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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1420

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
November 11 2014 00:48 GMT
#28381
I think "more government" is a really inaccurate term. I think it makes way more sense to distinguish between "wide government" as in many regulations, connections between politics and companies etc.. and strong but narrow government, like redistribution, or law-making regarding a specific problem or something like that. Net neutrality is not "government creeping into the awesome market" it only means that every package on the internet is supposed to be treated exactly the same. It's a single very simple thing that actually stops a lot of crap that could happen if there is no net neutrality.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
November 11 2014 01:03 GMT
#28382
On November 11 2014 09:36 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2014 09:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 11 2014 08:35 Doublemint wrote:
On November 11 2014 08:10 Chewbacca. wrote:
Liberals get the increase in tax revenue they want. Conservatives aren't forced to pay a tax so they're happy.

A lot of things have tension with religion; War, gay marriage, abortion, only 1 spouse.

It being possible to hurt a small amount of people seems like a silly argument. It is still helping people in the additional services offered by the government and it's voluntary. Compare this to something like food stamps or universal health care. They are both helping people, they are both hurting people, but the lottery is voluntary.

I mean I certainly don't love state lotteries, but not for any of the reasons you listed, but because the state locks out private companies from hosting their own lotteries. Which if there were private lotteries instead of state lotteries then the same "bad" things would be happening, but none of the "good" things that happen from the state gaining money would happen...which could be another argument for state lotteries.


Or compare it to crack. Why not heroin? State run brothel maybe? Human trafficking to go to the extreme! In principle it's the same following your logic.

On November 11 2014 08:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 11 2014 07:54 Doublemint wrote:
On November 11 2014 07:35 Chewbacca. wrote:
On November 11 2014 07:08 Doublemint wrote:
On November 11 2014 00:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:


Your STATES, as in local governments by and for the people, actually run LOTTERIES? LOL. America never ceases to amaze.


Why is this bad? Basically a voluntary tax where the proceeds go to helping the people?


There are like a hundred reasons that come to mind.

Promoting gambling potentially causes a lot of suffering/is problematic because

-of its addictive nature
-its destructive nature
-its tension with religion
-it being a pipe dream, and "idiot tax" is the more appropriate term

just right on top of my head.

I have heard governments taxing/banning/regulating it, but never being the pusher themselves. That's a new one and more than questionable.

Luring people into buying a state approved ticket, by holding a golden carrot in front of their face that they are going to increase education spending/infrastructure spending/number of police men on the street/policy x/y...if Z amount of money is achieved in revenues must be one of the most perfidious things I have heard in a long time.


It's pretty benign if you grow up with it. In many states it is the only form of legal gambling, so 'state approved' doesn't really carry special weight. I doubt full prohibition would work either, and just drive the activity to the black market like drug or alcohol prohibition.


State approved ticked might have been poorly worded, too weak in getting the true meaning across. Given out and promoted by the state should work better. And not by a private entity.

That it's benign for most people is definitely true. On the other hand it also destroys lives or leads people on paths that destroy lives. If government should be in that business is despicable, or at least highly controversial if you ask me.

Having kind of a blind eye and focusing on how much taxes you collect from it is one thing, actually running it a whole different story.

Generally, the idea isn't that gambling is good and so the government should subsidize / expand gambling with taxpayer dollars. The idea is that gambling will happen regardless and so the government should regulate / restrict it and try to pull in as much as possible from the activity. That way it can turn around and use the money for something that benefits the public, like schools.

Also, keep in mind that lotteries are considered a bit of a benign gambling format. I'm not sure to what extent that's actually true, but they don't strike me as something that would be highly addictive.

Lol "lottery" is just a euphemism now.

Oregon now has slot machines called 'video lottery machines'. They aren't any more benign than Vegas slots. With messages like :"BET MAX to WIN MORE!" Even though the only practical way to win is to walk away/not play. Statistically you can't 'win' only lose more or less slowly if you continue to play.

If you are going to have a lottery or gambling in addition to listing the odds and payouts they should list the number of losers vs winners (people who took more from the lottery than it took from them). When people realized that virtually no one actually 'wins' they might be able to make more rational decisions.

The state shouldn't advertise or try to convince people to gamble period. Which is exactly what is happening now.

Different states do different things, sure. You're arguing a lot of opinion here. You don't like gambling so the government shouldn't be promoting something you don't like. Others think it's fine or fun so they think it's convenient revenue source.

Not sure why listing 'winners vs losers' is functionally different from odds and payouts. Gambling is a net loss, and you shouldn't really need to know more than that to make a decision. You should either play because you think its fun or you don't play at all.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
November 11 2014 01:11 GMT
#28383
On November 11 2014 09:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
-The internet works so well now, why on God's earth would you want to regulate it and add a big bureaucratic mess on top of it. It is not like government intervention has perfected TV or radio. It is nuts to think expanding government in another area (one that works) will actually improve it.


You do realize that without Net Neutrality the internet will still change?

Sites like TL may have to pay more just to maintain it's current speeds. Not to mention it would make sites like Twitch more expensive to maintain as they use a lot of bandwidth.

It would effectively destroy any chance of a smaller up and coming stream site from competing with twitch as it would take an investment not currently required. The same goes for Netflix and sites like Tumblr.

your pr0n would have more adds or cost more money, and plenty of other impacts. So please don't think that without the government the internet would work the same as it does now.

In addition Comcast (or another provider) could start charging you surcharges to access specific sites or just block them all together.

Isn't it more complicated that that? Doesn't a big user like Netflix disproportionally benefit from a system that doesn't charge it more for its greater use of infrastructure?
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18831 Posts
November 11 2014 01:16 GMT
#28384
I think "greater use of infrastructure" is actually way more complicated a concept than it seems at first glance. Who owns the infrastructure and how it is we even go about delineating that are not simply answered questions.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23276 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-11 01:28:45
November 11 2014 01:18 GMT
#28385
On November 11 2014 10:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2014 09:36 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 11 2014 09:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 11 2014 08:35 Doublemint wrote:
On November 11 2014 08:10 Chewbacca. wrote:
Liberals get the increase in tax revenue they want. Conservatives aren't forced to pay a tax so they're happy.

A lot of things have tension with religion; War, gay marriage, abortion, only 1 spouse.

It being possible to hurt a small amount of people seems like a silly argument. It is still helping people in the additional services offered by the government and it's voluntary. Compare this to something like food stamps or universal health care. They are both helping people, they are both hurting people, but the lottery is voluntary.

I mean I certainly don't love state lotteries, but not for any of the reasons you listed, but because the state locks out private companies from hosting their own lotteries. Which if there were private lotteries instead of state lotteries then the same "bad" things would be happening, but none of the "good" things that happen from the state gaining money would happen...which could be another argument for state lotteries.


Or compare it to crack. Why not heroin? State run brothel maybe? Human trafficking to go to the extreme! In principle it's the same following your logic.

On November 11 2014 08:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 11 2014 07:54 Doublemint wrote:
On November 11 2014 07:35 Chewbacca. wrote:
On November 11 2014 07:08 Doublemint wrote:
On November 11 2014 00:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
http://youtu.be/9PK-netuhHA?list=PLmKbqjSZR8TZa7wyVoVq2XMHxxWREyiFc


Your STATES, as in local governments by and for the people, actually run LOTTERIES? LOL. America never ceases to amaze.


Why is this bad? Basically a voluntary tax where the proceeds go to helping the people?


There are like a hundred reasons that come to mind.

Promoting gambling potentially causes a lot of suffering/is problematic because

-of its addictive nature
-its destructive nature
-its tension with religion
-it being a pipe dream, and "idiot tax" is the more appropriate term

just right on top of my head.

I have heard governments taxing/banning/regulating it, but never being the pusher themselves. That's a new one and more than questionable.

Luring people into buying a state approved ticket, by holding a golden carrot in front of their face that they are going to increase education spending/infrastructure spending/number of police men on the street/policy x/y...if Z amount of money is achieved in revenues must be one of the most perfidious things I have heard in a long time.


It's pretty benign if you grow up with it. In many states it is the only form of legal gambling, so 'state approved' doesn't really carry special weight. I doubt full prohibition would work either, and just drive the activity to the black market like drug or alcohol prohibition.


State approved ticked might have been poorly worded, too weak in getting the true meaning across. Given out and promoted by the state should work better. And not by a private entity.

That it's benign for most people is definitely true. On the other hand it also destroys lives or leads people on paths that destroy lives. If government should be in that business is despicable, or at least highly controversial if you ask me.

Having kind of a blind eye and focusing on how much taxes you collect from it is one thing, actually running it a whole different story.

Generally, the idea isn't that gambling is good and so the government should subsidize / expand gambling with taxpayer dollars. The idea is that gambling will happen regardless and so the government should regulate / restrict it and try to pull in as much as possible from the activity. That way it can turn around and use the money for something that benefits the public, like schools.

Also, keep in mind that lotteries are considered a bit of a benign gambling format. I'm not sure to what extent that's actually true, but they don't strike me as something that would be highly addictive.

Lol "lottery" is just a euphemism now.

Oregon now has slot machines called 'video lottery machines'. They aren't any more benign than Vegas slots. With messages like :"BET MAX to WIN MORE!" Even though the only practical way to win is to walk away/not play. Statistically you can't 'win' only lose more or less slowly if you continue to play.

If you are going to have a lottery or gambling in addition to listing the odds and payouts they should list the number of losers vs winners (people who took more from the lottery than it took from them). When people realized that virtually no one actually 'wins' they might be able to make more rational decisions.

The state shouldn't advertise or try to convince people to gamble period. Which is exactly what is happening now.

Different states do different things, sure. You're arguing a lot of opinion here. You don't like gambling so the government shouldn't be promoting something you don't like. Others think it's fine or fun so they think it's convenient revenue source.

Not sure why listing 'winners vs losers' is functionally different from odds and payouts. Gambling is a net loss, and you shouldn't really need to know more than that to make a decision. You should either play because you think its fun or you don't play at all.


And it's not benign... What matters is that gambling helps destroy peoples lives. I don't think it should be banned, but I do think the state shouldn't spend millions trying to talk it's citizens into doing it. (Would anyone be ok with the state paying for Alcohol or Cannabis commercials just because they think it is benign and lucrative? Oh and also prohibit anyone else from doing it?)

Moreover, it's f'd to sell them 'winning'. I'd be fine if gambling advertisements focused on the 'fun' and not dreaming about what you would do with your (unfathomably unlikely [almost impossible to obtain]) 'winnings'.

But those are the reasons the Lottery or gambling 'works'. Because too many people don't think it is about fun they think it is a ticket out of poverty (or their station in life), that only takes "A dollar and a dream". Some old guy at slot said it best "I'm going to go bankrupt if I keep winning"

For slot machines simply marking a $10 bet that returns $4 as a $6 loss instead of a $4 win (who else could possibly get away with such false advertisement?) would go a long way in helping people understand what gambling really is.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4795 Posts
November 11 2014 01:44 GMT
#28386
On November 11 2014 09:45 farvacola wrote:
"states hold too little power"

There are many, many voters in the Midwest, at the very least in Michigan and Ohio, that could not disagree with this statement more. At the very heart of the higher ed spending bubble problem is the hilarious amount of discretionary control state legislatures exercise over public universities; whenever anyone looks at the administrative and financial bloat that is getting put on in the name of education, we all know what a states rights conservative is going to point to. "Federal government loans," they'll say, "look at all the money they waste on ill-conceived federal intervention in the provision of an education!"

But wait a second, who exactly creates these loans bills in the first place? One may think that the universities and their unfettered, Federal-fed appetites are what dictate the terms of the millions of these financial agreements, but you'd be wrong. In the vast majority of states, legislatures are what create tuition policy in addition to playing a number of other administrative roles in supervising state-run higher education. Those areas that instead fall under the management of a university's board of trustees become safe-havens from the remote governance of partisan state legislatures, and that's why you'll see so many public universities (both of the schools I've gone to, Ohio State and Michigan State, are great examples of this) pile on building endowments and athletic investments willy nilly.

Nevertheless, state governing bodies possess a great degree of control over one of the largest industries in the United States, that being higher education, and there are numerous examples of how this authority has been routinely bungled by increasingly partisan legislatures, from Ohio to Washington, that simply don't have the expertise necessary to administrate many of the systems of which they are tasked. Furthermore, when hard-boiled partisanry is the inevitable replacement for the missing expertise, can you really fault those that are actually getting their hands dirty (sorta lol), those being school administrations, for unfairly reaching on spending in order to retain some degree of autonomy over the organization they were supposed to run in the first place? It is precisely the state's degree of control over the administration of services like education that puts some of our system's worst faults on display.

The United States must soon come to terms with its geography or the state vs. federalism debate is only going to get worse.


So because state legislatures fight over education in state schools federalism is bad? Do they not have partisan fights about things in Washington, or do you just trust the large bureaucracy that is the DoE more? Some states just run their schools better. Let's think long and hard before we change education too much, at least at the secondary level. We have some very good schools and some very bad ones. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

But I hardly see this as more than tangential to the point. The problem is, there is a large divide between states and DC. The states need to have their representation to protect their authority from the federal government that swoops in and makes sweeping laws that affect all states, regardless of geography. Centralizing authority just means that partisan fights have an even larger impacts on the nation.

I just love how the liberal solution to every issue or contentious matter is to centralize power and remove decision making from those most immediately affected.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
November 11 2014 01:45 GMT
#28387
Lotteries are the most cynical of politics: prey on the poor, the desperate, and the just plain stupid to avoid having to admit that you're taxing things. Sales tax, by the way, is a similarly cynical bet: regressive with the pretense of being a flat tax (but that rich people understand barely affects them.

The whole system of state lotteries is totally unethical, and yet the only opposition comes from a few religious groups, who are really more preoccupied by other things to do much.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
November 11 2014 01:46 GMT
#28388
On November 11 2014 10:18 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2014 10:03 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 11 2014 09:36 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 11 2014 09:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 11 2014 08:35 Doublemint wrote:
On November 11 2014 08:10 Chewbacca. wrote:
Liberals get the increase in tax revenue they want. Conservatives aren't forced to pay a tax so they're happy.

A lot of things have tension with religion; War, gay marriage, abortion, only 1 spouse.

It being possible to hurt a small amount of people seems like a silly argument. It is still helping people in the additional services offered by the government and it's voluntary. Compare this to something like food stamps or universal health care. They are both helping people, they are both hurting people, but the lottery is voluntary.

I mean I certainly don't love state lotteries, but not for any of the reasons you listed, but because the state locks out private companies from hosting their own lotteries. Which if there were private lotteries instead of state lotteries then the same "bad" things would be happening, but none of the "good" things that happen from the state gaining money would happen...which could be another argument for state lotteries.


Or compare it to crack. Why not heroin? State run brothel maybe? Human trafficking to go to the extreme! In principle it's the same following your logic.

On November 11 2014 08:20 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On November 11 2014 07:54 Doublemint wrote:
On November 11 2014 07:35 Chewbacca. wrote:
On November 11 2014 07:08 Doublemint wrote:
On November 11 2014 00:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
http://youtu.be/9PK-netuhHA?list=PLmKbqjSZR8TZa7wyVoVq2XMHxxWREyiFc


Your STATES, as in local governments by and for the people, actually run LOTTERIES? LOL. America never ceases to amaze.


Why is this bad? Basically a voluntary tax where the proceeds go to helping the people?


There are like a hundred reasons that come to mind.

Promoting gambling potentially causes a lot of suffering/is problematic because

-of its addictive nature
-its destructive nature
-its tension with religion
-it being a pipe dream, and "idiot tax" is the more appropriate term

just right on top of my head.

I have heard governments taxing/banning/regulating it, but never being the pusher themselves. That's a new one and more than questionable.

Luring people into buying a state approved ticket, by holding a golden carrot in front of their face that they are going to increase education spending/infrastructure spending/number of police men on the street/policy x/y...if Z amount of money is achieved in revenues must be one of the most perfidious things I have heard in a long time.


It's pretty benign if you grow up with it. In many states it is the only form of legal gambling, so 'state approved' doesn't really carry special weight. I doubt full prohibition would work either, and just drive the activity to the black market like drug or alcohol prohibition.


State approved ticked might have been poorly worded, too weak in getting the true meaning across. Given out and promoted by the state should work better. And not by a private entity.

That it's benign for most people is definitely true. On the other hand it also destroys lives or leads people on paths that destroy lives. If government should be in that business is despicable, or at least highly controversial if you ask me.

Having kind of a blind eye and focusing on how much taxes you collect from it is one thing, actually running it a whole different story.

Generally, the idea isn't that gambling is good and so the government should subsidize / expand gambling with taxpayer dollars. The idea is that gambling will happen regardless and so the government should regulate / restrict it and try to pull in as much as possible from the activity. That way it can turn around and use the money for something that benefits the public, like schools.

Also, keep in mind that lotteries are considered a bit of a benign gambling format. I'm not sure to what extent that's actually true, but they don't strike me as something that would be highly addictive.

Lol "lottery" is just a euphemism now.

Oregon now has slot machines called 'video lottery machines'. They aren't any more benign than Vegas slots. With messages like :"BET MAX to WIN MORE!" Even though the only practical way to win is to walk away/not play. Statistically you can't 'win' only lose more or less slowly if you continue to play.

If you are going to have a lottery or gambling in addition to listing the odds and payouts they should list the number of losers vs winners (people who took more from the lottery than it took from them). When people realized that virtually no one actually 'wins' they might be able to make more rational decisions.

The state shouldn't advertise or try to convince people to gamble period. Which is exactly what is happening now.

Different states do different things, sure. You're arguing a lot of opinion here. You don't like gambling so the government shouldn't be promoting something you don't like. Others think it's fine or fun so they think it's convenient revenue source.

Not sure why listing 'winners vs losers' is functionally different from odds and payouts. Gambling is a net loss, and you shouldn't really need to know more than that to make a decision. You should either play because you think its fun or you don't play at all.


And it's not benign... What matters is that gambling helps destroy peoples lives. I don't think it should be banned, but I do think the state shouldn't spend millions trying to talk it's citizens into doing it. (Would anyone be ok with the state paying for Alcohol or Cannabis commercials just because they think it is benign and lucrative? Oh and also prohibit anyone else from doing it?)

Moreover, it's f'd to sell them 'winning'. I'd be fine if gambling advertisements focused on the 'fun' and not dreaming about what you would do with your (unfathomably unlikely [almost impossible to obtain]) 'winnings'.

But those are the reasons the Lottery or gambling 'works'. Because too many people don't think it is about fun they think it is a ticket out of poverty (or their station in life), that only takes "A dollar and a dream". Some old guy at slot said it best "I'm going to go bankrupt if I keep winning"

For slot machines simply marking a $10 bet that returns $4 as a $6 loss instead of a $4 win (who else could possibly get away with such false advertisement?) would go a long way in helping people understand what gambling really is.

I don't see any harm from having the government vs a private entity do it, so there's no real difference to me. Like I said, this is heavy in opinion so I'm not going to keep arguing it.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
November 11 2014 02:08 GMT
#28389
On November 11 2014 09:45 farvacola wrote:
"states hold too little power"

There are many, many voters in the Midwest, at the very least in Michigan and Ohio, that could not disagree with this statement more. At the very heart of the higher ed spending bubble problem is the hilarious amount of discretionary control state legislatures exercise over public universities; whenever anyone looks at the administrative and financial bloat that is getting put on in the name of education, we all know what a states rights conservative is going to point to. "Federal government loans," they'll say, "look at all the money they waste on ill-conceived federal intervention in the provision of an education!"

But wait a second, who exactly creates these loans bills in the first place? One may think that the universities and their unfettered, Federal-fed appetites are what dictate the terms of the millions of these financial agreements, but you'd be wrong. In the vast majority of states, legislatures are what create tuition policy in addition to playing a number of other administrative roles in supervising state-run higher education. Those areas that instead fall under the management of a university's board of trustees become safe-havens from the remote governance of partisan state legislatures, and that's why you'll see so many public universities (both of the schools I've gone to, Ohio State and Michigan State, are great examples of this) pile on building endowments and athletic investments willy nilly.

Nevertheless, state governing bodies possess a great degree of control over one of the largest industries in the United States, that being higher education, and there are numerous examples of how this authority has been routinely bungled by increasingly partisan legislatures, from Ohio to Washington, that simply don't have the expertise necessary to administrate many of the systems of which they are tasked. Furthermore, when hard-boiled partisanry is the inevitable replacement for the missing expertise, can you really fault those that are actually getting their hands dirty (sorta lol), those being school administrations, for unfairly reaching on spending in order to retain some degree of autonomy over the organization they were supposed to run in the first place? It is precisely the state's degree of control over the administration of services like education that puts some of our system's worst faults on display.

The United States must soon come to terms with its geography or the state vs. federalism debate is only going to get worse.
It wasn't the states that nationalized the student loan industry. That would be the federal government.

I'm tired of senators that care about their states once every 6 years. How many scandals did we have where the senators listed addresses they never live at for their races? I know of at least three. Disconnected, politically ambitious, and nationally focused senators.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
November 11 2014 02:15 GMT
#28390
On November 11 2014 09:48 Nyxisto wrote:
I think "more government" is a really inaccurate term. I think it makes way more sense to distinguish between "wide government" as in many regulations, connections between politics and companies etc.. and strong but narrow government, like redistribution, or law-making regarding a specific problem or something like that. Net neutrality is not "government creeping into the awesome market" it only means that every package on the internet is supposed to be treated exactly the same. It's a single very simple thing that actually stops a lot of crap that could happen if there is no net neutrality.
Redistribution is rarely a narrow-minded government.

If you think giving government more regulatory power over the internet, and telling it to use this power to keep the notion of all-traffic-the-same alive, you've got another thing coming. Here's some power, and we're sure these enlightened bureaucrats are going to use it for good. Can any of you even name the five at the head of the FCC? Without googling, can you name who appointed them to the job? And is the NSA scandal and Fairness Doctrine really that ancient to have forgotten them?
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
November 11 2014 02:27 GMT
#28391
The government is not getting more regulative power over the internet. How is a law that tells every isp to treat all the information the same and not,for example, charge companies or end users for specific services, empowering the government? The government isn't even getting involved besides making a law.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
November 11 2014 02:33 GMT
#28392
This is an idiotic argument. Ted Cruz is just a Comcast (insert cable company) shill. The "pipes" that Chewbacca refers to shouldn't be owned by anyone. They are a public utility that is not operated as such. It would take a couple billion dollars at most to run lines and provide extremely fast internet to almost everyone in the United States. That's a fraction of a percent of the military budget. The only reason we even think that internet is a scarce resource is because the monopolies who control it have kept it that way. Other countries have far better networks that are provided far more cheaply, usually as a government service.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-11 02:51:41
November 11 2014 02:45 GMT
#28393
Some side effects to pipeline / energy opposition:

As Trains Move Oil Bonanza, Delays Mount for Other Goods and Passengers

WASHINGTON — An energy boom that has created a sharp increase in rail freight traffic nationwide is causing major delays for Amtrak passenger trains and is holding up the transport of vital consumer and industrial goods, including chemicals, coal and hundreds of thousands of new American cars, rail officials and federal and state regulators say. ...

Link

National Grid: state approves 37 percent electricity rate hike

BOSTON - The Massachusetts Department of Public Utilities has approved a 37 percent electricity rate hike proposed by National Grid. ...

Link

Bad decisions playing catch-up, I'm afraid.

Edit: second one is just local news
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
November 11 2014 04:50 GMT
#28394
On November 11 2014 11:27 Nyxisto wrote:
The government is not getting more regulative power over the internet. How is a law that tells every isp to treat all the information the same and not,for example, charge companies or end users for specific services, empowering the government? The government isn't even getting involved besides making a law.
This isn't a law. I mean for fuck's sakes are you even aware of what's going on? It's Obama pressuring or directing an agency of the US government to reclassify the net in order to regulate it like a public utility. It is not our legislative body crafting a new law that declares all traffic the same. Pretending otherwise is either ignorant or deceptive.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-11 05:06:00
November 11 2014 04:56 GMT
#28395
On November 11 2014 13:50 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2014 11:27 Nyxisto wrote:
The government is not getting more regulative power over the internet. How is a law that tells every isp to treat all the information the same and not,for example, charge companies or end users for specific services, empowering the government? The government isn't even getting involved besides making a law.
This isn't a law. I mean for fuck's sakes are you even aware of what's going on? It's Obama pressuring or directing an agency of the US government to reclassify the net in order to regulate it like a public utility. It is not our legislative body crafting a new law that declares all traffic the same. Pretending otherwise is either ignorant or deceptive.


Yes, so Obama wants the FCC to classify the internet as a public utility. ... What's the big deal? Is "oh gosh the president does something" already enough for the the American right to go crazy?

The president has exercised his right to make a common sense statement, that's a real shocker.
ZeaL.
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5955 Posts
November 11 2014 05:12 GMT
#28396
Cue discussion of executive vs legislative powers and how Obama has overreached in every way.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-11 05:29:38
November 11 2014 05:27 GMT
#28397
On November 11 2014 13:50 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2014 11:27 Nyxisto wrote:
The government is not getting more regulative power over the internet. How is a law that tells every isp to treat all the information the same and not,for example, charge companies or end users for specific services, empowering the government? The government isn't even getting involved besides making a law.
This isn't a law. I mean for fuck's sakes are you even aware of what's going on? It's Obama pressuring or directing an agency of the US government to reclassify the net in order to regulate it like a public utility. It is not our legislative body crafting a new law that declares all traffic the same. Pretending otherwise is either ignorant or deceptive.


It is a public utility. It's a natural monopoly (network effects, obviously) that is for the public good. Even you Danglars believe in free speech and the power of self-education. Why would you want to restrict access to the internet to those who can pay for it the most? Don't you understand that Comcast is a rent-collector that need not exist? What's hard about these concepts? It's like you hear "federal agency" and start flipping out regardless of the raison d'etre. You make fun of liberals for parroting talking points all the time and here you are embracing this conservative media crafted narrative about the "free market" of the internet and shouts for "less government." It's inane and a transparent attempt by those who stand to gain to reframe the narrative in a completely incoherent fashion.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-11 06:02:12
November 11 2014 05:57 GMT
#28398
On November 11 2014 13:50 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2014 11:27 Nyxisto wrote:
The government is not getting more regulative power over the internet. How is a law that tells every isp to treat all the information the same and not,for example, charge companies or end users for specific services, empowering the government? The government isn't even getting involved besides making a law.
This isn't a law. I mean for fuck's sakes are you even aware of what's going on? It's Obama pressuring or directing an agency of the US government to reclassify the net in order to regulate it like a public utility. It is not our legislative body crafting a new law that declares all traffic the same. Pretending otherwise is either ignorant or deceptive.

Well, keep in mind that the current market structure is heavily influenced by past FCC regulations / decisions. So it's largely a swap of this regulation for that regulation.

On past FCC reg decisions: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/04/04/299060527/episode-529-the-last-mile

Edit: I mean you could argue that what we have now is a 'regulated industry' like airlines or railroads were (government regulates the competition) that needs to be deregulated.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
November 11 2014 06:31 GMT
#28399
It's silly to even talk about privatizing internet providers. No one can own the network, and pretending to "privatize" a natural monopoly like an internet network is an insult to society. As it is we have leeches sucking rents from customers for use of a network they mostly didn't lay.

The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
November 11 2014 06:37 GMT
#28400
On November 11 2014 15:31 IgnE wrote:
It's silly to even talk about privatizing internet providers. No one can own the network, and pretending to "privatize" a natural monopoly like an internet network is an insult to society. As it is we have leeches sucking rents from customers for use of a network they mostly didn't lay.


Not everything about internet service is a 'natural monopoly'.
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