|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On December 08 2015 03:11 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 03:07 Mohdoo wrote:On December 08 2015 02:48 Plansix wrote:On December 08 2015 02:43 oneofthem wrote:On December 08 2015 02:37 Plansix wrote:
Americans are willing to accept voodoo as tax policy all the time, see the Republican tax plan since 2000. Powered by black magic. If they ask Trump if he going to raise taxes and he says "no", Sanders can respond by simply saying Trump is lying and being unrealistic. Its not like the last two elections were decided on that question. Raising taxes polls poorly, but its not a deal breaker for most voters. they are fine with voodoo in two directions, tax cut and spending cut. increased spending AND tax raise is about as toxic as it comes in the fiscal policy. sanders will likely be talking about raising taxes on the rich and such, but this makes him easily caricatured as a class warrior sort of dude. again, pretty bad. The voting public tends not like the rich, especially if they are not paying taxes. Politics on the internet are not reflective of real life politics. Obama ran on a very similar platform to what Sanders is running on, raises taxes on the rich and large business, close loop holes. I think you are underestimating the desire in the US to have these issues addressed. Free college is the one thing that I have seen basically no one agreeing with Sanders on irl. It has allowed many people I know to just write him off as a loon Just another thing where Americans cant believe it would ever work while it tends to work reasonably well for many other nations. (their not necessarily all free but the cost of college in the US is retarded and should be addressed)
that being said, don't US university usually cover more than European ones?
I'm paying around ~220 Euro a semester I think but that's literally just to be in university. I still have to find my own housing which is a couple hundred per month. There is housing on campus which is cheaper but that's not covered by my ~220 Euro a semester and I'd still have to pay for that.
Whereas US universities usually provide some kind of housing, as in that's already in your tuition costs. Or so I was told.
So maybe that plays in there as well?
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
it is actually competition by unis in terms of accomodations. this is in part driven by rising demand side competition by parents correctly identifying vanishing access to professional jobs.
elite private schools are all building new dorms and the like. those cost a pretty penny
|
I remember freshman year I asked our university president why tuition was going up and why my scholarship (which was set as a % of tuition originally) wasn't. His answer was basically "everyone is raising prices so we gotta do it too but it's okay we have great financial aid". Pretty crap answer if you ask me.
And yeah, I think we've built 3 new frehsman residence halls and remodeled another 2. We also tore down a perfectly good wing of the chem building to build a nicer one, built an entire new biomed research center (I'm okay with this) and a new theology library. Meanwhile, the bathrooms in the library basement are still broken 4 years later.
|
On December 08 2015 03:24 oneofthem wrote:
it is actually competition by unis in terms of accomodations. this is in part driven by rising demand side competition by parents correctly identifying vanishing access to professional jobs.
elite private schools are all building new dorms and the like. those cost a pretty penny
Yes, because they know students will take out federal backed loans that can't be discharged, so prices don't matter. So they keep expanding to compete with others schools. Its an arms race in everything but the quality of education.
|
Anyone arguing the prices aren't being gouged is out of touch. As Plansix said, the reason the prices are so high is because students just pull out loans. If today the government said 'we wont back loans that are more than X amount', tuition rates for the vast majority of schools wouldn't exceed that amount. But since schools just get to play name your price for the last however many years, they have gotten more and more ridiculous.
EDIT:
I go to a private university (for profit school), and when you graduate from a program there you have to do an exit counseling of sorts. My school has a fairly reputable culinary program and during part of this exit process I overheard a group of students in front of me going over their loan amounts (the school prints out how much total you owe in debt and stuff and goes over all sorts of financial information). This student graduated from the culinary program and his loans totaled over $40,000.
I was pretty fucking disgusted. How the fuck is someone going to go work at some chain restaurant and ever make enough to pay back that amount.
|
The student loan system in the US needs to be destroyed and rebuilt. It is terrible on so many levels and only worked back when higher education was running with some level of self control, aka, they functioned in a system without unlimited money, regardless of merit of the degree. Right now its just them collecting federally backed loans and sending students out to pay them. Mind you, these loans can NEVER be discharged by anything other than a pay off, which is why they are issued without questions as to the ability of the borrower to pay them back.
|
On December 08 2015 03:24 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 03:11 Gorsameth wrote:On December 08 2015 03:07 Mohdoo wrote:On December 08 2015 02:48 Plansix wrote:On December 08 2015 02:43 oneofthem wrote:On December 08 2015 02:37 Plansix wrote:
Americans are willing to accept voodoo as tax policy all the time, see the Republican tax plan since 2000. Powered by black magic. If they ask Trump if he going to raise taxes and he says "no", Sanders can respond by simply saying Trump is lying and being unrealistic. Its not like the last two elections were decided on that question. Raising taxes polls poorly, but its not a deal breaker for most voters. they are fine with voodoo in two directions, tax cut and spending cut. increased spending AND tax raise is about as toxic as it comes in the fiscal policy. sanders will likely be talking about raising taxes on the rich and such, but this makes him easily caricatured as a class warrior sort of dude. again, pretty bad. The voting public tends not like the rich, especially if they are not paying taxes. Politics on the internet are not reflective of real life politics. Obama ran on a very similar platform to what Sanders is running on, raises taxes on the rich and large business, close loop holes. I think you are underestimating the desire in the US to have these issues addressed. Free college is the one thing that I have seen basically no one agreeing with Sanders on irl. It has allowed many people I know to just write him off as a loon Just another thing where Americans cant believe it would ever work while it tends to work reasonably well for many other nations. (their not necessarily all free but the cost of college in the US is retarded and should be addressed) that being said, don't US university usually cover more than European ones? I'm paying around ~220 Euro a semester I think but that's literally just to be in university. I still have to find my own housing which is a couple hundred per month. There is housing on campus which is cheaper but that's not covered by my ~220 Euro a semester and I'd still have to pay for that. Whereas US universities usually provide some kind of housing, as in that's already in your tuition costs. Or so I was told.So maybe that plays in there as well?
Housing frequently doubles university tuition in the United States. Commuters (especially in-state) often pay only 40-60% of what on-campus students pay... and we have undergraduate on-campus tuitions that easily run into the $40,000-$50,000 range, per year.
Scholarships and financial aid and student loans can be very, very variable.
|
Yes 'room and board' tacks a lot more onto the costs. The prices for that are ridiculous as well, its much cheaper to get a place with roommates in almost every instance.
|
ah I see, nevermind in that case.
|
United States43964 Posts
On December 08 2015 02:34 TheTenthDoc wrote:
If we're talking questions Trump could ask Sanders, there's quite a few simple questions a monkey could ask Trump that would humiliate him. The only reason the other candidates in the primary don't is because they're scared of him and/or they're saving them as haymakers when the field narrows.
"Have you found that video of Muslims in New Jersey cheering for 9/11 yet?"
"What is your economic policy, exactly? Would you change anything about Wall Street?"
"What is your foreign policy, exactly? What would you have done differently from Obama?"
"Do you actually read any of the bills you talk about?"
"Could you name five Secretaries of State?" alternately, "Do you know who Alexander Haig is?"
"Why do you disagree with the immigration platform on your own site?"
"Why exactly do you call people ugly so much?"
I'm sure there are more.
I have some answers for you.
"9/11! Never forget what they did to us. Obama hasn't done enough to stop ISIS, we should make a list of Muslims."
"China is beating us. When I'm in business I beat China all the time. Elect me and I'll beat China for working Americans."
"I would have beaten ISIS and been stronger on Syria. Benghazi. Bennnnghazi. BENNNNGHAZI!!! Obama is weak. America needs strong leadership."
"It's important to get power back to Congress where the bills are. Executive overreach under Obama has been anti-democratic, irresponsible and unconstitutional. We need to go back to the constitution that represents real Americans."
"Could you? You see the liberal media are out to get me with all these questions and are always trying to appear so smug. You think that appeals to the American public? The American public know you don't have to name people to know right from wrong."
"We could talk all day about immigration but it won't solve the ongoing crisis on our southern border. Talking won't change the flood of immigrants coming to America to take jobs from hard working Americans. That's why I'm the only leader who plans to take decisive action that will stop the bflood.
"I'm here to talk about the issues. I don't have time to be PC. I'm going to make America great again."
Those kind of questions don't really work on Trump because the people for whom he appeals just don't care about that stuff. They care about the tone in which he replies. The content is irrelevant.
|
On December 08 2015 03:17 Kickstart wrote:
Please. The fact that our universities cost so much is ridiculous, same with healthcare. The reason prices are allowed to get so high is because they are allowed to charge whatever the hell they want for things and people will pay it. Even shitty online degrees can set people back tens of thousands of dollars, its such a joke. And lets hope no one gets seriously ill, your entire family will be forced into bankruptcy to keep you from losing your life or limbs.
Some things just shouldn't be purely profit driven.
Its almost like those are two of the most federally driven parts of the economy. Shocking how that happens.
|
On a side note, the French Trump (Marie Le Pen), they don't really have a traditional American Conservative party (just Socialists, and socialists who don't like immigration), just won.
|
United States43964 Posts
On December 08 2015 03:51 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 03:17 Kickstart wrote:
Please. The fact that our universities cost so much is ridiculous, same with healthcare. The reason prices are allowed to get so high is because they are allowed to charge whatever the hell they want for things and people will pay it. Even shitty online degrees can set people back tens of thousands of dollars, its such a joke. And lets hope no one gets seriously ill, your entire family will be forced into bankruptcy to keep you from losing your life or limbs.
Some things just shouldn't be purely profit driven. Its almost like those are two of the most federally driven parts of the economy. Shocking how that happens.
This kind of "there is a relationship and therefore it is causal" logic is very bad. It's about on the same level as "so many people die in hospitals, we should shut them down so people live longer".
Of course the government intervenes in education and healthcare. They are fundamental parts of our society that are both extremely vulnerable to free market exploitation and necessary to stop the poor from rising up and killing the rich. The American dream and the idea that hard work and self belief result in success depends upon a solid foundation of good health and education.
|
Public university education is driven by governmental entities in the US. Those entities are the state legislatures and not the federal government though.
|
Please. You mean to tell me the government is setting these prices instead of the universities, banks, and insurance companies? Let be real here.
|
I would also point out that one of the main problems in both those industries is that they are necessary for the US to grown and function, but the government refuses to get hands on as to how they are run. The fact that many hospitals are privately owned and for profit is part of the problem. The government not being involved at all wouldn't help the situation, it would make it worse.
|
United States43964 Posts
On December 08 2015 03:54 cLutZ wrote:
On a side note, the French Trump (Marie Le Pen), they don't really have a traditional American Conservative party (just Socialists, and socialists who don't like immigration), just won.
The French elections haven't happened yet, they're on the 13th. This happened a few years ago with her father and is just how the electoral system works. There are multiple rounds in which the smaller fractured parties compete to make it into the final competition. Then once the minority parties are eliminated their supporters coalesce into a block for the least hated.
FN always do well in the first round and always get smashed in the second. Now maybe the attacks will have changed that but we don't know yet. All we know is that firstly, nobody has won anything, the election hasn't happened yet, and secondly, that what has happened so far has happened many times before and has never resulted in a FN win.
|
On December 08 2015 04:01 Kickstart wrote:
Please. You mean to tell me the government is setting these prices instead of the universities, banks, and insurance companies? Let be real here.
Somebody has to fund shitbag state house of representative campaigns 
|
Just seems the system in so many of these things that most consider necessities is setup to prey on people. Taking money from stupid or desperate people is fine in some instances but not when it relates to peoples education and health and not when the predatory system is seemingly backed by the government.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On December 08 2015 03:51 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2015 03:17 Kickstart wrote:
Please. The fact that our universities cost so much is ridiculous, same with healthcare. The reason prices are allowed to get so high is because they are allowed to charge whatever the hell they want for things and people will pay it. Even shitty online degrees can set people back tens of thousands of dollars, its such a joke. And lets hope no one gets seriously ill, your entire family will be forced into bankruptcy to keep you from losing your life or limbs.
Some things just shouldn't be purely profit driven. Its almost like those are two of the most federally driven parts of the economy. Shocking how that happens.
even without traesury backed student loans the price will still increase. maybe not to the exact magnitude but in taht situation you'll see the big money schools further separating themselves from the pack
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
