EPTSomehow with socialism the conditions were never right, the leaders were bad, somehow from the outside is trying to manipulate it, it's always another excuse, but never the ideology itself that could be flawed. That doesn't even appear to be a possible explanation for most people that claim to be socialists.
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
Somehow with socialism the conditions were never right, the leaders were bad, somehow from the outside is trying to manipulate it, it's always another excuse, but never the ideology itself that could be flawed. That doesn't even appear to be a possible explanation for most people that claim to be socialists. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 13 2014 03:18 Nyxisto wrote: No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you identify with a specific ideology you can't just strip all the history and bad parts away and redefine it to your own liking so that by definition it's unattackable. In the specific case of socialism I feel like there is an extremely large gap between what socialism has done in the past and what claims people make today. We agree then. Just like you I believe that a unified germany always tries to dominate europe at all costs until it leads to war, and altho a unified germany does not necessarily mean the apocalypse, you can't just strip all the history and bad parts away and redefine it to your own liking. And yes that's the same exact reasonning. | ||
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Wolfstan
Canada605 Posts
On November 13 2014 02:42 WhiteDog wrote: The FN were hugely against the "Polish Plumber". From my perspective saying that being against immigration is uninformed or racists is a flawed view that usually comes from people who are educated and/or rather safe from unemployment. Well what I'm saying is only true in France tho. I personally am against economical immigration. I'm for what made my country in its history, which is political immigration. Economical immigration only favor the capital, by lowering wages and increasing unemployment. I prefer helping people that needs it, rather than trying to gain money from immigrants. I believe in the opposite, political reach ends at defined borders. Citizens and corporations should have the fundamental freedom of mobility to cross those borders. Unfortunately, the borders are so unfriendly to capital that corporations have 2 trillion stashed away overseas. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28798 Posts
On November 13 2014 02:42 WhiteDog wrote: The FN were hugely against the "Polish Plumber". From my perspective saying that being against immigration is uninformed or racists is a flawed view that usually comes from people who are educated and/or rather safe from unemployment. Well what I'm saying is only true in France tho. I personally am against economical immigration. I'm for what made my country in its history, which is political immigration. Economical immigration only favor the capital, by lowering wages and increasing unemployment. I prefer helping people that needs it, rather than trying to gain money from immigrants. You are far from the norm among European anti-immigrationists though, and as far from FN as it gets? I know there's some leftist opposition towards Schengen and free flow of workers because it harms worker rights in wealthier countries, but this is not what I think of when I hear "european opposition to immigration". In Norway I perceive the debate around immigration as incredibly hostile, often borderline racist - but the polish migrant workers are virtually absent from the debate, if anything they are one group mostly everyone considers beneficial. (then again, our pretty much communist party (with no parliament representation) is the one party I can remember being opposed. ) Mostly problems relating to immigration are grouped into a: muslim rapists who destroy norwegian culture and women, b: somalians who destroy the norwegian welfare system by getting way too many kids and not working, c: romanian/eastern european thieves (who destroy the norwegian mentality of leaving valuables on your porch before going to sleep or leaving the door unlocked before you go to work.) I also think it's somewhat of a schizophrenic position for a leftist to prioritize wealth of workers from his country over wealth of workers from immigrant country, but I guess it's more of a hostility towards economic liberalism as a whole. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On November 13 2014 04:01 Liquid`Drone wrote: I also think it's somewhat of a schizophrenic position for a leftist to prioritize wealth of workers from his country over wealth of workers from immigrant country, but I guess it's more of a hostility towards economic liberalism as a whole. As long as you're not a Trotskyite that's actually a fairly mainstream position on the political (far) left in Europe. Couple that with some resentment towards everything that is 'the West' and America and some weird adoration for Russia and you have most left-wing parties at the moment. | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23957 Posts
On November 13 2014 04:41 robopork wrote: This is the first time I've visited this thread in a while and it's a german, a frenchmen, a canadian, and a norwegian. Haha I love it. Sounds like the begging of a joke.... A German, a Frenchman, a Canadian, and a Norwegian walk into a US politics forum...  | ||
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Wolfstan
Canada605 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 13 2014 04:01 Wolfstan wrote: I believe in the opposite, political reach ends at defined borders. Citizens and corporations should have the fundamental freedom of mobility to cross those borders. Unfortunately, the borders are so unfriendly to capital that corporations have 2 trillion stashed away overseas. most of those corporations also have very marginal returns on investing their capital in the core business. | ||
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Wolfstan
Canada605 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
WASHINGTON -- The only climate change Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) was interested in Wednesday was the one coming to the U.S. Senate, as he greeted a new crop of GOP senators-elect on Capitol Hill. As for President Barack Obama's announcement on Wednesday of a climate agreement with China, McConnell was far less impressed, and slammed the White House for ignoring the desires of the GOP. The likely Senate majority leader's warm welcome of new Republican lawmakers, coupled with his harsh assessment of Obama, was the latest sign suggesting that the relationship between Congress and the White House will be even more contentious over the next two years. McConnell, however, cast it differently. "We're here to make the place function again, and begin to make progress for the American people," he told reporters, standing amid a group of senators-elect who will be part of the new GOP's majority in the upper chamber come January. But for McConnell, making progress does not include the new deal with China. He made that clear when he was asked whether he would also aim to move his caucus more towards the middle in the hopes of getting deals done with the White House. "The problem is the president continues to send signals he has no intention of moving to the middle," McConnell said. "I was particularly distressed by the deal that apparently he has reached with the Chinese on his current trip, which, as I read the agreement, requires the Chinese to do nothing at all for 16 years while these carbon emission regulations are creating havoc in my state and other states around the country." Source | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 13 2014 04:01 Liquid`Drone wrote: You are far from the norm among European anti-immigrationists though, and as far from FN as it gets? I know there's some leftist opposition towards Schengen and free flow of workers because it harms worker rights in wealthier countries, but this is not what I think of when I hear "european opposition to immigration". In Norway I perceive the debate around immigration as incredibly hostile, often borderline racist - but the polish migrant workers are virtually absent from the debate, if anything they are one group mostly everyone considers beneficial. (then again, our pretty much communist party (with no parliament representation) is the one party I can remember being opposed. ) Mostly problems relating to immigration are grouped into a: muslim rapists who destroy norwegian culture and women, b: somalians who destroy the norwegian welfare system by getting way too many kids and not working, c: romanian/eastern european thieves (who destroy the norwegian mentality of leaving valuables on your porch before going to sleep or leaving the door unlocked before you go to work.) I also think it's somewhat of a schizophrenic position for a leftist to prioritize wealth of workers from his country over wealth of workers from immigrant country, but I guess it's more of a hostility towards economic liberalism as a whole. Yeah France is a different country : we have the highest % of muslim and jew in an occidental country (after the US for absolute numbers, and israel put aside). So the debate around immigration cannot be around those type of blatant racists questions, altho there is a racism below I agree, my point is that we cannot really limit it to simple racism, the market have social costs that logically leads to that kind of perspective. And yes it is entirely schizophrenic if you're an internationalist. I have friends who think the idea of "France" or any country doesn't mean anything and that see no value in the idea. I personally do not believe that a socialist society or a reform of the system is possible outside of the limited area of the nation. Our europe is a good exemple of what happen when the politics is placed at a level where people have no or almost no direct influence and/or are too heterogeneous to create a consensus : the market strive and dominate everything. When the general interest is too hard to define, personal interests dominate. I'd add that permitting people to work in your country with no right and at their home country wage is no solidarity either. The european council just ruled that it was okay not to help someone from another european country who come as a tourist. So yes you can come if we can gain money from it is not really humanist. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
Obamacare Architect Apologizes For Remarks On The Law's Passage ... "This bill was written in a tortured way to make sure CBO did not score the mandate as taxes," he said. "Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. And basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really, really critical to getting the thing to pass." Source lol, what a dick. Good video though, and plenty of what he says isn't dickish: + Show Spoiler + Edit: also, table rattle op, plz nerf. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8745 Posts
On November 13 2014 07:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Source lol, what a dick. Good video though, and plenty of what he says isn't dickish: + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHihDa_VPWw&list=PL9GSLBeLsrhakDPuRFmtX6mt_XJ1aNI11 Edit: also, table rattle op, plz nerf. haha. Fox explodes over it. good stuff ^_^ | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Doublemint
Austria8745 Posts
On November 13 2014 07:53 oneofthem wrote: guy speaks like he's in school. not smart lol. haha yeah. basically political suicide but damn funny to watch the whole mess unfold, and the usual suspects responding the way they are supposed to. | ||
KwarK
United States43991 Posts
If Fox want to aggressively run with "The Left think the American people are idiots" line then isn't the subtext "and they're right"? | ||
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farvacola
United States18857 Posts
Yay us. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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