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On July 02 2015 15:00 Introvert wrote: This thread really is something right now. Will the Bernie obsession reach even greater heights? I hope so, because chances are he will fail, and when he does it will be glorious to watch.
I want a piece of whatever you bet against Book. A sig bet should be a minimum.
On July 02 2015 15:03 Introvert wrote:
On July 02 2015 15:00 bookwyrm wrote:
On July 02 2015 15:00 Introvert wrote: This thread really is something right now. Will the Bernie obsession reach even greater heights? I hope so, because chances are he will fail, and when he does it will be glorious to watch.
what will you bet me
Nothing, because I'm rooting for my own long shots. It's entirely possible- but odds are neither my picks nor Sanders will even win the primary, much less the general. So for now I'm just going to take it all in. The only thing better than Bernie losing the primary will be a Republican winning the general election. This thread would be awesome.
Also, I don't much care about Sanders. I'm not a leftist in any respect, so I just watch this Bernie love from a distance as an amused spectator. If he wins the primary then there is work to be done. But I'll leave that to the voters in the Democratic primary.
You seem sure what do you have to lose?
I'm not a betting person by nature. I haven't even made any predictions- precisely because anything can happen. That's how I approach most things, and it fits right in with my conservatism
because chances are he will fail, and when he does it will be glorious to watch.
On July 02 2015 15:10 bookwyrm wrote: what is your field?
look man. you are confused about the difference between a description of reality and an assessment of a reality. are you in a field where they read books?
Your pretension is not warranted and I am not confused about anything. I am well aware of what you are saying but the fact that you think its a bad way to do things (you are right it has gotten out of control) doesn't change the fact that its true what I said.
look. I'm not saying that 'publish or perish' is not a valid description of the actual way that academe works. I am saying that 'publish or perish' is a paradigm that is based upon some basic misunderstandings of what would be a good way to run a society. And so we should realize that, and then change the way things work. Because we can do things like that. #becausedemocracy
On July 02 2015 15:04 ticklishmusic wrote: Take out the word kinda, I like using qualifiers so sue me.
Publish or perish is a harsh reality for the vast majority in academia. If your point is that quality is more important than volume, I can agree with that. However, having zero output, e.g. not adding to the body of knowledge is a problem. Maybe some people manage to have a decades-long "career" where the one thing they write is their thesis (and I would dearly like to know how), but they are the incredibly rare exception to the rule.
Anyways, the comparison is a distraction. Bernie's record consists of taking a bunch of moral stances, but precious little in terms of making a material difference. I'll respect the man, but I'm not voting for the candidate. He's had years and years to demonstrate his effectiveness, and he just hasn't (except for his stint as a mayor like 30 years ago). Those are the facts to me, and bashing Obama, Clinton or whoever else is irrelevant. I want to know if Sanders can actually get shit done. I may be liberal, but I'm also pragmatic.
Interestingly, Obama actually sponsored 2 bills that became law as a Senator. Bernie has 3 (two of which are naming post offices) as I mentioned above.
On July 02 2015 14:59 bookwyrm wrote: so the fact that Bernie Sanders has not singlehandedly proposed a solution to everybody's problems is a good reason why he's a bad candidate for presidency. Gotcha
You're being facetious and sarcastic. How about you try being a better champion for your candidate?
On July 02 2015 15:00 Introvert wrote: This thread really is something right now. Will the Bernie obsession reach even greater heights? I hope so, because chances are he will fail, and when he does it will be glorious to watch.
I want a piece of whatever you bet against Book. A sig bet should be a minimum.
On July 02 2015 15:03 Introvert wrote:
On July 02 2015 15:00 bookwyrm wrote:
On July 02 2015 15:00 Introvert wrote: This thread really is something right now. Will the Bernie obsession reach even greater heights? I hope so, because chances are he will fail, and when he does it will be glorious to watch.
what will you bet me
Nothing, because I'm rooting for my own long shots. It's entirely possible- but odds are neither my picks nor Sanders will even win the primary, much less the general. So for now I'm just going to take it all in. The only thing better than Bernie losing the primary will be a Republican winning the general election. This thread would be awesome.
Also, I don't much care about Sanders. I'm not a leftist in any respect, so I just watch this Bernie love from a distance as an amused spectator. If he wins the primary then there is work to be done. But I'll leave that to the voters in the Democratic primary.
You seem sure what do you have to lose?
I'm not a betting person by nature. I haven't even made any predictions- precisely because anything can happen. That's how I approach most things, and it fits right in with my conservatism
what do you mean, "kinda true"? I don't really understand your post. You speak of "languishing in obscurity," Who says that seeking fame is what the thing is about? What if that is the problem?? Bernie Sanders says that "this campaign is not about Bernie Sanders." He's completely right. Bernie Sanders has never done a thing in his life to seek fame for Bernie Sanders. Sanders has the reputation he has because he is a man of integrity. Find somebody from Vermont, no matter their political persuasion, and ask them what they think about Bernie Sanders. I dare you.
i think we need to define words if we're going to talk to one another. what does 'left' mean to you? In what way is Obama 'left'? Obama completely abandoned the people who got him elected in the first place. He turned into a neoliberal running dog. Fuck Barack Obama. Vote Sanders 2016
See above. What's wrong with being a neoliberal?
I get it, everyone likes Sanders. Look, even I like Sanders. Doesn't mean that I'm going to vote for him (and what, like 30-40% of Vermont-ians or whatever they're called aren't going to either).
you just don't get it. Don't you realize that I am an academic? I'm saying that your measure of what is an effective career is flawed. It's true, but it's a social reality constructed upon a false premise - i.e. something that we should change through political action
I too am an academic (or was in college). I don't know what field you're in, but in mine (molecular biology) publish or perish was pretty damn true. My PI got published in Science every couple years, and he still had most of his grant proposals rejected. It was a hard life.
I'm using legislation as a proxy for effectiveness (i.e., his ability to manifest change via his elected position) for Sanders. If it's not good enough, then propose or provide an alternative.
so the fact that Bernie Sanders has not singlehandedly proposed a solution to everybody's problems is a good reason why he's a bad candidate for presidency. Gotcha
You're not reading. It's the fact that he hasn't actually done anything.
what do you mean, "kinda true"? I don't really understand your post. You speak of "languishing in obscurity," Who says that seeking fame is what the thing is about? What if that is the problem?? Bernie Sanders says that "this campaign is not about Bernie Sanders." He's completely right. Bernie Sanders has never done a thing in his life to seek fame for Bernie Sanders. Sanders has the reputation he has because he is a man of integrity. Find somebody from Vermont, no matter their political persuasion, and ask them what they think about Bernie Sanders. I dare you.
i think we need to define words if we're going to talk to one another. what does 'left' mean to you? In what way is Obama 'left'? Obama completely abandoned the people who got him elected in the first place. He turned into a neoliberal running dog. Fuck Barack Obama. Vote Sanders 2016
See above. What's wrong with being a neoliberal?
I get it, everyone likes Sanders. Look, even I like Sanders. Doesn't mean that I'm going to vote for him (and what, like 30-40% of Vermont-ians or whatever they're called aren't going to either).
you just don't get it. Don't you realize that I am an academic? I'm saying that your measure of what is an effective career is flawed. It's true, but it's a social reality constructed upon a false premise - i.e. something that we should change through political action
I too am an academic (or was in college). I don't know what field you're in, but in mine (molecular biology) publish or perish was pretty damn true. My PI got published in Science every couple years, and he still had most of his grant proposals rejected. It was a hard life.
I'm using legislation as a proxy for effectiveness (i.e., his ability to manifest change via his elected position) for Sanders. If it's not good enough, then propose or provide an alternative.
so the fact that Bernie Sanders has not singlehandedly proposed a solution to everybody's problems is a good reason why he's a bad candidate for presidency. Gotcha
You're not reading. It's the fact that he hasn't actually done anything.
The standards of success you are measuring are not ones that Bernie is strong in. If voters don't care about your standards, who's wrong - you or them?
Also, if you don't see an issue with neoliberal policies (at least in their current iteration, and maybe even theoretically) then you're sippin that capitalist koolaid that led to our current tax rate. Cheers.
Sanders is the Democratic equivalent of Ron Paul. I'm about as die hard a supporter of Paul as you'll find, and I wasn't under any false pretenses he could win the GOP nomination (if Fox didn't exist, then yeah, he had a good shot since he probably would have won Iowa and NH, but I digress). Anyways, the point is - the public doesn't want "principles" and "integrity", they want pie in the sky promises of lollipops and rainbows. Promise them all sorts of ridiculous stuff like free healthcare, free tuition, legislative morality, kill the "enemy" rah rah, etc. It's a big Roman circus freakshow and Statesman's are antiquated ideas of the 18th Century. So, yeah, even though you may attribute integrity and principles as positive's, Boobus Americanus certainly doesn't, and oh, he doesn't 'look' Presidential (and oh boy do I really loathe that one).
But, hey, good luck (and this is coming from someone who doesn't like Bernie).
On July 02 2015 14:59 bookwyrm wrote: so the fact that Bernie Sanders has not singlehandedly proposed a solution to everybody's problems is a good reason why he's a bad candidate for presidency. Gotcha
since you prefer to strawman rather than debate intelligently, I shall not debate with you.
On July 02 2015 15:04 ticklishmusic wrote: Take out the word kinda, I like using qualifiers so sue me.
Publish or perish is a harsh reality for the vast majority in academia. If your point is that quality is more important than volume, I can agree with that. However, having zero output, e.g. not adding to the body of knowledge is a problem. Maybe some people manage to have a decades-long "career" where the one thing they write is their thesis (and I would dearly like to know how), but they are the incredibly rare exception to the rule.
Anyways, the comparison is a distraction. Bernie's record consists of taking a bunch of moral stances, but precious little in terms of making a material difference. I'll respect the man, but I'm not voting for the candidate. He's had years and years to demonstrate his effectiveness, and he just hasn't (except for his stint as a mayor like 30 years ago). Those are the facts to me, and bashing Obama, Clinton or whoever else is irrelevant. I want to know if Sanders can actually get shit done. I may be liberal, but I'm also pragmatic.
Interestingly, Obama actually sponsored 2 bills that became law as a Senator. Bernie has 3 (two of which are naming post offices) as I mentioned above.
On July 02 2015 14:59 bookwyrm wrote: so the fact that Bernie Sanders has not singlehandedly proposed a solution to everybody's problems is a good reason why he's a bad candidate for presidency. Gotcha
You're being facetious and sarcastic. How about you try being a better champion for your candidate?
That bill was co-sponsored, and since it's past 2am and I have work tomorrow, I'm not going to look deeper into it. So, I'm going to postulate that the bill originated with our good friend from Arizona.
Who gives a shit about committees? They're power, it's true, but has Bernie done anything with it?
what do you mean, "kinda true"? I don't really understand your post. You speak of "languishing in obscurity," Who says that seeking fame is what the thing is about? What if that is the problem?? Bernie Sanders says that "this campaign is not about Bernie Sanders." He's completely right. Bernie Sanders has never done a thing in his life to seek fame for Bernie Sanders. Sanders has the reputation he has because he is a man of integrity. Find somebody from Vermont, no matter their political persuasion, and ask them what they think about Bernie Sanders. I dare you.
i think we need to define words if we're going to talk to one another. what does 'left' mean to you? In what way is Obama 'left'? Obama completely abandoned the people who got him elected in the first place. He turned into a neoliberal running dog. Fuck Barack Obama. Vote Sanders 2016
See above. What's wrong with being a neoliberal?
I get it, everyone likes Sanders. Look, even I like Sanders. Doesn't mean that I'm going to vote for him (and what, like 30-40% of Vermont-ians or whatever they're called aren't going to either).
you just don't get it. Don't you realize that I am an academic? I'm saying that your measure of what is an effective career is flawed. It's true, but it's a social reality constructed upon a false premise - i.e. something that we should change through political action
I too am an academic (or was in college). I don't know what field you're in, but in mine (molecular biology) publish or perish was pretty damn true. My PI got published in Science every couple years, and he still had most of his grant proposals rejected. It was a hard life.
I'm using legislation as a proxy for effectiveness (i.e., his ability to manifest change via his elected position) for Sanders. If it's not good enough, then propose or provide an alternative.
so the fact that Bernie Sanders has not singlehandedly proposed a solution to everybody's problems is a good reason why he's a bad candidate for presidency. Gotcha
You're not reading. It's the fact that he hasn't actually done anything.
it's not a fucking baseball game
It's a fun fact.
The standards of success you are measuring are not ones that Bernie is strong in. If voters don't care about your standards, who's wrong - you or them?
Also, if you don't see an issue with neoliberal policies (at least in their current iteration, and maybe even theoretically) then you're sippin that capitalist koolaid that led to our current tax rate. Cheers.
That's an interesting question. What's your opinion though? Also, if Bernie Sanders can hold the same opinions for a few years and the arc of progress eventually catches up with him, then I can hope that everyone else catches up to me when it comes to pragmatism, facetious as that sounds.
Oh no, I kind of favor the free market. Makes me an awful person. Look, I think killing Glass Steagall was the dumbest thing ever. Also, the tax code getting to its current busted state hardly took place overnight, or even solely during the Obama presidency. If there were only the political capital to tackle the issue. Maybe the next president will have it, but I doubt it.
Look at how hard they have to attack him. And look at how he fights back. Again, I think that your quibbles about his legislative past (he helped draft ACA) and past in general (hello, Civil Rights walk) are unfounded, and he supports position most Americans agree with.
As someone who hunts, I 100% agree with his stance on gun control. Guns are a tool that can be used for hunting or murder. Differentiating between the two, which occurs mainly with rural vs. urban, is incredibly important.
On July 02 2015 15:04 ticklishmusic wrote: Take out the word kinda, I like using qualifiers so sue me.
Publish or perish is a harsh reality for the vast majority in academia. If your point is that quality is more important than volume, I can agree with that. However, having zero output, e.g. not adding to the body of knowledge is a problem. Maybe some people manage to have a decades-long "career" where the one thing they write is their thesis (and I would dearly like to know how), but they are the incredibly rare exception to the rule.
Anyways, the comparison is a distraction. Bernie's record consists of taking a bunch of moral stances, but precious little in terms of making a material difference. I'll respect the man, but I'm not voting for the candidate. He's had years and years to demonstrate his effectiveness, and he just hasn't (except for his stint as a mayor like 30 years ago). Those are the facts to me, and bashing Obama, Clinton or whoever else is irrelevant. I want to know if Sanders can actually get shit done. I may be liberal, but I'm also pragmatic.
Interestingly, Obama actually sponsored 2 bills that became law as a Senator. Bernie has 3 (two of which are naming post offices) as I mentioned above.
On July 02 2015 14:59 bookwyrm wrote: so the fact that Bernie Sanders has not singlehandedly proposed a solution to everybody's problems is a good reason why he's a bad candidate for presidency. Gotcha
You're being facetious and sarcastic. How about you try being a better champion for your candidate?
That bill was co-sponsored, and since it's past 2am and I have work tomorrow, I'm not going to look deeper into it. So, I'm going to postulate that the bill originated with our good friend from Arizona.
Who gives a shit about committees? They're power, it's true, but has Bernie done anything with it?
what do you mean, "kinda true"? I don't really understand your post. You speak of "languishing in obscurity," Who says that seeking fame is what the thing is about? What if that is the problem?? Bernie Sanders says that "this campaign is not about Bernie Sanders." He's completely right. Bernie Sanders has never done a thing in his life to seek fame for Bernie Sanders. Sanders has the reputation he has because he is a man of integrity. Find somebody from Vermont, no matter their political persuasion, and ask them what they think about Bernie Sanders. I dare you.
i think we need to define words if we're going to talk to one another. what does 'left' mean to you? In what way is Obama 'left'? Obama completely abandoned the people who got him elected in the first place. He turned into a neoliberal running dog. Fuck Barack Obama. Vote Sanders 2016
See above. What's wrong with being a neoliberal?
I get it, everyone likes Sanders. Look, even I like Sanders. Doesn't mean that I'm going to vote for him (and what, like 30-40% of Vermont-ians or whatever they're called aren't going to either).
you just don't get it. Don't you realize that I am an academic? I'm saying that your measure of what is an effective career is flawed. It's true, but it's a social reality constructed upon a false premise - i.e. something that we should change through political action
I too am an academic (or was in college). I don't know what field you're in, but in mine (molecular biology) publish or perish was pretty damn true. My PI got published in Science every couple years, and he still had most of his grant proposals rejected. It was a hard life.
I'm using legislation as a proxy for effectiveness (i.e., his ability to manifest change via his elected position) for Sanders. If it's not good enough, then propose or provide an alternative.
so the fact that Bernie Sanders has not singlehandedly proposed a solution to everybody's problems is a good reason why he's a bad candidate for presidency. Gotcha
You're not reading. It's the fact that he hasn't actually done anything.
it's not a fucking baseball game
It's a fun fact.
The standards of success you are measuring are not ones that Bernie is strong in. If voters don't care about your standards, who's wrong - you or them?
Also, if you don't see an issue with neoliberal policies (at least in their current iteration, and maybe even theoretically) then you're sippin that capitalist koolaid that led to our current tax rate. Cheers.
That's an interesting question. What's your opinion though? Also, if Bernie Sanders can hold the same opinions for a few years and the arc of progress eventually catches up with him, then I can hope that everyone else catches up to me when it comes to pragmatism, facetious as that sounds.
Oh no, I kind of favor the free market. Makes me an awful person. Look, I think killing Glass Steagall was the dumbest thing ever. Also, the tax code getting to its current busted state hardly took place overnight, or even solely during the Obama presidency. If there were only the political capital to tackle the issue. Maybe the next president will have it, but I doubt it.
HERE'S WHAT'S FUNNY
The bill was originally Sanders', and he wanted more funding for it. He was forced to compromise with GOP and McCain was the person willing to reach over the aisle.
Try to view this candidate without bias... please...
He wants debates because he knows his stuff and his positions resonate. Not because he's a clown who somehow got into the Presidential stage (cough cough Trump cough cough Jindal) or a big-money, big-politics name (Clinton, Bush).
On July 02 2015 14:59 bookwyrm wrote: so the fact that Bernie Sanders has not singlehandedly proposed a solution to everybody's problems is a good reason why he's a bad candidate for presidency. Gotcha
since you prefer to strawman rather than debate intelligently, I shall not debate with you.
You do realize it's absurd to hold it against Bernie that he didn't draft a proposed budget plan right?
On July 02 2015 14:59 bookwyrm wrote: so the fact that Bernie Sanders has not singlehandedly proposed a solution to everybody's problems is a good reason why he's a bad candidate for presidency. Gotcha
since you prefer to strawman rather than debate intelligently, I shall not debate with you.
You do realize it's absurd to hold it against Bernie that he didn't draft a proposed budget plan right?
I remember hearing offhand that while he's not the most pleasant person to be on committee with (I wonder why... cough calling people's bullshit cough) he has been called effective and has operated with integrity.
Look at how hard they have to attack him. And look at how he fights back. Again, I think that your quibbles about his legislative past (he helped draft ACA) and past in general (hello, Civil Rights walk) are unfounded, and he supports position most Americans agree with.
As someone who hunts, I 100% agree with his stance on gun control. Guns are a tool that can be used for hunting or murder. Differentiating between the two, which occurs mainly with rural vs. urban, is incredibly important.
Yeah same (well more like 85%). He's the only hope I see for not having to deal with ammo shortages for another decade.
I'm thinking Republicans are sitting on something like 16 years of opposition research, jokes, memes, talking points, etc...on Hillary and a viable Sanders campaign shits all over all of it.
On July 02 2015 14:59 bookwyrm wrote: so the fact that Bernie Sanders has not singlehandedly proposed a solution to everybody's problems is a good reason why he's a bad candidate for presidency. Gotcha
since you prefer to strawman rather than debate intelligently, I shall not debate with you.
You do realize it's absurd to hold it against Bernie that he didn't draft a proposed budget plan right?
dude, don't be like that other guy. I never said I held that against him. Please read carefully before replying, and don't try to read things into something that aren't there.
Hillary wouldnt be the first female president. Wilson's wife ran the executive branch for 2 whole years while he had stroke. Hillary would be the second women president.
MADISON, Wisconsin - "In case you haven't noticed, there are a lot of people here," Bernie Sanders said a bit awed as he took the stage in front of nearly 10,000 in a coliseum here.
Sanders has been attracting outsize crowds wherever he takes his unlikely presidential campaign. Five thousand came out for his kickoff rally in his hometown of Burlington, Vermont. Another 5,000 turned out in Denver, Colorado. In Minneapolis, a thousand listened from outside when the basketball arena where Sanders was speaking filled to capacity.
But Madison was different.
"Tonight we have made history," Sanders declared to thunderous applause. "Tonight we have more people at a meeting for a candidate for president of the United States than any other candidates have."
Indeed, Sanders - the self-declared Democratic-socialist from Vermont; the former perennial protest candidate; the man who until a few weeks ago belonged to neither party - turned out more people Wednesday night than has any candidate of either party so far this year.
On July 02 2015 15:29 Wegandi wrote: Sanders is the Democratic equivalent of Ron Paul. I'm about as die hard a supporter of Paul as you'll find, and I wasn't under any false pretenses he could win the GOP nomination (if Fox didn't exist, then yeah, he had a good shot since he probably would have won Iowa and NH, but I digress). Anyways, the point is - the public doesn't want "principles" and "integrity", they want pie in the sky promises of lollipops and rainbows. Promise them all sorts of ridiculous stuff like free healthcare, free tuition, legislative morality, kill the "enemy" rah rah, etc. It's a big Roman circus freakshow and Statesman's are antiquated ideas of the 18th Century. So, yeah, even though you may attribute integrity and principles as positive's, Boobus Americanus certainly doesn't, and oh, he doesn't 'look' Presidential (and oh boy do I really loathe that one).
But, hey, good luck (and this is coming from someone who doesn't like Bernie).
I don't see Sanders winning the general election, but I do see him potentially getting democrats to kick Hillary to the curb yet again and seizing the democratic nomination. Sanders is more in line with mainstream democrats than Ron Paul ever was with mainstream republicans. And as I have been saying all along, democrats don't really like Hillary. They find her about as exciting as lukewarm milk. This has always been her problem as a politician.
EPT
