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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
October 09 2015 05:38 GMT
#47581
Why is issuing bonds and spending money on legislated programs supposed to be hard?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Jayme
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States5866 Posts
October 09 2015 06:10 GMT
#47582
Debt ceiling discussion getting so old. It's all a political ploy to get leverage where there shouldn't really be any. It's money we are already spending. Congress consistently passes budgets that basically require debt adjustment as its pretty much way out of the range of any tax variation. I can't believe the lawmakers are still making this a thing
Python is garbage, number 1 advocate of getting rid of it.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-09 07:00:43
October 09 2015 06:51 GMT
#47583
On October 09 2015 14:38 IgnE wrote:
Why is issuing bonds and spending money on legislated programs supposed to be hard?


Hard, in American government parlance, is a synonym for bicameral passage + presidential signature + (sometimes) supreme court review.

Edit: Specifically, the method of issuing bonds contemplated by the founders, and the relevant amenders of the Constitution was we issue $XXX dollars of bonds, at %YYY interest rate, for ZZZ purpose.

I do not personally agree that this is a particularly strong argument that the debt ceiling is unconstitutional, but it is certainly stronger than the argument that it can be ignored in favor of other Article 1 powers.

Edit #2. As an illustrative example, if someone said, "The debt ceiling is unconstitutional" you would be more correct to say, "Yes, of course, Congress should have to issue Medicare, Social Security, and Defense Bonds that specifically fund those programs" than if you said "Yes, it is a nullity because the spending power supercedes it."
Freeeeeeedom
zf
Profile Joined April 2011
231 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-09 13:14:48
October 09 2015 13:03 GMT
#47584
On October 09 2015 12:49 cLutZ wrote:[T]he debt ceiling is more likely to be unconstitutional because it makes issuing bonds and spending the money raised too easy, rather than making it too hard.


So what? They'd argue that if the President were placed in a similar situation under the pre-debt-ceiling regime, the same analysis would apply. Whether the debt ceiling makes it easier or harder to spend is neither here nor there. What matters for the purposes of their argument is that the combination of laws makes it impossible for the President to act constitutionally.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 09 2015 13:08 GMT
#47585
On October 09 2015 22:03 zf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2015 12:49 cLutZ wrote:[T]he debt ceiling is more likely to be unconstitutional because it makes issuing bonds and spending the money raised too easy, rather than making it too hard.


So what? They'd argue that if the President were placed in a similar situation under the pre-debt-ceiling regime, the same analysis would apply. Whether the debt ceiling makes it easier or harder to spend is neither here nor there. What matters is that the combination of laws makes it impossible for the President to act constitutionally.

The debt ceiling was never created to keep spending in check. It role is to keep the treasury from going rogue. This issue came up when the tea party saw the word "debt ceiling" and realized they could use it as leverage. Of course, they voted to spend the money in the first place, but lets not get caught up in the details.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
October 09 2015 14:54 GMT
#47586
http://time.com/4067501/ben-carson-holocaust-popeyes/

“I think the likelihood of Hitler being able to accomplish his goals would have been greatly diminished if the people had been armed,” Carson said. “I’m telling you there is a reason these dictatorial people take guns first.”

Carson also partly blames the horror of the Holocaust on Nazi gun control laws in his latest book, A Perfect Union, but his statements Thursday, along with many others he’s made this week on guns, were swiftly attacked.

According to ABC News, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) said Carson’s statements were “historically inaccurate.”

“The small number of personal firearms available to Germany’s Jews in 1938 could in no way have stopped the totalitarian power of the Nazi German state,” said ADL national director Jonathan Greenblatt.


Ben Carson is doing a wonderful job of being a quote machine.
Yargh
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
October 09 2015 14:56 GMT
#47587
Maybe you poll better the more quotable you are?
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 09 2015 14:59 GMT
#47588
On October 09 2015 23:54 JinDesu wrote:
http://time.com/4067501/ben-carson-holocaust-popeyes/

Show nested quote +
“I think the likelihood of Hitler being able to accomplish his goals would have been greatly diminished if the people had been armed,” Carson said. “I’m telling you there is a reason these dictatorial people take guns first.”

Carson also partly blames the horror of the Holocaust on Nazi gun control laws in his latest book, A Perfect Union, but his statements Thursday, along with many others he’s made this week on guns, were swiftly attacked.

According to ABC News, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) said Carson’s statements were “historically inaccurate.”

“The small number of personal firearms available to Germany’s Jews in 1938 could in no way have stopped the totalitarian power of the Nazi German state,” said ADL national director Jonathan Greenblatt.


Ben Carson is doing a wonderful job of being a quote machine.

Jesus, he is a Onion article. I guess he missed the part where the other Allied nations had guns and it was pretty rough for them. Or all the armed resistance that did take place and only manages to save a small number of people. But facts are not really something Benny likes to deal with.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
October 09 2015 15:09 GMT
#47589
Trevor Noah did a pretty good segment on Ben Carson the other night

+ Show Spoiler +
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43753 Posts
October 09 2015 15:31 GMT
#47590
I'm pretty sure an armed population with guns did stop Hitler. Admittedly they were Russians but still, the main thing is that an armed population works.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 09 2015 15:36 GMT
#47591
On October 10 2015 00:31 KwarK wrote:
I'm pretty sure an armed population with guns did stop Hitler. Admittedly they were Russians but still, the main thing is that an armed population works.

It took several armed populations and a whole bunch of people dying. Also that whole trip into Russia. I don't think a bunch of German and Polish Jews with hunting rifles and would have made much of a dent.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
October 09 2015 15:41 GMT
#47592
A militia would be the equivalent of a spearman in Civ4 against a fighter jet these days.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 09 2015 15:48 GMT
#47593
Watching cspan reminded me of a change to the House rules I think should probably be done:

When it's time for a debate on a topic, if noone wishes to actually claim time to oppose the bill/amendment, you just go directly on to voting. While speeches are nice, there's a lot of work to be done, and if there's no real opposition, I think you can skip the speeches and just vote.
And if people want to add messages of support, just let them add them into the congressional record in a written form or something.

Whereas what happens now, is someone asks for there to be no objection for them to claim the opposition time, without opposing the bill, so they can have some people speak in support of it (and maybe ramble on some other stuff); in these cases it has of course been planned for, so noone objects and they get to do it.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 09 2015 15:56 GMT
#47594
FRANKFORT, Ky. — Rand Paul is under increasing pressure from Republicans here and in Washington to pull the plug on his stagnant presidential campaign and instead recommit his resources to keeping his Senate seat in GOP hands.

D.C. Republicans think Paul's poll numbers have flat-lined — and operatives worried about retaining control of the Senate are ready for him to start spending a lot more time in Kentucky and a lot less time in Iowa and New Hampshire.

"This presidential dream needs to come to an end," said a national Republican strategist, granted anonymity to discuss Paul's situation candidly. "Senate Republicans can’t afford to have a competitive race in Kentucky."

Paul, however, is showing little sign of giving up. Even with poll numbers so low that he might not appear on the main stage for the third GOP debate and his fundraising slowing to a crawl, Paul has a message for those who say it's time to suspend his run for the White House and focus on his Senate reelection: I can handle both.

Paul arrived at a recent campaign event here for GOP gubernatorial nominee to a uniformly positive and presidential-focused reception. The approximately 60 people who trudged to the basement of a Baptist ministry across the street from Kentucky State University welcomed Paul with chants of "President Paul! President Paul!" Many attendees wore T-shirts and signs emblazoned with Paul's torch-like presidential campaign logo.

Rep. Andy Barr (R-Ky.) introduced Paul as "our candidate for president of the United States." GOP gubernatorial nominee Matt Bevin said the first-term senator "would be an extraordinary president of the United States."

"Who would say such a thing? Rebuke them!" Paul sarcastically told reporters after the event who asked about suggestions that he drop out and focus on his Senate reelection. "They don't know anything about politics. They all write for a living."

Asked directly if he was worried about his Senate seat, Paul was blunt: "No."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
October 09 2015 16:08 GMT
#47595
That argument that it provides protection against gov abuse justifying gun ownership seems so outdated. What revolution in this day and age would be viable without help from the military (or outside forces shipping in weapons)? Those open carry yokels who walk around with assault rifles in public places would not do jack shit if the US gov actually decided to suppress its people. Being armed or not wouldn't make much of a difference.
Never Knows Best.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43753 Posts
October 09 2015 16:14 GMT
#47596
Then how did Texas defeat Jade Helm when Obama tried to force Texas to become a US state?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22164 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-09 16:20:03
October 09 2015 16:19 GMT
#47597
On October 10 2015 01:08 Slaughter wrote:
That argument that it provides protection against gov abuse justifying gun ownership seems so outdated. What revolution in this day and age would be viable without help from the military (or outside forces shipping in weapons)? Those open carry yokels who walk around with assault rifles in public places would not do jack shit if the US gov actually decided to suppress its people. Being armed or not wouldn't make much of a difference.

As Kwark said your talking about a group of people who believed that a Military exercise in Texas was a cover for an occupation by the US military of a US state.
A group of people who somehow have enough weight behind them to get the Governor to ask the National Guard to monitor the Military.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 09 2015 16:23 GMT
#47598
On October 10 2015 01:19 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2015 01:08 Slaughter wrote:
That argument that it provides protection against gov abuse justifying gun ownership seems so outdated. What revolution in this day and age would be viable without help from the military (or outside forces shipping in weapons)? Those open carry yokels who walk around with assault rifles in public places would not do jack shit if the US gov actually decided to suppress its people. Being armed or not wouldn't make much of a difference.

As Kwark said your talking about a group of people who believed that a Military exercise in Texas was a cover for an occupation by the US military of a US state.
A group of people who somehow have enough weight behind them to get the Governor to ask the National Guard to monitor the Military.

So they assigned a guy to call the army and be like "Yo, where you guys at?" and then go hang out? That was nothing by lip service to a small group of people with to much time.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22164 Posts
October 09 2015 16:25 GMT
#47599
On October 10 2015 01:23 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 10 2015 01:19 Gorsameth wrote:
On October 10 2015 01:08 Slaughter wrote:
That argument that it provides protection against gov abuse justifying gun ownership seems so outdated. What revolution in this day and age would be viable without help from the military (or outside forces shipping in weapons)? Those open carry yokels who walk around with assault rifles in public places would not do jack shit if the US gov actually decided to suppress its people. Being armed or not wouldn't make much of a difference.

As Kwark said your talking about a group of people who believed that a Military exercise in Texas was a cover for an occupation by the US military of a US state.
A group of people who somehow have enough weight behind them to get the Governor to ask the National Guard to monitor the Military.

So they assigned a guy to call the army and be like "Yo, where you guys at?" and then go hang out? That was nothing by lip service to a small group of people with to much time.

The fact that your "small group" wasn't outright ignored is telling enough.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 09 2015 16:35 GMT
#47600
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) plans to announce his opposition Friday to President Obama’s nominee to lead the Food and Drug Administration, citing questions about Dr. Robert M. Califf’s commitment to lowering pharmaceutical prices.

Sanders, who is mounting a surprisingly strong bid for the Democratic presidential nomination against Hillary Rodham Clinton, told The Washington Post that he spoke by phone last week with Califf and came away unconvinced that he is the right person for the job of commissioner.

“At a time when millions of Americans cannot afford to purchase the prescription drugs they need, we need a new leader at the FDA who is prepared to stand up to the pharmaceutical companies and work to substantially lower drug prices,” Sanders said in a statement. “Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion that Dr. Califf is not that person.”

Califf, a prominent cardiologist and longtime researcher at Duke University, joined the FDA earlier this year as a deputy commissioner. When Obama announced his nomination for the top post, Califf drew praise from some health groups, but his close ties to the pharmaceutical industry have been a source of controversy.

A 2014 financial disclosure showed Califf’s salary at Duke was underwritten partly by funding from large drug makers such as Eli Lilly, Novartis and Merck. He also reported receiving fees from a range of other pharmaceutical companies, which a government spokesman said were donated to charities.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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