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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-03 03:51:42
July 03 2014 03:50 GMT
#23021
Pity they couldn't just give the thing a try.
More things to fix if ever I'm in charge.

It does seem to present quite a challenge to the sound operation of the system.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
July 03 2014 05:56 GMT
#23022
On July 03 2014 11:01 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2014 00:06 oneofthem wrote:


up to date view on fracking and earthquakes. basically the reinjection adds very minuscule seismic energy by itself, it's more of a lubricant for existing faults, but only small scale triggers are likely. one may say that these induced quakes might even relieve energy from potential big quakes, but there's a lot of complex interaction between how small quakes can induce larger ones so it's not for sure.


The video is obviously pretty boring, and doesn't really come to any firm conclusions on anything, preferring generalities. In other words, a standard student thesis. The most interesting points that he made were that it was impossible to adequately determine risk before drilling.

well it's not new research on particular injection earthquakes, but i don't think anyone can tell you a precise estimate of particular risk right now. takeaway is that risk depends on the site but is generally low.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
July 03 2014 06:05 GMT
#23023
On July 03 2014 14:56 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2014 11:01 IgnE wrote:
On July 03 2014 00:06 oneofthem wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJgEPu5zc7s

up to date view on fracking and earthquakes. basically the reinjection adds very minuscule seismic energy by itself, it's more of a lubricant for existing faults, but only small scale triggers are likely. one may say that these induced quakes might even relieve energy from potential big quakes, but there's a lot of complex interaction between how small quakes can induce larger ones so it's not for sure.


The video is obviously pretty boring, and doesn't really come to any firm conclusions on anything, preferring generalities. In other words, a standard student thesis. The most interesting points that he made were that it was impossible to adequately determine risk before drilling.

well it's not new research on particular injection earthquakes, but i don't think anyone can tell you a precise estimate of particular risk right now. takeaway is that risk depends on the site but is generally low.



Yeah something about gas pipelines and probably inducing earthquakes sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Not sure if they have anything better than 'geofoam' yet but seems like if we didn't at least expect them to prepare for inevitable earthquakes we are intentionally building a huge ecological disaster.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
July 03 2014 16:10 GMT
#23024
On July 03 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2014 14:56 oneofthem wrote:
On July 03 2014 11:01 IgnE wrote:
On July 03 2014 00:06 oneofthem wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJgEPu5zc7s

up to date view on fracking and earthquakes. basically the reinjection adds very minuscule seismic energy by itself, it's more of a lubricant for existing faults, but only small scale triggers are likely. one may say that these induced quakes might even relieve energy from potential big quakes, but there's a lot of complex interaction between how small quakes can induce larger ones so it's not for sure.


The video is obviously pretty boring, and doesn't really come to any firm conclusions on anything, preferring generalities. In other words, a standard student thesis. The most interesting points that he made were that it was impossible to adequately determine risk before drilling.

well it's not new research on particular injection earthquakes, but i don't think anyone can tell you a precise estimate of particular risk right now. takeaway is that risk depends on the site but is generally low.



Yeah something about gas pipelines and probably inducing earthquakes sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Not sure if they have anything better than 'geofoam' yet but seems like if we didn't at least expect them to prepare for inevitable earthquakes we are intentionally building a huge ecological disaster.

Engineering wise, these gas pipes and drills are meant to withstand a minimum amount of stress related to pressure and earthquakes. Yes, a 6.0-7.0 might cause some issues and ruptures, but it's well regulated and there are safeties in place to minimize the actual risks they pose.

The real problem is the damage these quakes cause to relatively earthquake free zones. Along major fault lines, there are plenty of regulations that ensure that all (legal) buildings can withstand earthquakes of significant magnitude. However, these minor fault line areas don't normally experience the quakes and don't have those regulations in place. Buildings are at a higher risk in these areas, and it's still conjecture that these smaller quakes are "relieving" the potential for larger quakes. For example, the supposed lubrication that is occurring could merely be allowing a bi-directional cyclical motion along the crust, instead of smoothing a mono-directional motion. This would mean the earthquakes have almost no positive long term outcomes, and would be consistent with the findings.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 03 2014 16:15 GMT
#23025
Pretty much any modern construction (ie anything using wood and/or steel for its frame) is going to be fairly earthquake safe.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
July 03 2014 16:39 GMT
#23026
On July 04 2014 01:15 xDaunt wrote:
Pretty much any modern construction (ie anything using wood and/or steel for its frame) is going to be fairly earthquake safe.

Too bad we have a ton of old buildings and other construction that was built using shoddier practices. Also, there's no guarantee that those buildings in those areas are built to withstand it. They can always place studs and load-bearing structures in a way that is susceptible to vibrations and earthquakes, or rely too heavily on bricks/concrete. It's a fallacy to claim that building technology has come so far that it automatically protects from some basic disasters. As tech gets better, corners can be cut to cut costs for the same performance.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-03 17:05:23
July 03 2014 17:02 GMT
#23027
most buildings in (recent) historically seismically inactive regions are not reinforced. the traditional brick and mortar buildings are death traps.

but really i'd be more worried about above ground contamination of water and air than induced earthquakes.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
July 03 2014 17:05 GMT
#23028
On July 04 2014 01:39 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2014 01:15 xDaunt wrote:
Pretty much any modern construction (ie anything using wood and/or steel for its frame) is going to be fairly earthquake safe.

Too bad we have a ton of old buildings and other construction that was built using shoddier practices. Also, there's no guarantee that those buildings in those areas are built to withstand it. They can always place studs and load-bearing structures in a way that is susceptible to vibrations and earthquakes, or rely too heavily on bricks/concrete. It's a fallacy to claim that building technology has come so far that it automatically protects from some basic disasters. As tech gets better, corners can be cut to cut costs for the same performance.

The structures and related code in places like California are designed to withstand MAJOR earthquakes -- far larger than any earthquake that may be fracking-induced. Yes, having that level of engineering is ideal, but it isn't necessary in fracking zones. My point is that modern structures using wood and steel should be sufficient to withstand the kind of minor earthquake that will be experienced in these areas.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
July 03 2014 17:28 GMT
#23029
On July 04 2014 02:05 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2014 01:39 aksfjh wrote:
On July 04 2014 01:15 xDaunt wrote:
Pretty much any modern construction (ie anything using wood and/or steel for its frame) is going to be fairly earthquake safe.

Too bad we have a ton of old buildings and other construction that was built using shoddier practices. Also, there's no guarantee that those buildings in those areas are built to withstand it. They can always place studs and load-bearing structures in a way that is susceptible to vibrations and earthquakes, or rely too heavily on bricks/concrete. It's a fallacy to claim that building technology has come so far that it automatically protects from some basic disasters. As tech gets better, corners can be cut to cut costs for the same performance.

The structures and related code in places like California are designed to withstand MAJOR earthquakes -- far larger than any earthquake that may be fracking-induced. Yes, having that level of engineering is ideal, but it isn't necessary in fracking zones. My point is that modern structures using wood and steel should be sufficient to withstand the kind of minor earthquake that will be experienced in these areas.



OK so California like usual is not a good comparison to a place like Oklahoma or the Dakotas. Whole towns don't have a more than a few buildings that aren't brick/concrete or shoddily built stick frames. Not to mention I'm sure conservatives in those areas would LOVE the idea of increased regulation on all new construction, and potentially requiring buildings that are earthquake death traps to either shut down or remodel...

Most of the towns around these fracking sites look pretty much like this

[image loading]

As for 'way bigger than any fracking induced earthquake' that's just wild speculation. You have no idea if fracking could potentially set off much larger quakes (no one does...yet).

So the stability of 'new construction' is completely avoiding the issue. The places without fracking are more than prepared for the small earthquakes fracking likely promotes and the places where they are fracking are barely able to stand the relatively minor quakes we've seen so far. But hey, new construction in LA is well prepared for Oklahoma earthquakes so lets charge on!...
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
July 03 2014 18:30 GMT
#23030
On July 04 2014 02:05 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2014 01:39 aksfjh wrote:
On July 04 2014 01:15 xDaunt wrote:
Pretty much any modern construction (ie anything using wood and/or steel for its frame) is going to be fairly earthquake safe.

Too bad we have a ton of old buildings and other construction that was built using shoddier practices. Also, there's no guarantee that those buildings in those areas are built to withstand it. They can always place studs and load-bearing structures in a way that is susceptible to vibrations and earthquakes, or rely too heavily on bricks/concrete. It's a fallacy to claim that building technology has come so far that it automatically protects from some basic disasters. As tech gets better, corners can be cut to cut costs for the same performance.

The structures and related code in places like California are designed to withstand MAJOR earthquakes -- far larger than any earthquake that may be fracking-induced. Yes, having that level of engineering is ideal, but it isn't necessary in fracking zones. My point is that modern structures using wood and steel should be sufficient to withstand the kind of minor earthquake that will be experienced in these areas.

California has very, very stringent regulations on structures and equipment that pertain to earthquakes specifically because that is one of the dangers of the area. Places like Oklahoma and Texas have more problems with flooding and sediment shifting. Thus, the codes for that area usually pertain specifically to flooding, but have no reference to withstanding an earthquake or similar forces, and many buildings in the area never accounted for earthquakes in the slightest during construction, but rather to keep out water and stand up against hail and high winds.

It's all about engineering, taking into account the possible dangers of an area and devising a cost effective solution to the likely threats to a building. If a builder can put load-bearing beams 12 inches further apart and use more rigid material (brick or concrete) to bring the price down to or to add features to the property for the same price, that's what will happen.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 03 2014 18:57 GMT
#23031
On July 03 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2014 14:56 oneofthem wrote:
On July 03 2014 11:01 IgnE wrote:
On July 03 2014 00:06 oneofthem wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJgEPu5zc7s

up to date view on fracking and earthquakes. basically the reinjection adds very minuscule seismic energy by itself, it's more of a lubricant for existing faults, but only small scale triggers are likely. one may say that these induced quakes might even relieve energy from potential big quakes, but there's a lot of complex interaction between how small quakes can induce larger ones so it's not for sure.


The video is obviously pretty boring, and doesn't really come to any firm conclusions on anything, preferring generalities. In other words, a standard student thesis. The most interesting points that he made were that it was impossible to adequately determine risk before drilling.

well it's not new research on particular injection earthquakes, but i don't think anyone can tell you a precise estimate of particular risk right now. takeaway is that risk depends on the site but is generally low.

Yeah something about gas pipelines and probably inducing earthquakes sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Not sure if they have anything better than 'geofoam' yet but seems like if we didn't at least expect them to prepare for inevitable earthquakes we are intentionally building a huge ecological disaster.

A lot of things can contribute to earthquakes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_seismicity

They need to be studied and accounted for, but they've never been something to live in fear of.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 03 2014 19:02 GMT
#23032
Mississippi state Sen. Chris McDaniel (R) seems to formally be gearing up for his legal challenge over the runoff results of the race for U.S. Senate in the state.

According to TIME, McDaniel has sent a "Notice of Intent to Challenge" to the campaign of Sen. Thad Cochran (R-MS), which defeated McDaniel in the runoff election for U.S. Senate in June. The notice of intent is one of the first official steps the McDaniel campaign is taking in its push to fight the results of the runoff.

The McDaniel campaign plans to file an official challenge with the Mississippi Republican Party early next week, McDaniel spokesman Noel Fritsch said to TIME. Fritsch said a legal challenge in court will follow too.

It's unclear if the Cochran campaign has received the notice of intent. Cochran spokesman Jordan Russell said he could not confirm that Cochran's campaign had received the notice. Russell also said the challenge is "baseless."

"Frankly, it's a publicity stunt, an attempt to help him to retire his campaign debt," Russell said of McDaniel.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
July 03 2014 20:43 GMT
#23033
“Some may think by allowing them to stay here that it’s a more humane option. I assure you it’s not,” he told the committee. “Nobody’s doing any of these children the slightest favor by delaying a rapid return to their countries of origin.” -Rick Perry


So isn't it time to tear down the statue of liberty or at least add a T&C on the plaque.

Rick Perry looks some child who came from a family who may have lived here in the city dump in Nicaragua.

[image loading]

And then basically says 'I know you may think houses, clean water, and freedom sound like it would be nice but sorry kid all that money, time, and effort were wasted, it's really not better for you here than your home country... We can't possibly come up with a way for the wealthiest nation in the world to support some innocent children running from some of the shittiest governments in the western hemisphere. I mean...How else could we spend 2-3 trillion dollars securing an ISIS foothold in the middle East...? It's way more important to build a multi-million dollar facility in Iraq than it is to feed and shelter foreign children risking their lives just for a chance at an opportunity to live in America.

Just a couple tidbits from the countries these children are fleeing.
Non-communicable diseases have resulted in high morbidity and mortality. The leading causes of mortality are cardiovascular disease, diabetes, external causes, and cancer. Traffic accidents, suicide, drowning, injuries from external causes, and leukemia are the leading causes of death in young people (10-19 years of age). Mental illness, neurosis, alcoholism, general violence, and domestic violence have increased, primarily in urban areas.

Government spending on health was cut from $58 per head per year in 1988 to $17 per head per year in 1991. The average annual number of consultations per person fell from 1.7 in 1985-90 to 1.2 in 1990-92. As a result, by 1998, 2,959 workers had left the health services—1,456 of which were medical staff.

Nicaraguan doctors and nurses receive wages barely over that of doctors and nurses in Malawi—an extremely poor African country whose per capita income is 80 percent below Nicaragua's.

Adolescents account for approximately one-third of maternal deaths.


Source
Obama should of never signed he legislation to let children stay in situations like this....Oh wait he didn't...

It was Bush who signed the law that Obama is requesting congress change to make it easier to deport immigrant children...

This is insanity. The tea party has gone so far right they have dragged Obama to the right of GWB and they still think he is a damn communist, socialist, terrorist, Muslim, foreign born/illegal immigrant, who is trying to destroy the US...

At some point this has to even sound crazy to them...



"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
July 03 2014 20:56 GMT
#23034
On July 04 2014 03:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 03 2014 14:56 oneofthem wrote:
On July 03 2014 11:01 IgnE wrote:
On July 03 2014 00:06 oneofthem wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJgEPu5zc7s

up to date view on fracking and earthquakes. basically the reinjection adds very minuscule seismic energy by itself, it's more of a lubricant for existing faults, but only small scale triggers are likely. one may say that these induced quakes might even relieve energy from potential big quakes, but there's a lot of complex interaction between how small quakes can induce larger ones so it's not for sure.


The video is obviously pretty boring, and doesn't really come to any firm conclusions on anything, preferring generalities. In other words, a standard student thesis. The most interesting points that he made were that it was impossible to adequately determine risk before drilling.

well it's not new research on particular injection earthquakes, but i don't think anyone can tell you a precise estimate of particular risk right now. takeaway is that risk depends on the site but is generally low.

Yeah something about gas pipelines and probably inducing earthquakes sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Not sure if they have anything better than 'geofoam' yet but seems like if we didn't at least expect them to prepare for inevitable earthquakes we are intentionally building a huge ecological disaster.

A lot of things can contribute to earthquakes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_seismicity

They need to be studied and accounted for, but they've never been something to live in fear of.



Uhh isn't that just what I said? Looks like the article you are citing shows evidence of humans being responsible for quakes above a 6.0 magnitude and 1000's of deaths and billions in damage. Seems like concern about energy companies/building owners taking appropriate precautions without being forced by law is also a reasonable concern.

I don't think people are fearing the quakes themselves(at least I'm not), it's the stupid humans that have to deal with/prepare for it, that makes me so concerned.

Like I said, despite (or because) the science shows there are risks, I'm sure the 'Right'/ Gas Energy states will strongly support adding new rules and regulations to the gas industry to protect citizens from reasonable concerns... /sarcasm
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-03 22:16:22
July 03 2014 22:15 GMT
#23035
President Obama's new climate change push was reaffirmed on Thursday when the Department of Energy announced that it will make $4 billion in loans available to clean energy projects.

In a statement, Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz said:

“As the President emphasized in his Climate Action Plan, it is critical that we take an all-of-the above approach to energy in order to cut carbon pollution, help address the effects of climate change and protect our children’s future. Investments in clean, low-carbon energy also provide an economic opportunity. Through previous loan guarantees and other investments, the Department is already helping launch or jumpstart entire industries in the U.S., from utility-scale wind and solar to nuclear and lower-carbon fossil energy. Today’s announcement will help build on and accelerate that success.”

The Department highlighted several key technologies it anticipates will receive loans, including hydroelectric dams and drop-in biofuels.

Last month, Obama announced new rules for power plants meant to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. ThinkProgress also notes several other DOE announcements to fund green energy projects. The efforts are a step in the right direction, but some climate scientists say it might be too late.

Michael Oppenheimer, a scientist at Princeton University, told Scientific American that "marginal cuts by the U.S. don't have a long-term overall big effect on the climate. What has to happen to have a big effect on the global climate is for all the big emitters to get together and decide that they are all going to cut some substantial fraction."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 03 2014 23:26 GMT
#23036
On July 04 2014 05:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2014 03:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 03 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 03 2014 14:56 oneofthem wrote:
On July 03 2014 11:01 IgnE wrote:
On July 03 2014 00:06 oneofthem wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJgEPu5zc7s

up to date view on fracking and earthquakes. basically the reinjection adds very minuscule seismic energy by itself, it's more of a lubricant for existing faults, but only small scale triggers are likely. one may say that these induced quakes might even relieve energy from potential big quakes, but there's a lot of complex interaction between how small quakes can induce larger ones so it's not for sure.


The video is obviously pretty boring, and doesn't really come to any firm conclusions on anything, preferring generalities. In other words, a standard student thesis. The most interesting points that he made were that it was impossible to adequately determine risk before drilling.

well it's not new research on particular injection earthquakes, but i don't think anyone can tell you a precise estimate of particular risk right now. takeaway is that risk depends on the site but is generally low.

Yeah something about gas pipelines and probably inducing earthquakes sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Not sure if they have anything better than 'geofoam' yet but seems like if we didn't at least expect them to prepare for inevitable earthquakes we are intentionally building a huge ecological disaster.

A lot of things can contribute to earthquakes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_seismicity

They need to be studied and accounted for, but they've never been something to live in fear of.

Uhh isn't that just what I said? Looks like the article you are citing shows evidence of humans being responsible for quakes above a 6.0 magnitude and 1000's of deaths and billions in damage. Seems like concern about energy companies/building owners taking appropriate precautions without being forced by law is also a reasonable concern.

I don't think people are fearing the quakes themselves(at least I'm not), it's the stupid humans that have to deal with/prepare for it, that makes me so concerned.

Like I said, despite (or because) the science shows there are risks, I'm sure the 'Right'/ Gas Energy states will strongly support adding new rules and regulations to the gas industry to protect citizens from reasonable concerns... /sarcasm

No, you're playing off of the anti-science fear mongering. There's nothing about fracking that you need to shit your pants over. It's reasonably safe, and as new problems and opportunities emerge they will be dealt with as they always have been.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24354 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-03 23:43:25
July 03 2014 23:42 GMT
#23037
On July 04 2014 08:26 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2014 05:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 04 2014 03:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 03 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 03 2014 14:56 oneofthem wrote:
On July 03 2014 11:01 IgnE wrote:
On July 03 2014 00:06 oneofthem wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJgEPu5zc7s

up to date view on fracking and earthquakes. basically the reinjection adds very minuscule seismic energy by itself, it's more of a lubricant for existing faults, but only small scale triggers are likely. one may say that these induced quakes might even relieve energy from potential big quakes, but there's a lot of complex interaction between how small quakes can induce larger ones so it's not for sure.


The video is obviously pretty boring, and doesn't really come to any firm conclusions on anything, preferring generalities. In other words, a standard student thesis. The most interesting points that he made were that it was impossible to adequately determine risk before drilling.

well it's not new research on particular injection earthquakes, but i don't think anyone can tell you a precise estimate of particular risk right now. takeaway is that risk depends on the site but is generally low.

Yeah something about gas pipelines and probably inducing earthquakes sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Not sure if they have anything better than 'geofoam' yet but seems like if we didn't at least expect them to prepare for inevitable earthquakes we are intentionally building a huge ecological disaster.

A lot of things can contribute to earthquakes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_seismicity

They need to be studied and accounted for, but they've never been something to live in fear of.

Uhh isn't that just what I said? Looks like the article you are citing shows evidence of humans being responsible for quakes above a 6.0 magnitude and 1000's of deaths and billions in damage. Seems like concern about energy companies/building owners taking appropriate precautions without being forced by law is also a reasonable concern.

I don't think people are fearing the quakes themselves(at least I'm not), it's the stupid humans that have to deal with/prepare for it, that makes me so concerned.

Like I said, despite (or because) the science shows there are risks, I'm sure the 'Right'/ Gas Energy states will strongly support adding new rules and regulations to the gas industry to protect citizens from reasonable concerns... /sarcasm

No, you're playing off of the anti-science fear mongering. There's nothing about fracking that you need to shit your pants over. It's reasonably safe, and as new problems and opportunities emerge they will be dealt with as they always have been.


No ones shitting their pants, unless you have something to tell us? Your suggestion that " as new problems and opportunities emerge they will be dealt with as they always have been." really says it all...

I feel like it's pretty obvious why that statement is so problematic for alleviating the types of concerns I was talking about? Think about how well the risks of deep offshore drilling and the BP spill were 'dealt with'

If not I can explain it. I just got some other stuff I'd like to get done and that seems waaaay too obvious to spend time breaking it down just for you.

Otherwise we have already come to the conclusion that we have different ideas of what 'dealt with' or 'punished' does or should mean when it comes to corporate criminals, and I have no interest in discussing that with you.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-04 00:06:05
July 04 2014 00:04 GMT
#23038
I find that the really concerning thing is not just the likelihood of earthquakes or polluted drinking water, wherein fracking is subjected to a cost/benefit analysis in dollars. It is the root attitude that views everything in a vulgar utilitarian light, subjecting our environment to desecration, raising the quantitative over the qualitative, and ignoring the precious, sacred, and immediate for a distant end. A mentality that only views the earth in an instrumental way separates and forecloses us from meaningful aspects of subjective human experience. It reveals our great hubris; that we know best and that we can predict and control all of the consequences of our actions.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 04 2014 00:12 GMT
#23039
On July 04 2014 08:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2014 08:26 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 04 2014 05:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 04 2014 03:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 03 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 03 2014 14:56 oneofthem wrote:
On July 03 2014 11:01 IgnE wrote:
On July 03 2014 00:06 oneofthem wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJgEPu5zc7s

up to date view on fracking and earthquakes. basically the reinjection adds very minuscule seismic energy by itself, it's more of a lubricant for existing faults, but only small scale triggers are likely. one may say that these induced quakes might even relieve energy from potential big quakes, but there's a lot of complex interaction between how small quakes can induce larger ones so it's not for sure.


The video is obviously pretty boring, and doesn't really come to any firm conclusions on anything, preferring generalities. In other words, a standard student thesis. The most interesting points that he made were that it was impossible to adequately determine risk before drilling.

well it's not new research on particular injection earthquakes, but i don't think anyone can tell you a precise estimate of particular risk right now. takeaway is that risk depends on the site but is generally low.

Yeah something about gas pipelines and probably inducing earthquakes sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Not sure if they have anything better than 'geofoam' yet but seems like if we didn't at least expect them to prepare for inevitable earthquakes we are intentionally building a huge ecological disaster.

A lot of things can contribute to earthquakes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_seismicity

They need to be studied and accounted for, but they've never been something to live in fear of.

Uhh isn't that just what I said? Looks like the article you are citing shows evidence of humans being responsible for quakes above a 6.0 magnitude and 1000's of deaths and billions in damage. Seems like concern about energy companies/building owners taking appropriate precautions without being forced by law is also a reasonable concern.

I don't think people are fearing the quakes themselves(at least I'm not), it's the stupid humans that have to deal with/prepare for it, that makes me so concerned.

Like I said, despite (or because) the science shows there are risks, I'm sure the 'Right'/ Gas Energy states will strongly support adding new rules and regulations to the gas industry to protect citizens from reasonable concerns... /sarcasm

No, you're playing off of the anti-science fear mongering. There's nothing about fracking that you need to shit your pants over. It's reasonably safe, and as new problems and opportunities emerge they will be dealt with as they always have been.


No ones shitting their pants, unless you have something to tell us? Your suggestion that " as new problems and opportunities emerge they will be dealt with as they always have been." really says it all...

I feel like it's pretty obvious why that statement is so problematic for alleviating the types of concerns I was talking about? Think about how well the risks of deep offshore drilling and the BP spill were 'dealt with'

If not I can explain it. I just got some other stuff I'd like to get done and that seems waaaay too obvious to spend time breaking it down just for you.

Otherwise we have already come to the conclusion that we have different ideas of what 'dealt with' or 'punished' does or should mean when it comes to corporate criminals, and I have no interest in discussing that with you.

"OMG BP SPILL!! **shits pants**"

The environment is getting cleaner, not dirtier, and you're shitting your pants as if there's doom on the horizon thanks to corporate ne'er-do-wells and evil Republicans.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
July 04 2014 00:20 GMT
#23040
On July 04 2014 09:12 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2014 08:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 04 2014 08:26 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 04 2014 05:56 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 04 2014 03:57 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 03 2014 15:05 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 03 2014 14:56 oneofthem wrote:
On July 03 2014 11:01 IgnE wrote:
On July 03 2014 00:06 oneofthem wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJgEPu5zc7s

up to date view on fracking and earthquakes. basically the reinjection adds very minuscule seismic energy by itself, it's more of a lubricant for existing faults, but only small scale triggers are likely. one may say that these induced quakes might even relieve energy from potential big quakes, but there's a lot of complex interaction between how small quakes can induce larger ones so it's not for sure.


The video is obviously pretty boring, and doesn't really come to any firm conclusions on anything, preferring generalities. In other words, a standard student thesis. The most interesting points that he made were that it was impossible to adequately determine risk before drilling.

well it's not new research on particular injection earthquakes, but i don't think anyone can tell you a precise estimate of particular risk right now. takeaway is that risk depends on the site but is generally low.

Yeah something about gas pipelines and probably inducing earthquakes sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Not sure if they have anything better than 'geofoam' yet but seems like if we didn't at least expect them to prepare for inevitable earthquakes we are intentionally building a huge ecological disaster.

A lot of things can contribute to earthquakes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_seismicity

They need to be studied and accounted for, but they've never been something to live in fear of.

Uhh isn't that just what I said? Looks like the article you are citing shows evidence of humans being responsible for quakes above a 6.0 magnitude and 1000's of deaths and billions in damage. Seems like concern about energy companies/building owners taking appropriate precautions without being forced by law is also a reasonable concern.

I don't think people are fearing the quakes themselves(at least I'm not), it's the stupid humans that have to deal with/prepare for it, that makes me so concerned.

Like I said, despite (or because) the science shows there are risks, I'm sure the 'Right'/ Gas Energy states will strongly support adding new rules and regulations to the gas industry to protect citizens from reasonable concerns... /sarcasm

No, you're playing off of the anti-science fear mongering. There's nothing about fracking that you need to shit your pants over. It's reasonably safe, and as new problems and opportunities emerge they will be dealt with as they always have been.


No ones shitting their pants, unless you have something to tell us? Your suggestion that " as new problems and opportunities emerge they will be dealt with as they always have been." really says it all...

I feel like it's pretty obvious why that statement is so problematic for alleviating the types of concerns I was talking about? Think about how well the risks of deep offshore drilling and the BP spill were 'dealt with'

If not I can explain it. I just got some other stuff I'd like to get done and that seems waaaay too obvious to spend time breaking it down just for you.

Otherwise we have already come to the conclusion that we have different ideas of what 'dealt with' or 'punished' does or should mean when it comes to corporate criminals, and I have no interest in discussing that with you.

"OMG BP SPILL!! **shits pants**"

The environment is getting cleaner, not dirtier, and you're shitting your pants as if there's doom on the horizon thanks to corporate ne'er-do-wells and evil Republicans.


That's not true.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
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