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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
May 06 2016 03:30 GMT
#75041
you'd just watch atrocities take place then? what kind of counterfactual are you working with here
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 06 2016 03:39 GMT
#75042
If there's a War on Coal, it's increasingly clear which side is winning.

Wind turbines and solar panels accounted for more than two-thirds of all new electric generation capacity added to the nation's grid in 2015, according to a recent analysis by the U.S. Department of Energy. The remaining third was largely new power plants fueled by natural gas, which has become cheap and plentiful as a result of hydraulic fracturing.

It was the second straight year U.S. investment in renewable energy projects has outpaced that of fossil fuels. Robust growth is once again predicted for this year.

And while Republican lawmakers in Washington have fought to protect coal-fired power plants, opposing President Barack Obama's efforts to curtail climate-warming carbon emissions, data show their home states are often the ones benefiting most from the nation's accelerating shift to renewable energy.

Leading the way in new wind projects are GOP strongholds Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas, home to some of the leading critics of climate science and renewable energy incentives in Congress. Republican-dominated North Carolina trails only California in new solar farms, thanks largely to pro-renewables polices enacted years ago under a Democratic legislature.

The most dramatic change has been seen in the plummeting cost of emissions-free wind energy, which has declined by two-thirds in the last six years thanks to the availability of cheaper, more efficient turbines. An annual analysis by the investment firm Lazard determined that wind energy is now the lowest-cost energy source, even before federal green-energy tax incentives are factored in.

"We are entering the era of renewables," former Vice President Al Gore said Thursday at the Climate Action 2016 conference in Washington. "It's a very exciting new reality."

Billions of dollars in private equity are going to construct massive new renewables projects, especially in the Sun Belt and Great Plains. Thousands of miles of new high-voltage transmission lines are also under construction to send power from the wind and sun from the sparsely populated areas where it is collected to the urban centers where it's needed.

Even with the surge in new projects, energy from such renewable sources as wind, solar and water accounted for only about a tenth of total U.S. power generation last year.

Still, the U.S. leads the world in wind energy with about 48,800 utility-scale turbines operating across the country, generating enough electricity to power about 20 million homes. By 2030, the Energy Department estimates wind will provide a fifth of the nation's electricity.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 06 2016 03:43 GMT
#75043
On May 06 2016 12:20 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2016 10:37 oneofthem wrote:
here's an in depth balancing of the hillary hawk narrative, especially the part about development being the new focus instead of military

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/06/hillary-clinton-doctrine-obama-interventionist-tough-minded-president/

I mean, all her previous FP interventions (the ones that she helped to spearhead, such as Yugoslavia and Libya) have been pretty disastrous by all accounts. She has a lot of FP experience, and most of it is mired in failures. Even the article you posted (which gives her a tremendous amount more credit than she deserves) gives the general perception of her FP tenure as a generally ineffective one ridden with blunders.

It's too bad that the Republicans are worse so there really isn't much of a choice here.

Yes, the article goes to hilarious lengths to cover for Hillary's unquestionably bad tenure as SoS (and it is even funnier how much the author goes out of his way to cover for Obama), but that's not really the point. The author is merely trying to illustrate what kinds of policy that she'd pursue.

But don't worry. I'm sure that Trump is ready to fill in the gaps.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
May 06 2016 04:52 GMT
#75044
On May 06 2016 12:30 oneofthem wrote:
you'd just watch atrocities take place then? what kind of counterfactual are you working with here

Libya: Overthrew a pretty bad dictator, turned a nation that was stable by comparison into a black hole. So bad that Obama cited it as one of his worst policy decisions in his tenure as presidency (no shit? but maybe his highly experienced SoS should have used her experience to tell him what would happen when you create a power vacuum). Incidentally, that tends to lead to even more death and atrocities than just choosing to do nothing.

Atrocity prevented!

I could go on about how stupid many of the decisions she spearheaded were, as there is a lot to criticize that could be seen even before the fact, but if "preventing atrocities" is the best you can come up with to justify stupid FP then I see no point.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
May 06 2016 05:01 GMT
#75045
the mistake obama admitted to was planning of the aftermath.libya was a pretty long conflict that was already in full blown civil war at the point of the bombings, and there wasnt going to be much stability either way. a more committed intervention might have really helped, but leaving it alone wasnt doing much either
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13924 Posts
May 06 2016 05:06 GMT
#75046
I really hate to bring this up but isn't that the same thing everyone says about iraq? that we never had a strategy for what to do after we disposed the dictator and tried democracy building?
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-06 05:17:01
May 06 2016 05:11 GMT
#75047
Sure, it was in a bad state before the intervention. Perhaps you're trying to say that that justifies making the whole situation worse?

Intervention without a good plan for "the day after" is just adding fuel to the fire. That, at the very least, should be self evident.

On May 06 2016 14:06 Sermokala wrote:
I really hate to bring this up but isn't that the same thing everyone says about iraq? that we never had a strategy for what to do after we disposed the dictator and tried democracy building?

Somewhat different in that rather than doing very little to replace the old government, in Iraq the US just executed the transition poorly.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13924 Posts
May 06 2016 05:16 GMT
#75048
Well yeah as its a pretty public example from just a few years before and the administration didn't learn a lesson from that disaster.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-06 07:31:45
May 06 2016 07:24 GMT
#75049
So Hillary was in California trying to use yesterday to get some Hispanic/Latinx cred and ended up drawing bigger crowds in protest than she did to her event.

A Trump vs Hillary election could be even more devastating than anyone imagined. Both candidates are well on their way to drawing much larger crowds in protest of their candidacy than in support of it. Americans may lose their already waning faith in our electoral system altogether, then it's anyone's guess what comes next.

+ Show Spoiler +


Hillary in LA





Bernie in West Virginia



+ Show Spoiler +
Keep telling yourself she's the stronger candidate in the general


"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
SpiritOfChicago
Profile Joined April 2016
19 Posts
May 06 2016 07:55 GMT
#75050
Murica will get the President they deserve, be it Trump or Clinton and with that, will be going down.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10699 Posts
May 06 2016 08:48 GMT
#75051
On May 06 2016 16:24 GreenHorizons wrote:
So Hillary was in California trying to use yesterday to get some Hispanic/Latinx cred and ended up drawing bigger crowds in protest than she did to her event.

A Trump vs Hillary election could be even more devastating than anyone imagined. Both candidates are well on their way to drawing much larger crowds in protest of their candidacy than in support of it. Americans may lose their already waning faith in our electoral system altogether, then it's anyone's guess what comes next.

+ Show Spoiler +


Hillary in LA

https://twitter.com/jgonz36/status/728450277301362689

https://twitter.com/DOUBTMYPROGRESS/status/728437079470825473

Bernie in West Virginia

https://twitter.com/50pinktoes/status/725194565402136576

+ Show Spoiler +
Keep telling yourself she's the stronger candidate in the general





Uhm, does anyone care if she is the stronger candidate in some nationwide polls? She is the candidate that wins/won the preliminaries, Bernie isn't.
Was this preliminarie truely fair? No, all the little scandals you don't get tired of posting aside, the media coverage alone was clearly ignoring Bernie for way too Long.

The simple fact of the matter is, that Hillary has more votes than Bernie, that there is a very vocal minority(!!!) that can't see this won't change that.


I would have been very happy if Bernie made it, but seriously, stop this crusade, it makes you look horrible.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-06 08:52:46
May 06 2016 08:52 GMT
#75052
On May 06 2016 17:48 Velr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2016 16:24 GreenHorizons wrote:
So Hillary was in California trying to use yesterday to get some Hispanic/Latinx cred and ended up drawing bigger crowds in protest than she did to her event.

A Trump vs Hillary election could be even more devastating than anyone imagined. Both candidates are well on their way to drawing much larger crowds in protest of their candidacy than in support of it. Americans may lose their already waning faith in our electoral system altogether, then it's anyone's guess what comes next.

+ Show Spoiler +


Hillary in LA

https://twitter.com/jgonz36/status/728450277301362689

https://twitter.com/DOUBTMYPROGRESS/status/728437079470825473

Bernie in West Virginia

https://twitter.com/50pinktoes/status/725194565402136576

+ Show Spoiler +
Keep telling yourself she's the stronger candidate in the general





Uhm, does anyone care if she is the stronger candidate in some nationwide polls? She is the candidate that wins/won the preliminaries, Bernie isn't.
Was this preliminarie truely fair? No, all the little scandals you don't get tired of posting aside, the media coverage alone was clearly ignoring Bernie for way too Long.

The simple fact of the matter is, that Hillary has more votes than Bernie, that there is a very vocal minority(!!!) that can't see this won't change that.


I would have been very happy if Bernie made it, but seriously, stop this crusade, it makes you look horrible.



Who would get more Independent/non-Democrat voters, Bernie or Hillary?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-06 09:28:05
May 06 2016 09:02 GMT
#75053
On May 06 2016 17:52 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2016 17:48 Velr wrote:
On May 06 2016 16:24 GreenHorizons wrote:
So Hillary was in California trying to use yesterday to get some Hispanic/Latinx cred and ended up drawing bigger crowds in protest than she did to her event.

A Trump vs Hillary election could be even more devastating than anyone imagined. Both candidates are well on their way to drawing much larger crowds in protest of their candidacy than in support of it. Americans may lose their already waning faith in our electoral system altogether, then it's anyone's guess what comes next.

+ Show Spoiler +


Hillary in LA

https://twitter.com/jgonz36/status/728450277301362689

https://twitter.com/DOUBTMYPROGRESS/status/728437079470825473

Bernie in West Virginia

https://twitter.com/50pinktoes/status/725194565402136576

+ Show Spoiler +
Keep telling yourself she's the stronger candidate in the general





Uhm, does anyone care if she is the stronger candidate in some nationwide polls? She is the candidate that wins/won the preliminaries, Bernie isn't.
Was this preliminarie truely fair? No, all the little scandals you don't get tired of posting aside, the media coverage alone was clearly ignoring Bernie for way too Long.

The simple fact of the matter is, that Hillary has more votes than Bernie, that there is a very vocal minority(!!!) that can't see this won't change that.


I would have been very happy if Bernie made it, but seriously, stop this crusade, it makes you look horrible.

Who would get more Independent/non-Democrat voters, Bernie or Hillary?

Hillary, by far. Bernie would get destroyed by GOP ads on his past statements and positions, on the general tax hikes that would accompany his plans (regardless of the merits of what comes with them), and on his inability to go into the details of his own platform. He's been almost completely spared on these issues by the media and by the Clinton campaign during the primary. He's the Democratic candidate Republicans would love to run against. To quote a previous post of mine:
The third reason is, contrary to what you just implied, that Hillary is a significantly stronger general candidate election than Sanders. There is a reason why GOP operatives have actually been defending Sanders throughout the primary: they believe that he would be far easier to beat in the general election. Sanders and his supporters constantly point to polls showing he tends to fare better against Republican candidates than Hillary, but those polls cannot take into account the onslaught of GOP ads and propaganda on Sanders that would happen between his nomination and the election. He has countless weaknesses that have barely been touched upon in this primary, but on which Republicans would jump the instant he'd be nominated. He's a self-described socialist who spent his honeymoon in the USSR, praised communist regimes, defended bread lines against the American free market, praised the youth in Cuba and China while criticizing the youth in the US, he's apparently never had a steady job before he was 40, his only steady employment has been in government, he used to call himself "clearly anti-capitalistic", he declared he opposed charities (arguing he was in favor of government programs instead, but if you think the GOP will provide context you're delusional), he used to support a government takeover of commercial television stations, he attended a Sandinista rally in Nicaragua in which the crowd chanted “Here, there, everywhere/the Yankee will die”, he used to write stories about women getting raped, etc. etc. I am genuinely having a hard time picturing a candidate the GOP would love to run against more. I know that many of Sanders' policy goals are indeed popular in the US population, but his means to get there are not necessarily (his tax increases would apply to more than the "millionaires and the billionaires"), and the GOP's attacks on him would destroy him. Most people love what is inside of the Affordable care act, but how it was branded by the GOP made it unpopular. And the ACA isn't even socialist. Having Sanders as a candidate would likely significantly hurt the Democrats' chances, both with regards to the White House and in down-ballot races, as many political scientists have argued. He is seen as quite far to the left (and that perception would be magnified tenfold by GOP attacks), and general election voters tend to vote to a considerable extent for people they see as ideologically close to them. And this is all image -- I'm not even getting into his inability to defend the practicality of his platform. He's pretty much only been pushed on this by the NY Daily News, and he crumbled when faced with basic questions on his own plans.

Clinton, meanwhile, has already faced every single attack the GOP can think to dig up on her, and she's still standing. Are her unfavorables higher than Sanders'? Sure, precisely because she's been a GOP target for decades while Sanders has been completely spared. And that's why with the party uniting behind her, her favorable/unfavorable rating will go up instead of down -- GOP attacks will be nothing new, while she'll be able to respond to those attacks on the national stage, and make her case with Obama, Bill, Warren, and hopefully Sanders, defending her. I'm not saying it'll be a cakewalk, but she's much better suited to deal with GOP smears, and attract moderate voters, than Sanders is.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6209 Posts
May 06 2016 09:20 GMT
#75054
The left is already open to attacks like that in Europe. I.e always wanting to raise taxes, being wasteful spenders etc. Just imagine how it will be in the US where the GOP can go all out. I don't think Sanders is as good a candidate in the genral as Hillary. Somebody like Warren maybe could work though.
LemOn
Profile Blog Joined July 2005
United Kingdom8629 Posts
May 06 2016 09:24 GMT
#75055
On May 06 2016 16:55 SpiritOfChicago wrote:
Murica will get the President they deserve, be it Trump or Clinton and with that, will be going down.

How will it be going down with Hillary? Seems like she'll preserve the status quo pretty much.
For selfish reasons it's been great fun, but now I hope she takes it down in the end
Much is the father figure that I miss in my life. Go Daddy! DoC.LemOn, LemOn[5thF]
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44299 Posts
May 06 2016 11:26 GMT
#75056
On May 06 2016 18:24 LemOn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2016 16:55 SpiritOfChicago wrote:
Murica will get the President they deserve, be it Trump or Clinton and with that, will be going down.

How will it be going down with Hillary? Seems like she'll preserve the status quo pretty much.
For selfish reasons it's been great fun, but now I hope she takes it down in the end


Same here. Half the country might dislike President (Hillary) Clinton, but no one is seriously worried about her setting fire to our country and becoming the international embarrassment that a President Trump might cause.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7888 Posts
May 06 2016 11:37 GMT
#75057
On May 06 2016 13:52 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2016 12:30 oneofthem wrote:
you'd just watch atrocities take place then? what kind of counterfactual are you working with here

Libya: Overthrew a pretty bad dictator, turned a nation that was stable by comparison into a black hole. So bad that Obama cited it as one of his worst policy decisions in his tenure as presidency (no shit? but maybe his highly experienced SoS should have used her experience to tell him what would happen when you create a power vacuum). Incidentally, that tends to lead to even more death and atrocities than just choosing to do nothing.

Atrocity prevented!

I could go on about how stupid many of the decisions she spearheaded were, as there is a lot to criticize that could be seen even before the fact, but if "preventing atrocities" is the best you can come up with to justify stupid FP then I see no point.

I don't think the Libya intervention was a great idea, but the narrative is over simplified here.

In Syria the West let the regime massacring the opposition, and now the country is utter chaos, and everybody wonders why we didn't do anything.

In Libya, the West helped militarily the opposition but said opposition was unable to stabilize the country and everybody wonders why we went there.

The situation in both country was not that different. A popular uprising against a dictator with some fundamentalist elements.

I don't think we can blame HC for what appears to be a blunder, because the other alternative was maybe worse. I think both Libya and Syria were doomed, and it looks like of the two, Libya is the one doing better.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
May 06 2016 11:38 GMT
#75058
On May 06 2016 14:11 LegalLord wrote:
Sure, it was in a bad state before the intervention. Perhaps you're trying to say that that justifies making the whole situation worse?

Intervention without a good plan for "the day after" is just adding fuel to the fire. That, at the very least, should be self evident.

Show nested quote +
On May 06 2016 14:06 Sermokala wrote:
I really hate to bring this up but isn't that the same thing everyone says about iraq? that we never had a strategy for what to do after we disposed the dictator and tried democracy building?

Somewhat different in that rather than doing very little to replace the old government, in Iraq the US just executed the transition poorly.

problem is you think hillary was the spearhead for the intervention when it was the younger people fresh out of school. did you even read the article?
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
May 06 2016 12:11 GMT
#75059
On May 06 2016 17:52 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2016 17:48 Velr wrote:
On May 06 2016 16:24 GreenHorizons wrote:
So Hillary was in California trying to use yesterday to get some Hispanic/Latinx cred and ended up drawing bigger crowds in protest than she did to her event.

A Trump vs Hillary election could be even more devastating than anyone imagined. Both candidates are well on their way to drawing much larger crowds in protest of their candidacy than in support of it. Americans may lose their already waning faith in our electoral system altogether, then it's anyone's guess what comes next.

+ Show Spoiler +


Hillary in LA

https://twitter.com/jgonz36/status/728450277301362689

https://twitter.com/DOUBTMYPROGRESS/status/728437079470825473

Bernie in West Virginia

https://twitter.com/50pinktoes/status/725194565402136576

+ Show Spoiler +
Keep telling yourself she's the stronger candidate in the general





Uhm, does anyone care if she is the stronger candidate in some nationwide polls? She is the candidate that wins/won the preliminaries, Bernie isn't.
Was this preliminarie truely fair? No, all the little scandals you don't get tired of posting aside, the media coverage alone was clearly ignoring Bernie for way too Long.

The simple fact of the matter is, that Hillary has more votes than Bernie, that there is a very vocal minority(!!!) that can't see this won't change that.


I would have been very happy if Bernie made it, but seriously, stop this crusade, it makes you look horrible.



Who would get more Independent/non-Democrat voters, Bernie or Hillary?


Irrelevant when Bernie can't win his primary.

Not only this, but 1) almost every national poll shows that Clinton has a significant lead on Trump and 2) national polls aren't reliable at this point in the race anyway. We have no idea how Sanders would fare against Trump after months of general election attacks.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-06 12:29:44
May 06 2016 12:24 GMT
#75060
On May 06 2016 20:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2016 13:52 LegalLord wrote:
On May 06 2016 12:30 oneofthem wrote:
you'd just watch atrocities take place then? what kind of counterfactual are you working with here

Libya: Overthrew a pretty bad dictator, turned a nation that was stable by comparison into a black hole. So bad that Obama cited it as one of his worst policy decisions in his tenure as presidency (no shit? but maybe his highly experienced SoS should have used her experience to tell him what would happen when you create a power vacuum). Incidentally, that tends to lead to even more death and atrocities than just choosing to do nothing.

Atrocity prevented!

I could go on about how stupid many of the decisions she spearheaded were, as there is a lot to criticize that could be seen even before the fact, but if "preventing atrocities" is the best you can come up with to justify stupid FP then I see no point.

I don't think the Libya intervention was a great idea, but the narrative is over simplified here.

In Syria the West let the regime massacring the opposition, and now the country is utter chaos, and everybody wonders why we didn't do anything.

In Libya, the West helped militarily the opposition but said opposition was unable to stabilize the country and everybody wonders why we went there.

The situation in both country was not that different. A popular uprising against a dictator with some fundamentalist elements.

I don't think we can blame HC for what appears to be a blunder, because the other alternative was maybe worse. I think both Libya and Syria were doomed, and it looks like of the two, Libya is the one doing better.

It's mainly in chaos because of Iraq ... Most of ISIS commanders are Iraqis, things would have turned a lot different if it was not for Iraq. Syria is both a civil war and an invasion.

Whatever the dislike one can have for Hillary, I think it's safe to say she is not responsible for the sorry state of the middle east.

The problem with GH and overal the vibe I get from Bernie right now is that he forgot what was his strength - discussing what actually matter - and lost itself in mud politics. Who cares about Hillary ? Discuss the policies, that's where she is weak by the way, as she is always running after others.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
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