• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 14:25
CET 20:25
KST 04:25
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175Evil Geniuses - shutting down23ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier7Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1
StarCraft 2
General
No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon [D] Hacker peak in sc2 ? Liquibets sc2 season 30 Evil Geniuses - shutting down
Tourneys
SC4ALL: II Venue Change Announcement! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps Starcraft 2 Advance [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
Mutation # 551 Robotic Revival Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles
Brood War
General
List of top players active on ShieldBattery Rollback Netcode in Brood War Sagi.gg Launcher Released BW General Discussion [Megathread] Daily Funny Videos
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [$1250] International ShieldBattery League Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Strategy
50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Stratus: Battle for the sky now on steam Early acc Deus Ex 3!?
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10122 users

US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2379

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2377 2378 2379 2380 2381 10093 Next
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Cowboy64
Profile Joined April 2015
115 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-08 23:34:49
October 08 2015 23:32 GMT
#47561
On October 09 2015 08:27 Slaughter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2015 08:09 Cowboy64 wrote:
On October 08 2015 11:57 ticklishmusic wrote:
Reasonable accommodation vs undue burden, materially stopping the operations of your employer kinda counts as undue burden. It's an incredibly easy legal argument.

Well this is a slightly dishonest portrayal of the situation by you. If she was granted her religious accommodation then the operations of the employer would continue without a hitch.

As for the legal basis (this was posted earlier, but seemed to be ignored in favor of continuing to demonize her)

http://www.lrc.ky.gov/lrcpubs/ib114.pdf

County judges/executive may perform marriage ceremonies. They may also authorize justices of
the peace and fiscal court commissioners in their respective counties to perform marriages
(KRS 402.050). In the absence of the county clerk, the county judge/executive may issue a
marriage license (KRS 402.240).


(This is proof that there would be no "undue burden" in letting someone else sign the marriage licenses.)

As for her constitutional right to an accomodation:

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/religion.cfm

The law requires an employer or other covered entity to reasonably accommodate an employee's religious beliefs or practices, unless doing so would cause more than a minimal burden on the operations of the employer's business. This means an employer may be required to make reasonable adjustments to the work environment that will allow an employee to practice his or her religion.

Examples of some common religious accommodations include flexible scheduling, voluntary shift substitutions or swaps, job reassignments, and modifications to workplace policies or practices.


As I said before, you can hate her opinion and think that she is a filthy bigot all you want, but she does have the right to request a religious accommodation, and it will be very difficult for you or anyone else to suggest that simply authorizing another clerk to sign the licenses and removing her name from them would be an "undue burden". Especially since they already did authorize other clerks to issue licenses while she was in prison. Even moreso when the alternative was the prosecution and imprisonment of her, which quite obviously poses a greater cost and burden upon the state. Removing her name from the licenses (which would be quite simple, as you will see if you read the first link above) would solve the issue.

The only other reason to deny her this accommodation is a desire to see her punished. Such a desire flies in the face of the "rule of law" argument that was being bandied about as defense for imprisoning her.





She was a dick about it and tried to not only get her name removed (which is fine, no one gives a shit if she is accommodated in this way) but the main problem was she still tried to retain control sending out messages through her lawyers that licenses aren't valid without her stamp. She also simply could have used this power to designate other individuals to do this BUT SHE DID NOT DO THAT. She expressly shut down giving all licenses and didn't allow any of her deputys to give them out. She is trying to have it both ways to abuse her position to discriminate against homosexuals. Not to mention the groups working with her have been pretty shady as fuck trying to spin shit. Like that whole BS story about meeting the pope and getting his approval.

If she had simply asked for the accommodation and hadn't made a huge fuss about it no one would have cared, she wouldn't have been sued and this isn't a story. Instead she used this situation to try to grand stand for her viewpoint.

Correction: she said that the licences being issued in her name were not valid without the stamp. She was technically correct, they weren't valid. However, if she received her accommodation than the licenses would be valid without the stamp because it would no longer be issued under her authority. Basically, as long as they issue them under her authority, than they do need her signature (obviously). If they are no longer issued under her authority, than they would not need her signature (which was the accommodation she asked for: that they not be issued under her authority).

I am terrible at explaining myself, so if there is any further confusion, please let me know and I'll try to explain it better.

edit: my understanding is that she maintains that her giving them authority is the same as her authorizing the licenses. She prefers if someone else gives them that authority so she can "wash her hands", so to speak, from the matter. Since there are literally dozens of people who can do just that, I don't see a problem.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22703 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-08 23:39:11
October 08 2015 23:37 GMT
#47562
On October 09 2015 08:29 Cowboy64 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2015 08:22 Plansix wrote:
On October 09 2015 08:20 Cowboy64 wrote:
On October 09 2015 03:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On October 09 2015 03:00 QuanticHawk wrote:
On October 09 2015 02:33 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On October 09 2015 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-Bakersfield) stunned lawmakers Thursday by abruptly announcing that he was withdrawing from the race to become the next House speaker.

The California Republican, who was having trouble convincing GOP conservatives to support him, said the party needs a fresh face to take over after current Speaker John. A. Boenher steps down later this month.
Lawmakers had settled in for a long session over BBQ sandwiches when McCarthy stood up told his peers he wasnt the right candidate at this moment for the speakers job.

"He simply said that he didn't want it to be divisive and when it came to running for speaker, [that] he’s not the guy," said Rep. John Fleming of Louisiana, member of the Freedom Caucus.

With Congress on recess next week, another round of nomination voting is not expected until the week of Oct 19 at the soonest.

McCarthy's stunning withdrawal leaves the House GOP in disarray. Though it averts what could have been a nasty, contested leadership fight, it leaves unanswered the question of who might step in to unite the party.

McCarthy's bid for the post was hurt after a high-profile TV stumble in which he appeared to suggest that the GOP-led House investigation into the 2012 Benghazi attack was partly aimed at weakening Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Rodham Clinton. Critics capitalized on the remark.

"That wasn't helpful,'' McCarthy said Thursday at a press conference. "I could have said it much better."

But mostly many GOP conservatives were worried the would be hard pressed to explain to voters back in their districts that they had supported McCarthy, who was seen as too closely aligned with the current GOP leadership.

Some Republicans were hoping recruit Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), the former GOP vice presidential candidate. But Ryan has repeatedly said he is not interested in the post.

He repeated that in a statement Thursday.

"Kevin McCarthy is best person to lead the House, and so I’m disappointed in this decision," Ryan said. "Now it is important that we, as a conference, take time to deliberate and seek new candidates for the speakership. While I am grateful for the encouragement I’ve received, I will not be a candidate. I continue to believe I can best serve the country and this conference as chairman of the Ways and Means Committee.”


Source

Thoughts?


The Schism of the Republican finally starts. ONe could easily predict a new party possibly being formed as a result.


it would be very nice, but didn't everyone say the same when Obama spanked them in both elections? Kind of not holding my breath on that one anymore, as much as the split would be good for everyone no matter where you lie politically.


And looked what happened a rabid Conservative wing of the Republican party surged the House but parts of the Senate as well. Then they shut down the government, nearly defaulted the US Government, and have managed to block Boehner in on all sides while getting nothing passed in almost 6 years. Now when Boehner tries to escape he can't even do that as the exact same hardliners have managed to oust the man that was supposed to succeed him. This is uncharted waters.

While I understand how a person could think this (the bolded statement) is true, I do think a careful study of the Constitution will show you that it is quite impossible for the Congress to shut down the government. Congress does not have the power of enforcement (that is the executive, the President). Their only power is to pass the bills, it is President who must sign them. So while this could be said to be a semantics argument, the fact is that it was Obama who shut down the government by refusing to sign the budget. It was not as though the House had refused to pass a budget, just that Obama did not like the budget that they passed and decided to veto it.

Similarly, it betrays a misunderstanding of the basic mechanisms of how the US government works to accuse Congress of being obstructionist. They are quite incapable of being "obstructionist" since they are the originator and do not have veto power. That is a power held exclusively by the President, the power to "say no". In a very real sense Congress has no power to say no to anything, or to obstruct. If they vote down a bill than it never saw the light of day and was never an issue to begin with, so could not have been said to be "obstructed". If they vote in a bill, but the President vetoes it, even if he is "justified" in vetoing the bill, it is a simple fact that he was the obstruction in the passage of the bill, and further, the obstruction to the process of governance.

In short, its always Obama's fault. Except when the GOP does good things, then its the Congress did good things. Except the GOP doesn't do things any more, they just shut down the government.

I suppose you prefer it always being the GOP's fault... somewhat disingenuous of an argument. Also disingenuous is the "Congress doesn't do anything anymore" argument that is bandied about quite often. A basic perusal of the Constitution will show that Congress is not the Executive branch and therefore has no power to "do things".

You really did not pay much attention in school did you?
Sure you read some words in a book (or looked it up on a wiki 5 minutes ago) but you obviously have no grasp on what those words mean.

Congress's job is to pass bills. They are currently terrible at it. Hence them not doing anything anymore.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46692 Posts
October 08 2015 23:38 GMT
#47563
On October 09 2015 06:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
PORTLAND, Ore. -- After just one week of recreational marijuana sales, Oregon dispensaries have raked in an estimated $11 million.

That figure could mean the state's estimate is shockingly low for how much money it'll make when pot taxes kick in this January.

At Nectar on Northeast Sandy Boulevard and 33rd Avenue, they're restocking the shelves a lot this week.

"We're seeing about 500 people a day," said Nectar owner Jeff Johnson. Dispensary owners and customers are reporting Oregon's first week has gone very well.

"It's exciting," said a customer named Peter. "It's just really weird, it feels like it's not even really happening to be honest, it's really bizarre."

Another customer, Emily Szczech, was curious about the first day.

"We just wanted to come in and check it out," she said. "We've never been able to go into one of the stores to see what it's like."

The Oregon Retail Cannabis Association told KGW after tallying up sales from its members statewide and factoring in projections, they estimated there were $3.5 million in sales on the first day, October 1.

One week in, Oregon is already far ahead of dollars spent on pot compared to Colorado's first week of legal recreational sales, at $5 million. Washington took a month to sell its first $2 million, according to Marijuana Business Daily.


Source


Absolutely no one is surprised.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-08 23:40:45
October 08 2015 23:39 GMT
#47564
On October 09 2015 08:29 Cowboy64 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2015 08:22 Plansix wrote:
On October 09 2015 08:20 Cowboy64 wrote:
On October 09 2015 03:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On October 09 2015 03:00 QuanticHawk wrote:
On October 09 2015 02:33 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On October 09 2015 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-Bakersfield) stunned lawmakers Thursday by abruptly announcing that he was withdrawing from the race to become the next House speaker.

The California Republican, who was having trouble convincing GOP conservatives to support him, said the party needs a fresh face to take over after current Speaker John. A. Boenher steps down later this month.
Lawmakers had settled in for a long session over BBQ sandwiches when McCarthy stood up told his peers he wasnt the right candidate at this moment for the speakers job.

"He simply said that he didn't want it to be divisive and when it came to running for speaker, [that] he’s not the guy," said Rep. John Fleming of Louisiana, member of the Freedom Caucus.

With Congress on recess next week, another round of nomination voting is not expected until the week of Oct 19 at the soonest.

McCarthy's stunning withdrawal leaves the House GOP in disarray. Though it averts what could have been a nasty, contested leadership fight, it leaves unanswered the question of who might step in to unite the party.

McCarthy's bid for the post was hurt after a high-profile TV stumble in which he appeared to suggest that the GOP-led House investigation into the 2012 Benghazi attack was partly aimed at weakening Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Rodham Clinton. Critics capitalized on the remark.

"That wasn't helpful,'' McCarthy said Thursday at a press conference. "I could have said it much better."

But mostly many GOP conservatives were worried the would be hard pressed to explain to voters back in their districts that they had supported McCarthy, who was seen as too closely aligned with the current GOP leadership.

Some Republicans were hoping recruit Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), the former GOP vice presidential candidate. But Ryan has repeatedly said he is not interested in the post.

He repeated that in a statement Thursday.

"Kevin McCarthy is best person to lead the House, and so I’m disappointed in this decision," Ryan said. "Now it is important that we, as a conference, take time to deliberate and seek new candidates for the speakership. While I am grateful for the encouragement I’ve received, I will not be a candidate. I continue to believe I can best serve the country and this conference as chairman of the Ways and Means Committee.”


Source

Thoughts?


The Schism of the Republican finally starts. ONe could easily predict a new party possibly being formed as a result.


it would be very nice, but didn't everyone say the same when Obama spanked them in both elections? Kind of not holding my breath on that one anymore, as much as the split would be good for everyone no matter where you lie politically.


And looked what happened a rabid Conservative wing of the Republican party surged the House but parts of the Senate as well. Then they shut down the government, nearly defaulted the US Government, and have managed to block Boehner in on all sides while getting nothing passed in almost 6 years. Now when Boehner tries to escape he can't even do that as the exact same hardliners have managed to oust the man that was supposed to succeed him. This is uncharted waters.

While I understand how a person could think this (the bolded statement) is true, I do think a careful study of the Constitution will show you that it is quite impossible for the Congress to shut down the government. Congress does not have the power of enforcement (that is the executive, the President). Their only power is to pass the bills, it is President who must sign them. So while this could be said to be a semantics argument, the fact is that it was Obama who shut down the government by refusing to sign the budget. It was not as though the House had refused to pass a budget, just that Obama did not like the budget that they passed and decided to veto it.

Similarly, it betrays a misunderstanding of the basic mechanisms of how the US government works to accuse Congress of being obstructionist. They are quite incapable of being "obstructionist" since they are the originator and do not have veto power. That is a power held exclusively by the President, the power to "say no". In a very real sense Congress has no power to say no to anything, or to obstruct. If they vote down a bill than it never saw the light of day and was never an issue to begin with, so could not have been said to be "obstructed". If they vote in a bill, but the President vetoes it, even if he is "justified" in vetoing the bill, it is a simple fact that he was the obstruction in the passage of the bill, and further, the obstruction to the process of governance.

In short, its always Obama's fault. Except when the GOP does good things, then its the Congress did good things. Except the GOP doesn't do things any more, they just shut down the government.

I suppose you prefer it always being the GOP's fault... somewhat disingenuous of an argument. Also disingenuous is the "Congress doesn't do anything anymore" argument that is bandied about quite often. A basic perusal of the Constitution will show that Congress is not the Executive branch and therefore has no power to "do things".

In this specific case it is the GOPs fault. They want to defund PP even though the Democrats won't allow it. And they are willing to shut down the government over it and to "reduce spending" while offering no plan to do so. A member of the GOP called his party a "banana republic". It is their fault this time. Obama can't attempt to do anything because the GOP can't tie it's shoelaces.

On October 09 2015 08:37 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2015 08:29 Cowboy64 wrote:
On October 09 2015 08:22 Plansix wrote:
On October 09 2015 08:20 Cowboy64 wrote:
On October 09 2015 03:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On October 09 2015 03:00 QuanticHawk wrote:
On October 09 2015 02:33 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On October 09 2015 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-Bakersfield) stunned lawmakers Thursday by abruptly announcing that he was withdrawing from the race to become the next House speaker.

The California Republican, who was having trouble convincing GOP conservatives to support him, said the party needs a fresh face to take over after current Speaker John. A. Boenher steps down later this month.
Lawmakers had settled in for a long session over BBQ sandwiches when McCarthy stood up told his peers he wasnt the right candidate at this moment for the speakers job.

"He simply said that he didn't want it to be divisive and when it came to running for speaker, [that] he’s not the guy," said Rep. John Fleming of Louisiana, member of the Freedom Caucus.

With Congress on recess next week, another round of nomination voting is not expected until the week of Oct 19 at the soonest.

McCarthy's stunning withdrawal leaves the House GOP in disarray. Though it averts what could have been a nasty, contested leadership fight, it leaves unanswered the question of who might step in to unite the party.

McCarthy's bid for the post was hurt after a high-profile TV stumble in which he appeared to suggest that the GOP-led House investigation into the 2012 Benghazi attack was partly aimed at weakening Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Rodham Clinton. Critics capitalized on the remark.

"That wasn't helpful,'' McCarthy said Thursday at a press conference. "I could have said it much better."

But mostly many GOP conservatives were worried the would be hard pressed to explain to voters back in their districts that they had supported McCarthy, who was seen as too closely aligned with the current GOP leadership.

Some Republicans were hoping recruit Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), the former GOP vice presidential candidate. But Ryan has repeatedly said he is not interested in the post.

He repeated that in a statement Thursday.

"Kevin McCarthy is best person to lead the House, and so I’m disappointed in this decision," Ryan said. "Now it is important that we, as a conference, take time to deliberate and seek new candidates for the speakership. While I am grateful for the encouragement I’ve received, I will not be a candidate. I continue to believe I can best serve the country and this conference as chairman of the Ways and Means Committee.”


Source

Thoughts?


The Schism of the Republican finally starts. ONe could easily predict a new party possibly being formed as a result.


it would be very nice, but didn't everyone say the same when Obama spanked them in both elections? Kind of not holding my breath on that one anymore, as much as the split would be good for everyone no matter where you lie politically.


And looked what happened a rabid Conservative wing of the Republican party surged the House but parts of the Senate as well. Then they shut down the government, nearly defaulted the US Government, and have managed to block Boehner in on all sides while getting nothing passed in almost 6 years. Now when Boehner tries to escape he can't even do that as the exact same hardliners have managed to oust the man that was supposed to succeed him. This is uncharted waters.

While I understand how a person could think this (the bolded statement) is true, I do think a careful study of the Constitution will show you that it is quite impossible for the Congress to shut down the government. Congress does not have the power of enforcement (that is the executive, the President). Their only power is to pass the bills, it is President who must sign them. So while this could be said to be a semantics argument, the fact is that it was Obama who shut down the government by refusing to sign the budget. It was not as though the House had refused to pass a budget, just that Obama did not like the budget that they passed and decided to veto it.

Similarly, it betrays a misunderstanding of the basic mechanisms of how the US government works to accuse Congress of being obstructionist. They are quite incapable of being "obstructionist" since they are the originator and do not have veto power. That is a power held exclusively by the President, the power to "say no". In a very real sense Congress has no power to say no to anything, or to obstruct. If they vote down a bill than it never saw the light of day and was never an issue to begin with, so could not have been said to be "obstructed". If they vote in a bill, but the President vetoes it, even if he is "justified" in vetoing the bill, it is a simple fact that he was the obstruction in the passage of the bill, and further, the obstruction to the process of governance.

In short, its always Obama's fault. Except when the GOP does good things, then its the Congress did good things. Except the GOP doesn't do things any more, they just shut down the government.

I suppose you prefer it always being the GOP's fault... somewhat disingenuous of an argument. Also disingenuous is the "Congress doesn't do anything anymore" argument that is bandied about quite often. A basic perusal of the Constitution will show that Congress is not the Executive branch and therefore has no power to "do things".

You really did not pay much attention in school did you?
Sure you read some words in a book (or looked it up on a wiki 5 minutes ago) but you obviously have no grasp on what those words mean.

Congress's job is to pass bills. They are currently terrible at it. Hence them not doing anything anymore.


But the president signs the bills, so really all the blame lies with him. /s
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
October 08 2015 23:55 GMT
#47565
So basically if a worker makes a shit product and quality control says it's a shit product, we're not shipping it, then quality control is responsible for not meeting quota.
Cowboy is management material.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-09 00:38:33
October 09 2015 00:34 GMT
#47566
Here's a nice article on the trilemma created by the debt ceiling:
http://columbialawreview.org/bargaining-in-the-shadow-of-the-debt-ceiling-when-negotiating-over-spending-and-tax-laws-congress-and-the-president-should-consider-the-debt-ceiling-a-dead-letter/

edit: adding a tldr with the first paragraph

"If the debt ceiling is inconsistent with existing spending and taxing laws, what must the President do? In earlier work, we argued that when Congress creates a “trilemma”—making it impossible for the President to spend as much as Congress has ordered, to tax only as much as Congress has ordered, and to borrow no more than Congress has permitted—the Constitution requires the President to choose the least unconstitutional path. In particular, he must honor Congress’s decisions and priorities regarding spending and taxing, and he must issue enough debt to do so. Here, we extend the analysis in two ways. First, we rebut several recently-advanced arguments that purport to dissolve the trilemma. We explain that upon close inspection some of those arguments amount to non sequiturs, while one potentially promising solution would merely substitute a nondelegation violation for a separation-of-powers violation. Second, we ask whether our original analysis changes if both Congress and the President, when they pass appropriations measures, knowingly create a trilemma. We conclude that the answer does not change—that is, that spending and taxing laws must still take precedence over the debt ceiling. Accordingly, the debt ceiling is effectively a dead letter, and both Congress and the President should treat it as such."
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-09 00:38:40
October 09 2015 00:38 GMT
#47567
Calling a government shutdown the fault of "the GOP" seems a bit disingenuous just because of how schizophrenic the "grand old party" has become. There are plenty of people that are part of "the GOP" in positions of power (Boehner, probably Jeb, and quite a few more silent individuals) that did or would have done a lot to try to avert another shutdown, and succeeded on at least one occasion.

For a crude analogy, if someone brings someone to your party that gets wasted and pukes on your rug, and their friend was trying to keep them from getting wasted and get them to the bathroom but they couldn't succeed, apportion more blame to the puker than their friend.

On a sidenote, if Paul Ryan becomes Speaker of the House I think he will have actually become Peter Keating. Ayn Rand would be disgusted.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 09 2015 00:38 GMT
#47568
The top Republican and Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee are preparing to introduce a bill Thursday they're billing as "companion" legislation to the major Senate sentencing overhaul unveiled last week.

Chairman Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., and ranking member John Conyers, D-Mich., issued a rare joint statement saying their proposal results from several months of negotiations "to ensure our federal criminal laws and regulations appropriately punish wrongdoers, are effectively and appropriately enforced, operate with fairness and compassion, protect individual freedom ... and do not waste taxpayer dollars."

Key provisions in the proposal, obtained by NPR in advance of a formal news conference, suggested that the language mostly tracks the Senate legislation. If passed, the bill would reduce mandatory life sentences for drug offenders convicted under the "three strikes" laws to 25 years behind bars. The changes would apply to people already in prison — but in a change from the Senate counterpart, prisoners who have certain prior violent felony convictions would not be eligible.

The lawmakers said they expect to propose other legislative changes to the asset forfeiture system, and to prisons and juvenile justice, in the coming weeks.

The plan by the House members came as something of a surprise for advocates following the issue. Goodlatte had previously said he would address parts of the justice system piecemeal, with asset forfeiture coming first.

"Nobody expected this all would be coming so quickly," said Holly Harris of the U.S. Justice Action Network, a group that pushes for reform at the state and federal level. "I wonder if there was an effort in D.C. to tamp down expectations."

Harris said the Senate plan released last week is "far more comprehensive" than anticipated and the outlines for action in the House Judiciary Committee are aggressive, too. "If all of that gets done this year, it'll put me out of business," she added.

Jeremy Haile, who's long advocated for changes to the justice system, called the new plan "substantial" and "salutary." Haile, of the DC-based nonprofit The Sentencing Project, pointed out that federal courts usually don't have jurisdiction to prosecute crimes like assault or armed robbery.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Krikkitone
Profile Joined April 2009
United States1451 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-09 01:47:57
October 09 2015 01:38 GMT
#47569
On October 09 2015 08:37 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2015 08:29 Cowboy64 wrote:
On October 09 2015 08:22 Plansix wrote:
On October 09 2015 08:20 Cowboy64 wrote:
On October 09 2015 03:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On October 09 2015 03:00 QuanticHawk wrote:
On October 09 2015 02:33 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
On October 09 2015 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-Bakersfield) stunned lawmakers Thursday by abruptly announcing that he was withdrawing from the race to become the next House speaker.

The California Republican, who was having trouble convincing GOP conservatives to support him, said the party needs a fresh face to take over after current Speaker John. A. Boenher steps down later this month.
Lawmakers had settled in for a long session over BBQ sandwiches when McCarthy stood up told his peers he wasnt the right candidate at this moment for the speakers job.

"He simply said that he didn't want it to be divisive and when it came to running for speaker, [that] he’s not the guy," said Rep. John Fleming of Louisiana, member of the Freedom Caucus.

With Congress on recess next week, another round of nomination voting is not expected until the week of Oct 19 at the soonest.

McCarthy's stunning withdrawal leaves the House GOP in disarray. Though it averts what could have been a nasty, contested leadership fight, it leaves unanswered the question of who might step in to unite the party.

McCarthy's bid for the post was hurt after a high-profile TV stumble in which he appeared to suggest that the GOP-led House investigation into the 2012 Benghazi attack was partly aimed at weakening Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Rodham Clinton. Critics capitalized on the remark.

"That wasn't helpful,'' McCarthy said Thursday at a press conference. "I could have said it much better."

But mostly many GOP conservatives were worried the would be hard pressed to explain to voters back in their districts that they had supported McCarthy, who was seen as too closely aligned with the current GOP leadership.

Some Republicans were hoping recruit Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), the former GOP vice presidential candidate. But Ryan has repeatedly said he is not interested in the post.

He repeated that in a statement Thursday.

"Kevin McCarthy is best person to lead the House, and so I’m disappointed in this decision," Ryan said. "Now it is important that we, as a conference, take time to deliberate and seek new candidates for the speakership. While I am grateful for the encouragement I’ve received, I will not be a candidate. I continue to believe I can best serve the country and this conference as chairman of the Ways and Means Committee.”


Source

Thoughts?


The Schism of the Republican finally starts. ONe could easily predict a new party possibly being formed as a result.


it would be very nice, but didn't everyone say the same when Obama spanked them in both elections? Kind of not holding my breath on that one anymore, as much as the split would be good for everyone no matter where you lie politically.


And looked what happened a rabid Conservative wing of the Republican party surged the House but parts of the Senate as well. Then they shut down the government, nearly defaulted the US Government, and have managed to block Boehner in on all sides while getting nothing passed in almost 6 years. Now when Boehner tries to escape he can't even do that as the exact same hardliners have managed to oust the man that was supposed to succeed him. This is uncharted waters.

While I understand how a person could think this (the bolded statement) is true, I do think a careful study of the Constitution will show you that it is quite impossible for the Congress to shut down the government. Congress does not have the power of enforcement (that is the executive, the President). Their only power is to pass the bills, it is President who must sign them. So while this could be said to be a semantics argument, the fact is that it was Obama who shut down the government by refusing to sign the budget. It was not as though the House had refused to pass a budget, just that Obama did not like the budget that they passed and decided to veto it.

Similarly, it betrays a misunderstanding of the basic mechanisms of how the US government works to accuse Congress of being obstructionist. They are quite incapable of being "obstructionist" since they are the originator and do not have veto power. That is a power held exclusively by the President, the power to "say no". In a very real sense Congress has no power to say no to anything, or to obstruct. If they vote down a bill than it never saw the light of day and was never an issue to begin with, so could not have been said to be "obstructed". If they vote in a bill, but the President vetoes it, even if he is "justified" in vetoing the bill, it is a simple fact that he was the obstruction in the passage of the bill, and further, the obstruction to the process of governance.

In short, its always Obama's fault. Except when the GOP does good things, then its the Congress did good things. Except the GOP doesn't do things any more, they just shut down the government.

I suppose you prefer it always being the GOP's fault... somewhat disingenuous of an argument. Also disingenuous is the "Congress doesn't do anything anymore" argument that is bandied about quite often. A basic perusal of the Constitution will show that Congress is not the Executive branch and therefore has no power to "do things".

You really did not pay much attention in school did you?
Sure you read some words in a book (or looked it up on a wiki 5 minutes ago) but you obviously have no grasp on what those words mean.

Congress's job is to pass bills. They are currently terrible at it. Hence them not doing anything anymore.


It is not Congress' job to pass bills, it is Congress' job to Decide if there are any bills worth passing. If there aren't any bills worth passing (ie the country does not agree on the details enough) then Congress does its job by not passing any bills
BallinWitStalin
Profile Joined July 2008
1177 Posts
October 09 2015 01:44 GMT
#47570
On October 09 2015 09:38 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
The top Republican and Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee are preparing to introduce a bill Thursday they're billing as "companion" legislation to the major Senate sentencing overhaul unveiled last week.

Chairman Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., and ranking member John Conyers, D-Mich., issued a rare joint statement saying their proposal results from several months of negotiations "to ensure our federal criminal laws and regulations appropriately punish wrongdoers, are effectively and appropriately enforced, operate with fairness and compassion, protect individual freedom ... and do not waste taxpayer dollars."

Key provisions in the proposal, obtained by NPR in advance of a formal news conference, suggested that the language mostly tracks the Senate legislation. If passed, the bill would reduce mandatory life sentences for drug offenders convicted under the "three strikes" laws to 25 years behind bars. The changes would apply to people already in prison — but in a change from the Senate counterpart, prisoners who have certain prior violent felony convictions would not be eligible.

The lawmakers said they expect to propose other legislative changes to the asset forfeiture system, and to prisons and juvenile justice, in the coming weeks.

The plan by the House members came as something of a surprise for advocates following the issue. Goodlatte had previously said he would address parts of the justice system piecemeal, with asset forfeiture coming first.

"Nobody expected this all would be coming so quickly," said Holly Harris of the U.S. Justice Action Network, a group that pushes for reform at the state and federal level. "I wonder if there was an effort in D.C. to tamp down expectations."

Harris said the Senate plan released last week is "far more comprehensive" than anticipated and the outlines for action in the House Judiciary Committee are aggressive, too. "If all of that gets done this year, it'll put me out of business," she added.

Jeremy Haile, who's long advocated for changes to the justice system, called the new plan "substantial" and "salutary." Haile, of the DC-based nonprofit The Sentencing Project, pointed out that federal courts usually don't have jurisdiction to prosecute crimes like assault or armed robbery.


Source


25 years for three non-violent drug offences, and that's the improvement? Good lord, living in Canada I had no idea it was that bad...

America, get your shit together on this please :/
I await the reminiscent nerd chills I will get when I hear a Korean broadcaster yell "WEEAAAAVVVVVUUUHHH" while watching Dota
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 09 2015 01:46 GMT
#47571
While some are suggesting House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) will be holding the gavel for the foreseeable future, Boehner reportedly called Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) Thursday after House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthry (R-CA) announced he was dropping out of the speaker's race and asked Ryan to run.

Two unnamed sources confirmed to the Washington Post the conversation, which took place over two "long" phone calls. According to the Post's Robert Costa, Boehner told Ryan -- a budget wonk who chairs the House Ways and Means Committee -- he could influence policy from the leadership post while serving as a healer for the divided caucus.

Almost immediately after news broke McCarthy was dropping his bid, Ryan issued a statement saying he would not be a candidate for speaker.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
October 09 2015 01:58 GMT
#47572
On October 09 2015 10:46 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
While some are suggesting House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) will be holding the gavel for the foreseeable future, Boehner reportedly called Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) Thursday after House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthry (R-CA) announced he was dropping out of the speaker's race and asked Ryan to run.

Two unnamed sources confirmed to the Washington Post the conversation, which took place over two "long" phone calls. According to the Post's Robert Costa, Boehner told Ryan -- a budget wonk who chairs the House Ways and Means Committee -- he could influence policy from the leadership post while serving as a healer for the divided caucus.

Almost immediately after news broke McCarthy was dropping his bid, Ryan issued a statement saying he would not be a candidate for speaker.


Source


Boehner: Pls I want to leave
Ryan: Lol u think I want the job
Boehner: U get a cool gavel thing
Ryan: Can I hit shitty Republicans with it
Boehner: no
Ryan: lol gl with that
Boehner: fuck no one wants this job
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 09 2015 02:07 GMT
#47573
On October 09 2015 09:34 zlefin wrote:
Here's a nice article on the trilemma created by the debt ceiling:
http://columbialawreview.org/bargaining-in-the-shadow-of-the-debt-ceiling-when-negotiating-over-spending-and-tax-laws-congress-and-the-president-should-consider-the-debt-ceiling-a-dead-letter/

edit: adding a tldr with the first paragraph

"If the debt ceiling is inconsistent with existing spending and taxing laws, what must the President do? In earlier work, we argued that when Congress creates a “trilemma”—making it impossible for the President to spend as much as Congress has ordered, to tax only as much as Congress has ordered, and to borrow no more than Congress has permitted—the Constitution requires the President to choose the least unconstitutional path. In particular, he must honor Congress’s decisions and priorities regarding spending and taxing, and he must issue enough debt to do so. Here, we extend the analysis in two ways. First, we rebut several recently-advanced arguments that purport to dissolve the trilemma. We explain that upon close inspection some of those arguments amount to non sequiturs, while one potentially promising solution would merely substitute a nondelegation violation for a separation-of-powers violation. Second, we ask whether our original analysis changes if both Congress and the President, when they pass appropriations measures, knowingly create a trilemma. We conclude that the answer does not change—that is, that spending and taxing laws must still take precedence over the debt ceiling. Accordingly, the debt ceiling is effectively a dead letter, and both Congress and the President should treat it as such."


The reason why this argument is foolish and disingenuous is that spending is the only of those levers that the government actually has the kind of control over to the extent those authors assume. Tax revenue is not necessarily able to be increased on demand, and its actually unclear due to Laffer curve and other effects that the executive can successfully raise additional revenue. The ability to issue additional bonds is in a similar situation: Although right now the US can borrow at an incredibly low interest rate, one should not make a Constitutional determination based on the facts of 2015; additionally, there would be significant questions by borrowers about the validity of non-statutory debt, so its not nearly as useful a mechanism as they posit. On the other hand, the government has a near 100% capability of controlling the flow out of its own coffers.

On top of that, this is not merely a simple conflict of laws situation. Yes the President faces a question of whether to follow tax law, the debt ceiling, or spending laws, but it is not like him deciding between a provision in the ADA and the Lantham Act. The debt ceiling is the most specific law on the question of the debt of the United States, so it would be controlling under standard (merely statutory) terms. But, on top of that, there is a Constitutional right for taxpayers to only pay taxes duly enacted by Congress, and (arguably, but almost no one serious argues against this) a Constitutional right for debtholders to be repaid, there is no such right for beneficiaries of federal programs to receive benefits. They merely have a statutory right.
Freeeeeeedom
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-09 02:12:08
October 09 2015 02:11 GMT
#47574
Yeah if we raise taxes we might not actually bring in any more money because of the laugher curve. Pretty strong analysis clutz.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 09 2015 02:28 GMT
#47575
clutz, did you actually read the entirety of the article?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
October 09 2015 02:43 GMT
#47576
On October 09 2015 10:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2015 10:46 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
While some are suggesting House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) will be holding the gavel for the foreseeable future, Boehner reportedly called Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) Thursday after House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthry (R-CA) announced he was dropping out of the speaker's race and asked Ryan to run.

Two unnamed sources confirmed to the Washington Post the conversation, which took place over two "long" phone calls. According to the Post's Robert Costa, Boehner told Ryan -- a budget wonk who chairs the House Ways and Means Committee -- he could influence policy from the leadership post while serving as a healer for the divided caucus.

Almost immediately after news broke McCarthy was dropping his bid, Ryan issued a statement saying he would not be a candidate for speaker.


Source


Boehner: Pls I want to leave
Ryan: Lol u think I want the job
Boehner: U get a cool gavel thing
Ryan: Can I hit shitty Republicans with it
Boehner: no
Ryan: lol gl with that
Boehner: fuck no one wants this job


lol so true. The "freedom caucus" has made the position untenable by anyone but themselves.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 09 2015 03:09 GMT
#47577
On October 09 2015 11:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 09 2015 10:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
On October 09 2015 10:46 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
While some are suggesting House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) will be holding the gavel for the foreseeable future, Boehner reportedly called Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) Thursday after House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthry (R-CA) announced he was dropping out of the speaker's race and asked Ryan to run.

Two unnamed sources confirmed to the Washington Post the conversation, which took place over two "long" phone calls. According to the Post's Robert Costa, Boehner told Ryan -- a budget wonk who chairs the House Ways and Means Committee -- he could influence policy from the leadership post while serving as a healer for the divided caucus.

Almost immediately after news broke McCarthy was dropping his bid, Ryan issued a statement saying he would not be a candidate for speaker.


Source


Boehner: Pls I want to leave
Ryan: Lol u think I want the job
Boehner: U get a cool gavel thing
Ryan: Can I hit shitty Republicans with it
Boehner: no
Ryan: lol gl with that
Boehner: fuck no one wants this job


lol so true. The "freedom caucus" has made the position untenable by anyone but themselves.

Herding cats is hard, but I would take it over that shit job.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 09 2015 03:12 GMT
#47578
On October 09 2015 11:28 zlefin wrote:
clutz, did you actually read the entirety of the article?


Read it during the last debt crisis.

Here is a post I made elsewhere in 2013 on this paper:

1. Doesn't Discuss Occam's Razor or any similar principle. Somewhere in the paper they accurately state that the debt ceiling was created in 1917. However, they imply strongly that prior to this that Congress simply thought that the overall level of debt was irrelevant and did it to allay concerns about debt. In fact, the truth is almost the opposite, the debt limit was create to simplify the process of issuing bonds that is because, "Between 1788 and 1917 the amount of each bond issue by the United States Treasury had to be separately authorized by Congress by passing a legislative act that approved the bond issue." http://en.wikipedia....ling_increases; see also ("Before World War I, Congress often authorized borrowing for specified purposes, such as the construction of the Panama Canal.76 Congress also often specified which types of financial instruments Treasury could employ, and specified or limited interest rates, maturities, and details of when bonds could be redeemed. In other cases, especially in time of war, Congress provided the Treasury with discretion, subject to broad limits, to choose debt instruments.") http://www.google.co...,d.aWc&cad=rja.

In this way, they set off in their writing on a dishonest foot by: 1. Not acknowledging that without the debt limit Congress would have an even more difficult way of Constitutionally issuing debt, and 2. Ignoring that one law (the debt limit) specifically speaks to the issue while the others do so only indirectly.

2. Doesn't Discuss that Exceeding the Debt limit is not certain when a budget is passed. Tax receipts are never certain. This fact is never discussed. No budget passed has an 100% chance of causing the federal government to exceed the debt ceiling, so no budget even contains an "implicit" authorization to raise the debt limit. Unanticipated September growth in employment and tax revenues could cause the entire discussion (debt limit) to be moot.

3. In the Spending Cuts vs. Tax increases part, the authors for some reason assume the President could successfully increase tax revenues. This claim is dubious first because of the slow machinery that underpins the tax system, and second because the dubious connection between increasing tax rates and increases in tax revenues.

While I think the rest of the information and analysis is quite good, the omission of these three significant points renders the conclusions fairly specious.


I mean, how can you even seriously cite an article (supposedly scholarly) with a subheader that reads, "C. Hostage Taking and Political Strategies, in the Shadow of the Constitution" as if it is not incredibly politically biased.

The real question about the constitutionality of the debt limit is not whether the President can raise it unilaterally if it conflicts with his spending obligations, it is whether a rolling limit to the debt, as opposed to individualized issuances of a set amount of bonds for a set amount of dollars is even allowed.
Freeeeeeedom
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 09 2015 03:29 GMT
#47579
I can seriously cite it because it is scholarly, and well written, in a highly reputable journal. The conclusions and arguments may be wrong, but it is definitely well written and a good read.
So what do you think the most constitutional action would be for a president faced with that Trilemma?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 09 2015 03:49 GMT
#47580
On October 09 2015 12:29 zlefin wrote:
I can seriously cite it because it is scholarly, and well written, in a highly reputable journal. The conclusions and arguments may be wrong, but it is definitely well written and a good read.
So what do you think the most constitutional action would be for a president faced with that Trilemma?


It is easily impoundment. That is merely an unconstitutional violation of his obligation to follow the instructions given to him by Congress. The other two options are an unconstitutional violation of his obligation to follow the instructions given to him by Congress, and an unconstitutional violation of constraints placed on the entire government with respect to citizens (and noncitizen bondholders).

Another thing that I don't think people really are getting from this entire discussion, is that given American history after the Constitution's ratification and immediately following the 14th Amendment, the debt ceiling is more likely to be unconstitutional because it makes issuing bonds and spending the money raised too easy, rather than making it too hard. I'm actually interested to see what happened in the early American governments when the budgeted spending exceeded revenue, but google is currently only providing sources with very limited value.
Freeeeeeedom
Prev 1 2377 2378 2379 2380 2381 10093 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
IPSL
02:00
Ro24 Group D
Azhi_Dahaki vs ggnore13
Double vs WIZARD
Airneanach127
Liquipedia
IntoTheTV X SOOP
20:00
Premier - Final Day
WardiTV604
TaKeTV 388
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech127
BRAT_OK 70
MindelVK 33
EmSc Tv 16
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyun 39
HiyA 34
ggaemo 17
yabsab 14
Dota 2
qojqva3304
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps2085
gobbtv179
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox395
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu328
Khaldor275
Other Games
tarik_tv5316
summit1g2634
Grubby2503
Liquid`RaSZi1967
singsing1651
FrodaN1595
PiGStarcraft244
Fuzer 180
QueenE116
Mew2King92
NeuroSwarm37
Railgan27
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV1150
gamesdonequick642
Counter-Strike
PGL94
StarCraft 2
angryscii 31
EmSc Tv 16
EmSc2Tv 16
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 20
• Hupsaiya 12
• Reevou 8
• maralekos6
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 38
• FirePhoenix11
• HerbMon 6
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV402
League of Legends
• Nemesis2419
• Jankos1856
Other Games
• imaqtpie1018
• Shiphtur242
• tFFMrPink 13
Upcoming Events
BSL
35m
Cross vs Puma
Artosis vs Spine
Replay Cast
3h 35m
Replay Cast
1d 3h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 14h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 16h
YoungYakov vs Lambo
SHIN vs TBD
Percival vs Shameless
Solar vs TBD
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
IPSL
5 days
TerrOr vs IJ_Terran
rasowy vs Hazorath
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
IPSL
6 days
Art_Of_Turtle vs KameZerg
Radley vs George
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-06
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

Sector 951
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.