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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 26 2014 03:19 GMT
#22701
On June 26 2014 12:10 Jormundr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2014 12:05 xDaunt wrote:
On June 26 2014 11:15 Mercy13 wrote:
On June 26 2014 10:59 xDaunt wrote:
On June 26 2014 10:19 Nyxisto wrote:
On June 26 2014 10:10 Introvert wrote:
His power over conducting foreign policy is much different than his powers regarding the creation and execution of laws. So making such complaints is a sign that one doesn't understand how the system works, and that one is conflating the two distinct areas.


I'd say a system which makes it easy for the president to wage war and hard to solve the actual problems of his own country is a pretty fucked up system and rather belongs into the 19th century than in the 21st.

The rest of the world is pretty thankful that Obama is not using his broad and grand powers the way the amazingly intelligent Bush junior did.

It's only fucked up if you don't actually think about the implications of the alternative. We're right back to my point from a few weeks ago regarding the reckless tendency of the left to sacrifice form for results.


You can't blame people for being frustrated when it's impossible to pass legislation even though has support from 60%+ of the public, as well as bipartisan support in both chambers. This country faces a lot of serious problems, and it simply needs to be governed.

Doesn't matter. Shitting all over the institution isn't going to fix it.

The tears, the delicious tears. May I remind you that at the end of the day you make camp with a large group of professional institution-shitters?

There is a big difference between causing obstruction within the confines of the law and outright breaking the law.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 26 2014 03:28 GMT
#22702


Also:

Some conservatives aren't happy that their preferred candidate, state Sen. Chris McDaniel (R) lost to Sen. Thad Cochran (R-MS) in the runoff of the GOP primary for U.S. Senate in Mississippi. Many tea party types are openly speculating foul play and that Democrats and black voters were involved. Take Rush Limbaugh who wondered if Cochran's campaign slogan in Mississippi over the last few days was "Uncle Toms for Thad."

"I wonder what the campaign slogan was in Mississippi the past few days, 'Uncle Toms for Thad'? Because I thought it was the worst thing you could do as an African American, vote for a Republican. The worst thing you could do," Limbaugh said on Wednesday. "But somehow they were made to believe that voting for old Thad would be fine and dandy. And why? Because they were told Thad's done a lot for black people in Mississippi. Must be the first time they were told that."

Cochran's turnaround victory in the race on Tuesday was immediately met with criticism by McDaniel and tea partiers over his strategy of reaching out to not only Republicans but also Democrats and African-Americans, a move that dismayed tea partiers but isn't illegal under Mississippi's open primary laws.

When Cochran was named the winner, McDaniel himself openly questioned the results, and said "there is something a bit strange, there is something a bit unusual about a Republican primary that's decided by liberal Democrats."

"Before this race ends we have to be absolutely certain that the Republican primary was won by Republican voters," McDaniel also said.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Mercy13
Profile Joined January 2011
United States718 Posts
June 26 2014 03:33 GMT
#22703
On June 26 2014 12:05 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2014 11:15 Mercy13 wrote:
On June 26 2014 10:59 xDaunt wrote:
On June 26 2014 10:19 Nyxisto wrote:
On June 26 2014 10:10 Introvert wrote:
His power over conducting foreign policy is much different than his powers regarding the creation and execution of laws. So making such complaints is a sign that one doesn't understand how the system works, and that one is conflating the two distinct areas.


I'd say a system which makes it easy for the president to wage war and hard to solve the actual problems of his own country is a pretty fucked up system and rather belongs into the 19th century than in the 21st.

The rest of the world is pretty thankful that Obama is not using his broad and grand powers the way the amazingly intelligent Bush junior did.

It's only fucked up if you don't actually think about the implications of the alternative. We're right back to my point from a few weeks ago regarding the reckless tendency of the left to sacrifice form for results.


You can't blame people for being frustrated when it's impossible to pass legislation even though has support from 60%+ of the public, as well as bipartisan support in both chambers. This country faces a lot of serious problems, and it simply needs to be governed.

Doesn't matter. Shitting all over the institution isn't going to fix it.

It might, if it shames Congress into doing its job. You're probably right though. What would fix it is doing away with the filibuster, the Hastert rule, and gerrymandering while we're at it, none of which are mandated by the Constitution.

Unfortunately none of that is going to happen, so if we want the government to function we have to put up with expanded executive prerogatives.
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-26 03:44:50
June 26 2014 03:34 GMT
#22704
Edit:Double post
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-26 03:48:13
June 26 2014 03:44 GMT
#22705
On June 26 2014 12:19 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2014 12:10 Jormundr wrote:
On June 26 2014 12:05 xDaunt wrote:
On June 26 2014 11:15 Mercy13 wrote:
On June 26 2014 10:59 xDaunt wrote:
On June 26 2014 10:19 Nyxisto wrote:
On June 26 2014 10:10 Introvert wrote:
His power over conducting foreign policy is much different than his powers regarding the creation and execution of laws. So making such complaints is a sign that one doesn't understand how the system works, and that one is conflating the two distinct areas.


I'd say a system which makes it easy for the president to wage war and hard to solve the actual problems of his own country is a pretty fucked up system and rather belongs into the 19th century than in the 21st.

The rest of the world is pretty thankful that Obama is not using his broad and grand powers the way the amazingly intelligent Bush junior did.

It's only fucked up if you don't actually think about the implications of the alternative. We're right back to my point from a few weeks ago regarding the reckless tendency of the left to sacrifice form for results.


You can't blame people for being frustrated when it's impossible to pass legislation even though has support from 60%+ of the public, as well as bipartisan support in both chambers. This country faces a lot of serious problems, and it simply needs to be governed.

Doesn't matter. Shitting all over the institution isn't going to fix it.

The tears, the delicious tears. May I remind you that at the end of the day you make camp with a large group of professional institution-shitters?

There is a big difference between causing obstruction within the confines of the law and outright breaking the law.

Yeah. Good thing nobody's broken the law? So you can QQ all you want, but it's taken 6 years before someone even publicly committed to (maybe) suing the president for executive overreach in a potential show trial. It's also important to note that said someone just saw one of his compatriots fall to friendly fire that they brought upon themselves. Considering the strong language handed down to you by these people, such as "illegal", you would think they would have already done so. I guess that the people who held symbolic votes against obamacare 40+ times (not actually sure of the number) just don't give a shit about stopping ILLEGAL activities, even though (if true) it would basically mean a guaranteed congress seat for the next decade and a pretty good chance of making it past a presidential primary. I mean seriously, you vote for and pay all these so-called anti-establishment guys to be up there and they can't even call out ILLEGAL stuff? Because their history of not doing that suggests that either they're a bunch of incapable morons or the people who believe their DATS ILLEGAL spiel are morons.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
June 26 2014 04:09 GMT
#22706
if it's illegal get it enforced.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
June 26 2014 07:03 GMT
#22707
On June 26 2014 10:57 Nyxisto wrote:
If you don't want people to equalize foreign policy with war then maybe the US should do a little bit less of the latter, because 90% of Americas foreign policy in the last three decades was war.


While I understand the comment you are responding too had an ad hominem (and a silly one at that), this is an absurd oversimplification/error in fact. Yes, the U.S. engaged in several military actions in the last 3 decades, including some very stupid ones. We also prevented a genocide in Kosovo and retook Kuwait from Iraq (in both cases with international allies, though we did the overwhelming majority of the heavy lifting).

And yes, drone strikes are stupid and obviously illegal and it is quite beyond me why the conversation about them is framed in terms of constitutional protections rather than "Holy shit, if China killed a guy in Canadian territory against the will of the government, we'd be mobilizing nukes; is this really a precedent we want to set?"

But U.S. foreign policy is a great deal more than "war," or even "military" (as the stabilizing presence of U.S. troops around the world is of enormous benefit to the international community, particularly in East Asia). But the U.S. conducts all sorts of "soft" diplomacy; hell, the most dominant things of the U.S. are culture and (to a lesser extent) economy. U.S. pressure is almost always (exceptions for *some* oil rich states) to the benefit of human rights and democracy.

I mean, the U.S. has its things, but its foreign policy is nowhere near "90%" dominated by war.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
June 26 2014 10:03 GMT
#22708
On June 26 2014 16:03 Yoav wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 26 2014 10:57 Nyxisto wrote:
If you don't want people to equalize foreign policy with war then maybe the US should do a little bit less of the latter, because 90% of Americas foreign policy in the last three decades was war.


While I understand the comment you are responding too had an ad hominem (and a silly one at that), this is an absurd oversimplification/error in fact. Yes, the U.S. engaged in several military actions in the last 3 decades, including some very stupid ones. We also prevented a genocide in Kosovo and retook Kuwait from Iraq (in both cases with international allies, though we did the overwhelming majority of the heavy lifting).

And yes, drone strikes are stupid and obviously illegal and it is quite beyond me why the conversation about them is framed in terms of constitutional protections rather than "Holy shit, if China killed a guy in Canadian territory against the will of the government, we'd be mobilizing nukes; is this really a precedent we want to set?"

But U.S. foreign policy is a great deal more than "war," or even "military" (as the stabilizing presence of U.S. troops around the world is of enormous benefit to the international community, particularly in East Asia). But the U.S. conducts all sorts of "soft" diplomacy; hell, the most dominant things of the U.S. are culture and (to a lesser extent) economy. U.S. pressure is almost always (exceptions for *some* oil rich states) to the benefit of human rights and democracy.

I mean, the U.S. has its things, but its foreign policy is nowhere near "90%" dominated by war.


What a laugh, Yoav. The United States "almost always" pursuing foreign policy to the "benefit of human rights and democracy?" It has never done that and likely never will. There are dozens and dozens of instances of it propping up a dictatorial figure in opposition to democratic forces: Cuba, Nicaragua many times, Honduras many times, Panama, Colombia, Mexico, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, African country de jour, nationalist China, Cambodia, Thailand, Indonesia, etc. etc. etc. In America, democracy means whatever provides security for America's economic interests, nothing more.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-26 14:21:34
June 26 2014 13:46 GMT
#22709
well yea, but just as an individual has private urges/core self interests, as well as abstract morality, national level politics is not a unified will either. i wouldn't even call it mostly for show, because taht would imply conscious designed manipulative appearance.

that's not what the u.s. does most of the time. there are actually decent and caring people. active public image manipulation is what china and russia do. the U.S. and europe are still the source of give a damn-ness when it comes to humanity and related abstractions.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
June 26 2014 15:00 GMT
#22710
On June 26 2014 12:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Some conservatives aren't happy that their preferred candidate, state Sen. Chris McDaniel (R) lost to Sen. Thad Cochran (R-MS) in the runoff of the GOP primary for U.S. Senate in Mississippi. Many tea party types are openly speculating foul play and that Democrats and black voters were involved. Take Rush Limbaugh who wondered if Cochran's campaign slogan in Mississippi over the last few days was "Uncle Toms for Thad."

"I wonder what the campaign slogan was in Mississippi the past few days, 'Uncle Toms for Thad'? Because I thought it was the worst thing you could do as an African American, vote for a Republican. The worst thing you could do," Limbaugh said on Wednesday. "But somehow they were made to believe that voting for old Thad would be fine and dandy. And why? Because they were told Thad's done a lot for black people in Mississippi. Must be the first time they were told that."

Cochran's turnaround victory in the race on Tuesday was immediately met with criticism by McDaniel and tea partiers over his strategy of reaching out to not only Republicans but also Democrats and African-Americans, a move that dismayed tea partiers but isn't illegal under Mississippi's open primary laws.

When Cochran was named the winner, McDaniel himself openly questioned the results, and said "there is something a bit strange, there is something a bit unusual about a Republican primary that's decided by liberal Democrats."

"Before this race ends we have to be absolutely certain that the Republican primary was won by Republican voters," McDaniel also said.


Source

Remember when people claimed the Tea Party wasn't racist?
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 26 2014 15:25 GMT
#22711
On June 26 2014 13:09 oneofthem wrote:
if it's illegal get it enforced.

Not sure what you're specifically referring to, but I was talking more generally about liberals arguing that things should be done in violation of the law rather than working within the confines of the law. And there has been plenty of litigation over perceived transgressions. As just one example, the US Supreme Court just unanimously struck down Obama's recess appointments.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
June 26 2014 15:42 GMT
#22712
well when you have power you'd like to use it. proper procedural reform isn't coming any time soon. so i guess if we do become some sort of ideological dictatorship historians would look back on this period and single out this push and tug.

liberals would just want rightwingers to admit that they started it first. it doesn't matter who started it yesterday, but today you pushed me, and there's no teacher to stop it.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 26 2014 15:54 GMT
#22713
On June 27 2014 00:42 oneofthem wrote:
well when you have power you'd like to use it. proper procedural reform isn't coming any time soon. so i guess if we do become some sort of ideological dictatorship historians would look back on this period and single out this push and tug.

liberals would just want rightwingers to admit that they started it first. it doesn't matter who started it yesterday, but today you pushed me, and there's no teacher to stop it.

And where exactly have conservatives acted in imperial fashion with regards to national domestic policy?
Mercy13
Profile Joined January 2011
United States718 Posts
June 26 2014 16:00 GMT
#22714
On June 27 2014 00:54 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2014 00:42 oneofthem wrote:
well when you have power you'd like to use it. proper procedural reform isn't coming any time soon. so i guess if we do become some sort of ideological dictatorship historians would look back on this period and single out this push and tug.

liberals would just want rightwingers to admit that they started it first. it doesn't matter who started it yesterday, but today you pushed me, and there's no teacher to stop it.

And where exactly have conservatives acted in imperial fashion with regards to national domestic policy?


Gay marriage bans, which violate the 14th Amendment Equal Protection Clause, and are therefore illegal : )
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-26 16:12:29
June 26 2014 16:03 GMT
#22715
On June 27 2014 00:54 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2014 00:42 oneofthem wrote:
well when you have power you'd like to use it. proper procedural reform isn't coming any time soon. so i guess if we do become some sort of ideological dictatorship historians would look back on this period and single out this push and tug.

liberals would just want rightwingers to admit that they started it first. it doesn't matter who started it yesterday, but today you pushed me, and there's no teacher to stop it.

And where exactly have conservatives acted in imperial fashion with regards to national domestic policy?

imperial fashion isn't the wrong. the standard is doing the job of running the government's critical functions, which were repeatedly taken hostage. let's not go over this again.

somewhere in spacetime some freedom fighters are probably lecturing about the importance of exploiting the opposition's decency and i guess that's what the republicans have learned. alas decency only lasts so long.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
June 26 2014 16:09 GMT
#22716
On June 27 2014 00:54 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2014 00:42 oneofthem wrote:
well when you have power you'd like to use it. proper procedural reform isn't coming any time soon. so i guess if we do become some sort of ideological dictatorship historians would look back on this period and single out this push and tug.

liberals would just want rightwingers to admit that they started it first. it doesn't matter who started it yesterday, but today you pushed me, and there's no teacher to stop it.

And where exactly have conservatives acted in imperial fashion with regards to national domestic policy?

shutting the government down for two weeks and obstructing congress for years?

xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 26 2014 16:26 GMT
#22717
On June 27 2014 01:03 oneofthem wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2014 00:54 xDaunt wrote:
On June 27 2014 00:42 oneofthem wrote:
well when you have power you'd like to use it. proper procedural reform isn't coming any time soon. so i guess if we do become some sort of ideological dictatorship historians would look back on this period and single out this push and tug.

liberals would just want rightwingers to admit that they started it first. it doesn't matter who started it yesterday, but today you pushed me, and there's no teacher to stop it.

And where exactly have conservatives acted in imperial fashion with regards to national domestic policy?

imperial fashion isn't the wrong. the standard is doing the job of running the government's critical functions, which were repeatedly taken hostage. let's not go over this again.

somewhere in spacetime some freedom fighters are probably lecturing about the importance of exploiting the opposition's decency and i guess that's what the republicans have learned. alas decency only lasts so long.

Yes, it most certainly is. Bitch all you want about conservative "obstruction," but there is nothing about it that falls outside the confines of the law. And there certainly aren't any arguments coming from the Tea Party that an executive or other politician should be making decisions and policy outside the confines of the legislative process. Liberals and democrats, however, have far fewer qualms about overstepping the bounds of the law. Hell, your posts -- among those of others in thread -- repeatedly justify acting outside of the law to effect domestic policy.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-26 16:35:34
June 26 2014 16:32 GMT
#22718
What has Obama done that is illegal? You should probably stop using that synonymously to "I don't like what he's doing"
And also he has passed half as many executive orders as most of his predecessors, Republican presidents included.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 26 2014 16:41 GMT
#22719
On June 27 2014 01:00 Mercy13 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2014 00:54 xDaunt wrote:
On June 27 2014 00:42 oneofthem wrote:
well when you have power you'd like to use it. proper procedural reform isn't coming any time soon. so i guess if we do become some sort of ideological dictatorship historians would look back on this period and single out this push and tug.

liberals would just want rightwingers to admit that they started it first. it doesn't matter who started it yesterday, but today you pushed me, and there's no teacher to stop it.

And where exactly have conservatives acted in imperial fashion with regards to national domestic policy?


Gay marriage bans, which violate the 14th Amendment Equal Protection Clause, and are therefore illegal : )

Doesn't count. Gay marriage bans were passed through lawful legislative processes at the state level. Regardless of the constitutionality of the law, it was passed legally. Even if Obamacare had been declared unconstitutional on substantive grounds, I still wouldn't categorize it as the type of extra-legal abuse that I'm talking about it because it was passed legally. What concerns me is the eagerness of liberals to take actions outside of the regular, legal processes for taking those actions.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-26 16:48:24
June 26 2014 16:45 GMT
#22720
On June 27 2014 01:26 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 27 2014 01:03 oneofthem wrote:
On June 27 2014 00:54 xDaunt wrote:
On June 27 2014 00:42 oneofthem wrote:
well when you have power you'd like to use it. proper procedural reform isn't coming any time soon. so i guess if we do become some sort of ideological dictatorship historians would look back on this period and single out this push and tug.

liberals would just want rightwingers to admit that they started it first. it doesn't matter who started it yesterday, but today you pushed me, and there's no teacher to stop it.

And where exactly have conservatives acted in imperial fashion with regards to national domestic policy?

imperial fashion isn't the wrong. the standard is doing the job of running the government's critical functions, which were repeatedly taken hostage. let's not go over this again.

somewhere in spacetime some freedom fighters are probably lecturing about the importance of exploiting the opposition's decency and i guess that's what the republicans have learned. alas decency only lasts so long.

Yes, it most certainly is. Bitch all you want about conservative "obstruction," but there is nothing about it that falls outside the confines of the law. And there certainly aren't any arguments coming from the Tea Party that an executive or other politician should be making decisions and policy outside the confines of the legislative process. Liberals and democrats, however, have far fewer qualms about overstepping the bounds of the law. Hell, your posts -- among those of others in thread -- repeatedly justify acting outside of the law to effect domestic policy.

hard to take the legality distinction seriously when it's just an excuse to apply terrorist tactics to basic government functions. the consequences for hostage level obstruction are real and severe, and if your system allows for it, then the part of unwritten code that has hitherto prevented such behavior has been broken and yes, the system is broken as a result.

the legal procedure in this case has corrected obama. there's no harm in trying though. if it doesn't correct him, then it's legal. if it does, then the law worked. either way it's not going to matter all that much.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
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