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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On October 21 2016 06:08 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2016 06:06 KwarK wrote:On October 21 2016 06:02 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 21 2016 05:59 Danglars wrote:On October 21 2016 04:40 ZeromuS wrote:On October 21 2016 04:27 Trainrunnef wrote:On October 21 2016 04:17 IgnE wrote:On October 21 2016 03:55 Nyxisto wrote:On October 21 2016 03:43 IgnE wrote:On October 21 2016 03:33 zlefin wrote:
[quote]
there are a few different bases for the pro-life belief, some of which would be more satisfied with my proposal, some of which aren't.
and if they'd prefer the status quo in america, I can live with that.
I'd also disagree with some of your philosophical points, at any rate, i'm not interested in arguing the philosophy or ethics of the points with you; my point was about the potentiality for compromise with some.
i'm going to assume there weren't any additional details you wanted.
well you are the one who suggested that we should be working on a grand "compromise" and "long term plan" for abortion. i think that fundamentally misunderstands the issue itself. but if you'd rather not talk about the issue itself fine. I think you're underestimating how big the secular pro-life group is, millennials trend to hold stronger pro-life views than their parents at the moment (http://www.gallup.com/poll/126581/Generational-Differences-Abortion-Narrow.aspx) There's a significant group of people who see this as a humanist, ends related issue rather than a religious one. those people are mostly incoherent. i have no idea what it even means to be a secular pro-lifer. it sounds like some kind of suburban naivete. millennials who have never seen a homeless person. It doesn't mean that the position doesn't exist or that it is not logical. I can not be religious but still think murder is a bad thing, why would abortion be any different in terms of the variety of opinions possible. Its good to know that only religious people can truly care for the life of a fetus.... Come on man you are better than this. I personally am against the abortion of a child i would be the father to. Im not a fan of abortion since there are a multitude of options aside from abortion for many people but I also dont believe its my place to tell people what to do about their pregnancies. Im not about to go tell people they cant have an abortion just because i would want to father a child i create. Big difference there and way too nuanced for a poll that would ask "are you against abortion?" And please note my position isnt religious. Its just that at this point in my life i would be happy being a father and eventually do want kids. Now there is more nuance to this position. I couldnt handle raising a child with a serious health issue or mental deficiency so if i had the knowledge this was the case i would personally accept abortion as an outcome for the fetus. At some point though even medical science says a fetus has some level of consciousness and brain activity so at that point humanity takes over and i would have serious concerns about aborting a fetus when that point arrives. But still imo its a parents personal decision and so i leave it with them regardless of my thoughts on the matter. Even saying you're against the abortion of your offspring is pretty contentious in its own right. Where do you stand on paternal rights in the abortion, provided the mother of your future child can't come to agreement? Being that it isn't the father's body its not really a discussion. This. If I wanted a child and was prepared to do all the spending and raising and paying and so forth and wouldn't ask for a penny in child support and the woman I got pregnant went "nope, killing it" I'd be mad. And I'd have a right to be mad. That would really suck. But at no point would I have the right to demand that she give me her body to use as an incubator for my child. Are you not aware that once you have inseminated a womans body it now half belongs to you ?
Neither you nor the woman owns that child. Both you and her are beholden and responsible for that child--but neither of you own anything.
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United States44256 Posts
Watching the second half of the debate now. Hillary is talking about Donald being a sexual predator and he's nodding along with every step of the way. His body language coach must be fucking crying into a bottle of whisky.
Donald thinks belittling women makes him bigger. *nods*He goes after their dignity, their self-worth *nods*and I don't think there is a woman anywhere that doesn't know what that feels like. *nods*So we now know what Donald thinks and what he says and how he acts toward women. *nods*That's who Donald is. *nods*
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On October 21 2016 05:56 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2016 05:43 ticklishmusic wrote:Trump used his foundation to fund guerrilla filmmaker James O’KeefeIn Wednesday’s presidential debate, Donald Trump claimed that new videos proved that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama had “hired people” and “paid them $1,500” to “be violent, cause fights, [and] do bad things” at Trump rallies. He was referring to videos released this week by conservative activist James O’Keefe that purport to show pro-Clinton activists boasting of their efforts to bait Trump supporters into violent acts. The videos offer no evidence that Clinton or Obama were aware of or behind the alleged dirty tricks. Still, Trump claimed the videos exposed that a violence at a March Chicago rally was a “criminal act” and that it “was now all on tape started by her.” Trump neglected, however, to mention his own connection to the videos, released by James O’Keefe and his Project Veritas tax-exempt group. According to a list of charitable donations made by Trump‘s controversial foundation (provided to the Washington Post in April by Trump’s campaign), on May 13, 2015, it gave $10,000 to Project Veritas. ![[image loading]](https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*cSyrsB3xr39zqRodc_8f3Q.jpeg) Trump, who claimed in the same debate that Hillary Clinton “shouldn’t be allowed to run” for president “based on what she did with e-mails and so many other things,” was funding a convicted criminal. O’Keefe was sentenced to three years of probation, 100 hours of community service, and a $1,500 fine in 2010 after taking a plea bargain following a botched “sting” attempt at the office of then-Sen. Mary Landrieu. What’s more, there is a great deal of reason to be skeptical of the videos themselves. O’Keefe has a long history of selectively editing videos to present a false impression to the viewer. His most famous video, an attack on the now-defunct community organizing group ACORN, supposedly showed employees agreeing to help him smuggle underage prostitutes into the country. It turned out the employees later had called the police and O’Keefe eventually paid $100,000 in a settlement after being sued for surreptitious recording of someone’s voice and image. Even Glenn Beck’s conservative The Blaze slammed O’Keefe over a selectively-edited video purporting to show unethical action on the part of National Public Radio executives, faulting “ editing tactics that seem designed to intentionally lie or mislead about the material being presented. Though the latest video too has been criticized for selective editing by at least one of its subjects, two of the staffers resigned after its release. SourceCan't make these things up. Project Veritas is 501(c)(3), if people are finding a scandal here it's that if someone doesn't like Trump and doesn't like O'Keefe, then they must viciously dislike the combination.
If people have trouble with the product of investigative journalism, and try to shoot down the messenger, that tells you something. I think election rules should be applied fairly across the board, and you now have video evidence of a superpac coordinating closely with the campaign. Also, it's valuable to know the unethical yet likely legal provoking of Trump supporters by trained Hillary supporters going on behind the scenes.
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On October 21 2016 06:27 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2016 05:56 oBlade wrote:On October 21 2016 05:43 ticklishmusic wrote:Trump used his foundation to fund guerrilla filmmaker James O’KeefeIn Wednesday’s presidential debate, Donald Trump claimed that new videos proved that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama had “hired people” and “paid them $1,500” to “be violent, cause fights, [and] do bad things” at Trump rallies. He was referring to videos released this week by conservative activist James O’Keefe that purport to show pro-Clinton activists boasting of their efforts to bait Trump supporters into violent acts. The videos offer no evidence that Clinton or Obama were aware of or behind the alleged dirty tricks. Still, Trump claimed the videos exposed that a violence at a March Chicago rally was a “criminal act” and that it “was now all on tape started by her.” Trump neglected, however, to mention his own connection to the videos, released by James O’Keefe and his Project Veritas tax-exempt group. According to a list of charitable donations made by Trump‘s controversial foundation (provided to the Washington Post in April by Trump’s campaign), on May 13, 2015, it gave $10,000 to Project Veritas. Trump, who claimed in the same debate that Hillary Clinton “shouldn’t be allowed to run” for president “based on what she did with e-mails and so many other things,” was funding a convicted criminal. O’Keefe was sentenced to three years of probation, 100 hours of community service, and a $1,500 fine in 2010 after taking a plea bargain following a botched “sting” attempt at the office of then-Sen. Mary Landrieu. What’s more, there is a great deal of reason to be skeptical of the videos themselves. O’Keefe has a long history of selectively editing videos to present a false impression to the viewer. His most famous video, an attack on the now-defunct community organizing group ACORN, supposedly showed employees agreeing to help him smuggle underage prostitutes into the country. It turned out the employees later had called the police and O’Keefe eventually paid $100,000 in a settlement after being sued for surreptitious recording of someone’s voice and image. Even Glenn Beck’s conservative The Blaze slammed O’Keefe over a selectively-edited video purporting to show unethical action on the part of National Public Radio executives, faulting “ editing tactics that seem designed to intentionally lie or mislead about the material being presented. Though the latest video too has been criticized for selective editing by at least one of its subjects, two of the staffers resigned after its release. SourceCan't make these things up. Project Veritas is 501(c)(3), if people are finding a scandal here it's that if someone doesn't like Trump and doesn't like O'Keefe, then they must viciously dislike the combination. If people have trouble with the product of investigative journalism, and try to shoot down the messenger, that tells you something. I think election rules should be applied fairly across the board, and you now have video evidence of a superpac coordinating closely with the campaign. Also, it's valuable to know the unethical yet likely legal provoking of Trump supporters by trained Hillary supporters going on behind the scenes.
When the messenger has flat out admitted in the past that the truth does not matter if it conflicts with his views it's pretty hard to pay attention to him
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United States44256 Posts
On October 21 2016 06:27 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2016 05:56 oBlade wrote:On October 21 2016 05:43 ticklishmusic wrote:Trump used his foundation to fund guerrilla filmmaker James O’KeefeIn Wednesday’s presidential debate, Donald Trump claimed that new videos proved that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama had “hired people” and “paid them $1,500” to “be violent, cause fights, [and] do bad things” at Trump rallies. He was referring to videos released this week by conservative activist James O’Keefe that purport to show pro-Clinton activists boasting of their efforts to bait Trump supporters into violent acts. The videos offer no evidence that Clinton or Obama were aware of or behind the alleged dirty tricks. Still, Trump claimed the videos exposed that a violence at a March Chicago rally was a “criminal act” and that it “was now all on tape started by her.” Trump neglected, however, to mention his own connection to the videos, released by James O’Keefe and his Project Veritas tax-exempt group. According to a list of charitable donations made by Trump‘s controversial foundation (provided to the Washington Post in April by Trump’s campaign), on May 13, 2015, it gave $10,000 to Project Veritas. Trump, who claimed in the same debate that Hillary Clinton “shouldn’t be allowed to run” for president “based on what she did with e-mails and so many other things,” was funding a convicted criminal. O’Keefe was sentenced to three years of probation, 100 hours of community service, and a $1,500 fine in 2010 after taking a plea bargain following a botched “sting” attempt at the office of then-Sen. Mary Landrieu. What’s more, there is a great deal of reason to be skeptical of the videos themselves. O’Keefe has a long history of selectively editing videos to present a false impression to the viewer. His most famous video, an attack on the now-defunct community organizing group ACORN, supposedly showed employees agreeing to help him smuggle underage prostitutes into the country. It turned out the employees later had called the police and O’Keefe eventually paid $100,000 in a settlement after being sued for surreptitious recording of someone’s voice and image. Even Glenn Beck’s conservative The Blaze slammed O’Keefe over a selectively-edited video purporting to show unethical action on the part of National Public Radio executives, faulting “ editing tactics that seem designed to intentionally lie or mislead about the material being presented. Though the latest video too has been criticized for selective editing by at least one of its subjects, two of the staffers resigned after its release. SourceCan't make these things up. Project Veritas is 501(c)(3), if people are finding a scandal here it's that if someone doesn't like Trump and doesn't like O'Keefe, then they must viciously dislike the combination. If people have trouble with the product of investigative journalism, and try to shoot down the messenger, that tells you something. I think election rules should be applied fairly across the board, and you now have video evidence of a superpac coordinating closely with the campaign. Also, it's valuable to know the unethical yet likely legal provoking of Trump supporters by trained Hillary supporters going on behind the scenes.
You understand that in this case the messenger literally wrote the message, right? This is a guy who makes videos, deletes the audio from them and then dubs in his own audio, putting his words in their mouths.
Don't blame the messenger is an idiom assuming that if you are angered by the contents of a letter you should blame the author, not the messenger. It doesn't apply when the messenger is also the author. You can't write whatever you like, put on a messenger's hat and go "don't blame me, I'm just the messenger". That's not how it works.
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On October 21 2016 06:27 Danglars wrote:
If people have trouble with the product of investigative journalism, and try to shoot down the messenger, that tells you something. I think election rules should be applied fairly across the board, and you now have video evidence of a superpac coordinating closely with the campaign. Also, it's valuable to know the unethical yet likely legal provoking of Trump supporters by trained Hillary supporters going on behind the scenes.
Calling James O'Keefe an investigative journalist is an insult to investigative journalism. There's a difference between muckraking and editing content to imply wrongdoing where there is none.
He has been proven to have edited footage to suit his own narrative, but people still treat his work as truth just because it's convenient for them.
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On October 21 2016 06:27 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2016 05:56 oBlade wrote:On October 21 2016 05:43 ticklishmusic wrote:Trump used his foundation to fund guerrilla filmmaker James O’KeefeIn Wednesday’s presidential debate, Donald Trump claimed that new videos proved that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama had “hired people” and “paid them $1,500” to “be violent, cause fights, [and] do bad things” at Trump rallies. He was referring to videos released this week by conservative activist James O’Keefe that purport to show pro-Clinton activists boasting of their efforts to bait Trump supporters into violent acts. The videos offer no evidence that Clinton or Obama were aware of or behind the alleged dirty tricks. Still, Trump claimed the videos exposed that a violence at a March Chicago rally was a “criminal act” and that it “was now all on tape started by her.” Trump neglected, however, to mention his own connection to the videos, released by James O’Keefe and his Project Veritas tax-exempt group. According to a list of charitable donations made by Trump‘s controversial foundation (provided to the Washington Post in April by Trump’s campaign), on May 13, 2015, it gave $10,000 to Project Veritas. Trump, who claimed in the same debate that Hillary Clinton “shouldn’t be allowed to run” for president “based on what she did with e-mails and so many other things,” was funding a convicted criminal. O’Keefe was sentenced to three years of probation, 100 hours of community service, and a $1,500 fine in 2010 after taking a plea bargain following a botched “sting” attempt at the office of then-Sen. Mary Landrieu. What’s more, there is a great deal of reason to be skeptical of the videos themselves. O’Keefe has a long history of selectively editing videos to present a false impression to the viewer. His most famous video, an attack on the now-defunct community organizing group ACORN, supposedly showed employees agreeing to help him smuggle underage prostitutes into the country. It turned out the employees later had called the police and O’Keefe eventually paid $100,000 in a settlement after being sued for surreptitious recording of someone’s voice and image. Even Glenn Beck’s conservative The Blaze slammed O’Keefe over a selectively-edited video purporting to show unethical action on the part of National Public Radio executives, faulting “ editing tactics that seem designed to intentionally lie or mislead about the material being presented. Though the latest video too has been criticized for selective editing by at least one of its subjects, two of the staffers resigned after its release. SourceCan't make these things up. Project Veritas is 501(c)(3), if people are finding a scandal here it's that if someone doesn't like Trump and doesn't like O'Keefe, then they must viciously dislike the combination. If people have trouble with the product of investigative journalism, and try to shoot down the messenger, that tells you something. I think election rules should be applied fairly across the board, and you now have video evidence of a superpac coordinating closely with the campaign. Also, it's valuable to know the unethical yet likely legal provoking of Trump supporters by trained Hillary supporters going on behind the scenes.
I don't think doctoring and editing footage classifies you as an investigative journalist. Hard to not shoot down the messenger when he's already been convicted of doing the same thing in the past, so why should anyone with reasonable doubt believe him this time when he has financial ties?
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On October 21 2016 06:15 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2016 06:08 Rebs wrote:On October 21 2016 06:08 Rebs wrote:On October 21 2016 06:06 KwarK wrote:On October 21 2016 06:02 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 21 2016 05:59 Danglars wrote:On October 21 2016 04:40 ZeromuS wrote:On October 21 2016 04:27 Trainrunnef wrote:On October 21 2016 04:17 IgnE wrote:On October 21 2016 03:55 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
I think you're underestimating how big the secular pro-life group is, millennials trend to hold stronger pro-life views than their parents at the moment (http://www.gallup.com/poll/126581/Generational-Differences-Abortion-Narrow.aspx)
There's a significant group of people who see this as a humanist, ends related issue rather than a religious one. those people are mostly incoherent. i have no idea what it even means to be a secular pro-lifer. it sounds like some kind of suburban naivete. millennials who have never seen a homeless person. It doesn't mean that the position doesn't exist or that it is not logical. I can not be religious but still think murder is a bad thing, why would abortion be any different in terms of the variety of opinions possible. Its good to know that only religious people can truly care for the life of a fetus.... Come on man you are better than this. I personally am against the abortion of a child i would be the father to. Im not a fan of abortion since there are a multitude of options aside from abortion for many people but I also dont believe its my place to tell people what to do about their pregnancies. Im not about to go tell people they cant have an abortion just because i would want to father a child i create. Big difference there and way too nuanced for a poll that would ask "are you against abortion?" And please note my position isnt religious. Its just that at this point in my life i would be happy being a father and eventually do want kids. Now there is more nuance to this position. I couldnt handle raising a child with a serious health issue or mental deficiency so if i had the knowledge this was the case i would personally accept abortion as an outcome for the fetus. At some point though even medical science says a fetus has some level of consciousness and brain activity so at that point humanity takes over and i would have serious concerns about aborting a fetus when that point arrives. But still imo its a parents personal decision and so i leave it with them regardless of my thoughts on the matter. Even saying you're against the abortion of your offspring is pretty contentious in its own right. Where do you stand on paternal rights in the abortion, provided the mother of your future child can't come to agreement? Being that it isn't the father's body its not really a discussion. This. If I wanted a child and was prepared to do all the spending and raising and paying and so forth and wouldn't ask for a penny in child support and the woman I got pregnant went "nope, killing it" I'd be mad. And I'd have a right to be mad. That would really suck. But at no point would I have the right to demand that she give me her body to use as an incubator for my child. Are you not aware that once you have inseminated a womans body it now half belongs to you ? On October 21 2016 06:07 oBlade wrote:On October 21 2016 06:05 Rebs wrote:On October 21 2016 06:04 oBlade wrote:On October 21 2016 05:57 Rebs wrote:On October 21 2016 05:56 oBlade wrote:On October 21 2016 05:43 ticklishmusic wrote:Drumpf used his foundation to fund guerrilla filmmaker James O’KeefeIn Wednesday’s presidential debate, Donald Drumpf claimed that new videos proved that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama had “hired people” and “paid them $1,500” to “be violent, cause fights, [and] do bad things” at Drumpf rallies. He was referring to videos released this week by conservative activist James O’Keefe that purport to show pro-Clinton activists boasting of their efforts to bait Drumpf supporters into violent acts. The videos offer no evidence that Clinton or Obama were aware of or behind the alleged dirty tricks. Still, Drumpf claimed the videos exposed that a violence at a March Chicago rally was a “criminal act” and that it “was now all on tape started by her.” Drumpf neglected, however, to mention his own connection to the videos, released by James O’Keefe and his Project Veritas tax-exempt group. According to a list of charitable donations made by Drumpf‘s controversial foundation (provided to the Washington Post in April by Drumpf’s campaign), on May 13, 2015, it gave $10,000 to Project Veritas. Drumpf, who claimed in the same debate that Hillary Clinton “shouldn’t be allowed to run” for president “based on what she did with e-mails and so many other things,” was funding a convicted criminal. O’Keefe was sentenced to three years of probation, 100 hours of community service, and a $1,500 fine in 2010 after taking a plea bargain following a botched “sting” attempt at the office of then-Sen. Mary Landrieu. What’s more, there is a great deal of reason to be skeptical of the videos themselves. O’Keefe has a long history of selectively editing videos to present a false impression to the viewer. His most famous video, an attack on the now-defunct community organizing group ACORN, supposedly showed employees agreeing to help him smuggle underage prostitutes into the country. It turned out the employees later had called the police and O’Keefe eventually paid $100,000 in a settlement after being sued for surreptitious recording of someone’s voice and image. Even Glenn Beck’s conservative The Blaze slammed O’Keefe over a selectively-edited video purporting to show unethical action on the part of National Public Radio executives, faulting “ editing tactics that seem designed to intentionally lie or mislead about the material being presented. Though the latest video too has been criticized for selective editing by at least one of its subjects, two of the staffers resigned after its release. SourceCan't make these things up. Project Veritas is 501(c)(3), if people are finding a scandal here it's that if someone doesn't like Drumpf and doesn't like O'Keefe, then they must viciously dislike the combination. So now we are defending O'Keefe to ? Dayemmmm Its hard enough defending the fact that its not despicable enough to ruin peoples lives in the name of Business but also to do it in the name of social activism. Good on you man. Are you talking about the DNC people that resigned? No, I dont think you are quite familiar with O'Keefes full body of work. Thank you for clarifying what you were referring to. \ One word for you. Hopefully it will encourage you to actually research his history. ACORN I gave you to much credit, I thought you were being deliberately obtuse, my apologies for being vague. On October 21 2016 06:08 TheYango wrote:On October 21 2016 06:04 oBlade wrote:
Are you talking about the DNC people that resigned? Personally I was more thinking of the ACORN employee that got fired and had his reputation tarnished because O'Keefe deliberately misrepresented him as being involved in human trafficking. The difference between people who are aware of what they are talking about and those who arent right here. So you must have been mistaken when you characterized me as defending people's lives being destroyed.
Suggesting that its only an issue because people "dislike" someone is defending them. Or atleast thats what it would appear to be.
Otherwise your comment is rather meaningless so whats the context ? Or maybe you may have changed your mind now that you are educated on O'keefes less than savoury activities ?
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Norway28877 Posts
she is incredible 
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On October 21 2016 06:33 PhoenixVoid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2016 06:27 Danglars wrote:On October 21 2016 05:56 oBlade wrote:On October 21 2016 05:43 ticklishmusic wrote:Trump used his foundation to fund guerrilla filmmaker James O’KeefeIn Wednesday’s presidential debate, Donald Trump claimed that new videos proved that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama had “hired people” and “paid them $1,500” to “be violent, cause fights, [and] do bad things” at Trump rallies. He was referring to videos released this week by conservative activist James O’Keefe that purport to show pro-Clinton activists boasting of their efforts to bait Trump supporters into violent acts. The videos offer no evidence that Clinton or Obama were aware of or behind the alleged dirty tricks. Still, Trump claimed the videos exposed that a violence at a March Chicago rally was a “criminal act” and that it “was now all on tape started by her.” Trump neglected, however, to mention his own connection to the videos, released by James O’Keefe and his Project Veritas tax-exempt group. According to a list of charitable donations made by Trump‘s controversial foundation (provided to the Washington Post in April by Trump’s campaign), on May 13, 2015, it gave $10,000 to Project Veritas. Trump, who claimed in the same debate that Hillary Clinton “shouldn’t be allowed to run” for president “based on what she did with e-mails and so many other things,” was funding a convicted criminal. O’Keefe was sentenced to three years of probation, 100 hours of community service, and a $1,500 fine in 2010 after taking a plea bargain following a botched “sting” attempt at the office of then-Sen. Mary Landrieu. What’s more, there is a great deal of reason to be skeptical of the videos themselves. O’Keefe has a long history of selectively editing videos to present a false impression to the viewer. His most famous video, an attack on the now-defunct community organizing group ACORN, supposedly showed employees agreeing to help him smuggle underage prostitutes into the country. It turned out the employees later had called the police and O’Keefe eventually paid $100,000 in a settlement after being sued for surreptitious recording of someone’s voice and image. Even Glenn Beck’s conservative The Blaze slammed O’Keefe over a selectively-edited video purporting to show unethical action on the part of National Public Radio executives, faulting “ editing tactics that seem designed to intentionally lie or mislead about the material being presented. Though the latest video too has been criticized for selective editing by at least one of its subjects, two of the staffers resigned after its release. SourceCan't make these things up. Project Veritas is 501(c)(3), if people are finding a scandal here it's that if someone doesn't like Trump and doesn't like O'Keefe, then they must viciously dislike the combination. If people have trouble with the product of investigative journalism, and try to shoot down the messenger, that tells you something. I think election rules should be applied fairly across the board, and you now have video evidence of a superpac coordinating closely with the campaign. Also, it's valuable to know the unethical yet likely legal provoking of Trump supporters by trained Hillary supporters going on behind the scenes. I don't think doctoring and editing footage classifies you as an investigative journalist. Hard to not shoot down the messenger when he's already been convicted of doing the same thing in the past, so why should anyone with reasonable doubt believe him this time when he has financial ties?
In fairness to him, it is possible that his new stuff is 100% legit. But since he's the boy that cried wolf, it doesn't really matter since no one will believe the guy known for spreading misinformation.
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The comments on reddit about the pointless obama email leak have some pretty amazing gems. Though you can never quite tell parody from earnest.
PAY ATTENTION TO THE DATES OF THE EMAILS! Obama "won" the election on 04 November 2008. Yet he's discussing cabinet positions with Podesta et al in October 2008!
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On October 21 2016 06:37 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2016 06:15 oBlade wrote:On October 21 2016 06:08 Rebs wrote:On October 21 2016 06:08 Rebs wrote:On October 21 2016 06:06 KwarK wrote:On October 21 2016 06:02 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 21 2016 05:59 Danglars wrote:On October 21 2016 04:40 ZeromuS wrote:On October 21 2016 04:27 Trainrunnef wrote:On October 21 2016 04:17 IgnE wrote:
[quote]
those people are mostly incoherent. i have no idea what it even means to be a secular pro-lifer. it sounds like some kind of suburban naivete. millennials who have never seen a homeless person.
It doesn't mean that the position doesn't exist or that it is not logical. I can not be religious but still think murder is a bad thing, why would abortion be any different in terms of the variety of opinions possible. Its good to know that only religious people can truly care for the life of a fetus.... Come on man you are better than this. I personally am against the abortion of a child i would be the father to. Im not a fan of abortion since there are a multitude of options aside from abortion for many people but I also dont believe its my place to tell people what to do about their pregnancies. Im not about to go tell people they cant have an abortion just because i would want to father a child i create. Big difference there and way too nuanced for a poll that would ask "are you against abortion?" And please note my position isnt religious. Its just that at this point in my life i would be happy being a father and eventually do want kids. Now there is more nuance to this position. I couldnt handle raising a child with a serious health issue or mental deficiency so if i had the knowledge this was the case i would personally accept abortion as an outcome for the fetus. At some point though even medical science says a fetus has some level of consciousness and brain activity so at that point humanity takes over and i would have serious concerns about aborting a fetus when that point arrives. But still imo its a parents personal decision and so i leave it with them regardless of my thoughts on the matter. Even saying you're against the abortion of your offspring is pretty contentious in its own right. Where do you stand on paternal rights in the abortion, provided the mother of your future child can't come to agreement? Being that it isn't the father's body its not really a discussion. This. If I wanted a child and was prepared to do all the spending and raising and paying and so forth and wouldn't ask for a penny in child support and the woman I got pregnant went "nope, killing it" I'd be mad. And I'd have a right to be mad. That would really suck. But at no point would I have the right to demand that she give me her body to use as an incubator for my child. Are you not aware that once you have inseminated a womans body it now half belongs to you ? On October 21 2016 06:07 oBlade wrote:On October 21 2016 06:05 Rebs wrote:On October 21 2016 06:04 oBlade wrote:On October 21 2016 05:57 Rebs wrote:On October 21 2016 05:56 oBlade wrote:On October 21 2016 05:43 ticklishmusic wrote:Drumpf used his foundation to fund guerrilla filmmaker James O’KeefeIn Wednesday’s presidential debate, Donald Drumpf claimed that new videos proved that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama had “hired people” and “paid them $1,500” to “be violent, cause fights, [and] do bad things” at Drumpf rallies. He was referring to videos released this week by conservative activist James O’Keefe that purport to show pro-Clinton activists boasting of their efforts to bait Drumpf supporters into violent acts. The videos offer no evidence that Clinton or Obama were aware of or behind the alleged dirty tricks. Still, Drumpf claimed the videos exposed that a violence at a March Chicago rally was a “criminal act” and that it “was now all on tape started by her.” Drumpf neglected, however, to mention his own connection to the videos, released by James O’Keefe and his Project Veritas tax-exempt group. According to a list of charitable donations made by Drumpf‘s controversial foundation (provided to the Washington Post in April by Drumpf’s campaign), on May 13, 2015, it gave $10,000 to Project Veritas. Drumpf, who claimed in the same debate that Hillary Clinton “shouldn’t be allowed to run” for president “based on what she did with e-mails and so many other things,” was funding a convicted criminal. O’Keefe was sentenced to three years of probation, 100 hours of community service, and a $1,500 fine in 2010 after taking a plea bargain following a botched “sting” attempt at the office of then-Sen. Mary Landrieu. What’s more, there is a great deal of reason to be skeptical of the videos themselves. O’Keefe has a long history of selectively editing videos to present a false impression to the viewer. His most famous video, an attack on the now-defunct community organizing group ACORN, supposedly showed employees agreeing to help him smuggle underage prostitutes into the country. It turned out the employees later had called the police and O’Keefe eventually paid $100,000 in a settlement after being sued for surreptitious recording of someone’s voice and image. Even Glenn Beck’s conservative The Blaze slammed O’Keefe over a selectively-edited video purporting to show unethical action on the part of National Public Radio executives, faulting “ editing tactics that seem designed to intentionally lie or mislead about the material being presented. Though the latest video too has been criticized for selective editing by at least one of its subjects, two of the staffers resigned after its release. SourceCan't make these things up. Project Veritas is 501(c)(3), if people are finding a scandal here it's that if someone doesn't like Drumpf and doesn't like O'Keefe, then they must viciously dislike the combination. So now we are defending O'Keefe to ? Dayemmmm Its hard enough defending the fact that its not despicable enough to ruin peoples lives in the name of Business but also to do it in the name of social activism. Good on you man. Are you talking about the DNC people that resigned? No, I dont think you are quite familiar with O'Keefes full body of work. Thank you for clarifying what you were referring to. \ One word for you. Hopefully it will encourage you to actually research his history. ACORN I gave you to much credit, I thought you were being deliberately obtuse, my apologies for being vague. On October 21 2016 06:08 TheYango wrote:On October 21 2016 06:04 oBlade wrote:
Are you talking about the DNC people that resigned? Personally I was more thinking of the ACORN employee that got fired and had his reputation tarnished because O'Keefe deliberately misrepresented him as being involved in human trafficking. The difference between people who are aware of what they are talking about and those who arent right here. So you must have been mistaken when you characterized me as defending people's lives being destroyed. Suggesting that its only an issue because people "dislike" someone is defending them. Or atleast thats what it would appear to be. Otherwise your comment is rather meaningless so whats the context ? Or maybe you may have changed your mind now that you are educated on O'keefes less than savoury activities ?
...Usually if you dislike someone, normal people associate that with reasons like who the person is and what things they've done. Changed my mind about what? Do you watch Mike Tyson Mysteries, and does that mean you support rape?
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On October 21 2016 06:39 Logo wrote:The comments on reddit about the pointless obama email leak have some pretty amazing gems. Though you can never quite tell parody from earnest. Show nested quote +
PAY ATTENTION TO THE DATES OF THE EMAILS! Obama "won" the election on 04 November 2008. Yet he's discussing cabinet positions with Podesta et al in October 2008!
Reddit is a special nest of bias and conspiracy for pretty much any side you could want.
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On October 21 2016 06:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:she is incredible
Holy fuck.
How many uhs, how many pauses? Less than 10?
That delivery.
Maybe she just isn't worn out on giving speeches or tired or whatever. But she's speaking directly from the heart and killing it. I thought I'd give the speech a go without really being interested and suddenly 2 minutes are gone and I'm drawn in, 6 minutes are gone and I'm listening to this woman like she's in the room speaking to me.
She is a damn good orator.
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On October 21 2016 07:04 Probe1 wrote:Holy fuck. How many uhs, how many pauses? Less than 10? That delivery. Maybe she just isn't worn out on giving speeches or tired or whatever. But she's speaking directly from the heart and killing it. I thought I'd give the speech a go without really being interested and suddenly 2 minutes are gone and I'm drawn in, 6 minutes are gone and I'm listening to this woman like she's in the room speaking to me. She is a damn good orator.
I remember vintage Obama being pretty amazing orator as well before he aged 30 years in 8 years of time, so you may be on to something with not being worn out. A lot of it probably has to do with time available to memorize speeches though.
Doesn't change that Michelle is probably better than Obama was though.
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If things don't work out with Barack give me a call Michelle
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On October 21 2016 07:28 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2016 07:04 Probe1 wrote:On October 21 2016 06:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:she is incredible Holy fuck. How many uhs, how many pauses? Less than 10? That delivery. Maybe she just isn't worn out on giving speeches or tired or whatever. But she's speaking directly from the heart and killing it. I thought I'd give the speech a go without really being interested and suddenly 2 minutes are gone and I'm drawn in, 6 minutes are gone and I'm listening to this woman like she's in the room speaking to me. She is a damn good orator. I remember vintage Obama being pretty amazing orator as well before he aged 30 years in 8 years of time, so you may be on to something with not being worn out. A lot of it probably has to do with time available to memorize speeches though. Doesn't change that Michelle is probably better than Obama was though.
![[image loading]](http://images.politico.com/global/news/101107_obama_somber_reut_328.jpg)
Well, you see, you really have to, you have to think about the, the context, of, of the situation. Vintage Obama, is just like, well, any other Obama, But, the big difference, the difference that really matters, is that, just because things worked before, doesn't mean it works now. Things evolve, it changes. It starts off, and everything has to start somewhere, it starts off, like all new things, like a spark, it bursts to life, like an untamed flame. But just because that flame does not burn, doesn't burn as bright, don't you dare think, it doesn't burn as fiercely. Vintage Obama, he might have had the comfort of youth. But present Obama, well, he comes with, he comes with the confidence of experience. Change happens, change is what was promised, and its change that he has given, a change you can believe in.
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On October 21 2016 06:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:she is incredible
I actually dislike her few last speeches, they feel like forced emotions to me. Obama is a great orator.
On October 21 2016 07:04 Probe1 wrote:Holy fuck. How many uhs, how many pauses? Less than 10? That delivery. Maybe she just isn't worn out on giving speeches or tired or whatever. But she's speaking directly from the heart and killing it. I thought I'd give the speech a go without really being interested and suddenly 2 minutes are gone and I'm drawn in, 6 minutes are gone and I'm listening to this woman like she's in the room speaking to me. She is a damn good orator.
Pauses are really important in a speech actually.
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On October 21 2016 06:30 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2016 06:27 Danglars wrote:On October 21 2016 05:56 oBlade wrote:On October 21 2016 05:43 ticklishmusic wrote:Trump used his foundation to fund guerrilla filmmaker James O’KeefeIn Wednesday’s presidential debate, Donald Trump claimed that new videos proved that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama had “hired people” and “paid them $1,500” to “be violent, cause fights, [and] do bad things” at Trump rallies. He was referring to videos released this week by conservative activist James O’Keefe that purport to show pro-Clinton activists boasting of their efforts to bait Trump supporters into violent acts. The videos offer no evidence that Clinton or Obama were aware of or behind the alleged dirty tricks. Still, Trump claimed the videos exposed that a violence at a March Chicago rally was a “criminal act” and that it “was now all on tape started by her.” Trump neglected, however, to mention his own connection to the videos, released by James O’Keefe and his Project Veritas tax-exempt group. According to a list of charitable donations made by Trump‘s controversial foundation (provided to the Washington Post in April by Trump’s campaign), on May 13, 2015, it gave $10,000 to Project Veritas. Trump, who claimed in the same debate that Hillary Clinton “shouldn’t be allowed to run” for president “based on what she did with e-mails and so many other things,” was funding a convicted criminal. O’Keefe was sentenced to three years of probation, 100 hours of community service, and a $1,500 fine in 2010 after taking a plea bargain following a botched “sting” attempt at the office of then-Sen. Mary Landrieu. What’s more, there is a great deal of reason to be skeptical of the videos themselves. O’Keefe has a long history of selectively editing videos to present a false impression to the viewer. His most famous video, an attack on the now-defunct community organizing group ACORN, supposedly showed employees agreeing to help him smuggle underage prostitutes into the country. It turned out the employees later had called the police and O’Keefe eventually paid $100,000 in a settlement after being sued for surreptitious recording of someone’s voice and image. Even Glenn Beck’s conservative The Blaze slammed O’Keefe over a selectively-edited video purporting to show unethical action on the part of National Public Radio executives, faulting “ editing tactics that seem designed to intentionally lie or mislead about the material being presented. Though the latest video too has been criticized for selective editing by at least one of its subjects, two of the staffers resigned after its release. SourceCan't make these things up. Project Veritas is 501(c)(3), if people are finding a scandal here it's that if someone doesn't like Trump and doesn't like O'Keefe, then they must viciously dislike the combination. If people have trouble with the product of investigative journalism, and try to shoot down the messenger, that tells you something. I think election rules should be applied fairly across the board, and you now have video evidence of a superpac coordinating closely with the campaign. Also, it's valuable to know the unethical yet likely legal provoking of Trump supporters by trained Hillary supporters going on behind the scenes. You understand that in this case the messenger literally wrote the message, right? This is a guy who makes videos, deletes the audio from them and then dubs in his own audio, putting his words in their mouths. Don't blame the messenger is an idiom assuming that if you are angered by the contents of a letter you should blame the author, not the messenger. It doesn't apply when the messenger is also the author. You can't write whatever you like, put on a messenger's hat and go "don't blame me, I'm just the messenger". That's not how it works.
He's also released uncut videos in the past to clear up people that assume deceptive editing if it reflects badly on Democratic party officials and various nonprofits & NGOs. But we're way beyond a blind approach to even-handed treatment of illegality, so I'll move on. If the Hillary campaign communicated in ways suggested by these videos and its not some elaborate dub of things they never said, would it concern you in the least? Do you have problems with Hillary superPAC workers training to behave in ways likely to incite violence at Trump rallies? Frankly, with what the Trump campaign Trump has done to Democrats in this election, I'm wondering if anyone would actually have a problem with it if true.
Still hoping ZeromuS can clarify what it means to be against the abortion of a child of whom he's the father. I've only heard the typical pro-choice "woman's body, zero parental rights" arguments thus far.
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EPT
