In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On March 13 2018 07:52 Simberto wrote: "I would argue raising standards and holding people back a few times would help."
I would like to mention that this is in no way supported by empirical evidence. Holding people back a grade actually reduces the amount of stuff they learn during their next year. Retention is roughly as bad as corporal punishment (very bad) at home with regards to its effect on learning, and way worse than for example television at home.
This is interesting to me. Do you happen to have sources I can read regarding the supposed detrimental effects that holding students back a grade has on their learning? I'm particularly interested in math education as an example, since I feel these negative effects are counterintuitive. Considering the years of math build on each other, I would think it's of the utmost importance for high school students to have a strong foundation in arithmetic and algebra before starting the higher maths, even if that means spending another year (or summer school) on algebra. Students who have weak algebra skills will struggle even more in trigonometry and calculus, for example. You think it would be worse for them to spend more time on algebra than to be pushed through to the next math? Even if they're failing?
Talking about schools, will Devos fund training of 'Highly trained expert teachers' with concealed carry guns for public schools too? Nothing says 'do you homework' more than the hidden MP7 on your history teacher after all.
On March 13 2018 07:44 Simberto wrote: With regards to what effects the teaching results of a pupil, that is not something that you need to discuss in a vacuum based on feelings. There are loads of studies for this. Especially prominent is the Hattie-metastudy "Visible learning"
The main takeaway is that many things influence the learning outcome of a student. This is not especially surprising.
About 50% of the learning result is explained by stuff that is inherent to the student. It is important to note that this is not only views on education and motivational aspects, but also stuff like previous knowledge, intelligence, learning patterns, etc...A lot of home effects also fall into this category.
About 30% is based on the things that the teacher does.
The remaining 20% split about evenly onto school, principal, home and peers. source
This means multiple things. Teacher matter, but even the best teacher can not teach every student everything. A lot of the educational reforms, if they don't try to influence the teachers, are mostly for show and don't have enormous effects.
Firing teachers and other pressure onto teachers mostly makes it less desirable to become a teacher in the first place. So while you might have some positive effects in the short term, in the long term you are going to get sucky teachers because noone wants to be a teacher under those circumstances. What you need to do is make it attractive to become a teacher, and teach your teachers how to teach effectively.
However, there are other studies which show a very strong correlation between socioeconomical status of the parents and education results of the children. This differs based on what country you are looking at. If you want to take a closer look at this, the PISA study describes this pretty well. I mostly know about the results for Germany, and in that case, we are at the bottom average with regards to this specific statistic, but we have been getting better since the first PISA study.
This is especially not only linked to the quality of the school itself, as most people in Germany visit the same public schools. The socioeconomic factor is often based on stuff like having peace of mind with regards to basic necessities or having more educational possibilites at home (Things like having books at home, higher average intellectual quality of discussions, etc...)
That percentage source looks really interesting! I'm surprised they were able to quantify the variance so neatly, presumably by somehow controlling for so many other variables? I'll have to carefully peruse that source after work.
On March 13 2018 07:52 Simberto wrote: "I would argue raising standards and holding people back a few times would help."
I would like to mention that this is in no way supported by empirical evidence. Holding people back a grade actually reduces the amount of stuff they learn during their next year. Retention is roughly as bad as corporal punishment (very bad) at home with regards to its effect on learning, and way worse than for example television at home.
This is interesting to me. Do you happen to have sources I can read regarding the supposed detrimental effects that holding students back a grade has on their learning? I'm particularly interested in math education as an example, since I feel these negative effects are counterintuitive. Considering the years of math build on each other, I would think it's of the utmost importance for high school students to have a strong foundation in arithmetic and algebra before starting the higher maths, even if that means spending another year (or summer school) on algebra. Students who have weak algebra skills will struggle even more in trigonometry and calculus, for example. You think it would be worse for them to spend more time on algebra than to be pushed through to the next math? Even if they're failing?
I don't have exact details, i mostly know of it in the Hattie study, which they drill into us as an empirical basis for teaching at university. It is a metastudy that agregates loads of other studies in some way, though i must admit that i haven't looked into the methodology in detail, i mostly know the results.
The detailed ratings seem to change from year to year, but the basic gist is always the same. Retention was ~-0.16 for the last few years, now it seems to be at -0.32 in 2017. Which is pretty bad. Important for understanding the ratings it that "doing nothing at all", including no teaching, would be rated at ~0.3 or 0.4 simply due to students naturally learning stuff and developing mentally. I should probably also take a look at how they actually measure this stuff though.
Most of this i know due to pedagogics classes which are part of becoming a teacher in Germany.
On March 13 2018 07:52 Simberto wrote: "I would argue raising standards and holding people back a few times would help."
I would like to mention that this is in no way supported by empirical evidence. Holding people back a grade actually reduces the amount of stuff they learn during their next year. Retention is roughly as bad as corporal punishment (very bad) at home with regards to its effect on learning, and way worse than for example television at home.
This is interesting to me. Do you happen to have sources I can read regarding the supposed detrimental effects that holding students back a grade has on their learning? I'm particularly interested in math education as an example, since I feel these negative effects are counterintuitive. Considering the years of math build on each other, I would think it's of the utmost importance for high school students to have a strong foundation in arithmetic and algebra before starting the higher maths, even if that means spending another year (or summer school) on algebra. Students who have weak algebra skills will struggle even more in trigonometry and calculus, for example. You think it would be worse for them to spend more time on algebra than to be pushed through to the next math? Even if they're failing?
I don't have exact details, i mostly know of it in the Hattie study, which they drill into us as an empirical basis for teaching at university. It is a metastudy that agregates loads of other studies in some way, though i must admit that i haven't looked into the methodology in detail, i mostly know the results.
The detailed ratings seem to change from year to year, but the basic gist is always the same. Retention was ~-0.16 for the last few years, now it seems to be at -0.32 in 2017. Which is pretty bad. Important for understanding the ratings it that "doing nothing at all", including no teaching, would be rated at ~0.3 or 0.4 simply due to students naturally learning stuff and developing mentally. I should probably also take a look at how they actually measure this stuff though.
Most of this i know due to pedagogics classes which are part of becoming a teacher in Germany.
On March 13 2018 08:11 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Talking about schools, will Devos fund training of 'Highly trained expert teachers' with concealed carry guns for public schools too? Nothing says 'do you homework' more than the hidden MP7 on your history teacher after all.
I wouldn't usually post this kind of youtube link but I stumbled upon this and I have no idea who the guy in the video is or if it's anything you can trust but it seems to be a follow-up on the Ambassador to the Netherlands that was talking about politicians and cars being (literally) burned in the streets of the Netherlands and there being no-go zones over there.
I know the innitial video of him that showed him first claiming that all that's fake-news because he never said it only to follow it up with a "no, I never called THAT fake-news" was posted in here, but I don't think the follow-up that had him bombarded by questions in that room was shown in here. And it's great. Even better than the innitial one:
So by all means, ignore the guy presenting this. I have no idea who it is nor have I watched his videos but he does show the clips. If someone can find me another source without commentary I'll gladly edit that in instead. But I have to say that gave me one giant smile across my face. Glad they're treating those kind of people the way they do, complete with the necessary level of snark.
(I can answer his question though, why don't reporters behave that kind of way in the US? Because if they do they don't get invited back or will be ignored while the Fox News, Breitbart or whoeverelse- reports will pretend it's not an issue and just ask other questions. It only works if all your reporters are willing to stand up for this kind of thing. If a couple don't care it just doens't work anymore)
Seriously that hero lady at the end of the video: "If we don't have any further questions..." - "WE DO [with a heavy implication of 'but answer the fucking question first']"
On March 13 2018 08:11 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Talking about schools, will Devos fund training of 'Highly trained expert teachers' with concealed carry guns for public schools too? Nothing says 'do you homework' more than the hidden MP7 on your history teacher after all.
I'm interested in learning what kinds of criteria and protocols will be in place for allowing teachers to bring guns to school.
I took a poll in my 6th grade classes and they voted 45-8 against arming teachers. They said they would feel less safe, and I tend to agree with them. Plus SROs aren't in favor of arming teachers. Plus the majority of teachers aren't in favor of arming teachers.
I think we've been approaching the issue the wrong way. Even arming the most qualified teachers is not likely to make much of a difference. In a given classroom the teacher will just get targeted first, and a handgun will lose to a long gun anyway. The solution is to arm the students so they have numbers on their side.
The House Intelligence Committee has finished all its interviews in its congressional Russia investigation and Republican members have drafted a report finding there is no evidence of collusion.
The 150-page report, which has not been seen by committee Democrats, supports evidence of Russian cyberattacks on US political institutions in 2015 and 2016 and that "problematic contacts" occurred between intelligence officials and the media.
On March 13 2018 11:08 Plansix wrote: Police are not particularly good shots as it is. So your high school math teacher is just going end up killing of their students.
They aren't good anything. My shitty uncle could be a cop. The requirements are super low. They accomplish nothing notable or above average prior to becoming a police officer.
Private schools are terrible. Maybe if rich people had kids going to public schools and were dissatisfied with the education, they could donate to make it better? Or lobby to make general education better? Private schools are a cancer that needs to be removed.
On March 13 2018 11:08 Plansix wrote: Police are not particularly good shots as it is. So your high school math teacher is just going end up killing of their students.
They aren't good anything. My shitty uncle could be a cop. The requirements are super low. They accomplish nothing notable or above average prior to becoming a police officer.
Pretty brutal to disparage the police unilaterally. Well, what do you suggest? Why is there this problem?
On March 13 2018 11:20 mierin wrote: Private schools are terrible. Maybe if rich people had kids going to public schools and were dissatisfied with the education, they could donate to make it better? Or lobby to make general education better? Private schools are a cancer that needs to be removed.
To be fair, private schools can be awesome for the families attending those schools.
As far as being a public good though, then yes they hurt more than they help.
The House Intelligence Committee has finished all its interviews in its congressional Russia investigation and Republican members have drafted a report finding there is no evidence of collusion.
The 150-page report, which has not been seen by committee Democrats, supports evidence of Russian cyberattacks on US political institutions in 2015 and 2016 and that "problematic contacts" occurred between intelligence officials and the media.
How does this report process work, exactly? Republicans are in charge and write the whole thing... Because they're the majority?... And then Democrats can only read it and cry foul without being able to do anything about it?
That seems pretty ridiculous, considering all of the nonpartisan intelligence agencies recognized collusion, the Trump crew admitted collusion on several accounts, and even the Republicans accept the idea that Putin tried to screw over Hillary. It's Republicans vs. Reality again, and while they're in control, everything's made up and the points don't matter.
On March 13 2018 11:08 Plansix wrote: Police are not particularly good shots as it is. So your high school math teacher is just going end up killing of their students.
They aren't good anything. My shitty uncle could be a cop. The requirements are super low. They accomplish nothing notable or above average prior to becoming a police officer.
Pretty brutal to disparage the police unilaterally. Well, what do you suggest? Why is there this problem?
They're not all bad. I am just pointing out that as an institution, state law enforcement has an extremely low barrier to entry. Cops being a bad shot shouldn't be surprising because the shooting and otherwise training they require is extremely low. We don't have any reason to assume a cop is an ethical/capable person.
The House Intelligence Committee has finished all its interviews in its congressional Russia investigation and Republican members have drafted a report finding there is no evidence of collusion.
The 150-page report, which has not been seen by committee Democrats, supports evidence of Russian cyberattacks on US political institutions in 2015 and 2016 and that "problematic contacts" occurred between intelligence officials and the media.
How does this report process work, exactly? Republicans are in charge and write the whole thing... Because they're the majority?... And then Democrats can only read it and cry foul without being able to do anything about it?
That seems pretty ridiculous, considering all of the nonpartisan intelligence agencies recognized collusion, the Trump crew admitted collusion on several accounts, and even the Republicans accept the idea that Putin tried to screw over Hillary. It's Republicans vs. Reality again, and while they're in control, everything's made up and the points don't matter.
It is supposed to be a joint report. The Republicans broke the process in the House after hearing about the investigation into the Trump team. The house committee is complete bullshit at this point.
EPT
