In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
As far as I know it was Terminator that was really the movie that got people to consider AI ethics in some depth. The Matrix makes for good movie watching but it is ultimately a movie that falls solidly into the realm of science fantasy, not scifi.
That genre demarcation is meaningless.
You might have a point, but nevertheless one uses far more magic than the other to move its plot along.
Star Trek does as well. It is heavily invested in the realm of magic to solve production problems and move plots forward.
Dear god people if you don't know how genre works that's okay, but please don't pretend you do. Intelligent people have spent real time and effort defining genre and have useful things to say about genre conventions.
Incidentally, Science Fiction is stories about epochal change causing new problems and giving new solutions. The Matrix is fundamentally not about AI, but rather about our existence in a platonic cave, so it is fantasy for that reason. Star Trek is about the problems and benefits of a post-consumer exploratory society, and therefore is science fiction. Star Wars is not science fiction because its plot would work just fine as a samurai movie or a Western. (And in fact it borrows conventions from both). The Leftovers or and zombie movie are science fiction, because again they revolve around the beginning of a new era.
Genre is meaningless and based on perspective. I can argue Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless minds is sci-fi and be 100% right and 100% at the same time. If you are going to talk about art in any form, you need to step away from the concept that there are objective truths.
Watched the second half of the NBC forum, which covered Trump, a few idiotic and foolish things, mostly just the standard vagueness of all politicians.
PS I haven't done the writeup on the other thing yet igne, but I will.
On September 08 2016 12:03 IgnE wrote: Whence also Trump and the aesthetics of the cult. As Benjamin says, "All efforts to render politics aesthetic culminate in one thing: war." Trump isn't alone of course. The leftist consensus indulges in the same aesthetics, for, "Only war makes it possible to mobilize all of today's technical resources while maintaining the property system." But those who subscribe to Trumpism seem to me to be totally in thrall to Trump's aesthetic mastery. Electing Trump is to enshrine this aesthetics, and to take literally the phrase, "Fiat ars–pereat mundus," which Trump should have emblazoned on all of his buildings. Just as modern media art forms like reality tv make every audience member a critic by virtue of being expert on "living" per se, it makes Trump the iconic modern artist, making art for art's sake. Those are his credentials for the highest office in the land: an expert on the one-dimensional, monomaniacal, self-delusional, peculiarly American form of "living", or of self-extension.
The underlined above strikes me as being rather harsh. And it's not like Trump would be the first president that we've had who took advantage of a tremendous cult of personality. Both Roosevelts, Kennedy, Reagan, and Obama all fit the bill in the modern era. And in the cases of Kennedy and Obama, very strong arguments can be made that they lacked any sort of real "credentials" to be president at the time of their respective elections.
Edit: And the other thing that bears mentioning is that Trump isn't unique among the previously mentioned presidents in his use of cutting edge media manipulation to boost his popularity.
Reagan for sure, but at least he had the End of History story to buttress the emptiness that was his politics. The End of History tapped into primordial myths of good vs. evil and obscured the Reagan aesthetic. He kind of prefigured the Real World by about a decade as an actor who played himself on the stage of the White House. But imagine Obama on reality tv. He would be terrible at it. He (perhaps reluctantly) represented the aesthetics of the leftist consensus.
Compare for example the titanic struggle between the USA and the USSR with Trump's story about building a wall. One has resemblances to the political; the other is Warhol.
Kennedy was the last real politician we had. The world might end with a whimper but American politics ended with a bang in Dallas.
Are you sure that you're not this guy?
But back to Trump. I very much disagree with the proposition that he's a vacuous candidate. As much as I enjoy his aesthetic (most of the time, anyway), what I really like about him are his policies. And I'm not alone in this regard. The reason Trump wiped the floor with the republican field during the nomination was because of his stated policies -- immigration above all.
There's an article that was authored by an anonymous conservative intellectual that is a hot topic in conservative circles right now. It more eloquently describes many of the things that I have articulated about the present state of conservatism and the republican party over the past couple of years. The article essentially is a massive and damning indictment of the conservative movement -- and particularly anyone who is part of the #nevertrump crowd. But the author also talks about the Trump's substance on the critical issues of immigration, trade, and war/foreign policy, while shitting on Trump's aesthetic. Here's some excerpts:
More to the point, what has conservatism achieved lately? In the last 20 years? The answer—which appears to be “nothing”—might seem to lend credence to the plea that “our ideas haven’t been tried.” Except that the same conservatives who generate those ideas are in charge of selling them to the broader public. If their ideas “haven’t been tried,” who is ultimately at fault? The whole enterprise of Conservatism, Inc., reeks of failure. Its sole recent and ongoing success is its own self-preservation. Conservative intellectuals never tire of praising “entrepreneurs” and “creative destruction.” Dare to fail! they exhort businessmen. Let the market decide! Except, um, not with respect to us. Or is their true market not the political arena, but the fundraising circuit?
....
Yes, Trump is worse than imperfect. So what? We can lament until we choke the lack of a great statesman to address the fundamental issues of our time—or, more importantly, to connect them. Since Pat Buchanan’s three failures, occasionally a candidate arose who saw one piece: Dick Gephardt on trade, Ron Paul on war, Tom Tancredo on immigration. Yet, among recent political figures—great statesmen, dangerous demagogues, and mewling gnats alike—only Trump-the-alleged-buffoon not merely saw all three and their essential connectivity, but was able to win on them. The alleged buffoon is thus more prudent—more practically wise—than all of our wise-and-good who so bitterly oppose him. This should embarrass them. That their failures instead embolden them is only further proof of their foolishness and hubris.
Which they self-laud as “consistency”—adherence to “conservative principle,” defined by the 1980 campaign and the household gods of reigning conservative think-tanks. A higher consistency in the service of the national interest apparently eludes them. When America possessed a vast, empty continent and explosively growing industry, high immigration was arguably good policy. (Arguably: Ben Franklin would disagree.) It hasn’t made sense since World War I. Free trade was unquestionably a great boon to the American worker in the decades after World War II. We long ago passed the point of diminishing returns. The Gulf War of 1991 was a strategic victory for American interests. No conflict since then has been. Conservatives either can’t see this—or, worse, those who can nonetheless treat the only political leader to mount a serious challenge to the status quo (more immigration, more trade, more war) as a unique evil.
Trump’s vulgarity is in fact a godsend to the conservatives. It allows them to hang their public opposition on his obvious shortcomings and to ignore or downplay his far greater strengths, which should be even more obvious but in corrupt times can be deliberately obscured by constant references to his faults. That the Left would make the campaign all about the latter is to be expected. Why would the Right? Some—a few—are no doubt sincere in their belief that the man is simply unfit for high office. David Frum, who has always been an immigration skeptic and is a convert to the less-war position, is sincere when he says that, even though he agrees with much of Trump’s agenda, he cannot stomach Trump. But for most of the other #NeverTrumpers, is it just a coincidence that they also happen to favor Invade the World, Invite the World?
Another question JAG raised without provoking any serious attempt at refutation was whether, in corrupt times, it took a … let’s say ... “loudmouth” to rise above the din of The Megaphone. We, or I, speculated: “yes.” Suppose there had arisen some statesman of high character—dignified, articulate, experienced, knowledgeable—the exact opposite of everything the conservatives claim to hate about Trump. Could this hypothetical paragon have won on Trump’s same issues? Would the conservatives have supported him? I would have—even had he been a Democrat.
Back on planet earth, that flight of fancy at least addresses what to do now. The answer to the subsidiary question—will it work?—is much less clear. By “it” I mean Trumpism, broadly defined as secure borders, economic nationalism, and America-first foreign policy. We Americans have chosen, in our foolishness, to disunite the country through stupid immigration, economic, and foreign policies. The level of unity America enjoyed before the bipartisan junta took over can never be restored.
But we can probably do better than we are doing now. First, stop digging. No more importing poverty, crime, and alien cultures. We have made institutions, by leftist design, not merely abysmal at assimilation but abhorrent of the concept. We should try to fix that, but given the Left’s iron grip on every school and cultural center, that’s like trying to bring democracy to Russia. A worthy goal, perhaps, but temper your hopes—and don’t invest time and resources unrealistically.
By contrast, simply building a wall and enforcing immigration law will help enormously, by cutting off the flood of newcomers that perpetuates ethnic separatism and by incentivizing the English language and American norms in the workplace. These policies will have the added benefit of aligning the economic interests of, and (we may hope) fostering solidarity among, the working, lower middle, and middle classes of all races and ethnicities. The same can be said for Trumpian trade policies and anti-globalization instincts. Who cares if productivity numbers tick down, or if our already somnambulant GDP sinks a bit further into its pillow? Nearly all the gains of the last 20 years have accrued to the junta anyway. It would, at this point, be better for the nation to divide up more equitably a slightly smaller pie than to add one extra slice—only to ensure that it and eight of the other nine go first to the government and its rentiers, and the rest to the same four industries and 200 families.
Will this work? Ask a pessimist, get a pessimistic answer. So don’t ask. Ask instead: is it worth trying? Is it better than the alternative? If you can’t say, forthrightly, “yes,” you are either part of the junta, a fool, or a conservative intellectual.
Perhaps if Trump was some dignified statesman of high character you would have a point.
Now, now. I don't think anyone can say that only "dignified statesmen" have substantive policies. The uncouth can certainly have them, too.
There is definitely something of the political in the article you've posted here, unlike the misdirecting emptiness of the Third Way, devoid of politics by virtue of overwhelming consensus. So Trump is maybe tapping into the same populist urge to "change the property relations" as Benjamin would put it.
Comparing Trump and Clinton, it should be pretty clear that Trump is the one proposing the more radical changes to the current "property relations." Now there's no doubt that he isn't going as far as our socialist/Marxist brethren (or others) would like, but his proposals are definitely more upsetting to the current world order than Hillary's.
But how is he doing it? By bringing l'art pour l'art in the vein of the Kardashians to the Presidential election. I'm not convinced he even fully understands it himself. He's entirely within the domain of habit. That's why he needed new handlers. That's why to even write the article you've posted you have to grant Trump, the image, a solidity that it doesn't possess. The only constant is the Trump aesthetic itself, and it is that which makes belief in all things Trump possible.
Yes, Trump is using his image as a means to an end. But I think that the important breakthrough that we're having is that Trump clearly has a political end in mind. So to use your terminology, Trump is not strictly a case of "art for art's sake."
I guess the difference between you and me is that I think if Trump were elected he'd essentially be an ineffectual twat. I don't think there is anything deep inside Trump beyond art for art's sake. An elected Trump is a Trump who goes on publicity tours for four years until he's thrown out of office while the "junta" runs the country.
and to quote myself in a double sense, that is why i think you might have had a point if trump were a person of "high character", someone with a contemplative air. someone who could at least be a self-conscious warhol instead of the perfectly habitual product and producer of the self-aggrandizing american aesthetic
You could be right. I have freely admitted that a vote for Trump is a roll of the dice.
you know the more i think about it, isn't james goldsmith the dignified version of trump? and doesn't it seem likely that the fascistic impulse in trumpism wouldn't be present in a goldsmith campaign? why is this? isn't it because trump is the pure aestheticization of politics? it's possible that the reason we have such shitty candidates is that anyone whose "political" raison d'etre is NOT aesthetics is not a "viable" candidate in the first place.
On September 09 2016 02:34 zlefin wrote: huh, sad that there are apparently so many people who thought that article by that unnamed conservative is anything other than drek.
Given the discussion over the past couple of pages, it should be obvious that you need to reconsider that opinion.
I'll give the article a full read after work. Any discussion of where the conservative movement went wrong isn't complete without GHWB/GWB and the political impact of elected tea party members.
I'm sympathetic to the appeal of putting in office a guy that bats .100 knowing he has a shot at some biggies for conservatives: border security, building back up the military, tax policy, the politics of acceptable discourse. Who knows how hard he'll push against opposition or which advisors he'll listen to--if any.
Author goes way too far on "all the rest were more of the same." No way. He does a decent job hitting on the problem of nevertrumpers but could do better on the issue of academic conservatives focusing on interparty disagreements instead of advancing the fundamentals.
Michael Morell, a former acting CIA director who was President George W. Bush's briefer and is now a Hillary Clinton supporter, said Trump's comments about his briefing were extraordinary.
"This is first time that I can remember a candidate for president doing a readout from an intelligence briefing, and it's the first time a candidate has politicized their intelligence briefing. Both of those are highly inappropriate and crossed a long standing red line respected by both parties," he said.
"To me this is just the most recent example that underscores that this guy is unfit to be commander in chief," Morell continued.
"His comments show that he's got no understanding of how intelligence works. Intelligence officers do not make policy recommendations. It's not their job and anyone running for president should know that. The people who briefed him, I'm pretty sure were career analysts — senior intel professionals. There is no way that they would in any way signal displeasure with the policies of the president."
I wonder if "the drone was in danger" will be a valid reason to escalate to deadly force.
That said, this could honestly be a significant improvement-guaranteed recording of actions and less emotionally charged actions with fewer personal concerns.
There are some significant engineering problems with arming drones that are not freaking huge, so I am not that concerned. The only way they call one of these is if there is also a swat team at the scene.
I wonder if "the drone was in danger" will be a valid reason to escalate to deadly force.
That said, this could honestly be a significant improvement-guaranteed recording of actions and less emotionally charged actions with fewer personal concerns.
That might be pie in the sky techno-love, though.
According to the article they aren't allowed to use lethal weapons on it. Also mentioned something regarding warrants. I was hoping to replace helicopters with these would be a logical choice. A drone, excluding any armament you may want costs 1/10 or less of a helicopter. The problem of course being reception and potential of hijacking them digitally.
They will never replace helicopters. Their ability to stay airborne is limited by battery life and they don’t provide the same amount of information to the user. They will have roles, but police use helicopters for things that drones can’t do, like cover huge areas.
I wonder if "the drone was in danger" will be a valid reason to escalate to deadly force.
That said, this could honestly be a significant improvement-guaranteed recording of actions and less emotionally charged actions with fewer personal concerns.
That might be pie in the sky techno-love, though.
According to the article they aren't allowed to use lethal weapons on it. Also mentioned something regarding warrants. I was hoping to replace helicopters with these would be a logical choice. A drone, excluding any armament you may want costs 1/10 or less of a helicopter. The problem of course being reception and potential of hijacking them digitally.
1/10? It's gotta be SO much less than that. Fuel, maintenance, everything.
Not to mention the benefit of selling a helicopter. Are there any situations where we would expect a helicopter to be necessary in place of a drone?
On September 09 2016 05:30 Plansix wrote: They will never replace helicopters. Their ability to stay airborne is limited by battery life and they don’t provide the same amount of information to the user. They will have roles, but police use helicopters for things that drones can’t do, like cover huge areas.
Plus they last longer.
This sounds more like issues with drones being used beyond their designed purpose. It's not like we couldn't make a drone with 24 hours of life if we wanted to. High speed, larger drones with more energy should all be possible. Then again, I know jack shit about drones.
Hillary Clinton’s advisers are talking to Donald J. Trump’s ghostwriter of “The Art of the Deal,” seeking insights about Mr. Trump’s deepest insecurities as they devise strategies to needle and undermine him in four weeks at the first presidential debate, the most anticipated in a generation.
Her team is also getting advice from psychology experts to help create a personality profile of Mr. Trump to gauge how he may respond to attacks and deal with a woman as his sole adversary on the debate stage.
They are undertaking a forensic-style analysis of Mr. Trump’s performances in the Republican primary debates, cataloging strengths and weaknesses as well as trigger points that caused him to lash out in less-than-presidential ways.
[...]
The Clinton camp believes that Mr. Trump is most insecure about his intelligence, his net worth and his image as a successful businessman, and those are the areas they are working with Mrs. Clinton to target.
Hillary Clinton’s advisers are talking to Donald J. Trump’s ghostwriter of “The Art of the Deal,” seeking insights about Mr. Trump’s deepest insecurities as they devise strategies to needle and undermine him in four weeks at the first presidential debate, the most anticipated in a generation.
Her team is also getting advice from psychology experts to help create a personality profile of Mr. Trump to gauge how he may respond to attacks and deal with a woman as his sole adversary on the debate stage.
They are undertaking a forensic-style analysis of Mr. Trump’s performances in the Republican primary debates, cataloging strengths and weaknesses as well as trigger points that caused him to lash out in less-than-presidential ways.
[...]
The Clinton camp believes that Mr. Trump is most insecure about his intelligence, his net worth and his image as a successful businessman, and those are the areas they are working with Mrs. Clinton to target.
On September 09 2016 05:24 Plansix wrote: There are some significant engineering problems with arming drones that are not freaking huge, so I am not that concerned. The only way they call one of these is if there is also a swat team at the scene.
Mind providing an explanation?
I had a university project to design a self levelling platform and securing mechanism for UAV's. UAV's with a rotor diameter of 50-70cm weighing between 10-25lbs, could easily maneuver with 5-15lb payloads in 40km/hr winds.
In terms of the engineering side of things, they are very stable, it has a stable signal, and it had the payload needed to mount remotely controlled firearms and such. From a practical point of view (them getting shot down and potentially dangerous items could be stolen from them, etc.) is a different matter.
Hillary Clinton’s advisers are talking to Donald J. Trump’s ghostwriter of “The Art of the Deal,” seeking insights about Mr. Trump’s deepest insecurities as they devise strategies to needle and undermine him in four weeks at the first presidential debate, the most anticipated in a generation.
Her team is also getting advice from psychology experts to help create a personality profile of Mr. Trump to gauge how he may respond to attacks and deal with a woman as his sole adversary on the debate stage.
They are undertaking a forensic-style analysis of Mr. Trump’s performances in the Republican primary debates, cataloging strengths and weaknesses as well as trigger points that caused him to lash out in less-than-presidential ways.
[...]
The Clinton camp believes that Mr. Trump is most insecure about his intelligence, his net worth and his image as a successful businessman, and those are the areas they are working with Mrs. Clinton to target.
Hillary Clinton’s advisers are talking to Donald J. Trump’s ghostwriter of “The Art of the Deal,” seeking insights about Mr. Trump’s deepest insecurities as they devise strategies to needle and undermine him in four weeks at the first presidential debate, the most anticipated in a generation.
Her team is also getting advice from psychology experts to help create a personality profile of Mr. Trump to gauge how he may respond to attacks and deal with a woman as his sole adversary on the debate stage.
They are undertaking a forensic-style analysis of Mr. Trump’s performances in the Republican primary debates, cataloging strengths and weaknesses as well as trigger points that caused him to lash out in less-than-presidential ways.
[...]
The Clinton camp believes that Mr. Trump is most insecure about his intelligence, his net worth and his image as a successful businessman, and those are the areas they are working with Mrs. Clinton to target.
Indeed, not only that, it benefits Trump 100%. Let's be real, do you like supporting someone who needs to hire a huge team of experts just to be on a level playing field when having a debate with Trump. Lol.
Also, once again, Hillary is at it with no substance, just Trump attacks... Things that most of his supports have come to terms with, or actually appreciate. I really don't think she can win this election if she doesn't talk about what she can do that Trump can't.
On September 09 2016 04:56 Danglars wrote: Author goes way too far on "all the rest were more of the same." No way. He does a decent job hitting on the problem of nevertrumpers but could do better on the issue of academic conservatives focusing on interparty disagreements instead of advancing the fundamentals.
How so? Keep in mind that the author's focus is on trade policy, immigration policy, and foreign/war policy. How did any of the other republican candidates present a meaningfully different message and platform concerning those issues than the one that Hillary offers now?
Hillary Clinton’s advisers are talking to Donald J. Trump’s ghostwriter of “The Art of the Deal,” seeking insights about Mr. Trump’s deepest insecurities as they devise strategies to needle and undermine him in four weeks at the first presidential debate, the most anticipated in a generation.
Her team is also getting advice from psychology experts to help create a personality profile of Mr. Trump to gauge how he may respond to attacks and deal with a woman as his sole adversary on the debate stage.
They are undertaking a forensic-style analysis of Mr. Trump’s performances in the Republican primary debates, cataloging strengths and weaknesses as well as trigger points that caused him to lash out in less-than-presidential ways.
[...]
The Clinton camp believes that Mr. Trump is most insecure about his intelligence, his net worth and his image as a successful businessman, and those are the areas they are working with Mrs. Clinton to target.
Indeed, not only that, it benefits Trump 100%. Let's be real, do you like supporting someone who needs to hire a huge team of experts just to be on a level playing field when having a debate with Trump. Lol.
Also, once again, Hillary is at it with no substance, just Trump attacks... Things that most of his supports have come to terms with, or actually appreciate. I really don't think she can win this election if she doesn't talk about what she can do that Trump can't.
I like supporting someone who hires a huge team to prepare her for everything throughout a campaign. And I'm questioning your knowledge on Hillary's performance in debates right now.
Hillary Clinton’s advisers are talking to Donald J. Trump’s ghostwriter of “The Art of the Deal,” seeking insights about Mr. Trump’s deepest insecurities as they devise strategies to needle and undermine him in four weeks at the first presidential debate, the most anticipated in a generation.
Her team is also getting advice from psychology experts to help create a personality profile of Mr. Trump to gauge how he may respond to attacks and deal with a woman as his sole adversary on the debate stage.
They are undertaking a forensic-style analysis of Mr. Trump’s performances in the Republican primary debates, cataloging strengths and weaknesses as well as trigger points that caused him to lash out in less-than-presidential ways.
[...]
The Clinton camp believes that Mr. Trump is most insecure about his intelligence, his net worth and his image as a successful businessman, and those are the areas they are working with Mrs. Clinton to target.
Indeed, not only that, it benefits Trump 100%. Let's be real, do you like supporting someone who needs to hire a huge team of experts just to be on a level playing field when having a debate with Trump. Lol.
Also, once again, Hillary is at it with no substance, just Trump attacks... Things that most of his supports have come to terms with, or actually appreciate. I really don't think she can win this election if she doesn't talk about what she can do that Trump can't.
I like supporting someone who hires a huge team to prepare her for everything throughout a campaign. And I'm questioning your knowledge on Hillary's performance in debates right now.
We will kindly have to kindly disagree, as I'd heavily favor Trump in debates.
On the topic of having a huge team, it's about perspective I suppose. Why are you even running for president if you don't have an opinoon on anything yourself, and can't do anything yourself? So while I agree that you need an expert opinion on some things, spending millions of dollars researching the Trump psychology to have a chance in debates is not one of those things.
Meanwhile Trump can try a few nicknames at his rallies, and see which gets the largest reaction, done.