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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
March 17 2015 18:38 GMT
#34741
Holy shit China is trying to exercise soft and hard power

Just like the US and other imperialist nations have done for the last few hundred years. How dare they!
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
always_winter
Profile Joined February 2015
United States195 Posts
March 17 2015 18:49 GMT
#34742
The US subjugating the entire Western hemisphere through a series of cunning, manipulative soft-power exertions for a period of about two hundred years is widely condemned throughout academia and its ramifications continue to limit Central and South America at large. There's a rather large difference between identifying parallels between emerging powers and recognizing the failure of the precedent as a means to prevent the neigh-inevitable cyclical repetition of history.

Cute quip, though.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 17 2015 18:52 GMT
#34743
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
March 17 2015 18:57 GMT
#34744
On March 18 2015 03:49 always_winter wrote:
The US subjugating the entire Western hemisphere through a series of cunning, manipulative soft-power exertions for a period of about two hundred years is widely condemned throughout academia and its ramifications continue to limit Central and South America at large. There's a rather large difference between identifying parallels between emerging powers and recognizing the failure of the precedent as a means to prevent the neigh-inevitable cyclical repetition of history.

Cute quip, though.


You're making the assumption that China desires to and is able to exert soft power in such a manipulative way given the current global political landscape.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
NPF
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada1635 Posts
March 17 2015 19:19 GMT
#34745
On March 18 2015 03:19 always_winter wrote:

The idea that the Brits, French or Germans could shape policy within a Chinese (let's drop the "Asian" façade and call it what it really is) organization is pretty far-fetched, considering inequitable economic policies and inhumane social standards are the very means which enable China to thrive on the global market. As the US is unwilling to compromise its economic hegemony on the world stage, so, too, will China be uncompromising in regard to undermining the inequitable trade practices working greatly in its favor.



To me it seems true that no one country can fully shape China policy mostly because China has a very diversified export portfolio. However it seems that a USA & EU [Source] push with some other countries helping could help shape it's social policy. Equally with more trade agreements from developped nations with developping nations will hopefully lead to less dependance on China in the future global market letting countries push for stronger social reform if needed in China or in other countries (without terrible consequences of one main supplier strong arming other nations into submission).

And honnestly as for banking we Canadians always say, just copy us, we're viewed quite well globally for are stability.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-17 19:29:50
March 17 2015 19:29 GMT
#34746
On March 18 2015 03:57 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2015 03:49 always_winter wrote:
The US subjugating the entire Western hemisphere through a series of cunning, manipulative soft-power exertions for a period of about two hundred years is widely condemned throughout academia and its ramifications continue to limit Central and South America at large. There's a rather large difference between identifying parallels between emerging powers and recognizing the failure of the precedent as a means to prevent the neigh-inevitable cyclical repetition of history.

Cute quip, though.


You're making the assumption that China desires to and is able to exert soft power in such a manipulative way given the current global political landscape.

that's not an assumption. it's simple fact especially when talking about asia and africa.

this discussion has taken an interesting turn as people actually believe the european piece about influencing china. LOl
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-17 20:02:04
March 17 2015 20:01 GMT
#34747
On March 18 2015 04:29 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2015 03:57 ticklishmusic wrote:
On March 18 2015 03:49 always_winter wrote:
The US subjugating the entire Western hemisphere through a series of cunning, manipulative soft-power exertions for a period of about two hundred years is widely condemned throughout academia and its ramifications continue to limit Central and South America at large. There's a rather large difference between identifying parallels between emerging powers and recognizing the failure of the precedent as a means to prevent the neigh-inevitable cyclical repetition of history.

Cute quip, though.


You're making the assumption that China desires to and is able to exert soft power in such a manipulative way given the current global political landscape.

that's not an assumption. it's simple fact especially when talking about asia and africa.

this discussion has taken an interesting turn as people actually believe the european piece about influencing china. LOl


In a vacuum, China would be able to. But that's wholly ignoring the US. My point is that China isn't going to be some kid in a candy shop. They'll be just one of several factions vying to exert its influence in various places. If they come out on top, that's because they've done a better job.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-17 20:23:40
March 17 2015 20:18 GMT
#34748
the u.s. isnt really influencing mugabe et al to such a degree to make them not deal with china. we cant even affect europe enough.

the part about better job is naive. intl dealing with a typical african dictator is won on kickbacks and tolerance for human and environmental abuse. china is also the growth mkt for commodities and there is really no such thing as a positive 'better' job there except paying more. again, kickbacks and lack of burdensome regulatory requirements
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
March 17 2015 20:23 GMT
#34749
On March 18 2015 03:25 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Rep. Aaron Schock (R-Ill.) will resign from Congress amid a controversy over his spending habits, Politico reported Tuesday.

In a statement to Politico, the congressman said he will resign effective March 31.


Source


PEORIA, Ill. — The question to Rep. Aaron Schock was simple: Do you think you’ve broken any rules or federal laws? But the scandal-plagued congressman did not have a definitive answer.
“Well, I certainly hope not,” Schock said. “I’m not an attorney.” The 33-year-old Republican went on to argue that he does his “best” and takes his obligations “very seriously,” which is why he’s enlisted outside advisers to help audit his office’s procedures.
Story Continued Below
“That’s what we can all do, is our best effort,” Schock said.


Source
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
March 17 2015 21:18 GMT
#34750
Only tangentially related to US politics, but HANS, so posting

ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
March 17 2015 21:19 GMT
#34751
On March 18 2015 05:18 oneofthem wrote:
the u.s. isnt really influencing mugabe et al to such a degree to make them not deal with china. we cant even affect europe enough.

the part about better job is naive. intl dealing with a typical african dictator is won on kickbacks and tolerance for human and environmental abuse. china is also the growth mkt for commodities and there is really no such thing as a positive 'better' job there except paying more. again, kickbacks and lack of burdensome regulatory requirements


I don't understand how better job is naive. It means you won because you played your cards more effectively. Maybe the US has a shittier hand in some ways, but its not like we're helpless in the face of increasing Chinese influence. There's plenty of ways the US can drive African policy. If China ends up completely dominating Africa, then it means we fucked up. It's that simple.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 17 2015 23:20 GMT
#34752
it doesn't mean that.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-18 00:47:15
March 18 2015 00:17 GMT
#34753
On March 17 2015 22:34 xDaunt wrote:
In the ever-expanding annals of Obama's foreign policy failures, anyone else notice all of the countries -- particularly traditional US allies -- starting negotiations to join China's Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank?

In the ever-expanding annals of xDaunt's ignorant blaming of Obama for everything that happens in the world, here's another entry.

If you had actually followed these developments, you would know that the Obama administration actually did pretty much all that it could in order to avoid the launch of the AIIB. In fact, it handled Asian countries' desire for representation among institutions such as the IMF far better than the Bush administration. For example, see the 2010 IMF quota and governance reform, in which the U.S. managed to maintain its initial degree of influence in the institution while allowing emerging powers to gain more influence, thus exactly achieving the US' objectives in the negotiations. In comparison, previous negotiations on these matters were handled far less well by the Bush administration, which paid much less attention to the demands of emerging powers within international organizations.

You therefore seem to be confusing "everything not going your way" with "making a mistake". The Obama administration is hardly to blame for the launch of the AIIB and for the list of countries which did decide to join it, given how much it did to prevent it from happening and to find alternative solutions to try to accommodate China and the like. Sometimes, there's just not much you can do in the face of outside developments. This is one of these cases, unfortunately for the "Thanks, Obama!" narrative you like to push every time something you don't like happens.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18441 Posts
March 18 2015 01:23 GMT
#34754
On March 18 2015 06:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Only tangentially related to US politics, but HANS, so posting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh7nfnUIAvA

Not really related at all, but awesome all the same Thanks for posting.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
March 18 2015 01:57 GMT
#34755
On March 18 2015 09:17 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2015 22:34 xDaunt wrote:
In the ever-expanding annals of Obama's foreign policy failures, anyone else notice all of the countries -- particularly traditional US allies -- starting negotiations to join China's Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank?

In the ever-expanding annals of xDaunt's ignorant blaming of Obama for everything that happens in the world, here's another entry.

If you had actually followed these developments, you would know that the Obama administration actually did pretty much all that it could in order to avoid the launch of the AIIB. In fact, it handled Asian countries' desire for representation among institutions such as the IMF far better than the Bush administration. For example, see the 2010 IMF quota and governance reform, in which the U.S. managed to maintain its initial degree of influence in the institution while allowing emerging powers to gain more influence, thus exactly achieving the US' objectives in the negotiations. In comparison, previous negotiations on these matters were handled far less well by the Bush administration, which paid much less attention to the demands of emerging powers within international organizations.

You therefore seem to be confusing "everything not going your way" with "making a mistake". The Obama administration is hardly to blame for the launch of the AIIB and for the list of countries which did decide to join it, given how much it did to prevent it from happening and to find alternative solutions to try to accommodate China and the like. Sometimes, there's just not much you can do in the face of outside developments. This is one of these cases, unfortunately for the "Thanks, Obama!" narrative you like to push every time something you don't like happens.

I could start with a discussion about excuses and assholes, but let us just cut to the chase. The problem is not that the AIIB has been launched. China was always going to launch AIIB, regardless of any marginal changes at the IMF (or even any large change that preserved American dominance). China -- along with the other BRICS -- is actively looking to establish a new world order better conducive to its interests. The problem is that traditional US allies (notably the British) are failing to stand firm and in alignment with US interests, and are joining the AIIB. That is on Obama for failing to develop and maintain strong enough ties with these countries to keep them firmly in our sphere of influence. And blaming Bush is little more than a tacit admission that Obama is such a clueless diplomat that he has been unable to meaningfully improve relations with our allies over the past 6 years. But hey, people love to make excuses for the failures that have occurred on Obama's watch, so I do not expect you all to stop now.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44289 Posts
March 18 2015 02:18 GMT
#34756
While Obama hasn't been indulging the desire of some senior British politicians to be publicly seen as America's closest ally, "a special relationship" etc etc there is a degree of opposition to that within Britain. The relationship between the United Kingdom and the United States is not some deep historical and cultural bond, we're not brothers and the vanity of politicians, in particular Tony Blair, wishing to appear side by side with the most powerful man int he world has committed Britain to foreign policy that we would not otherwise have wished for. Obama is right to not have an exclusive "special relationship" with Cameron but to open up to many special relationships and furthermore the feeling is somewhat mutual. A large part of the British public are disgusted by their leaders' slavish obedience to American military adventurism, among other things, and the blame for that primarily lies on Tony Blair. Yeah he removed the bust of Churchill which was just bad politics because "he hates Churchill" is never going to win him points here but on the other hand Churchill is the arch-colonialist, I'd expect an Irish American to get rid of a bust of Oliver Cromwell too. He should have gritted his teeth and put up with it for 8 years because it was less popular than if he'd spat on the queen or something but whatever, he's the President.

TLDR: Yeah he hasn't acted like Cameron is his best friend but on the other hand after Blair's obsession with being best friends with Bush we're kind of over that whole thing. He should have put up with a bust of Churchill. Also he'd have gotten points if he'd spoken up for the NHS when pushing socialised medicine because it really is fantastic and it gets tiresome having American politicians demonising a service that the British see as one of our crowning achievements while so many of their own citizens lack healthcare.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-18 02:38:30
March 18 2015 02:31 GMT
#34757
On March 18 2015 10:57 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2015 09:17 kwizach wrote:
On March 17 2015 22:34 xDaunt wrote:
In the ever-expanding annals of Obama's foreign policy failures, anyone else notice all of the countries -- particularly traditional US allies -- starting negotiations to join China's Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank?

In the ever-expanding annals of xDaunt's ignorant blaming of Obama for everything that happens in the world, here's another entry.

If you had actually followed these developments, you would know that the Obama administration actually did pretty much all that it could in order to avoid the launch of the AIIB. In fact, it handled Asian countries' desire for representation among institutions such as the IMF far better than the Bush administration. For example, see the 2010 IMF quota and governance reform, in which the U.S. managed to maintain its initial degree of influence in the institution while allowing emerging powers to gain more influence, thus exactly achieving the US' objectives in the negotiations. In comparison, previous negotiations on these matters were handled far less well by the Bush administration, which paid much less attention to the demands of emerging powers within international organizations.

You therefore seem to be confusing "everything not going your way" with "making a mistake". The Obama administration is hardly to blame for the launch of the AIIB and for the list of countries which did decide to join it, given how much it did to prevent it from happening and to find alternative solutions to try to accommodate China and the like. Sometimes, there's just not much you can do in the face of outside developments. This is one of these cases, unfortunately for the "Thanks, Obama!" narrative you like to push every time something you don't like happens.

I could start with a discussion about excuses and assholes, but let us just cut to the chase. The problem is not that the AIIB has been launched. China was always going to launch AIIB, regardless of any marginal changes at the IMF (or even any large change that preserved American dominance). China -- along with the other BRICS -- is actively looking to establish a new world order better conducive to its interests. The problem is that traditional US allies (notably the British) are failing to stand firm and in alignment with US interests, and are joining the AIIB. That is on Obama for failing to develop and maintain strong enough ties with these countries to keep them firmly in our sphere of influence. And blaming Bush is little more than a tacit admission that Obama is such a clueless diplomat that he has been unable to meaningfully improve relations with our allies over the past 6 years. But hey, people love to make excuses for the failures that have occurred on Obama's watch, so I do not expect you all to stop now.


I don't think you even believe that, let alone expect anyone else to.

Countries don't develop their trade policies based on how much beer they drink with the other countries' leaders. "Yeah, this trade deal would benefit my country's economy and make me look like a competent leader, but **** all that because bros before hoes, Obama's my BFF."

It is obvious you're doing something exactly what others describe you as doing, which is finding anything in the world that could be disapproved of, and trying to throw that for your partisan team.

It is not Obama's fault if Britain joins the AIIB.

I think that's a stretch of logic even by tea-party standards. I don't think even you really believe that. But, by God, you'll say it anyways.
Big water
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44289 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-18 02:39:36
March 18 2015 02:39 GMT
#34758
It's worth noting that if the British are stupid enough to elect someone whose vanity requires the appearance of friendship with the US President then we'll be putting out for a smile and a wink soon enough regardless of who the US President is.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44289 Posts
March 18 2015 02:40 GMT
#34759
On March 18 2015 11:31 Leporello wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 18 2015 10:57 xDaunt wrote:
On March 18 2015 09:17 kwizach wrote:
On March 17 2015 22:34 xDaunt wrote:
In the ever-expanding annals of Obama's foreign policy failures, anyone else notice all of the countries -- particularly traditional US allies -- starting negotiations to join China's Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank?

In the ever-expanding annals of xDaunt's ignorant blaming of Obama for everything that happens in the world, here's another entry.

If you had actually followed these developments, you would know that the Obama administration actually did pretty much all that it could in order to avoid the launch of the AIIB. In fact, it handled Asian countries' desire for representation among institutions such as the IMF far better than the Bush administration. For example, see the 2010 IMF quota and governance reform, in which the U.S. managed to maintain its initial degree of influence in the institution while allowing emerging powers to gain more influence, thus exactly achieving the US' objectives in the negotiations. In comparison, previous negotiations on these matters were handled far less well by the Bush administration, which paid much less attention to the demands of emerging powers within international organizations.

You therefore seem to be confusing "everything not going your way" with "making a mistake". The Obama administration is hardly to blame for the launch of the AIIB and for the list of countries which did decide to join it, given how much it did to prevent it from happening and to find alternative solutions to try to accommodate China and the like. Sometimes, there's just not much you can do in the face of outside developments. This is one of these cases, unfortunately for the "Thanks, Obama!" narrative you like to push every time something you don't like happens.

I could start with a discussion about excuses and assholes, but let us just cut to the chase. The problem is not that the AIIB has been launched. China was always going to launch AIIB, regardless of any marginal changes at the IMF (or even any large change that preserved American dominance). China -- along with the other BRICS -- is actively looking to establish a new world order better conducive to its interests. The problem is that traditional US allies (notably the British) are failing to stand firm and in alignment with US interests, and are joining the AIIB. That is on Obama for failing to develop and maintain strong enough ties with these countries to keep them firmly in our sphere of influence. And blaming Bush is little more than a tacit admission that Obama is such a clueless diplomat that he has been unable to meaningfully improve relations with our allies over the past 6 years. But hey, people love to make excuses for the failures that have occurred on Obama's watch, so I do not expect you all to stop now.

Countries don't develop their trade policies based on how much beer they drink with the other countries' leaders. "Yeah, this trade deal would benefit my country's economy and make me look like a competent leader, but **** all that because bros before hoes, Obama's my BFF."

Blair would have.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 18 2015 02:46 GMT
#34760
given british response to the whole HK situation this AIIB isn't even the most backbending for china they've done this year. this deal has more to do with UK than whatever obama failed to do.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
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