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On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins.
Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style.
The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption.
Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars.
And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there.
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On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job.
I guess the complaint is that people in our generation have a more limited path to financial/ whatever success and stability. Previous generations had a cheaper college education (which wasn't a super common employment requirement) and a lot more low-skilled but at the same time well-paying jobs. So part of it is definitely that the paradigm has shifted a lot.
The government has the ability (one might say responsibility or duty) to try and make sure people have the opportunities to succeed though. College needs to be affordable, but at the same time we need to shift to the understanding that college isn't solely about making friends, discovering yourself, but also preparing you in very tangible ways for real life. That mindset needs to be emphasized. Beyond that, we need a social safety net that catches people, but then also put in place ways for them so they aren't just sitting in the net or on economic life support forever.
Beyond that, we need some way to address wage stagnation. I don't agree with a very high min/living wage or whatever, a minimum wage shouldn't be something you aspire to or make your entire life, it's a starting point.
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On March 03 2016 04:40 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:22 strongwind wrote:
Clinton has been winning by ridiculous margins in red states, which will probably stay red in the general election. That's concerning because it's what largely has been propping up Hillary's campaign so far. Bernie has been tying or winning in blue states. I don't understand how people don't see this as a problem for Hillary in the general election.
Plus, more Republicans are turning out to vote than Democrats. We all know Democrats suffer when turnout is low, and I don't see that changing much in the general. If people are expecting an Obama-like surge for Hillary in the general, they are smoking some good stuff.
Barring a huge misstep from Trump (which is always a distinct possibility), this will be a lot more competitive than people think. The misstep came when he called Hispanics a bunch of rapists and drug dealers. Alienating the largest swing voteing bloc at the start isn't going to help you. George W bush showed the the way forward for the GOP was to court the Hispanic vote. I don't know why the GOP deided to ignore this and go off and lose every presidential race afterwords but ignoring basic demographic data like that isn't going to help anyone. Unless hillary pulls a palin I think its not even a discussion worth having whos going to win.
The Hispanic vote will, if the Republicans don't overhaul their platform and strategy, destroy any chances of Republican Presidential viability come 2020/2024.
Florida is looking increasingly Democratic favored, and North Carolina is in contention largely due to the Hispanic vote. Come 2020-24, demographic shifts means Arizona and Texas will soon be major battlegrounds, and without any gains elsewhere or a major fracture in the Democratic party (Hillary's nomination will delay a schism between the progressive and "Reagan Democrat" wings for perhaps another decade longer), the electoral map looks increasingly bleak for the Republicans without a major realignment.
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Norway28910 Posts
On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there.
So how come the 'be self-reliant' group coincides heavily with the 'abortions are wrong' group?
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There's a stop Trump initiative among the Hispanics that's trying to register an extra 3M voters. If that's effective, we could see some interesting effects sooner rather than later.
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On March 03 2016 04:48 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there. So how come the 'be self-reliant' group coincides heavily with the 'abortions are wrong' group?
Because of religion.
And frankly, I'm not fan of it.
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United States44384 Posts
On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there.
My point is that I'd really like to see more "We believe in personal responsibility and individuals working hard to improve their own situation and that's why we're introducing these childcare subsidies for low income single parents who go back to work and a tax credit for businesses who offer single parents flexible working hours to allow them to both be a productive member of society and a parent to their children, instead of choosing between the two".
Some twentysomething professional talking shit about hard work while opposing systems that promote hard work loses me. Especially if that same person chooses to blame people and ignore their own privilege that exempted them from the consequences of the same mistakes. A mistake that in a black kid results in a record and ineligibility for scholarships and government jobs could just be a warning for a white kid for example. It basically comes down to what that Jesus guy said about judging others. The vast majority of successful people did not succeed in a vacuum, I know from my own life that I was insulated from the consequences of some of my educational mistakes by my parents. I don't depend on them, I'm independently successful but had they not had my back earlier on smaller mistakes could have snowballed and changed a lot in my life today. I got lucky to have the background I have, not everybody gets so lucky.
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On March 03 2016 04:30 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:22 strongwind wrote:
Clinton has been winning by ridiculous margins in red states, which will probably stay red in the general election. That's concerning because it's what largely has been propping up Hillary's campaign so far. Bernie has been tying or winning in blue states. I don't understand how people don't see this as a problem for Hillary in the general election.
Plus, more Republicans are turning out to vote than Democrats. We all know Democrats suffer when turnout is low, and I don't see that changing much in the general. If people are expecting an Obama-like surge for Hillary in the general, they are smoking some good stuff.
Barring a huge misstep from Trump (which is always a distinct possibility), this will be a lot more competitive than people think. Using your line of thinking, "blue" states hardly matters either. In reality though, it's the battlegrounds that matter, specifically Virginia, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Florida (North Carolina, Nevada, Iowa, Colorado, and New Hampshire are of secondary importance to the above). Clinton has already won Virginia, and has a very strong lead in both Ohio and Florida based on current polls. In Florida in particular, her popularity with Hispanic voters (or at least, their indifference to Sanders), will be critical, given that Florida in the 2016 elections is now increasingly a "must-win" state for the Republicans to have a prayer of winning the White House.
I'm talking about the general election, not the primaries. I'm assuming Hillary wins the nomination.
You're right, it'll basically come down to the swing states. And as I said, it will be a hell of a lot closer than people think.
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2016/03/01/president-donald-trump-likely-the-next-occupant-of-the-white-house
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
republicans know about their hispanic demographics doom problem and they've been crafting these candidates for a while. rubio just isn't very good by himself despite all the astroturfing from big business.
cruz is a lunatic
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On March 03 2016 04:53 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there. My point is that I'd really like to see more "We believe in personal responsibility and individuals working hard to improve their own situation and that's why we're introducing these childcare subsidies for low income single parents who go back to work and a tax credit for businesses who offer single parents flexible working hours to allow them to both be a productive member of society and a parent to their children, instead of choosing between the two". Some twentysomething professional talking shit about hard work while opposing systems that promote hard work loses me. Especially if that same person chooses to blame people and ignore their own privilege that exempted them from the consequences of the same mistakes. A mistake that in a black kid results in a record and ineligibility for scholarships and government jobs could just be a warning for a white kid for example. It basically comes down to what that Jesus guy said about judging others. The vast majority of successful people did not succeed in a vacuum, I know from my own life that I was insulated from the consequences of some of my educational mistakes by my parents. I don't depend on them, I'm independently successful but had they not had my back earlier on smaller mistakes could have snowballed and changed a lot in my life today. I got lucky to have the background I have, not everybody gets so lucky.
The government should be better at promoting strong family structure so that it gives more incentive to stay as a couple than to break up.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
all the family structure won't help you in this competitive global economy
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On March 03 2016 04:55 ErectedZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:53 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there. My point is that I'd really like to see more "We believe in personal responsibility and individuals working hard to improve their own situation and that's why we're introducing these childcare subsidies for low income single parents who go back to work and a tax credit for businesses who offer single parents flexible working hours to allow them to both be a productive member of society and a parent to their children, instead of choosing between the two". Some twentysomething professional talking shit about hard work while opposing systems that promote hard work loses me. Especially if that same person chooses to blame people and ignore their own privilege that exempted them from the consequences of the same mistakes. A mistake that in a black kid results in a record and ineligibility for scholarships and government jobs could just be a warning for a white kid for example. It basically comes down to what that Jesus guy said about judging others. The vast majority of successful people did not succeed in a vacuum, I know from my own life that I was insulated from the consequences of some of my educational mistakes by my parents. I don't depend on them, I'm independently successful but had they not had my back earlier on smaller mistakes could have snowballed and changed a lot in my life today. I got lucky to have the background I have, not everybody gets so lucky. The government should be better at promoting strong family structure so that it gives more incentive to stay as a couple than to break up.
This is some high level bait. Are you sure you’re not Sheep? This is a very Sheep style bait.
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The stronger a family is, the better it is for the offspring to succeed w/ both parents' support.
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On March 03 2016 04:53 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there. My point is that I'd really like to see more "We believe in personal responsibility and individuals working hard to improve their own situation and that's why we're introducing these childcare subsidies for low income single parents who go back to work and a tax credit for businesses who offer single parents flexible working hours to allow them to both be a productive member of society and a parent to their children, instead of choosing between the two".
A lot of the problem has to do with the perceived ineffectiveness of these subsidies and welfare programs.
On March 03 2016 04:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:55 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:53 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there. My point is that I'd really like to see more "We believe in personal responsibility and individuals working hard to improve their own situation and that's why we're introducing these childcare subsidies for low income single parents who go back to work and a tax credit for businesses who offer single parents flexible working hours to allow them to both be a productive member of society and a parent to their children, instead of choosing between the two". Some twentysomething professional talking shit about hard work while opposing systems that promote hard work loses me. Especially if that same person chooses to blame people and ignore their own privilege that exempted them from the consequences of the same mistakes. A mistake that in a black kid results in a record and ineligibility for scholarships and government jobs could just be a warning for a white kid for example. It basically comes down to what that Jesus guy said about judging others. The vast majority of successful people did not succeed in a vacuum, I know from my own life that I was insulated from the consequences of some of my educational mistakes by my parents. I don't depend on them, I'm independently successful but had they not had my back earlier on smaller mistakes could have snowballed and changed a lot in my life today. I got lucky to have the background I have, not everybody gets so lucky. The government should be better at promoting strong family structure so that it gives more incentive to stay as a couple than to break up. This is some high level bait. Are you sure you’re not Sheep? This is a very Sheep style bait.
Yes, because stating an opinion is now bait?
There have been studies done over and over again, that have pretty much pointed out that the number one predictor of not falling into poverty is having a 2 parent household.
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United States44384 Posts
On March 03 2016 04:55 ErectedZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:53 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there. My point is that I'd really like to see more "We believe in personal responsibility and individuals working hard to improve their own situation and that's why we're introducing these childcare subsidies for low income single parents who go back to work and a tax credit for businesses who offer single parents flexible working hours to allow them to both be a productive member of society and a parent to their children, instead of choosing between the two". Some twentysomething professional talking shit about hard work while opposing systems that promote hard work loses me. Especially if that same person chooses to blame people and ignore their own privilege that exempted them from the consequences of the same mistakes. A mistake that in a black kid results in a record and ineligibility for scholarships and government jobs could just be a warning for a white kid for example. It basically comes down to what that Jesus guy said about judging others. The vast majority of successful people did not succeed in a vacuum, I know from my own life that I was insulated from the consequences of some of my educational mistakes by my parents. I don't depend on them, I'm independently successful but had they not had my back earlier on smaller mistakes could have snowballed and changed a lot in my life today. I got lucky to have the background I have, not everybody gets so lucky. The government should be better at promoting strong family structure so that it gives more incentive to stay as a couple than to break up.
The government should be better at teaching sex education so that you don't have so many teen pregnancies. And it should provide better access to abortion. It's not that the children of rich white pro-life moralists don't have unprotected sex, it's that their parents can afford to get them to the one abortion clinic still in operation in their state.
Forcing two people who may never have been a couple and certainly may not be an effective family unit and a stable home for a child to stay together certainly doesn't make things better. The normalization of single parenthood as an option is a good thing, yes, two good parents are better than one good parent but one good parent is better than two bad parents who hate each other. People should be able to escape abusive relationships.
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On March 03 2016 04:57 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:53 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there. My point is that I'd really like to see more "We believe in personal responsibility and individuals working hard to improve their own situation and that's why we're introducing these childcare subsidies for low income single parents who go back to work and a tax credit for businesses who offer single parents flexible working hours to allow them to both be a productive member of society and a parent to their children, instead of choosing between the two". A lot of the problem has to do with the perceived ineffectiveness of these subsidies and welfare programs.
But we should base the decision on if the programs are effective or not. Perception is something that can be fixed without altering an effective program. Cutting the program all together is not a solution.
On March 03 2016 04:57 wei2coolman wrote:
Yes, because stating an opinion is now bait?
A previous poster would frame questions in a similar fashion in an effort to get rises out of people. He was also a huge Trump supporter and would update the thread every time Trump passed win. And there were a couple people that suspected the poster, Sheep, was a previously banned user. Sheep was banned.
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United States44384 Posts
On March 03 2016 04:57 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:53 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there. My point is that I'd really like to see more "We believe in personal responsibility and individuals working hard to improve their own situation and that's why we're introducing these childcare subsidies for low income single parents who go back to work and a tax credit for businesses who offer single parents flexible working hours to allow them to both be a productive member of society and a parent to their children, instead of choosing between the two". A lot of the problem has to do with the perceived ineffectiveness of these subsidies and welfare programs. Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:56 Plansix wrote:On March 03 2016 04:55 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:53 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there. My point is that I'd really like to see more "We believe in personal responsibility and individuals working hard to improve their own situation and that's why we're introducing these childcare subsidies for low income single parents who go back to work and a tax credit for businesses who offer single parents flexible working hours to allow them to both be a productive member of society and a parent to their children, instead of choosing between the two". Some twentysomething professional talking shit about hard work while opposing systems that promote hard work loses me. Especially if that same person chooses to blame people and ignore their own privilege that exempted them from the consequences of the same mistakes. A mistake that in a black kid results in a record and ineligibility for scholarships and government jobs could just be a warning for a white kid for example. It basically comes down to what that Jesus guy said about judging others. The vast majority of successful people did not succeed in a vacuum, I know from my own life that I was insulated from the consequences of some of my educational mistakes by my parents. I don't depend on them, I'm independently successful but had they not had my back earlier on smaller mistakes could have snowballed and changed a lot in my life today. I got lucky to have the background I have, not everybody gets so lucky. The government should be better at promoting strong family structure so that it gives more incentive to stay as a couple than to break up. This is some high level bait. Are you sure you’re not Sheep? This is a very Sheep style bait. Yes, because stating an opinion is now bait? There have been studies done over and over again, that have pretty much pointed out that the number one predictor of not falling into poverty is having a 2 parent household.
Correlation is not the same thing as causation. Wet people are attacked by sharks more often than dry people but you wouldn't buy an umbrella based on that argument.
If you moved the criminal history unemployed baby daddy back in with the mother he beats when he gets too drunk or frustrated at the world you're not suddenly going to improve the life of that child. Single parent households correlate with a lot of other negative stuff. Adding back a second parent won't fix any of the other issues and will make a lot of shit worse. There's a reason the person was a single parent, if the partner was a helpful and constructive part of their life they're probably not a single parent.
Hell, I have the perfect example for this. Many people who die of cancer have, at some point, had a tumor removed. Therefore we should find people who have had tumors removed and put their tumors back in, thus reducing their chances of cancer. Sure, having a tumor removed isn't a good sign of health but it's a lot better than bringing the tumor back. If someone is a single parent for a good reason then while that may, overall, be worse than having two good parents it's still a hell of a lot better than bringing back the other shitty parent.
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On March 03 2016 04:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:57 wei2coolman wrote:On March 03 2016 04:53 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there. My point is that I'd really like to see more "We believe in personal responsibility and individuals working hard to improve their own situation and that's why we're introducing these childcare subsidies for low income single parents who go back to work and a tax credit for businesses who offer single parents flexible working hours to allow them to both be a productive member of society and a parent to their children, instead of choosing between the two". A lot of the problem has to do with the perceived ineffectiveness of these subsidies and welfare programs. But we should base the decision on if the programs are effective or not. Perception is something that can be fixed without altering an effective program. Cutting the program all together is not a solution.
The problem also has to do with trust of the government. Any expansion of any program always means giving more money to the government. The inherent distrust of government's ability to handle tax payer money is a very real problem for a majority of people. Don't get me wrong, these programs are necessary, but the problem is willingness to hand money over to a middleman, who's been notorious about mishandling money.
On March 03 2016 05:01 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:57 wei2coolman wrote:On March 03 2016 04:53 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there. My point is that I'd really like to see more "We believe in personal responsibility and individuals working hard to improve their own situation and that's why we're introducing these childcare subsidies for low income single parents who go back to work and a tax credit for businesses who offer single parents flexible working hours to allow them to both be a productive member of society and a parent to their children, instead of choosing between the two". A lot of the problem has to do with the perceived ineffectiveness of these subsidies and welfare programs. On March 03 2016 04:56 Plansix wrote:On March 03 2016 04:55 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:53 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there. My point is that I'd really like to see more "We believe in personal responsibility and individuals working hard to improve their own situation and that's why we're introducing these childcare subsidies for low income single parents who go back to work and a tax credit for businesses who offer single parents flexible working hours to allow them to both be a productive member of society and a parent to their children, instead of choosing between the two". Some twentysomething professional talking shit about hard work while opposing systems that promote hard work loses me. Especially if that same person chooses to blame people and ignore their own privilege that exempted them from the consequences of the same mistakes. A mistake that in a black kid results in a record and ineligibility for scholarships and government jobs could just be a warning for a white kid for example. It basically comes down to what that Jesus guy said about judging others. The vast majority of successful people did not succeed in a vacuum, I know from my own life that I was insulated from the consequences of some of my educational mistakes by my parents. I don't depend on them, I'm independently successful but had they not had my back earlier on smaller mistakes could have snowballed and changed a lot in my life today. I got lucky to have the background I have, not everybody gets so lucky. The government should be better at promoting strong family structure so that it gives more incentive to stay as a couple than to break up. This is some high level bait. Are you sure you’re not Sheep? This is a very Sheep style bait. Yes, because stating an opinion is now bait? There have been studies done over and over again, that have pretty much pointed out that the number one predictor of not falling into poverty is having a 2 parent household. Correlation is not the same thing as causation. Wet people are attacked by sharks more often than dry people but you wouldn't buy an umbrella based on that argument. If you moved the criminal history unemployed baby daddy back in with the mother he beats when he gets too drunk or frustrated at the world you're not suddenly going to improve the life of that child. Single parent households correlate with a lot of other negative stuff.
I wouldn't buy an umbrella, but I'd stay away from the ocean.
That being said, we're talking about the exact same single parent household issues affect the white population as well.
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Attempting to create loving families through financial incentive has proven to be a really dumb plan and lead to a lot of the results Kwark talked about. It also prohibits the creation of naturally loving families that come from single parents finding partners they want to be with for more than just a few extra dollars monthly. It’s a terrible plan all around.
On March 03 2016 05:02 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:59 Plansix wrote:On March 03 2016 04:57 wei2coolman wrote:On March 03 2016 04:53 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there. My point is that I'd really like to see more "We believe in personal responsibility and individuals working hard to improve their own situation and that's why we're introducing these childcare subsidies for low income single parents who go back to work and a tax credit for businesses who offer single parents flexible working hours to allow them to both be a productive member of society and a parent to their children, instead of choosing between the two". A lot of the problem has to do with the perceived ineffectiveness of these subsidies and welfare programs. But we should base the decision on if the programs are effective or not. Perception is something that can be fixed without altering an effective program. Cutting the program all together is not a solution. The problem also has to do with trust of the government. Any expansion of any program always means giving more money to the government. The inherent distrust of government's ability to handle tax payer money is a very real problem for a majority of people. Don't get me wrong, these programs are necessary, but the problem is willingness to hand money over to a middleman, who's been notorious about mishandling money.
I distrust banks and the government. I still a have a checking account and mortgage. I find the argument that we can’t trust government to be weak at best, since oversight is easier than just not addressing the problem. And not addressing these problems costs us more long term because these children will grow up and become adults.
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On March 03 2016 04:55 ErectedZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 04:53 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On March 03 2016 04:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2016 04:18 BisuDagger wrote:And more interestingly, who do those people expect to fix that problem? Me personally, I have loans, debt, and cost of living. I don't blame anyone for that. I took out loans to get an education and even if it takes me ten years to pay them off I understood those risks. And let's assume I'm working at a company where my wage does not reflect the value of my work. Then it is my responsibility to bring that to the attention of my company and request that my wage is adjusted accordingly. If that does not occur, job searching begins. At no point do I blame anyone for my debt or pay but myself. And I only rely on myself to fix my problems. I don't need someone to level my playing field, I can handle that myself. Now let's assume I don't get paid well, but my wage does reflect the value of my work. I can bitch all I want that I need more money, but the only way I expect to make more is to raise the value of my work by either taking on more responsibility at my current job or getting a better job. Personal responsibility is great at making the best from a shitty situation but does nothing to address systematic shitty situations. It's also very easy to speak from a position of privilege and preach that people simply fix all their own problems but just because you can solve all your issues does not mean that those issues are trivial for others. Often when the "why don't you just solve all your own problems" argument is applied more closely to real people facing real problems it just turns into blaming. Sure, the single mother who got pregnant with a deadbeat baby daddy and didn't graduate made some dumb fucking decisions but unless there are structures in place that actually allow her to fix her own problems the condescension of others does little to help her. I fully support the idea of people working hard and improving their lot but too many people who argue that narrative then go on to argue against programs that help people to fix their problems and instead prefer to smugly blame people for their mistakes. That's where the "work hard, help yourself" crowd lose me, it's too often a cover for "fuck you, I got mine, you deserve to suffer for your sins" being cried by people who, in general, never had to pay for their own sins. Tbh there aren't a lot to help single mothers if they can't sustain the life style. The only possible way is to promote abortion or promote adoption. Unless there is a quote of how many single mothers to get welfare support, there are many ways of abusing the tax dollars. And sending the father to jail isn't the best course of action either, more tax dollar spent to feed him there. My point is that I'd really like to see more "We believe in personal responsibility and individuals working hard to improve their own situation and that's why we're introducing these childcare subsidies for low income single parents who go back to work and a tax credit for businesses who offer single parents flexible working hours to allow them to both be a productive member of society and a parent to their children, instead of choosing between the two". Some twentysomething professional talking shit about hard work while opposing systems that promote hard work loses me. Especially if that same person chooses to blame people and ignore their own privilege that exempted them from the consequences of the same mistakes. A mistake that in a black kid results in a record and ineligibility for scholarships and government jobs could just be a warning for a white kid for example. It basically comes down to what that Jesus guy said about judging others. The vast majority of successful people did not succeed in a vacuum, I know from my own life that I was insulated from the consequences of some of my educational mistakes by my parents. I don't depend on them, I'm independently successful but had they not had my back earlier on smaller mistakes could have snowballed and changed a lot in my life today. I got lucky to have the background I have, not everybody gets so lucky. The government should be better at promoting strong family structure so that it gives more incentive to stay as a couple than to break up.
Ignoring the host of mal-incentives is where the soft-heart soft-head types lose me. Single mothers deserves this and that welfare program on the road back, so let's get to work creating more single mothers and increasing the numbers of those stuck in poverty and the list goes on. There's like a tacit acknowledgment that the numbers of single mothers will remain constant through all this therefore my policies are the best ones fo fix it.
Another issue is the patronizing view that one must first chose to acknowlege "their own privilege." It's an abrupt switch from compassion for the poor to own up to your evil you hateful, prejudiced sob. Well, if you can't have an educated discussion on welfare assistance policies without resorting to bashing your opponents, I can see why the debate remains stuck on stupid. It's usually paired with the even more sanctimonious, "I'd like to see your point of view, but I just can't look past your own privileged viewpoints, which would honestly be the first step to solving the problem."
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EPT
