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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18857 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-13 22:20:14
October 13 2014 22:15 GMT
#26861
On October 14 2014 06:58 Atreides wrote:
As someone who actually lives in Alaska where the verdict in question was handed down against, its not like you could discriminate against homosexuals in the way you are talking anyways. Jobs, housing, etc. I spent quite a bit of time last couple weeks screening rental applicants because my parents went on a cruise while having adds out etc for their apartment and that is definitely on the no-no list of things to turn people down for. People drag this topic so far off track all the time. The Alaska legislature had just passed a statute legally defining marriage. It's not like it legalized discriminating against gays.

The Supreme Court has found that federal statutes that legally define marriage enumerate specific rights and obligations that are then withheld from a particular group without any sort of meaningful justification. The intention behind the legislation is mostly immaterial; the resulting inequality in legal status controls the application of laws like those that govern taxes, housing, SS, and trial rights among others; it isn't exactly difficult to see how such applications might conflict with due process or equal protection under the law, and are thus unconstitutional.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-13 22:27:22
October 13 2014 22:27 GMT
#26862
Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts harshly criticized President Obama and his economic advisers during a long interview with Salon that focuses on economic issues. At one point, the interviewer, Thomas Frank, mentions how he and his friends “are pretty disappointed” with Obama’s track record on protecting the little guy from moneyed interests. Warren said she “understands” the frustration, making it clear she feels the same way.

“He picked his economic team and when the going got tough, his economic team picked Wall Street,” Warren said. Frank answers that it seems the economic team “just about ever time” sided with Wall Street.” Warren agrees:

That’s right. They protected Wall Street. Not families who were losing their homes. Not people who lost their jobs. Not young people who were struggling to get an education. And it happened over and over and over.

At the same time, Warren does have some praise for Obama, saying she’s convinced that if he hadn’t been president “we would not have a Consumer Financial Protection Bureau” because “he was the one who refused to throw the agency under the bus and made sure that his team kept the agency alive and on the table.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23982 Posts
October 13 2014 23:15 GMT
#26863
The "defining marriage' crowd are something else... I have found that the people making claims on what 'marriage has always been' actually don't have a clue about the history of marriage (outside of their religiously inspired 'history').

But yeah, I mean woe to the world if we allow gays to get married and ruin the sanctity of peoples 3rd marriage...?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
October 13 2014 23:17 GMT
#26864
I think it would just be a good idea to get rid of the public marriage status altogether.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
October 13 2014 23:20 GMT
#26865
obama is a chicago and harvard guy so that is to be expected.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 13 2014 23:52 GMT
#26866
Global warming is changing the way the US trains for and goes to war – affecting war games, weapons systems, training exercises, and military installations – according to the Pentagon.

The defence secretary, Chuck Hagel, will tell a high-level meeting of military leaders on Monday that the Pentagon is undertaking sweeping changes to operation systems and installations to keep up with a growing threat of rising seas, droughts, and natural disasters caused by climate change.

“A changing climate will have real impacts on our military and the way it executes its missions,” Hagel wrote in his introduction to a Pentagon report out today. “We are considering the impacts of climate change in our war games and defence planning scenarios.”

The Pentagon’s strategic planners have for years viewed climate change as a “threat multiplier”– worsening old conflicts and potentially provoking new clashes over migration and shortages of food and water in the Middle East, Africa and Asia, and opening up new military challenges in a melting Arctic.


Source



Scientists Think They Know What's Causing a Big Cloud of Methane Over the Southwest

For years, satellites have detected unusually high concentrations of the noxious gas in the Four Corners region.

Methane is an extremely baleful greenhouse gas, with more than 20 times the pound-for-pound impact on global warming as CO2. So imagine the alarm scientists felt when they noticed a big ol' cloud of it, pouring out of the Southwest like noxious vapors from a volcano.

The plume measured half the size of Connecticut and represented the annual release of about 0.59 million metric tons of methane. You can see it floating above the Four Corners region in the above image, which shows how much emissions varied from average background concentrations from 2003 to 2009. While areas with less methane are shown in darker colors, the plume's intense reds and oranges indicate the discharge of more than three times the amount of gas than what had been recorded on the ground.

Scientists initially couldn't believe so much methane was rushing out of the dirt. "We didn't focus on it because we weren't sure if it was a true signal or an instrument error," says NASA's Christian Frankenberg, who first picked up on the gaseous aberration in European satellite data. But experts from the Department of Energy and the University of Michigan verified the widespread leaking, and the guessing game began on where it was coming from.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 14 2014 00:02 GMT
#26867
On October 13 2014 22:30 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2014 22:26 oneofthem wrote:
should change that 'are' to 'were' since le precedents law is ever changing.

Whether a group is "protected" is a question of statute, not case law and precedent. Until Congress plugs in sexual orientation as one of the protected classes in Title VII (and related statutes), homosexuals won't be "protected" at a federal level. But yes, when you're talking about these court decisions striking down anti-gay marriage laws, the legal reasoning is a bit wanting, which is why it would appear at first glance that homosexuals are now "protected."

EDIT: Just to underscore this point, I went back and reviewed the Windsor decision and some of it progeny. It's a mess of a decision and lower courts aren't even in agreement regarding what the actual reasoning was. The only thing that's clear is the result.
Exactly. The courts are contorting themselves to adjudicate these topics, eager to follow in Windsor's wake. Proponents are ramming it through the courts and not actually making statutes just like every other law dealing with social issues where the state has an interest. And, god that Windsor decision. Scrappy play, liberals, scrappy play.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
October 14 2014 00:46 GMT
#26868
damn the liberals. damn them
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
October 14 2014 02:17 GMT
#26869
Liberals are always ramming things through other things.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
October 14 2014 08:47 GMT
#26870
On October 14 2014 07:27 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts harshly criticized President Obama and his economic advisers during a long interview with Salon that focuses on economic issues. At one point, the interviewer, Thomas Frank, mentions how he and his friends “are pretty disappointed” with Obama’s track record on protecting the little guy from moneyed interests. Warren said she “understands” the frustration, making it clear she feels the same way.

“He picked his economic team and when the going got tough, his economic team picked Wall Street,” Warren said. Frank answers that it seems the economic team “just about ever time” sided with Wall Street.” Warren agrees:

That’s right. They protected Wall Street. Not families who were losing their homes. Not people who lost their jobs. Not young people who were struggling to get an education. And it happened over and over and over.

At the same time, Warren does have some praise for Obama, saying she’s convinced that if he hadn’t been president “we would not have a Consumer Financial Protection Bureau” because “he was the one who refused to throw the agency under the bus and made sure that his team kept the agency alive and on the table.”


Source

I will point out that you can't have it both ways, where big banks fail but people are protected. For better or worse, they are inextricably tied and they were especially so during the last crisis. Killing off the big banks would have made things much worse for everyone, Wall Street and Main Street. Nationalization is not a realistic option in the United States for a variety of reasons from culture to politics to the scale and centrality of the problem.

Obama has given in to Wall Street almost every time and it's certainly worth criticizing his selection of advisers. Obama is a starfucker who picked more starfuckers, people who don't really know what they're doing but they know how to crib answers that sound good. Read Tim Geithner's autobiography. If you think you got over by writing drunken nonsense on a 15 page college paper in the two hours before it was due and getting an A, Geithner devoted his entire life to bullshitting so hard that he got to sign his name on money. It is notable that Geithner's book ends with an attempt to dead-leg Warren as he says she's full of shit. Takes one to know one, I guess.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-14 08:57:43
October 14 2014 08:57 GMT
#26871
Nationalization is an option. Saying it's not realistic because of "culture to politics [...]" is an assertion without bite: it's not plausible because it is not something we did; if it were plausible we might have done it. When you limit your options like that you can start saying things like, "the only option we had was to bail out the banks the way we did, because culture, politics, and the scale of the problem required it."
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10888 Posts
October 14 2014 09:08 GMT
#26872
Iirc Island didn't bail out their Banks and has recovered quite good from it?
Atreides
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2393 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-14 11:55:44
October 14 2014 11:50 GMT
#26873
On October 14 2014 07:15 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2014 06:58 Atreides wrote:
As someone who actually lives in Alaska where the verdict in question was handed down against, its not like you could discriminate against homosexuals in the way you are talking anyways. Jobs, housing, etc. I spent quite a bit of time last couple weeks screening rental applicants because my parents went on a cruise while having adds out etc for their apartment and that is definitely on the no-no list of things to turn people down for. People drag this topic so far off track all the time. The Alaska legislature had just passed a statute legally defining marriage. It's not like it legalized discriminating against gays.

The Supreme Court has found that federal statutes that legally define marriage enumerate specific rights and obligations that are then withheld from a particular group without any sort of meaningful justification. The intention behind the legislation is mostly immaterial; the resulting inequality in legal status controls the application of laws like those that govern taxes, housing, SS, and trial rights among others; it isn't exactly difficult to see how such applications might conflict with due process or equal protection under the law, and are thus unconstitutional.


I think I was a little misunderstood here. I'm pretty ambivalent about this topic in general. Had lots of gay classmates etc through college and gradschool. Some I liked, some I didnt. Just people. That said I also don't have a huge issue with gay couples having the same legal status as unmarried heterosexual couples. There are (in my opinion) both good and bad arguments for both points of view. But I really don't care that much about it either way. I do find the pro-gay "arguers" to be just as hilarious and often stupid (I actually run into a LOT more of them) as the ultra-conservative "sanctity of marriage" crowd.

Anyways, not an issue I care about, but it is being made a big deal of up here right at the moment. Mostly because people don't like supreme court ruling against state legislative things. There is a VERY strong anti federal interference sentiment in Alaska, that is much of why it is such a topic.

Edit: As a single dude, I wouldn't mind the "get rid of (or reduce) the actual legal benefits of marriage" option. Get quite shafted on taxes, buying a house which I'm in the process of right now, etc. Any possible arguments you can make about legal definitions of marriage "discriminating" against gays apply to single people as well pretty much.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
October 14 2014 12:06 GMT
#26874
On October 14 2014 17:57 IgnE wrote:
Nationalization is an option. Saying it's not realistic because of "culture to politics [...]" is an assertion without bite: it's not plausible because it is not something we did; if it were plausible we might have done it. When you limit your options like that you can start saying things like, "the only option we had was to bail out the banks the way we did, because culture, politics, and the scale of the problem required it."

It wasn't realistic, not unless the problems got much much worse, which is what they were in Sweden and Iceland, and they aren't even marginal players in global financial markets (the market cap of the entire Stockholm Stock Exchange is $350 billion, about the same size as Microsoft).

It was doubtful legally that the US could nationalize the big banks and I don't think suspending civil rights laws for a financial crisis to seize the assets of large financial institutions was a political move the Obama administration wanted to make, especially when it had been forced to insist throughout the campaign that Obama was not a socialist and the Bush administration already drew up a tentative plan with TARP and stimulus bills to keep markets moving and it seemed to be working. It was a matter of perception - Bush might have been able to pull off nationalization in the same way that Obama can pull off drone strikes (because of the gravitas that they inherently oppose it but think it's necessary), but Bush made it clear he wasn't going to go there unless things got really ugly.

Either way, saying Obama "picked Wall Street" and acting like he cared more about bankers than citizens is a bit dramatic.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 14 2014 16:26 GMT
#26875
Kentucky Gov. Steve Beshear (D) accused Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY) of misleading Kentuckians about Obamacare when the Senate Republican leader said on Monday night he wants to repeal the law but believes it's "fine" to keep the state's Obamacare exchange, Kynect.

"Tonight, Mitch McConnell looked into the camera and misled Kentucky about his plan to take Kynect from more than 500,000 Kentuckians who have gained health care in the last year," the governor said in a statement. "Mitch told Kentuckians he'd keep the website up, while pulling the plug on federal funding, tax credits, and tearing down a marketplace that has made Kentucky a model of success for the nation — all to advance his partisan political agenda that has Washington in gridlock to the point of paralysis."

Kynect, the state's portal for Obamacare, has funneled federal subsidies to cover some 500,000 Kentuckians on the private insurance market or Medicaid.

During Monday night's Senate debate, McConnell called Obamacare "the worst piece of legislation in the last half-century" and said it should be repealed "root and branch." When pressed on the impacts of scrapping the law, McConnell said it's "fine" to keep the Kynect website, though he didn't address whether he would take away the subsidies if Obamacare is repealed, or whether he would fund them a different way.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 14 2014 18:32 GMT
#26876
You know inequality is getting bad when it's making a Swiss bank uncomfortable.

The ratio of wealth to household income in the U.S., a measure of inequality, is the highest it has been since just before the Great Depression, Credit Suisse noted in a 64-page report on global wealth released on Monday. The bank also warned that this was not good news for the health of the economy:

"This is a worrying signal given that abnormally high wealth income ratios have always signaled recession in the past," the bank wrote.

Meanwhile, the richest 1 percent in the world own 48 percent of all the world's wealth, according to Credit Suisse -- a worrying signal for the global economy.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18857 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-14 22:30:12
October 14 2014 22:23 GMT
#26877
On October 14 2014 20:50 Atreides wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2014 07:15 farvacola wrote:
On October 14 2014 06:58 Atreides wrote:
As someone who actually lives in Alaska where the verdict in question was handed down against, its not like you could discriminate against homosexuals in the way you are talking anyways. Jobs, housing, etc. I spent quite a bit of time last couple weeks screening rental applicants because my parents went on a cruise while having adds out etc for their apartment and that is definitely on the no-no list of things to turn people down for. People drag this topic so far off track all the time. The Alaska legislature had just passed a statute legally defining marriage. It's not like it legalized discriminating against gays.

The Supreme Court has found that federal statutes that legally define marriage enumerate specific rights and obligations that are then withheld from a particular group without any sort of meaningful justification. The intention behind the legislation is mostly immaterial; the resulting inequality in legal status controls the application of laws like those that govern taxes, housing, SS, and trial rights among others; it isn't exactly difficult to see how such applications might conflict with due process or equal protection under the law, and are thus unconstitutional.


I think I was a little misunderstood here. I'm pretty ambivalent about this topic in general. Had lots of gay classmates etc through college and gradschool. Some I liked, some I didnt. Just people. That said I also don't have a huge issue with gay couples having the same legal status as unmarried heterosexual couples. There are (in my opinion) both good and bad arguments for both points of view. But I really don't care that much about it either way. I do find the pro-gay "arguers" to be just as hilarious and often stupid (I actually run into a LOT more of them) as the ultra-conservative "sanctity of marriage" crowd.

Anyways, not an issue I care about, but it is being made a big deal of up here right at the moment. Mostly because people don't like supreme court ruling against state legislative things. There is a VERY strong anti federal interference sentiment in Alaska, that is much of why it is such a topic.

Edit: As a single dude, I wouldn't mind the "get rid of (or reduce) the actual legal benefits of marriage" option. Get quite shafted on taxes, buying a house which I'm in the process of right now, etc. Any possible arguments you can make about legal definitions of marriage "discriminating" against gays apply to single people as well pretty much.

Like any popular social movement "for change", there is a certain irritating quality in how persistent and single-minded the group can be in relation to the achievement of their goal. The problem in stopping there is that part of what fuels such fervor comes from the gravity and meaning of the pursuit relative to those engaged in it; the stories of same-sex spouses being unable to take part in deciding the fate of their sick partner or being totally without monetary or legal recourse following the death of their husband or wife are very real, and if you had experienced such a thing or known and loved people that have, you'd probably be far less likely to attribute the "hype" behind a state like Alaska's issuing of same-sex marriage licenses so substantially to anti-federalist attitudes or mere annoyance. States right's types like to pretend that stilted, semi-accurate principles of popular limited governance compete with or even override the realities of a geographically splintered yet inexorably interconnected legal geography that lead to sizable groups of people having rights denied to them that are guaranteed elsewhere. That just ain't so.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Deleted User 183001
Profile Joined May 2011
2939 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-14 23:17:40
October 14 2014 23:17 GMT
#26878
Odierno Warns Budget Cuts Puts Army Readiness at Risk

The U.S. Army's top officer spoke in his strongest terms yet about the harmful effects of automatic budget cuts on the military.

In comments that seemed directed more at lawmakers than soldiers, Army Chief of Staff Gen. Raymond Odierno said the service faces significant long-term challenges because of across-the-board spending reductions known as sequestration.

"Frankly, as I stand here, military risk is accumulating exponentially," he said during a speech on Tuesday at an annual conference in Washington, D.C., organized by the Association of the United States Army.

"We are reducing the size of our ground forces, we are not fully resourcing required readiness, and we are slashing our modernization and procurement programs," Odierno told a crowd of mostly military members and defense industry officials. "In my opinion, this is a time we should be increasing those investments. We should be reinvesting in order to rebuild and sustain a force capable of conducting the full range of operations."

Defense reductions will account for about half of the $1.2 trillion in decade-long spending cuts mandated by the 2011 Budget Control Act. While Congress agreed to undo some of those reductions in fiscal 2014 and 2015, the cuts are set to return in full in fiscal 2016.

After growing in size to 570,000 soldiers in 2008 at the height of the war in Iraq, the Army has about 510,000 soldiers today, according to Pentagon figures, and is on pace to shrink to 490,000 soldiers in fiscal 2015. It's bracing for even further contraction driven by sequestration and an end to the U.S.-led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, where some 9,800 American troops will be serving by year's end.

The service's end strength is slated to decrease to 440,000-450,000 soldiers by 2017. If automatic budget cuts remain in effect, the number may fall to as low as 420,000 soldiers -- tens of thousands less than what Odierno has said is needed to adequately respond to conflicts around the world.
...

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/10/14/odierno-warns-budget-cuts-puts-army-readiness-at-risk.html
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
October 14 2014 23:38 GMT
#26879
On October 15 2014 08:17 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
Odierno Warns Budget Cuts Puts Army Readiness at Risk
Show nested quote +

The U.S. Army's top officer spoke in his strongest terms yet about the harmful effects of automatic budget cuts on the military.

In comments that seemed directed more at lawmakers than soldiers, Army Chief of Staff Gen. Raymond Odierno said the service faces significant long-term challenges because of across-the-board spending reductions known as sequestration.

"Frankly, as I stand here, military risk is accumulating exponentially," he said during a speech on Tuesday at an annual conference in Washington, D.C., organized by the Association of the United States Army.

"We are reducing the size of our ground forces, we are not fully resourcing required readiness, and we are slashing our modernization and procurement programs," Odierno told a crowd of mostly military members and defense industry officials. "In my opinion, this is a time we should be increasing those investments. We should be reinvesting in order to rebuild and sustain a force capable of conducting the full range of operations."

Defense reductions will account for about half of the $1.2 trillion in decade-long spending cuts mandated by the 2011 Budget Control Act. While Congress agreed to undo some of those reductions in fiscal 2014 and 2015, the cuts are set to return in full in fiscal 2016.

After growing in size to 570,000 soldiers in 2008 at the height of the war in Iraq, the Army has about 510,000 soldiers today, according to Pentagon figures, and is on pace to shrink to 490,000 soldiers in fiscal 2015. It's bracing for even further contraction driven by sequestration and an end to the U.S.-led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, where some 9,800 American troops will be serving by year's end.

The service's end strength is slated to decrease to 440,000-450,000 soldiers by 2017. If automatic budget cuts remain in effect, the number may fall to as low as 420,000 soldiers -- tens of thousands less than what Odierno has said is needed to adequately respond to conflicts around the world.
...

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/10/14/odierno-warns-budget-cuts-puts-army-readiness-at-risk.html

We have 300 million guns. We don't even need a military for defense.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44012 Posts
October 14 2014 23:44 GMT
#26880
Fortunately we'll be able to set the police on the enemy. They've been training pretty hard.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
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