EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 1260
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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bookwyrm
United States722 Posts
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On September 01 2014 03:05 bookwyrm wrote: Yes exactly! The 'equal time' approach is also a particular agenda (because it defines what are the two sides which must be given equal time)! There is no neutrality. This is what you must teach them. I agree that the lies of the right must be fought - but don't pretend that what you are fighting is not a Holy War. The right KNOW that they are fighting a Holy War - and that is why they are winning. If students learned only one thing in school, and that one thing was 'everyone will lie to you', I would consider that a resounding success. And the number of anarchists would surge as well as other people unwilling to learn anything in schools. Fighting a consensus is not fighting for an agenda as such unless you are truely an anarchist. When it comes to "Holy War" I would hope the 90-95 % professional consensus approach to information selection wins instead of a political agenda, which is quite a different story... But who says that you cannot teach the kids to look at both the side of Neamathla of Fowltown and Gaines? That is a lot different from the politizising you are trying to pawn off. | ||
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Introvert
United States5029 Posts
On September 01 2014 03:19 Nyxisto wrote: This fear of institutions can also go to far. Notorious distrust in any form of authority in it's most extreme form will not enlighten you but turn you into a conspiracy nut. I think an example of this is is how people nowadays seem to distrust everything accomplished journalists produce and instead start to throw each other dozens of twitter posts in the face. I doubt that these people have come any closer to the truth. The national review article used the phrase "American exceptionalism" about 50 times, which honestly translates to nothing else but "America is always right!!" I didn't say anything about the institution, schools, etc. I don't distrust them. I distrust a few people trying to set large guidelines that overrride those in the state and make determinations on what should and should not be taught. You were the same person who a few days ago criticized Americans for thinking we are always right and was corrected on that. You should probably stop talking about this sort of stuff because you have no idea what you are talking about. That's not what American Exceptionalism means, and those who are fond of it do not think we always right. That's just a caricature. Unfortunately, it's one many things some of the people in this thread believe it is, even Americans. But that just comes from a lack of exposure. | ||
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Introvert
United States5029 Posts
On September 01 2014 03:19 bookwyrm wrote: It's necessary because of the ongoing corporatization of American education and the dronificiation of the American student. You need to make them machine readable, for efficiency. This is what it means to run a school 'like a business' (which is, remember, a rightist project) There are many on the right opposing Common Core for that very reason, you know. You do realize the tests are still written by the Board? That's not what's changing. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On September 01 2014 03:19 Nyxisto wrote: This fear of institutions can also go to far. Notorious distrust in any form of authority in it's most extreme form will not enlighten you but turn you into a conspiracy nut. I think an example of this is is how people nowadays seem to distrust everything accomplished journalists produce and instead start to throw each other dozens of twitter posts in the face. I doubt that these people have come any closer to the truth. The national review article used the phrase "American exceptionalism" about 50 times, which honestly translates to nothing else but "America is always right!!" Including comments, the word "exceptionalism" shows up 17 times, not 50. Also, the phrase refers more to America being different, than being 'always right'. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On September 01 2014 03:26 Introvert wrote: You were the same person who a few days ago criticized American's for thinking we are always right and was corrected on that. You should probably stop talking about this sort of stuff because you have no idea what you are talking about. That's not what American Exceptionalism means, and those who are fond of it do not think we always right. That's just a caricature. Unfortunately, it's one many things some of the people in this thread believe it is, even Americans. But that just comes from a lack of exposure. You do realize that this is exactly the attitude I have been criticizing right? "Yeah stop talking, because you aren't an American, which means you can't understand our exceptional country, so please shut up" Are you a also a true Scotsman by any chance? | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On September 01 2014 03:31 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Including comments, the word "exceptionalism" shows up 17 times, not 50. Also, the phrase refers more to America being different, than being 'always right'. And exceptionalism in general refers to somebody or something being better by being different. | ||
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Introvert
United States5029 Posts
On September 01 2014 03:32 aksfjh wrote: It's been said that, in America, facts have a well known liberal bias. If you're part of a party that is notorious for anti-intellectualism and being obstinate to new evidence, any move to correct long periods of stagnation will be seen as a radical move with political intentions. In the same way, a relative radicalization of a single party while the other party remains where it was will make it look as if both sides have become radicalized. Any attempt to pull the radicalized party back to the middle is ultimately seen as an attack on the party. So you criticize the Board for moving from the middle to closer to one end? On September 01 2014 03:32 Nyxisto wrote: You do realize that this is exactly the attitude I have been criticizing right? "Yeah stop talking, because you aren't a American, which means you can't understand our exceptional country, so please shut up" Are you a also a true Scotsman by any chance? I wasn't criticizing you for not being American, I was pointing out that your take on AE was just wrong. Why talk about something when you don't even know what it is? On September 01 2014 03:34 aksfjh wrote: And exceptionalism in general refers to somebody or something being better by being different. Perhaps, but it doesn't imply "America, always right!" either. | ||
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bookwyrm
United States722 Posts
as far as anarchists and not learning in schools - we could use more anarchists in the world, and if you really want to learn something you can't do it in school - you have to do it on your own. So none of that bothers me. Introvert - yes, the point is the rightist project of corporatization is coming back to bite you. Its just a symptom of the fundamental incoherence of the republican ideology. You want it to be run like a business, but it turns out that the corporate fascist culture demands an ideology you don't like because the new corporate fascism no longer has any need for a privileged white elite. Thems the breaks. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On September 01 2014 03:34 aksfjh wrote: And exceptionalism in general refers to somebody or something being better by being different. Germans sure think the Greeks need to be more like Germans, so.. ~German Exceptionalism~  | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On September 01 2014 03:35 Introvert wrote: Perhaps, but it doesn't imply "America, always right!" either. It implies that you hold America to a different standard than other countries, or that America is inherently superior than everybody else. You can obviously play the good old "I'll just redefine the word so you can't possibly criticize it" game, hence the Scotsman reference. On September 01 2014 03:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Germans sure think the Greeks need to be more like Germans, so.. ~German Exceptionalism~ Honestly you're not even wrong about this. The misguided feeling of moral superiority is something Germans certainly don't lack. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On September 01 2014 03:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote: Germans sure think the Greeks need to be more like Germans, so.. ~German Exceptionalism~ where are your datapoints to support this assertion? | ||
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bookwyrm
United States722 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 01 2014 03:42 nunez wrote: where are your datapoints to support this assertion? Read a german newspaper... lol | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On September 01 2014 03:42 nunez wrote: where are your datapoints to support this assertion? Eurocrisis - Germans want everyone to be like them. Frugal, responsible, pay back debts, etc. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
assertion does not compute. shutting down... | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On September 01 2014 04:04 nunez wrote: these are not datapoints, invalid input. assertion does not compute. shutting down... Today, "Bild" moved the propaganda one step forward with an article that had the tittle "Dear Greeks, don't make the mistake now...": "Dear Greeks, You are proud people... a proud country. Tomorrow you have elections, again. You say: We are free. Bild says: Is it in your hand. There is a difference... If you didn't want our billions of euro, you would be free to elect every left-wing or right-wing fool you may wish.... But for the last 2 years the situation is this: Your banks continue to give you euro only because Germany and the other countries of the Eurozone give you money... However Greeks continue to insult us and call us Nazis, which it is not funny at all... If the parties which plan to stop the austerity (in violation of any agreement) win the upcoming elections - WE WILL STOP PAYING! The deal is this: you reform your country and in the meantime we will help you. If you don't want our help anymore, nor do we want to help you. It's up to you.... Tomorrow you have elections. But you have no options. You choose between painful prudence and total destruction. And we are very afraid that you have not realized it yet... Sincerely,BILD" http://europeanpeoplesmovement.org/index.php/news/europe/item/63-german-and-european-newspapers-demand-that-greece-must-continue-with-austerity The University of Erfurt conducted a yearlong study as part of a project for Communications and Mass Media showing how the economic crisis in Greece has perpetuated stereotypes in the press. Research was conducted by six students, under the guidance of Political Science and Media Professor Dr. Kai Hafez, who wanted to monitor the depth of stereotypes in the German media. The Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung (KAS) supported the research to measure how the Greek economic crisis is portrayed across the German press spectrum from tabloids to more serious publications. Deutsche Welle reports that research showed that the German media was prejudiced in its portrayal of Greeks with references to “debt-struck Greeks”, “lazy Greeks”, “tax evaders” reimbursed by the EU and other similar descriptions. Surprisingly, these images weren’t only maintained in the yellow press, such as the German BILD, but were also noted in serious, high-caliber newspapers. Tabloid the BILD was especially found to provide incorrect information, silly accusations and false simplifications aimed at stirring opinion rather than relying on facts. However, the stereotypes seeped across the spectrum of the German press. http://en.protothema.gr/germans-think-greeks-are-lazy-debt-ridden-tax-evaders/ The New York Times – correctly – talks about German denial. The euro crisis is certainly present in the German media – especially in Der Spiegel and in newspapers focused on economics, like the Financial Times Deutschland and Handelsblatt – but while the crisis makes headlines in other countries, the broad majority of German media has being playing it down. There is reporting, a sprinkling of analyses and commentary, but no specials and not much of an attempt to put the crisis in political or historical perspective. The reporting is often tucked quietly away in economics sections. There is very little soul searching about Germany’s role in Europe. The cultural (“Feuilleton”) pages - which have often been at the forefront of past debates - are content with a little bit of capitalism-bashing. The German public sphere handles the crisis as if Germany were an island. In fact Germans often handle the crisis as if they were spectators, not actors. The crisis for a long time was about them - especially 'lazy' Greeks - and not about us. The greater the pressure from outside, the stronger the rejection. German commentators discuss what they see as unfair bashing of Germany, and articles are written about what is seen as unfair treatment by (yes) British tabloids. What unites Germans is the sense that they are right. German success is well deserved, because of German virtues - so why should we pay others people's debts? http://www.ecfr.eu/blog/entry/ach_germany_the_german_media_and_the_euro_crisis There's much more but I'll just pass on searching. | ||
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Introvert
United States5029 Posts
On September 01 2014 03:42 Nyxisto wrote: It implies that you hold America to a different standard than other countries, or that America is inherently superior than everybody else. You can obviously play the good old "I'll just redefine the word so you can't possibly criticize it" game, hence the Scotsman reference. I would hope we all hold our own countries to a better standard so we are more motivated to act and make our countries do the right thing. It's easier to act in your own nation then it is to act in another. I'm not redefining words. Your definition was incorrect. Moreover, your implication that even a feeling of "superiority" implies a sense of infallibility is wrong anyway. Your own logic doesn't even follow. Edit: Also I disagree that exceptionalism necessarily implies superiority. But yes, I would hope we all hold our respective countries to high standards, which is one reason what is going on today annoys me so much. We're going in the wrong direction. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On September 01 2014 04:14 Introvert wrote: I would hope we all hold our own countries to a better standard so we are more motivated to act and make our countries do the right thing. It's easier to act in your own nation then it is to act in another. If that's what would be happening, that would be great! But the idea of 'American exceptionalism' has lead to the opposite thing, it has lead to giving the country a free pass on things that other countries wouldn't get away with. When other countries go to war it is considered imperialism, but America is spreading democracy and freedom! You can now tell me how that isn't what true exceptionalism looks like, but that's irrelevant, because that's what the idea has been used for. If the US would be exceptional in the true sense of the word then social mobility in the US would not be lower than in almost any other developed country. | ||
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