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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
October 30 2014 04:26 GMT
#27581
Well let's say you take public transit to work and you have a kid that you have to put in childcare and if you take time off to go to the DMV, which is far away, you lose money, have to pay a sitter, and risk getting fired. But the state ID doesn't cost very much money to get. Is that expensive or not?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5013 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-30 04:49:33
October 30 2014 04:42 GMT
#27582
I'm not sure that for a significant portion of the population they couldn't take a lunch break to stop by the DMV or ask their boss. I wonder how realistic that situation is. From what I've read of the court cases so far (granted it's been a while) there have been almost no cases where these civil rights groups have been able to demonstrate that the hardship angle was actually a real worry, i.e., all their examples were found lacking or the trade-off was acceptable, since it was so small.

This rings true as well because most of the population has some form of government ID. You need it for lots of things- banks, liquor, driving, etc.

"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-30 05:00:50
October 30 2014 04:59 GMT
#27583
On October 30 2014 13:42 Introvert wrote:
I'm not sure that for a significant portion of the population they couldn't take a lunch break to stop by the DMV or ask their boss. I wonder how realistic that situation is. From what I've read of the court cases so far (granted it's been a while) there have been almost no cases where these civil rights groups have been able to demonstrate that the hardship angle was actually a real worry, i.e., all their examples were found lacking or the trade-off was acceptable, since it was so small.

This rings true as well because most of the population has some form of government ID. You need it for lots of things- banks, liquor, driving, etc.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/10/us/politics/supreme-court-blocks-wisconsin-voter-id-law.html?_r=0

Update for you.

Also, you don't need expensive licenses to buy and own firearms, unless it's serious equipment.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24209 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-30 05:05:35
October 30 2014 05:04 GMT
#27584
I'm not sure that for a significant portion of the population they couldn't take a lunch break to stop by the DMV or ask their boss.


This says so much more than you know...We can agree that the voter ID laws are an unnecessary waste of time and money, and agree to disagree on the rest.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5013 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-30 05:11:32
October 30 2014 05:06 GMT
#27585
Ok, so the case is ongoing but blocked for now because of how close it is to the election. Fair enough. I guess. Meanwhile the Texas one is relatively unhindered, 6-3 it appears, pending more court battles.

I amend the statement to say that few, if any,"finished" cases have found another state's laws to fail due to the hardship (or burden) argument.

This says so much more than you know...We can agree that the voter ID laws are an unnecessary waste of time and money, and agree to disagree on the rest.


You are so annoying when you do that. I didn't say it never happens. You ignored what I said immediately after that, as if I was just spouting off at random. I'm saying that based on currently established fact, it's not a real, sizable concern. Maybe you should contact the ACLU and let them know about all the cases you found- I'm sure they'd appreciate it.

Whatever, agree to disagree.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
October 30 2014 05:08 GMT
#27586
hardship isn't the standard. it's a distorting and undue burden.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
October 30 2014 06:12 GMT
#27587
On October 30 2014 14:08 oneofthem wrote:
hardship isn't the standard. it's a distorting and undue burden.


What does this post mean?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8760 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-30 06:33:06
October 30 2014 06:31 GMT
#27588
On October 30 2014 15:12 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2014 14:08 oneofthem wrote:
hardship isn't the standard. it's a distorting and undue burden.


What does this post mean?


When you know all the arguments in and out, but more so "right and wrong", you are bored and discuss things on a meta level from time to time.

But I have not thanked him for the INETeconomics link yet, so thanks one!
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before the fall.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24209 Posts
October 30 2014 06:39 GMT
#27589
I didn't say it never happens.


I never said you did?

I'm saying that based on currently established fact, it's not a real, sizable concern.


This is talking about voter fraud right? So we should probably just stop wasting taxpayer money and courts times arguing for laws we don't need when there are plenty of ones we do need or need amending right?

Or is it good practice to waste time and money solving problems (with inexplicable solutions) that for all practical purposes don't exist?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5013 Posts
October 30 2014 06:43 GMT
#27590
On October 30 2014 15:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
I didn't say it never happens.


I never said you did?

Show nested quote +
I'm saying that based on currently established fact, it's not a real, sizable concern.


This is talking about voter fraud right? So we should probably just stop wasting taxpayer money and courts times arguing for laws we don't need when there are plenty of ones we do need or need amending right?

Or is it good practice to waste time and money solving problems (with inexplicable solutions) that for all practical purposes don't exist?


That was about the hardship/burden objection in the court cases, not voter fraud.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24209 Posts
October 30 2014 07:18 GMT
#27591
On October 30 2014 15:43 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2014 15:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
I didn't say it never happens.


I never said you did?

I'm saying that based on currently established fact, it's not a real, sizable concern.


This is talking about voter fraud right? So we should probably just stop wasting taxpayer money and courts times arguing for laws we don't need when there are plenty of ones we do need or need amending right?

Or is it good practice to waste time and money solving problems (with inexplicable solutions) that for all practical purposes don't exist?


That was about the hardship/burden objection in the court cases, not voter fraud.


Does it not aptly describe voter fraud?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
October 30 2014 07:30 GMT
#27592
You guys clearly haven't watch Alpha House season 2 yet.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5013 Posts
October 30 2014 07:41 GMT
#27593
hardy-har, a couple of jokesters!
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24209 Posts
October 30 2014 07:56 GMT
#27594
On October 30 2014 16:41 Introvert wrote:
hardy-har, a couple of jokesters!


So that's a yes?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5013 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-30 08:14:13
October 30 2014 08:11 GMT
#27595
I was just going to drop it. But personally, voter ID is not high on my list of urgent things to deal with. At the same time, these are state lead efforts, they can do what they want while the federal government continues to be of more pressing importance.

Though polls are generally supportive of voter ID as an idea, so as a purely political matter it could work.

But no, not in my top 5 list of things to be concerned about. Honestly I was just bored earlier. Combine that with my annoyance of all this "suppression" BS, and I decided wade in.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24209 Posts
October 30 2014 08:20 GMT
#27596
On October 30 2014 17:11 Introvert wrote:
I was just going to drop it. But personally, voter ID is not high on my list of urgent things to deal with. At the same time, these are state lead efforts, they can do what they want while the federal government continues to be of more pressing importance.

Though polls are generally supportive of voter ID as an idea, so as a purely political matter it could work.

But no, not in my top 5 list of things to be concerned about. Honestly I was just bored earlier. Combine that with my annoyance of all this "suppression" BS, and I decided wade in.


Can we agree that it is wasteful of both time and money? That other than the (ethereal) political advantage and the undeniable (concrete) additional voting hurdles, it doesn't address a problem which has influenced any recent election? But that these laws do create real problems (even if only 'minor inconveniences') for many people (even if we don't agree on the number)?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5013 Posts
October 30 2014 08:38 GMT
#27597
I have no idea how much it costs, most states have a very low number of people who take advantage of the free ID's. So your cost would have to come from somewhere else, and google is proving to be very unhelpful. Perhaps the cost isn't worth it, I have no idea.

Basically you want me to agree with almost every point you were making from the beginning. No thanks. You already have my opinion. And I'm just going to leave it at at that.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24209 Posts
October 30 2014 09:35 GMT
#27598
On October 30 2014 17:38 Introvert wrote:
I have no idea how much it costs, most states have a very low number of people who take advantage of the free ID's. So your cost would have to come from somewhere else, and google is proving to be very unhelpful. Perhaps the cost isn't worth it, I have no idea.

Basically you want me to agree with almost every point you were making from the beginning. No thanks. You already have my opinion. And I'm just going to leave it at at that.



At this point I don't know what you disagree with other than the words 'voter suppression'?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-30 15:40:10
October 30 2014 15:37 GMT
#27599
*golfclap*

The Obama administration has released a final version of regulations targeting for-profit colleges that is significantly weaker than the initial rules proposed earlier this year, caving to complaints and legal threats from industry lobbyists.

The regulations could still shut down 1,400 programs at for-profit colleges, which collectively enroll about 840,000 students.
The administration has made reining in the for-profit college industry a key component of its education agenda.

For-profit college companies, like Apollo, which owns the University of Phoenix and DeVry, receive billions of dollars of taxpayer money each year in the form of federal financial aid, drawing as much as 90% of their revenue from the federal government. Many of the biggest for-profits are mired in lawsuits from organizations like the Justice Department, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and dozens of state attorneys general, which allege a raft of violations, from misleading enrollment claims to predatory lending schemes.

For-profit college students make up just 11% of the total higher education population, but take out a disproportionate
percentage of federal loans, defaulting on them at high rates. Their earnings after graduating from programs targeted by the employment regulations, such as medical assisting and cosmetology, are relatively low, and students sometimes pay up to four times as much for their educations as they would have done at a community college.

The for-profit college industry says its students’ high debt levels are simply proof that it largely enrolls poor and minority students, who are more likely to need to borrow to finance their education.

The administration’s “gainful employment” regulations cut off access to federal funding for career training programs — the vast majority of them at for-profit colleges — where students graduate with high levels of student debt in comparison to their earnings. But a second accountability metric which would have penalized programs with high loan default rates was dropped in the final version after being included in the preliminary regulations released in March.

Five hundred programs that would have failed the draft rules are now expected to pass, Education Department officials said.

The administration likely dropped that second metric to give the regulations stronger legal footing. In the past, attempts to regulate the for-profit college industry fell prey to industry lobbyists, who successfully sued to strike down a 2011 version of the gainful employment rule. In that case, a judge ruled that one of the regulations’ two metrics, the rate at which students repaid their loans, was invalid because it was set arbitrarily.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
October 30 2014 17:18 GMT
#27600
On October 30 2014 15:31 Doublemint wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 30 2014 15:12 IgnE wrote:
On October 30 2014 14:08 oneofthem wrote:
hardship isn't the standard. it's a distorting and undue burden.


What does this post mean?


When you know all the arguments in and out, but more so "right and wrong", you are bored and discuss things on a meta level from time to time.

But I have not thanked him for the INETeconomics link yet, so thanks one!

well this is not a meta comment lol. i was just saying introvert keeps focusing on "hardship" when it's too high of a standard. an undue burden is to get an id so close to the elections, and it is distorting politically.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
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