumbs down the competition to make it easier for immigrants to do well. That isn't exactly true but I'm sure there is some truth to it.

It might not be exactly true, but I have quite a few Chinese immigrant friends who do feel this way--that they would be lost in a sea of equally-competent competitors had they stayed in China, with no way to stand out. And instead, coming to the US they can stand out because their American competitors are lazier/less motivated/more poorly trained.


Remember there's the question of selection. The ones actually do migrate are probably more motivated to show results than those who stayed behind.
Bora Pain minha porra!
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
November 13 2016 18:46 GMT
#124376
On November 14 2016 03:43 Sbrubbles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2016 02:58 TheYango wrote:
On November 14 2016 02:55 LegalLord wrote:
Frankly, the cynic in me says that the US is such a great place for immigrants because the culture of the country dumbs down the competition to make it easier for immigrants to do well. That isn't exactly true but I'm sure there is some truth to it.

It might not be exactly true, but I have quite a few Chinese immigrant friends who do feel this way--that they would be lost in a sea of equally-competent competitors had they stayed in China, with no way to stand out. And instead, coming to the US they can stand out because their American competitors are lazier/less motivated/more poorly trained.


Remember there's the question of selection. The ones actually do migrate are probably more motivated to show results than those who stayed behind.

All this is quite anecdotal but even that I doubt. Even those I know who were solidly also-rans back home became well-above-average in the US. I attribute a lot of it to culture.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-13 18:55:04
November 13 2016 18:53 GMT
#124377
Plus isn't that the point? We're talking about the situation of foreign worker visas, so the also-rans at home aren't relevant to the discussion. What we care about is how the ones that actually did migrate compare to their US counterparts. If migrating naturally weeds out the least-qualified workers for us, that's a good thing from our perspective.
Moderator
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-13 18:59:30
November 13 2016 18:58 GMT
#124378
For those interested in the TPP and the economic and strategic impacts of trade deals, I found this article by a Brookings research fellow to be a good read. It doesn't address some of the issues I have with the TPP (in particular with regards to intellectual property and dispute settlement), but it's still informative and well argued.

The case for the Trans-Pacific Partnership

Executive summary:

Trade policy, and the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) in particular, is vitally connected to the national interests of prosperity, security, and governance. With novel rules on the digital economy, high tariff elimination targets, and disciplines to address behind-the-border protectionism, the TPP creates opportunities for American sectors that enjoy competitive strength—services, advanced manufacturing, agriculture—to expand their reach in overseas markets. Projected annual income gains from this trade deal range between $57 billion and $131 billion by 2032, compared to a baseline scenario. In sharp contrast to the experience of import competition with China, the TPP will not impose large adjustment costs in terms of employment and wages, generating instead a net (albeit small) positive effect on job creation and wage rates. However, the individual costs for displaced employees are very high, and the contours of a new pro-adjustment safety net that enables workers to navigate difficult economic transitions (brought about by technological change or trade) are highlighted below.

On the geopolitical front, the TPP enhances American influence in Asia and the world by reassuring allies and rivals that the United States is a multi-dimensional power fully anchored to the region and capable of supplying novel institutions for regional cooperation. And it represents a smart strategy vis-a-vis China’s regional and global leadership bid since it is both proactive (building a new economic architecture) and inclusive (leaving the door open for a potential Chinese accession in the future). The TPP aims to close the governance gap in the trading regime caused by the inability of the World Trade Organization (WTO) to update the multilateral rules on trade and investment for the past 20 years. The TPP’s assets to advance the dissemination of new rules are not only its reach (comprising 40 percent of world GDP), but also its diversity: bringing together nations at very different levels of development.

The prospects for congressional ratification of the TPP are clouded by the rise of an anti-trade movement in the U.S. political landscape. The conventional case for trade (focusing on the gains to be had, while downplaying the costs of transitional unemployment) does not resonate in a context of marked increases in income inequality or with still-fresh memories of significant job losses in the aftermath of the global financial crisis. We need to address the fears around liberalization, not only by driving home the point that technological change is the largest force behind the loss of U.S. manufacturing jobs, but also by developing a pro-adjustment safety net for all workers. Its core objectives should be to close the growing skill deficit in the workforce and to ensure labor mobility across geographical boundaries, across occupations, and across the skill spectrum. Concrete initiatives to pursue include employment incentives (such an expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit for lower income workers and a universal wage insurance program), plus doubling down on skill acquisition and upgrading through dedicated funding in community colleges for training programs and development of company apprenticeships, to name a few examples.

The choice ahead for us is not whether to turn inward, rather it is whether we can overcome decades of underinvesting in our most precious asset: human capital.

Source
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 13 2016 19:25 GMT
#124379
U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said on Sunday the Obama administration would do everything it could to implement a global agreement to combat climate change before President-elect Donald Trump takes office.

Kerry made the comments during a visit to New Zealand just before setting off to Marrakesh, Morocco to take part in climate talks between 200 nations.

Donald Trump, who calls global warming a hoax and has promised to quit the Paris Agreement, was considering ways to bypass a theoretical four-year procedure for leaving the accord, according to a source on Trump's transition team.

Kerry declined to speculate on what Trump might do about the Paris Agreement and noted that there was sometimes a difference between campaigning and governing.

But the top American diplomat was clear he thought further action to prevent climate change should be a priority.

"The evidence is mounting in ways that people in public life should not dare to avoid accepting as a mandate for action," Kerry told journalists at a press conference in Wellington with New Zealand Prime Minister John Key

"Until January 20 when this administration is over, we intend to do everything possible to meet our responsibility to future generations to be able to address this threat to life itself on the planet."

Kerry's visit to Wellington followed a two-day trip to Antarctica where he flew in a helicopter over the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, which would add to rising sea levels if it melts, and spoke to scientists researching how fast climate change is likely to occur.

The U.S. accounts for just under 20 percent of global greenhouse gas emissions so is considered a key player in the Paris Agreement, which has been ratified by 109 countries so far.

The accord seeks to limit rising temperatures that have been linked to increasing economic damage from desertification, extinctions of animals and plants, heat waves, floods and rising sea levels.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-13 20:17:38
November 13 2016 20:14 GMT
#124380
On November 14 2016 02:57 zlefin wrote:
It's also part of a general trend across all industries and jobs wherein people who haven't been employed recently or aren't fresh out of college often don't get picked.
So they only offer jobs to people who already have them.


I think this is a pretty clear sign that the jobs just aren't available.


On November 14 2016 02:47 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2016 02:43 Jormundr wrote:
Yeah it's because we've been paying them less and less while the basic cost of living has increased. We marginalize our own workers in favor of rewarding shareholders.

I'm not sure how that's relevant at all to LegalLord's point.

I'd argue that a lot of America's inability to develop a strong domestic skilled workforce lies in the education system, which fails to develop strong professional skills prior to graduate-level professional education.


Why would a skilled workforce exist when the jobs aren't there?
And what are you talking about with graduate-level professional education? What do you even mean by that? What level of education is that? (seriously im not being a jerk, I don't get what you mean).
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