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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-24 11:52:22
May 24 2013 11:50 GMT
#5101
On May 24 2013 11:54 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2013 11:52 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
A bridge has collapsed in Washington state, how many more bridge collapses, gas lines exploding before we get an actual functioning stimulus/bank related to infrastructure?

Looks terrible, and reportedly there are still folk stuck in their cars in the water
[image loading]

Here's what I wrote less than 1 month ago:
There was also a civil engineer report a while back finding that a lot of bridges in American are structurally deficient. Money could be spent fixing those up. On this project, NPV calculations aren't needed, because the choice isn't whether to do the project or not. The bridge will eventually need to be patched up or it will collapse one day. The question is not "if" to do the project, the only question is "when" to do the project. And given the historically low rates at which the US government can borrow today, now is the best time for the investment.

Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408597&currentpage=7#123

As for the structurally deficient bridges, as the report says these bridges get millions of trips, so it's not like no one is using these bridges. While it's an option to wait a little bit longer, it's not acceptable to simply choose not to fix these bridges. Because then they'll eventually collapse.

Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408597&currentpage=9#167

And still we have people on this thread bickering about whether or not we should fix up bridges before they collapse.
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-24 12:11:51
May 24 2013 12:03 GMT
#5102
In an article I'm seeing, crash investigators are looking into an oversize vehicle that struck an overhead span.

Meantime, the state Department of Transportation says its engineers looking into an oversized, overheight vehicle striking a critical portion of the bridge span, spokesman Travis Phelps said.

http://www.goskagit.com/news/reports-bridge-collapses-between-mount-vernon-burlington/article_52637dd0-c417-11e2-bf59-001a4bcf887a.html



Another article, from their governor.

Gov. Jay Inslee headed to the scene to monitor the rescue efforts, and the National Transportation Safety Board said it was monitoring the situation as well.

Inslee later told a news conference that repairing the bridge is “job No. 1″ and that it’s unknown how long it will take to replace the bridge. I-5 is a main north-south arterial for northwestern Washington state.He said he will authorize the Transportation Department to establish detour routes to minimize impact on traffic and commerce.

“Witnesses say a truck hit the bridge and caused it to collapse, but an investigation has been launched to confirm that,” Inslee said. “Any witnesses or people with information should contact the State Patrol.

http://q13fox.com/2013/05/23/breaking-i-5-bridge-collapses-over-skagit-river-vehicles-people-in-water/#axzz2UDA1svNa
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
May 24 2013 12:10 GMT
#5103
On May 24 2013 20:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2013 11:54 farvacola wrote:
On May 24 2013 11:52 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
A bridge has collapsed in Washington state, how many more bridge collapses, gas lines exploding before we get an actual functioning stimulus/bank related to infrastructure?

Looks terrible, and reportedly there are still folk stuck in their cars in the water
[image loading]

Here's what I wrote less than 1 month ago:
Show nested quote +
There was also a civil engineer report a while back finding that a lot of bridges in American are structurally deficient. Money could be spent fixing those up. On this project, NPV calculations aren't needed, because the choice isn't whether to do the project or not. The bridge will eventually need to be patched up or it will collapse one day. The question is not "if" to do the project, the only question is "when" to do the project. And given the historically low rates at which the US government can borrow today, now is the best time for the investment.

Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408597&currentpage=7#123

Show nested quote +
As for the structurally deficient bridges, as the report says these bridges get millions of trips, so it's not like no one is using these bridges. While it's an option to wait a little bit longer, it's not acceptable to simply choose not to fix these bridges. Because then they'll eventually collapse.

Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408597&currentpage=9#167

And still we have people on this thread bickering about whether or not we should fix up bridges before they collapse.


soothsayer!
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
May 24 2013 12:17 GMT
#5104
On May 24 2013 21:03 RCMDVA wrote:
In an article I'm seeing, crash investigators are looking into an oversize vehicle that struck an overhead span.

Show nested quote +
Meantime, the state Department of Transportation says its engineers looking into an oversized, overheight vehicle striking a critical portion of the bridge span, spokesman Travis Phelps said.

http://www.goskagit.com/news/reports-bridge-collapses-between-mount-vernon-burlington/article_52637dd0-c417-11e2-bf59-001a4bcf887a.html



Another article, from their governor.

Show nested quote +
Gov. Jay Inslee headed to the scene to monitor the rescue efforts, and the National Transportation Safety Board said it was monitoring the situation as well.

Inslee later told a news conference that repairing the bridge is “job No. 1″ and that it’s unknown how long it will take to replace the bridge. I-5 is a main north-south arterial for northwestern Washington state.He said he will authorize the Transportation Department to establish detour routes to minimize impact on traffic and commerce.

“Witnesses say a truck hit the bridge and caused it to collapse, but an investigation has been launched to confirm that,” Inslee said. “Any witnesses or people with information should contact the State Patrol.

http://q13fox.com/2013/05/23/breaking-i-5-bridge-collapses-over-skagit-river-vehicles-people-in-water/#axzz2UDA1svNa

I would think that structurally sound bridges are designed to withstand earthquakes, let alone a measly truck hitting it.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
May 24 2013 12:19 GMT
#5105
On May 24 2013 14:27 Wegandi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2013 13:57 aksfjh wrote:
On May 24 2013 13:41 Introvert wrote:
Obamacare will be a disaster, it hasn't done a single good thing yet (the premium increase slowed? I'm fairly certain it was supposed to stop, at least that's what the pres. promised.)

if you want facts, here's a random one I remember from a while back.

http://news.yahoo.com/cbo-obamacare-price-tag-shifts-940-billion-1-163500655.html

President Obama's landmark healthcare overhaul is projected to cost $1.76 trillion over a decade, reports the Congressional Budget Office, a hefty sum more than the $940 billion estimated when the healthcare legislation was signed into law. To put it mildly, ObamaCare's projected net worth is far off from its original estimate -- in fact, about $820 billion off.


A simple google search shows more problems, but hey, when you have to pass a bill to find out what's in it, you are going to have some (many) bad apples!

I would love to hear some OTHER good things Obamacare has done that is worth the ridiculous price tag.

Prevented millions of 20-somethings from going medically uninsured in the worst employment environment since the 1930s, in which many have had to either get jobs without health benefits or be unemployed. In the coming years, the insurance exchanges should help these younger, healthier people afford health insurance even if companies don't offer it to them.


Making health insurance mandatory has prevented them from going medically uninsured...It is simply an imposition. Obamacare was probably the biggest Fascist-bill passed in the last 40 years if not more. I find it funny that so-called Progressives cheer this bill on when the giant Corp-insurers wrote the bill themselves. More of the same, but hey, if it's Blue-Team Fascism then it's A-OK just like Blue-Team Droning and same ol' same ol' Bushism's are A-OK. Kill-lists targeting American citizens...A-OK as long as it's Obama doing it!

Now, the point of this is to say that Obamacare will improve health care just as mandatory car insurance improves driver safety - hint: not at all!

Obamacare is terrible, yet better than nothing at all. If you wanted actual improvement you would implement single-payer public healthcare system. But that would be fascist , I guess all other first world countries are fascist. I doubt most liberals are happy with Obamacare, they just think it is slightly lesser evil than previous system.

And covering more people than before IS improvement of the healthcare system. Point of car insurance is only partially to improve driver safety, bigger one is to make sure that when you cause accident the victims of your driving are recompensated. Mandatory insurance in healthcare is motivated by moral reasons, as society sees it not desirable to leave people dying on the streets. And without mandatory insurance that will happen unless society covers the bill. It is better to force people to insure themselves than to force them to pay higher taxes/insurance to pay medical care for the irresponsible/parasites.

Also mandatory car insurance actually increases driver safety.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
May 24 2013 15:57 GMT
#5106
On May 24 2013 20:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2013 11:54 farvacola wrote:
On May 24 2013 11:52 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
A bridge has collapsed in Washington state, how many more bridge collapses, gas lines exploding before we get an actual functioning stimulus/bank related to infrastructure?

Looks terrible, and reportedly there are still folk stuck in their cars in the water
[image loading]

Here's what I wrote less than 1 month ago:
Show nested quote +
There was also a civil engineer report a while back finding that a lot of bridges in American are structurally deficient. Money could be spent fixing those up. On this project, NPV calculations aren't needed, because the choice isn't whether to do the project or not. The bridge will eventually need to be patched up or it will collapse one day. The question is not "if" to do the project, the only question is "when" to do the project. And given the historically low rates at which the US government can borrow today, now is the best time for the investment.

Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408597&currentpage=7#123

Show nested quote +
As for the structurally deficient bridges, as the report says these bridges get millions of trips, so it's not like no one is using these bridges. While it's an option to wait a little bit longer, it's not acceptable to simply choose not to fix these bridges. Because then they'll eventually collapse.

Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408597&currentpage=9#167

And still we have people on this thread bickering about whether or not we should fix up bridges before they collapse.

The bridge collapsed because a truck hit it (source). I don't see where a lack of government cheese is at fault...
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 24 2013 16:29 GMT
#5107
On May 25 2013 00:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2013 20:50 paralleluniverse wrote:
On May 24 2013 11:54 farvacola wrote:
On May 24 2013 11:52 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
A bridge has collapsed in Washington state, how many more bridge collapses, gas lines exploding before we get an actual functioning stimulus/bank related to infrastructure?

Looks terrible, and reportedly there are still folk stuck in their cars in the water
[image loading]

Here's what I wrote less than 1 month ago:
There was also a civil engineer report a while back finding that a lot of bridges in American are structurally deficient. Money could be spent fixing those up. On this project, NPV calculations aren't needed, because the choice isn't whether to do the project or not. The bridge will eventually need to be patched up or it will collapse one day. The question is not "if" to do the project, the only question is "when" to do the project. And given the historically low rates at which the US government can borrow today, now is the best time for the investment.

Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408597&currentpage=7#123

As for the structurally deficient bridges, as the report says these bridges get millions of trips, so it's not like no one is using these bridges. While it's an option to wait a little bit longer, it's not acceptable to simply choose not to fix these bridges. Because then they'll eventually collapse.

Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408597&currentpage=9#167

And still we have people on this thread bickering about whether or not we should fix up bridges before they collapse.

The bridge collapsed because a truck hit it (source). I don't see where a lack of government cheese is at fault...


Because the main danger of bridge collapses are not earthquakes, funding for repairs, but car accidents...
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
SayGen
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1209 Posts
May 24 2013 16:34 GMT
#5108
Mandatory insurance is a lose/lose

I should not be required to buy insurance on the condition that I breathe.

Insurance is a business. What is the purpose of business? To make money. PERIOD.
If I get into a wreck I can buy a new car, and unless the moron who is involved is in a brand new corvette I can buy his car too. I have no need for insurance- yet I am required to have it so some company can take money from me every month. What have I ever gotten in return from this company that I am forced to pay into---Nothing. If I really get fed up with this I can always not drive. I have 2 feet, I can do this amazing thing called walking-- It's really not as scary as people make it out to be. Been driving for nearly 14 years, never got a single insurance dime back. Thanks America for your useless taxes that are lowering my quality of life.

Health insurance I can not opt out of unless I take my life. Sadly this isn't going to happen.
I should not be required to pay into this system. I would gladly forfeit all my health benefits in exchange the government leaves me the hell alone. I'm not interested in the government giving money to a private business that doesn't do me any good. I am well equip to take care of my self. I am a competent adult, not a handicapped member of society or a child.
I hold myself and others to the same standard.

If you want insurance by all means I have no issue with you being stupid enough to get it. After all most people have no idea what a budget is and they model their spending behavior after Obama. Insurance at its very essence is a scam. A cons game. Even if you 'beat' the insurance game it's called fraud and they just sue you and jail you.
We Live to Die
HunterX11
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1048 Posts
May 24 2013 16:43 GMT
#5109
On May 25 2013 01:34 SayGen wrote:
If you want insurance by all means I have no issue with you being stupid enough to get it. After all most people have no idea what a budget is and they model their spending behavior after Obama. Insurance at its very essence is a scam. A cons game. Even if you 'beat' the insurance game it's called fraud and they just sue you and jail you.


I wish I could model my spending after Obama and just issue negative real interest bonds. Also if you are against even voluntarily having insurance, does that mean your ubermenschness extends to you even being immune from illness because of your superiority?
Try using both Irradiate and Defensive Matrix on an Overlord. It looks pretty neat.
SayGen
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1209 Posts
May 24 2013 16:50 GMT
#5110
On May 25 2013 01:43 HunterX11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2013 01:34 SayGen wrote:
If you want insurance by all means I have no issue with you being stupid enough to get it. After all most people have no idea what a budget is and they model their spending behavior after Obama. Insurance at its very essence is a scam. A cons game. Even if you 'beat' the insurance game it's called fraud and they just sue you and jail you.


I wish I could model my spending after Obama and just issue negative real interest bonds. Also if you are against even voluntarily having insurance, does that mean your ubermenschness extends to you even being immune from illness because of your superiority?


Not immune from illness, don't be absurd. I am just able to handle my health using the payments I put into healthcare with several thousand to spare--just like the vast majority of the population. If the majority of us didn't put more into the insurance system than we take out it wouldn't be solvent. Obv, you need to learn what a business is and how it operates.
I always cut out the middleman. Insurance is the middle man. I can find my own doctors and negotiate the price for my health care for SIGNIFICANTLY less than I pay into a health insurance system.

I'm not superior- I said I was competent. Sadly...now that I think about it----perhaps me being competent does make me superior to the average now-a-days............a sad state of affairs indeed......
We Live to Die
Trumpet
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States1935 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-24 16:55:07
May 24 2013 16:52 GMT
#5111
Car insurance isn't just about replacing cars. It pays for damages to people as a result of wrecks, health care costs among other things, which can easily be 10x the cost of replacing a car.

Edit: I really doubt what you claim you save or would save covers what happens when you suddenly develop cancer or an equivalent in your twenties. Or maybe you think that it just can't happen to you.
SayGen
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1209 Posts
May 24 2013 17:01 GMT
#5112
On May 25 2013 01:52 Trumpet wrote:
Car insurance isn't just about replacing cars. It pays for damages to people as a result of wrecks, health care costs among other things, which can easily be 10x the cost of replacing a car.


and why are those costs so high?

1) American Credentialism
2) American Insurance
3) Lack of free market principals in the healthcare system.
4) Absurd malpractice law suits

While America might have the greatest HC in the world-- even the Canadian PM came to America cause his own countries doctors were inferior-- it is important to note that our great medical knowledge doesn't mean it should cost 4-10X the rest of the worlds fees for equivalent care. Do you have any idea what open heart surgery in America costs? Look it up, then look up the cost of OHS in China. The procedure is EXACTLY the same--but the costs are out of sync entirely.

Stop all the people getting kickbacks, cut the middlemen, reduce unneeded Credentialism and costs will drop.

Insurance, as the whole of your argument, rests on the foundation that you are justifying bad behavior to cover up other bad behavior rather than to go after the source. Or to put it in medical terms-- you are treating the symptom not the disease.
We Live to Die
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
May 24 2013 17:05 GMT
#5113
Insurance is the mitigation of risk. My god, with your assumption that you're superior to everybody else and your lack of understanding of risk management, I hope that nobody ever has to rely on you for a job or sustenance.
SayGen
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1209 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-24 17:10:52
May 24 2013 17:10 GMT
#5114
On May 25 2013 02:05 aksfjh wrote:
Insurance is the mitigation of risk. My god, with your assumption that you're superior to everybody else and your lack of understanding of risk management, I hope that nobody ever has to rely on you for a job or sustenance.


Risk management and ORM are both concepts I'm quite familiar with.
You have failed to apply reading comprehension, you've missed my entire point.
I'd recommend you go back and read it again a little slower and with more focus this time.

Again, you are better off looking at your car insurance bill and taking that money and putting it in an account that generates enough interest to counter inflation (at a min, more is always better) than you are paying an insurance company. Period.

Cut the middleman, take care of yourself. Build capital.
It is you who doesn't understand Eco 101,202 or Business management 101,200
I'd recommend those classes to any person living in the civilized part of the world.

Edit: It is only when I have to deal with people like you that I feel superior. My peers are often ones that keep me in intellectual checkmate. Sadly your not on that level.



User was banned for this post.
We Live to Die
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-24 17:19:40
May 24 2013 17:14 GMT
#5115
On May 25 2013 02:01 SayGen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2013 01:52 Trumpet wrote:
Car insurance isn't just about replacing cars. It pays for damages to people as a result of wrecks, health care costs among other things, which can easily be 10x the cost of replacing a car.

+ Show Spoiler +

and why are those costs so high?

1) American Credentialism
2) American Insurance
3) Lack of free market principals in the healthcare system.
4) Absurd malpractice law suits

While America might have the greatest HC in the world-- even the Canadian PM came to America cause his own countries doctors were inferior-- it is important to note that our great medical knowledge doesn't mean it should cost 4-10X the rest of the worlds fees for equivalent care. Do you have any idea what open heart surgery in America costs? Look it up, then look up the cost of OHS in China. The procedure is EXACTLY the same--but the costs are out of sync entirely.

Stop all the people getting kickbacks, cut the middlemen, reduce unneeded Credentialism and costs will drop.

Insurance, as the whole of your argument, rests on the foundation that you are justifying bad behavior to cover up other bad behavior rather than to go after the source. Or to put it in medical terms-- you are treating the symptom not the disease.


Obviously, health care markets do not function like the ideal economic market. These markets do not meet all necessary or sufficient conditions for the ideal economic market. Therefore, there are numerous market failures and inefficiencies due to such failures. Moreover, the distribution of health and health care is not at a desired level. As a consequence, there have to be interventions in these markets to close gaps and improve efficiency. However, issues of economic efficiency, market structure, and whether the government has any role in the health care of its citizens can be a cause of bitter and divisive political debates (e.g. 2010 US Health policy reforms). Such debates tend to use economic theory without full disclosure of the assumptions made about the market. This is particularly true of arguments that support the market economy blindly without due consideration for market failures and their impact on economic efficiency and social welfare. The result is statements that sound true to a non-economist, but are totally false given that the wrong assumption has been made.

There is evidence that government control in health care can have desirable results in the form of better and equitable access to care and good health outcomes. Some of the more successful health care systems are government controlled with little influence from the market and others are very tightly regulated. A good example of a government controlled health care system is the Cuban system. It is built on a strong primary care foundation. It provides comprehensive health care to all its residents with nobody falling between the cracks.

Despite Cuba being a poor country, it attains health outcomes that are comparable and sometime better than those of rich economies such as the USA. For example, Cuba enjoys higher vaccination rates (99.9%); an excellent ability to control and quell epidemics effectively; high life expectancies (78–84 years), and low infant mortality rates. Despite being under a trade embargo, Cuba has developed a unique methods of treating illnesses such as Parkinson’s disease, retinitis pigmentosa, multiple sclerosis and other neurological disorders. It exports medical products such as vaccines. Consequently, Cuba attracts about 20,000 health tourists annually.

Cuba sends doctors to provide services all over the world and trains doctors from other countries through a programme of international giving and support. One fundamental difference between the Cuban system and market-based systems is the philosophy on which the system is built.

The philosophical question for any health care system is, “Should health care be traded for profit?” a question that relates back to an even more fundamental question, “Should health be treated as a human right or as a commodity that can be traded for profit?” The Cuban system is built on the belief that health care is a human right that should be accessible to all. Based on this belief, the system is set up to make sure that health care is accessible to all Cubans.

The fundamental philosophy governing the health care system in any country is reflected in the kind of system that is in place to provide care. If a country treats health and access to care as a basic human right for its citizens, then the question of profit maximisation would be a non-issue. The health care system would have a different objective function with a slightly different focus. Efficiency in health care markets would be judged by a different standard because then the objective function of the health care system would be different from a typical economics objective function. The structure of the health care system and its distribution patterns and channels would also be different and would reflect the system’s basic philosophy about health and health care.

Efficiency in health care does not always lend itself to market forces because health care takes on properties of merit goods. Consumption of such goods is desirable because the social benefits exceed the private benefits, i.e. there are positive externalities. Like education, health can be viewed as capital stock or human capital. According to Grossman, each individual is endowed with a stock of health which depreciates over time, but the individual has the ability to increase this stock through healthy behaviour such as good diet, accessing health care and preventive measures.

The stock of health is a merit good because an individual’s health has an effect on the rest of society. A healthy population provides a productive labour force that builds a country’s economy. An individual sees the benefits of being healthy, but might not necessarily see the benefits of his/her good health to the rest of society, i.e. the private benefits of good health are less than the societal benefits. So an individual’s decision about the optimal level of their health might be less than optimal considering the larger societal benefits. This is also true of education and that is why the governments play a big role in it. If merit goods are left to the private sector—or the market, there is under-consumption (e.g. vaccination) and therefore, inefficiency.

Moreover, other desirable features in a country might not be attainable through market forces alone. For example, if health and health care equity are desirable features, there might be need for government intervention because these qualities are not easily attained through the market. Government involvement in health care is often necessary because there are many market failures in health care and the market is not always able to correct such failures.


Health Care Market Deviations from the Ideal Market


The public policy and current political action around changing the system overlooks two important technical fallacies:

(1) That health care is most efficiently distributed by a free market mechanism; and,
(2) That medical services are an ordinary commodity.

The commercial market model is a failing economic and public policy ideology used to rationalize and justify corporate control of the health care system to profit from the enterprise. Medical services are not an ordinary commodity but more like a “public good” which should be financed using a regulated public utility model.

A “public good” is a product or service which benefits everyone in the community. Public goods are characterized by: (1) value that has benefit to the community as a whole beyond any purchase price paid, (2) often requiring large initial investment costs that are generally too expensive for any individual or private corporation to afford and earn a reasonable return, (3) requiring a higher level of administration than any individual or company can arrange and (4) having value that accrues over time and is difficult to price properly. Public goods have “externalities,” that is, value that accrues to people who benefit by other’s consumption of them without paying for it themselves.

It is crucial to know the epidemiology of medical expenses. In fact, 1% of the total population consumes 25% of medical care (by cost), 5% of the population consumes 49% and 50% of the population consumes only 3% of medical care by cost. Since relatively few people incur rare, huge, often catastrophic costs on a largely unexpected basis, pooling of risk is necessary. And the bigger the insurance pool is, the better it functions economically.

By definition “public goods” are not well distributed by market mechanisms. Americans are very accepting of some public goods, i.e. police and fire departments, national military forces, the GPS system, water distribution and sewage treatment plants, education, radio frequencies and the internet. Looked at from an economic and a public policy perspective, health services are the epitome of a “public good.” This is what is meant by the phrase “Health Care is A Human Right!” Hospitals, ambulance systems, mosquito control, TB control, restaurant inspections, sanitation, and vaccines are all good examples.


Is health care a public good?
I've emboldened some important segments, if you'd like further evidence based on facts rather than silly opinions, let me know. Your opinions are, yet again, founded on availability heuristics that are distinctly illogical. If you've any actual evidence that healthcare and the free market are compatible, feel free to post them.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
May 24 2013 17:16 GMT
#5116
On May 25 2013 02:10 SayGen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2013 02:05 aksfjh wrote:
Insurance is the mitigation of risk. My god, with your assumption that you're superior to everybody else and your lack of understanding of risk management, I hope that nobody ever has to rely on you for a job or sustenance.


Risk management and ORM are both concepts I'm quite familiar with.
You have failed to apply reading comprehension, you've missed my entire point.
I'd recommend you go back and read it again a little slower and with more focus this time.

Again, you are better off looking at your car insurance bill and taking that money and putting it in an account that generates enough interest to counter inflation (at a min, more is always better) than you are paying an insurance company. Period.

Cut the middleman, take care of yourself. Build capital.
It is you who doesn't understand Eco 101,202 or Business management 101,200
I'd recommend those classes to any person living in the civilized part of the world.

Edit: It is only when I have to deal with people like you that I feel superior. My peers are often ones that keep me in intellectual checkmate. Sadly your not on that level.


I like this thread to read the opinions of intelligent people on both sides. You're making it hard to read.
dude bro.
BioNova
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States598 Posts
May 24 2013 17:17 GMT
#5117
On May 24 2013 16:30 Wegandi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2013 16:24 farvacola wrote:
On May 24 2013 16:15 Wegandi wrote:
On May 24 2013 15:57 Sub40APM wrote:
On May 24 2013 15:41 Wegandi wrote:
On May 24 2013 15:27 farvacola wrote:
On May 24 2013 15:24 hzflank wrote:
On May 24 2013 15:20 farvacola wrote:
On May 24 2013 15:16 hzflank wrote:
On May 24 2013 11:54 farvacola wrote:
[quote]
Looks terrible, and reportedly there are still folk stuck in their cars in the water
[image loading]


In my opinion, that should be completely down to local authorities. It's not a good idea for the federal government to micro-manage to such a degree (I know that you did not say it was). Do you guys pay local county taxes? Road tax?

Roadways do not work in the US as they do in the UK, and scale has everything to do with it. I-5 is an interstate highway, owned and operated by the federal government. For some reference read this.
Interstate Highway System


Okay, it looks like it should be managed at state level and paid for by fuel taxes. It looks like fuel taxes may not be high enough to fully cover the costs though.

It isn't that simple though. If you look at that network of highways, there are segments in which the roads value is insignificant to the state it is in relative to the value provided to those it connects. If left only to the states, there would be far less incentive to connect in this manner, and this becomes even more troubling when one considers how many states are slashing budgets left and right without considering the consequences.


That assumes that the only choice is either State or Federal, but I propose as Walter Block has put better than me, to once again return infrastructure and especially internal improvements to market-forces (property rights). I bet most people never knew that there were over 45,000 roads in the country in the 19th Century and over 90% of them were privately owned and operated. This begs the question then - how to get from where we are to there. I propose that using Lockean homesteading and chain of contract principles that local roadways would go to the local residents whom payed the taxes in a partnership structure and that federal roadways would be auctioned off and the monies dispersed back to whom payed for the roads in the first place. Of course there would have to be a large reform movement to abolish the burdens, regulatory structures, and other impositions against that particular industry so as to make entry into the industry as free (market cost) as possible.

The problem is far too many people in the US have a very Soviet mentality when it comes to certain goods and services, that is ever expanding.

How many interstates were there in the 19th century? is the number you looking for is 0? Yes, yes I believe it is. Private infrastructure development -- specifically railroads -- in both the United Kingdom and the United States frequently led to financial bubbles, overbuilding and a generally under-developed infrastructure system that served primarily for the benefit of the monopolist who dominated it.


Beyond the fact that the Great Northern Railroad showed the exact opposite (the only private railroad of the 19th Century in America) of what you think happened, I'm intrigued to hear you explain how you reconcile the fact you said that such infrastructure was simultaneously overbuilt and yet, under-developed. I'll save time to link academic papers, since this should suffice;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_Railway_(U.S.)

Never mind the fact that the same happened with postal delivery, where Lysander Spooner's mail company absolutely destroyed the USPS. Here we have two prime examples of completely market forces without Government intervention providing higher quality service at lower prices compared to their Fascist counter-parts, which are so often parroted as being 'great and necessary'. Au contraire. They're schemes designed to enrich both parties at the expense of the consumer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Letter_Mail_Company

I leave it at that for now.

The American Letter Mail Company was able to reduce the price of its stamps significantly and even offered free local delivery, significantly undercutting the 12-cent stamp being sold by the Post Office Department. The federal government treated this as a criminal act:


Those evil evil capitalists!

And where is the evidence that the successes of those ventures were not due to their existence alongside government programs and instead in spite of them?


It is up to you to prove that point, but you're going to have a hard time considering neither venture took a penny of Government money, nor exercised any Government privilege. I'm all ears to hear how you lay their success at the feet of Government though.


Nice to see you Wegandi, behave long and prosper. Don't steal, the government hates competition.
Ben Bernacke to congress.
“In particular,” his testimony says, “the expiration of the payroll tax cut, the enactment of tax increases, the effects of the budget caps on discretionary spending, the onset of sequestration, and the declines in defense spending for overseas military operations are expected, collectively, to exert a substantial drag on the economy this year.”

He adds that with the Fed’s interest rate policies already near zero, “monetary policy does not have the capacity to fully offset an economic headwind of this magnitude.”

It might be one thing if the fiscal retrenchment was also solving the country’s longer-term deficits. But, Bernanke says, it has not. “Although near-term fiscal restraint has increased, much less has been done to address the federal government’s longer-term fiscal imbalances,” he says in the prepared testimony. “Indeed, the [Congressional Budget Office] projects that, under current policies, the federal deficit and debt as a percentage of GDP will begin rising again in the latter part of this decade and move sharply upward thereafter.”


Here I was hoping to get a extra % on my savings. No dice.
Source
I used to like trumpets, now I prefer pause. "Don't move a muscle JP!"
Melliflue
Profile Joined October 2012
United Kingdom1389 Posts
May 24 2013 17:17 GMT
#5118
On May 25 2013 02:01 SayGen wrote:
While America might have the greatest HC in the world

Where do you get that from? I used the WHO to compare some health stats of the US to Germany (where I live) and the UK (since the UK has the NHS). The US has a lower life expectancy, higher rate of deaths for under-5s, and is more expensive per person.
Sources; US, UK, Germany

Do you have any idea what open heart surgery in America costs? Look it up, then look up the cost of OHS in China. The procedure is EXACTLY the same--but the costs are out of sync entirely.

A lot of things are cheaper in China. Food for instance. You would need to normalise the costs in China to say what OHS would cost in China if other things in China cost the same as in the US.

Insurance, as the whole of your argument, rests on the foundation that you are justifying bad behavior to cover up other bad behavior rather than to go after the source. Or to put it in medical terms-- you are treating the symptom not the disease.

I thought insurance (at least health insurance) was about how if someone becomes very sick then the medical costs would bankrupt them so their medical costs are subsidised by everyone else who isn't sick. The insurance companies make money for organising all of this and negotiating prices for drugs etc. (insurance companies can get cheaper prices because they are big customers, individuals would have to pay a higher price).

Personally I'm in favour of universal health care though.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21664 Posts
May 24 2013 17:20 GMT
#5119
Congratulation tomorrow your diagnosed with cancer, your now paying several thousand dollars a month in medicine and treatment. Oh wait you cant afford that for long enough. oh well enjoy your slow agonizing death, thank god you didn't waste any money on health insurance.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-24 17:44:05
May 24 2013 17:41 GMT
#5120
On May 25 2013 02:17 BioNova wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2013 16:30 Wegandi wrote:
On May 24 2013 16:24 farvacola wrote:
On May 24 2013 16:15 Wegandi wrote:
On May 24 2013 15:57 Sub40APM wrote:
On May 24 2013 15:41 Wegandi wrote:
On May 24 2013 15:27 farvacola wrote:
On May 24 2013 15:24 hzflank wrote:
On May 24 2013 15:20 farvacola wrote:
On May 24 2013 15:16 hzflank wrote:
[quote]

In my opinion, that should be completely down to local authorities. It's not a good idea for the federal government to micro-manage to such a degree (I know that you did not say it was). Do you guys pay local county taxes? Road tax?

Roadways do not work in the US as they do in the UK, and scale has everything to do with it. I-5 is an interstate highway, owned and operated by the federal government. For some reference read this.
Interstate Highway System


Okay, it looks like it should be managed at state level and paid for by fuel taxes. It looks like fuel taxes may not be high enough to fully cover the costs though.

It isn't that simple though. If you look at that network of highways, there are segments in which the roads value is insignificant to the state it is in relative to the value provided to those it connects. If left only to the states, there would be far less incentive to connect in this manner, and this becomes even more troubling when one considers how many states are slashing budgets left and right without considering the consequences.


That assumes that the only choice is either State or Federal, but I propose as Walter Block has put better than me, to once again return infrastructure and especially internal improvements to market-forces (property rights). I bet most people never knew that there were over 45,000 roads in the country in the 19th Century and over 90% of them were privately owned and operated. This begs the question then - how to get from where we are to there. I propose that using Lockean homesteading and chain of contract principles that local roadways would go to the local residents whom payed the taxes in a partnership structure and that federal roadways would be auctioned off and the monies dispersed back to whom payed for the roads in the first place. Of course there would have to be a large reform movement to abolish the burdens, regulatory structures, and other impositions against that particular industry so as to make entry into the industry as free (market cost) as possible.

The problem is far too many people in the US have a very Soviet mentality when it comes to certain goods and services, that is ever expanding.

How many interstates were there in the 19th century? is the number you looking for is 0? Yes, yes I believe it is. Private infrastructure development -- specifically railroads -- in both the United Kingdom and the United States frequently led to financial bubbles, overbuilding and a generally under-developed infrastructure system that served primarily for the benefit of the monopolist who dominated it.


Beyond the fact that the Great Northern Railroad showed the exact opposite (the only private railroad of the 19th Century in America) of what you think happened, I'm intrigued to hear you explain how you reconcile the fact you said that such infrastructure was simultaneously overbuilt and yet, under-developed. I'll save time to link academic papers, since this should suffice;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_Railway_(U.S.)

Never mind the fact that the same happened with postal delivery, where Lysander Spooner's mail company absolutely destroyed the USPS. Here we have two prime examples of completely market forces without Government intervention providing higher quality service at lower prices compared to their Fascist counter-parts, which are so often parroted as being 'great and necessary'. Au contraire. They're schemes designed to enrich both parties at the expense of the consumer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Letter_Mail_Company

I leave it at that for now.

The American Letter Mail Company was able to reduce the price of its stamps significantly and even offered free local delivery, significantly undercutting the 12-cent stamp being sold by the Post Office Department. The federal government treated this as a criminal act:


Those evil evil capitalists!

And where is the evidence that the successes of those ventures were not due to their existence alongside government programs and instead in spite of them?


It is up to you to prove that point, but you're going to have a hard time considering neither venture took a penny of Government money, nor exercised any Government privilege. I'm all ears to hear how you lay their success at the feet of Government though.


Nice to see you Wegandi, behave long and prosper. Don't steal, the government hates competition.
Ben Bernacke to congress.
Show nested quote +
“In particular,” his testimony says, “the expiration of the payroll tax cut, the enactment of tax increases, the effects of the budget caps on discretionary spending, the onset of sequestration, and the declines in defense spending for overseas military operations are expected, collectively, to exert a substantial drag on the economy this year.”

He adds that with the Fed’s interest rate policies already near zero, “monetary policy does not have the capacity to fully offset an economic headwind of this magnitude.”

It might be one thing if the fiscal retrenchment was also solving the country’s longer-term deficits. But, Bernanke says, it has not. “Although near-term fiscal restraint has increased, much less has been done to address the federal government’s longer-term fiscal imbalances,” he says in the prepared testimony. “Indeed, the [Congressional Budget Office] projects that, under current policies, the federal deficit and debt as a percentage of GDP will begin rising again in the latter part of this decade and move sharply upward thereafter.”


Here I was hoping to get a extra % on my savings. No dice.
Source

Increasing the Fed interest rate wouldn't likely increase the % gains on your savings. You might see your real savings appreciate with the deflation we'd see from increased rates, but without a strongly diversified portfolio, your gains would be eroded by the cost of living that wouldn't decline to match your decline in wages.

His assessment is what a lot of us expected and knew already. It's getting to the point now where we all know what all the arguments are and what evidence there is to support it, and what we expect to happen when we pull the same economic levers throughout the world. We're basically running Euro-lite right now, which means slower growth. We need to be watching Japan throughout the next year to see what robust fiscal and monetary policy can do for the economy, compared to some form of austerity.

On May 25 2013 02:20 Gorsameth wrote:
Congratulation tomorrow your diagnosed with cancer, your now paying several thousand dollars a month in medicine and treatment. Oh wait you cant afford that for long enough. oh well enjoy your slow agonizing death, thank god you didn't waste any money on health insurance.

He'll have to cash in all that gold he buried in his backyard. Or maybe he's a bitcoin guy, so he'll have to hope his health holds out long enough for him to cash out on one of the high swings that comes about every few months.
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