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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
December 09 2015 21:36 GMT
#52661
I actually don't know why Scalia cited scientists (unless it was part of a brief he recently read). The most rigorous study I remember related to the UC system, law students, and bar pass rates. After they passed the constitutional amendment, minority students who would have gone to UCBerkley or UCLA under the old system, but ended at a T2 school (based on test scores, etc) actually passed the California bar at a higher rate.
Freeeeeeedom
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
December 09 2015 21:36 GMT
#52662
On December 10 2015 06:27 cLutZ wrote:
No its a stream of consciousness description of "mismatch" which is a rigorous social science theory probably discussed in the majority of the briefs.


Yea dunno if I would call mismatch a rigorous theory since its not used by many people and it has taken a fair share of criticism.
Never Knows Best.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43298 Posts
December 09 2015 21:40 GMT
#52663
On December 10 2015 06:35 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2015 06:06 ticklishmusic wrote:
You know what republican I would like for president? Arnold Schwarzenegger. Shame he was born in another country.


I was thinking the same thing. I'd vote for him over Sanders any day of the week. A reasonable, well accomplished guy with a solid record.

It's really weird that we require candidates to have been born here. What a strange requirement.

Not really. The founders would have likely recalled that the Prince of Wales was an English royal appointment. It's a guarantee against rule by proxy.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15725 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-09 21:42:05
December 09 2015 21:40 GMT
#52664
Trump/Scalia 2016?

edit:
On December 10 2015 06:40 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2015 06:35 Mohdoo wrote:
On December 10 2015 06:06 ticklishmusic wrote:
You know what republican I would like for president? Arnold Schwarzenegger. Shame he was born in another country.


I was thinking the same thing. I'd vote for him over Sanders any day of the week. A reasonable, well accomplished guy with a solid record.

It's really weird that we require candidates to have been born here. What a strange requirement.

Not really. The founders would have likely recalled that the Prince of Wales was an English royal appointment. It's a guarantee against rule by proxy.


I guess I was more so meaning it is weird that we still have that rule in place. There is zero benefit to that policy current day. Or even in the last 100 years.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-09 21:53:51
December 09 2015 21:41 GMT
#52665
Race-based doesn't work in the vast majority of situations. Most of the time it's just gonna get a middle or upperclass under represented minority kid with okayish stats into a school he wouldn't have gotten him into otherwise. Only very rarely is the impoverished first-gen kid with a 2000-ish SAT and a 3.6 going to get to Harvard.

Also, a lot of the kids from poorer backgrounds get screwed in college. They're smart, but they have to hold a job, they have trouble fitting in, etc. That's the real problem we should be looking at.

I went to an expensive, highly ranked private school for university (Asian kid on scholarship). About 10% of the student population was black-- African American or otherwise. We can ignore their academic stats or whatever, but I'd say very few of them were from a poor background. Most were probably middle-class, and there's a few I knew who were filthy rich. Economically, they were basically the same as the rest of the campus.

Also, affirmative action is basically just discriminating against Asians now. So there's that.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 09 2015 21:45 GMT
#52666
On December 10 2015 06:40 Mohdoo wrote:
Trump/Scalia 2016?

edit:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2015 06:40 KwarK wrote:
On December 10 2015 06:35 Mohdoo wrote:
On December 10 2015 06:06 ticklishmusic wrote:
You know what republican I would like for president? Arnold Schwarzenegger. Shame he was born in another country.


I was thinking the same thing. I'd vote for him over Sanders any day of the week. A reasonable, well accomplished guy with a solid record.

It's really weird that we require candidates to have been born here. What a strange requirement.

Not really. The founders would have likely recalled that the Prince of Wales was an English royal appointment. It's a guarantee against rule by proxy.


I guess I was more so meaning it is weird that we still have that rule in place. There is zero benefit to that policy current day. Or even in the last 100 years.

No reason to amend the Constitution to remove it, so it remains the rule. It will likely never be removed.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-09 21:47:50
December 09 2015 21:46 GMT
#52667
As an outsider (had to read up on AA briefly, no such thing here).. My first thought was "wow, that's condescending". My second thought was "that might actually be racist".

Yes, a minority profits from it, and possibly good intentions - that doesn't make it "not racist", doesn't it? Or am i misunderstanding the concept of AA?
On track to MA1950A.
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6639 Posts
December 09 2015 21:47 GMT
#52668
Jeb Bush's site is currently redirecting to Trump's site, haha.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15725 Posts
December 09 2015 21:47 GMT
#52669
On December 10 2015 06:45 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2015 06:40 Mohdoo wrote:
Trump/Scalia 2016?

edit:
On December 10 2015 06:40 KwarK wrote:
On December 10 2015 06:35 Mohdoo wrote:
On December 10 2015 06:06 ticklishmusic wrote:
You know what republican I would like for president? Arnold Schwarzenegger. Shame he was born in another country.


I was thinking the same thing. I'd vote for him over Sanders any day of the week. A reasonable, well accomplished guy with a solid record.

It's really weird that we require candidates to have been born here. What a strange requirement.

Not really. The founders would have likely recalled that the Prince of Wales was an English royal appointment. It's a guarantee against rule by proxy.


I guess I was more so meaning it is weird that we still have that rule in place. There is zero benefit to that policy current day. Or even in the last 100 years.

No reason to amend the Constitution to remove it, so it remains the rule. It will likely never be removed.


When it comes to placing a restriction, isn't it usually about justifying the restriction, rather than justifying the absence of a restriction? Isn't a larger pool of candidates a reason to amend it? It's not like they were trying to make sure people who moved here when they were 6 could not be president. They were worried about a very specific scenario that is 100% impossible now.
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
December 09 2015 21:51 GMT
#52670
On December 10 2015 06:46 m4ini wrote:
As an outsider (had to read up on AA briefly, no such thing here).. My first thought was "wow, that's condescending". My second thought was "that might actually be racist".

Yes, a minority profits from it, and possibly good intentions - that doesn't make it "not racist", doesn't it? Or am i misunderstanding the concept of AA?


It kind of is on its own, but when you acknowledge systemic racial inequality built in US society, you can understand it better. It's more of a bandaid solution, but since there is no quick cure for the underlying issue it is a mitigating recourse.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-09 21:53:31
December 09 2015 21:52 GMT
#52671
On December 10 2015 06:47 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2015 06:45 Plansix wrote:
On December 10 2015 06:40 Mohdoo wrote:
Trump/Scalia 2016?

edit:
On December 10 2015 06:40 KwarK wrote:
On December 10 2015 06:35 Mohdoo wrote:
On December 10 2015 06:06 ticklishmusic wrote:
You know what republican I would like for president? Arnold Schwarzenegger. Shame he was born in another country.


I was thinking the same thing. I'd vote for him over Sanders any day of the week. A reasonable, well accomplished guy with a solid record.

It's really weird that we require candidates to have been born here. What a strange requirement.

Not really. The founders would have likely recalled that the Prince of Wales was an English royal appointment. It's a guarantee against rule by proxy.


I guess I was more so meaning it is weird that we still have that rule in place. There is zero benefit to that policy current day. Or even in the last 100 years.

No reason to amend the Constitution to remove it, so it remains the rule. It will likely never be removed.


When it comes to placing a restriction, isn't it usually about justifying the restriction, rather than justifying the absence of a restriction? Isn't a larger pool of candidates a reason to amend it? It's not like they were trying to make sure people who moved here when they were 6 could not be president. They were worried about a very specific scenario that is 100% impossible now.

Do you know the process required to amended/change Constitution? Because that is where the requirements are there is only one way to change them. The political reality is that congress will likely never vote to expand the field to Americans not born in this country because most of them already meet the requirements and the public isn't asking for it.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
December 09 2015 21:53 GMT
#52672
On December 10 2015 06:51 ragz_gt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2015 06:46 m4ini wrote:
As an outsider (had to read up on AA briefly, no such thing here).. My first thought was "wow, that's condescending". My second thought was "that might actually be racist".

Yes, a minority profits from it, and possibly good intentions - that doesn't make it "not racist", doesn't it? Or am i misunderstanding the concept of AA?


It kind of is on its own, but when you acknowledge systemic racial inequality built in US society, you can understand it better. It's more of a bandaid solution, but since there is no quick cure for the underlying issue it is a mitigating recourse.


Fair enough, that i can wrap my head around. Thanks.
On track to MA1950A.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23494 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-09 21:57:29
December 09 2015 21:53 GMT
#52673
On December 10 2015 04:30 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2015 04:14 ticklishmusic wrote:
I don't think Ted Cruz will get much farther than he is now. Sure he might poll a bit higher, but he'll never be president.


Yup, agreed. I still think Rubio is the only GOP candidate with a chance in 2016. He's gonna have to make a miracle happen, though.


Yeah, I'm not seeing that chance myself. I might get on board when he's not 10+ points down in his own state (nullifies most/all of the Republican arguments for why Trump is winning). The Republican nominee will be Trump or Cruz.

Cruz is only in it because he's a much more shrewd politician and has an extensive ground game through super Tuesday states

I'm still pulling for Sanders though and I think he would beat Trump by 10 points or more.

EDIT: Scalia is scum. Most of the problems with affirmative action come from lazy and ignorant implementation, and as a result of obliviousness to what racism (especially systemic) is and looks like.

Like most laws it only exists because without being compelled by law, people would continue to be assholes.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15725 Posts
December 09 2015 22:02 GMT
#52674
On December 10 2015 06:52 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2015 06:47 Mohdoo wrote:
On December 10 2015 06:45 Plansix wrote:
On December 10 2015 06:40 Mohdoo wrote:
Trump/Scalia 2016?

edit:
On December 10 2015 06:40 KwarK wrote:
On December 10 2015 06:35 Mohdoo wrote:
On December 10 2015 06:06 ticklishmusic wrote:
You know what republican I would like for president? Arnold Schwarzenegger. Shame he was born in another country.


I was thinking the same thing. I'd vote for him over Sanders any day of the week. A reasonable, well accomplished guy with a solid record.

It's really weird that we require candidates to have been born here. What a strange requirement.

Not really. The founders would have likely recalled that the Prince of Wales was an English royal appointment. It's a guarantee against rule by proxy.


I guess I was more so meaning it is weird that we still have that rule in place. There is zero benefit to that policy current day. Or even in the last 100 years.

No reason to amend the Constitution to remove it, so it remains the rule. It will likely never be removed.


When it comes to placing a restriction, isn't it usually about justifying the restriction, rather than justifying the absence of a restriction? Isn't a larger pool of candidates a reason to amend it? It's not like they were trying to make sure people who moved here when they were 6 could not be president. They were worried about a very specific scenario that is 100% impossible now.

Do you know the process required to amended/change Constitution? Because that is where the requirements are there is only one way to change them. The political reality is that congress will likely never vote to expand the field to Americans not born in this country because most of them already meet the requirements and the public isn't asking for it.


I'm not saying I think the requirement is going anywhere any time soon. I am saying it is a requirement that should not exist because it limits the choice without a benefit.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
December 09 2015 22:10 GMT
#52675
The US is set to ban personal care products that contain microbeads after the House of Representatives approved a bill that would phase out the environmentally-harmful items.

The bill, which had been backed by a bipartisan committee, will now go to the Senate for approval.

The Microbead Free Waters Act would start the phase-out of the tiny pieces of plastic found in soap, toothpaste and body washes beginning 1 July 2017. Microbeads can flow into rivers, lakes and streams where, they can be mistaken for food by fish. This can lead to the spread of pollutants throughout the food chain, including to humans.

Microbeads are typically smaller than a pinhead but are causing significant problems in the Great Lakes. Research conducted in 2013 by the State University of New York found that the lakes were riddled with microbeads, with Lake Ontario containing an estimated 1.1m plastic particles per square kilometer.

Ohio, which has most of the Lake Erie shoreline, is considering microbead legislation, as is Michigan. Illinois became the first state to ban the sale of such products in 2014, with California recently finalising a bill to phase out microbeads by 2020.

Research by Oregon State University found that a stunning 8tn microbeads a day were being emitted into bodies of water in the US. This plastic adds to the vast quantity floating throughout the world’s oceans, with a recent study finding that up to 90% of the planet’s seabirds have pieces of plastic in their guts.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
December 09 2015 22:39 GMT
#52676
90% of seabirds with plastic in their guts NBD
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
December 09 2015 23:03 GMT
#52677
Trump is at 35 points in S. Carolina the closest is Carson at 15...
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
frazzle
Profile Joined June 2012
United States468 Posts
December 09 2015 23:09 GMT
#52678
On December 10 2015 06:36 cLutZ wrote:
I actually don't know why Scalia cited scientists (unless it was part of a brief he recently read). The most rigorous study I remember related to the UC system, law students, and bar pass rates. After they passed the constitutional amendment, minority students who would have gone to UCBerkley or UCLA under the old system, but ended at a T2 school (based on test scores, etc) actually passed the California bar at a higher rate.

It's not often I agree with cLutZ, but I think hyping this Scalia quote is mostly about optics and politics. I don't think Scalia was saying African-Americans can't handle top tier schools. He pretty clearly meant that for those getting admitted to a school they aren't prepared for and didn't test in to it can be a worse path for them to take than going to one that suits their preparedness. No need to try and read racism into everything your political opponents do, it's not helpful.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23494 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-09 23:10:48
December 09 2015 23:10 GMT
#52679

Trump's Islamophobia is a central feature of his appeal to his supporters (at least in NC):

-67% of his voters support a national database of Muslims in the United States, to only 14% opposed to it.

-62% believe his claims that thousands of Arabs cheered in New Jersey when the WorldTrade Center collapsed, to only 15% who don't believe that.

-51% want to see the Mosques in the country shut down, to only 16% against that.

-And only 24% of Trump supporters in the state even think Islam should be legal at all in
the United States, to 44% who think it shouldn't be.

Although these ideas are certainly most commonly held by Trump supporters, they're not
unique within the North Carolina GOP base:

-Overall 48% want a national database of Muslims to 33% who are opposed. Ted Cruz's (43/31) and Marco Rubio's supporters (38/36) join Trump's in their support for that idea while Carson's (34/51) are opposed.

-Overall 42% think thousands of Arabs cheered in New Jersey on 9/11 to 26% who don't think that happened. Cruz supporters (47/12) and Carson supporters narrowly (27/22) agree with Trump's that that happened while Rubio's (31/45) don't think it did.

-Overall 35% want to shut down the mosques in the United States to 33% who are opposed. Cruz supporters (41/28) again join Trump's in supporting that while Carson's (26/34) and Rubio's (29/45) are opposed.

-GOP voters as a whole (41/32) do at least think Islam should be legal in the United States. Trump's the only major candidate whose supporters are against that- Cruz's (37/30), Carson's (52/27), and Rubio's (52/16) all think Islam should be allowed.


Source

So yeah... Not thinking Trump's unapologetic xenophobia and blatant lies are going to hurt him. Republicans pretending this is a surprise is totally ridiculous.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Cowboy64
Profile Joined April 2015
115 Posts
December 09 2015 23:25 GMT
#52680
On December 10 2015 05:37 frazzle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2015 04:00 Cowboy64 wrote:
On December 10 2015 02:53 ragz_gt wrote:
On December 09 2015 23:45 Plansix wrote:
Ted Cruz, man who takes money directly from the oil industry and coal industry, tells us climate change isn't real. And even if it wasn't there that air pollution issue is a big one that can be solved with alternative energy. The Ex-Governator, Arnold himself, put it best in response to people criticizing his investment in solar energy.

"I don't want to be the last guy betting on Blockbuster as Netflix is taking off." This is an industry we could be leading in if our entrenched energy industry wasn't trying to hold the government back. So other countries will lead the way, like India.


Ted Cruz imo is the most dangerous man in US. He is calculating, manipulative, and has a track record of doing anything for political gain, closest comparison I can think of is probably Joe McCarthy.

Other than Joe McCarthy being a buzz-word among the left to denote "bad person", I really fail to see the similarities you're reaching for here. I suppose if Ted Cruz was asserting that Muslims had put spies in all levels of our government then the comparison might be apt, though even then it would be questionable (as far as I know, there are few prominent Muslims in our government, whereas the Venona cables proved that there were many Communist spies inside the federal government, sometimes in very high positions).

Basically, if people aren't going to research Joe McCarthy and who he actually was and what he actually did then comparisons to him will only sound intelligent to the uninformed and uneducated. To those with some knowledge of the actual person, it will usually sound silly and wildly ignorant.

The comparison is not new and is justified. He routinely uses half-truths and innuendo to smear his adversaries, usually in the pursuit of unattainable political goals, but always with his own political aggrandizement in mind.

The comparison is as silly then as it is now, irregardless of an unsourced blog on Forbes. Without defending accusations which, ironically, are given no source, I will say that I find it interesting that we've apparently decided that only Ted Cruz and Joe McCarthy have ever used implication and inuendo to attack political opponents. I'm reminded of the "seriousness of the charge" that plagued Clarence Thomas, the "Romney hasn't paid taxes in ten years, or so I'm told" from Harry Reid, or countless examples of Clinton smears (the Santorum "abortion" lie comes to mind.)

As I said, the comparisons are either entirely superficial ("they are both Republican senators!") or just betrays a complete misunderstanding of history.

Joe McCarthy most certainly had flaws, but I do find it funny that no one who derides him ever answers the most important question of all:

"Were there, or were there not, Communist spies inside the government and military?"

A witch-hunt is only unjustified if there's no witch.
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