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On November 19 2012 17:58 Shelke14 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 17:51 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:36 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:30 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:28 Sweetfrost wrote:
The death tally is up to 87 Palestineans after Isreals bombing. Ten of them where infant children. Women and children of the same family where killed when one of Isreals bombs hit a civilian house.
Stop this madness! Half to 2/3 of these were militants, and over 500 rockets launched from gaza in the past days aimed at civilian areas with 3 killed. Fact is the violence could stop now if hamas wanted to but they dont. That is not true, if Hamas stopped the violence all the Israeli government would do is go back to further constructing buildings in areas they are not allowed too and also tighten up the blockade that Palestine needs for basic living. Am I saying Hamas is justified in their actions? No, of course not but the Israeli government has pushed them into a corner and this is all they have left to do. There is no land dispute around gaza and their situation was much the better before the second infitda when there was no blockade on gaza. Also remember that they share a order with Egypt who also keep it closed. There will be no negotiations until the violence and terror stop and hamas and the PLO have a reconciliation. This is not "all they have left to do" as they will always come out worse (see cast led) but when you have Iran who funds them want to shift attention away from Syria.... So the past couple of decades Palestine has been fighting Israel has been a smokescreen to stay away from Syria? I'm saying that they have been pushed into a corner for decades and fighting is the only thing they have left (or so they think). They should have pushed for more international pressure at the UN way back and pressed to get a seat in the general assembly. They messed up by not doing this and now that they are trying Israel and the US are blocking it because they see in a couple years (I don't know exactly how long) Israel will have full control. Palestine will continue these attacks and finally Israel will just push in and claim they are fighting back with a much more devastating result for Palestine.
as far as Syria you know im talking about this current round. Israel is acting as any nation would to rocket attacks on their civilians. Hamas just want PR and they know they will come out worse but they dont care, they still claim "cast led" was a victory. The PLO dosnt use violence and their quality of life if miles ahead.
Israel will not have "full control" in a couple of year as the demographics are against us.
Israel is responding as it should to the current situation.
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On November 19 2012 18:02 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 17:58 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:51 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:36 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:30 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:28 Sweetfrost wrote:
The death tally is up to 87 Palestineans after Isreals bombing. Ten of them where infant children. Women and children of the same family where killed when one of Isreals bombs hit a civilian house.
Stop this madness! Half to 2/3 of these were militants, and over 500 rockets launched from gaza in the past days aimed at civilian areas with 3 killed. Fact is the violence could stop now if hamas wanted to but they dont. That is not true, if Hamas stopped the violence all the Israeli government would do is go back to further constructing buildings in areas they are not allowed too and also tighten up the blockade that Palestine needs for basic living. Am I saying Hamas is justified in their actions? No, of course not but the Israeli government has pushed them into a corner and this is all they have left to do. There is no land dispute around gaza and their situation was much the better before the second infitda when there was no blockade on gaza. Also remember that they share a order with Egypt who also keep it closed. There will be no negotiations until the violence and terror stop and hamas and the PLO have a reconciliation. This is not "all they have left to do" as they will always come out worse (see cast led) but when you have Iran who funds them want to shift attention away from Syria.... So the past couple of decades Palestine has been fighting Israel has been a smokescreen to stay away from Syria? I'm saying that they have been pushed into a corner for decades and fighting is the only thing they have left (or so they think). They should have pushed for more international pressure at the UN way back and pressed to get a seat in the general assembly. They messed up by not doing this and now that they are trying Israel and the US are blocking it because they see in a couple years (I don't know exactly how long) Israel will have full control. Palestine will continue these attacks and finally Israel will just push in and claim they are fighting back with a much more devastating result for Palestine. as far as Syria you know im talking about this current round. Israel is acting as any nation would to rocket attacks on their civilians. Hamas just want PR and they know they will come out worse but they dont care, they still claim "cast led" was a victory. The PLO dosnt use violence and their quality of life if miles ahead. Israel will not have "full control" in a couple of year as the demographics are against us. Israel is responding as it should to the current situation.
The thing is Israel will have full control once the demographic shifts too their side after they bomb the living hell out of Palestine. You missed my point where Israel will claim self defense to the point of a full out attack on Palestine when they feel the international black lash will not be too heavy.
EDIT: I have to go for the rest of the night because I need to finish my paper on Anarchism (and why I'm not a fan of it) for class tomorrow!
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On November 19 2012 17:46 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 17:36 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:30 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:28 Sweetfrost wrote:
The death tally is up to 87 Palestineans after Isreals bombing. Ten of them where infant children. Women and children of the same family where killed when one of Isreals bombs hit a civilian house.
Stop this madness! Half to 2/3 of these were militants, and over 500 rockets launched from gaza in the past days aimed at civilian areas with 3 killed. Fact is the violence could stop now if hamas wanted to but they dont. That is not true, if Hamas stopped the violence all the Israeli government would do is go back to further constructing buildings in areas they are not allowed too and also tighten up the blockade that Palestine needs for basic living. Am I saying Hamas is justified in their actions? No, of course not but the Israeli government has pushed them into a corner and this is all they have left to do. Pushed into corner that they have to fire rockets, so that their condition deteriorate while gaining nothing? They sound so smart. Firing rockets is the last thing that would improve the condition in Gaza.
Firing rockets isn't helping them, but not firing rockets didn't help them either for example in 2008 when Israel broke the ceasefire. I agree that overall it's counterproductive, but it is understandable that they would continue to do so out of impotent frustration.
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On November 19 2012 18:09 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 17:46 furymonkey wrote:On November 19 2012 17:36 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:30 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:28 Sweetfrost wrote:
The death tally is up to 87 Palestineans after Isreals bombing. Ten of them where infant children. Women and children of the same family where killed when one of Isreals bombs hit a civilian house.
Stop this madness! Half to 2/3 of these were militants, and over 500 rockets launched from gaza in the past days aimed at civilian areas with 3 killed. Fact is the violence could stop now if hamas wanted to but they dont. That is not true, if Hamas stopped the violence all the Israeli government would do is go back to further constructing buildings in areas they are not allowed too and also tighten up the blockade that Palestine needs for basic living. Am I saying Hamas is justified in their actions? No, of course not but the Israeli government has pushed them into a corner and this is all they have left to do. Pushed into corner that they have to fire rockets, so that their condition deteriorate while gaining nothing? They sound so smart. Firing rockets is the last thing that would improve the condition in Gaza. Firing rockets isn't helping them, but not firing rockets didn't help them either for example in 2008 when Israel broke the ceasefire. I agree that overall it's counterproductive, but it is understandable that they would continue to do so out of impotent frustration.
2008, was then (just as it is now) a response to the constant unbearable rocket attack on civilians.
And as i said, there is a reason why the population in the west bank are in a much better state then Gaza.
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On November 19 2012 18:11 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 18:09 HunterX11 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:46 furymonkey wrote:On November 19 2012 17:36 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:30 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:28 Sweetfrost wrote:
The death tally is up to 87 Palestineans after Isreals bombing. Ten of them where infant children. Women and children of the same family where killed when one of Isreals bombs hit a civilian house.
Stop this madness! Half to 2/3 of these were militants, and over 500 rockets launched from gaza in the past days aimed at civilian areas with 3 killed. Fact is the violence could stop now if hamas wanted to but they dont. That is not true, if Hamas stopped the violence all the Israeli government would do is go back to further constructing buildings in areas they are not allowed too and also tighten up the blockade that Palestine needs for basic living. Am I saying Hamas is justified in their actions? No, of course not but the Israeli government has pushed them into a corner and this is all they have left to do. Pushed into corner that they have to fire rockets, so that their condition deteriorate while gaining nothing? They sound so smart. Firing rockets is the last thing that would improve the condition in Gaza. Firing rockets isn't helping them, but not firing rockets didn't help them either for example in 2008 when Israel broke the ceasefire. I agree that overall it's counterproductive, but it is understandable that they would continue to do so out of impotent frustration. 2008, was then (just as it is now) a response to the constant unbearable rocket attack on civilians.
I don't think a near-complete halt in rocket attacks and months of no deaths from rockets counts as constant or unbearable.
Boy look at that constant unbearable attack of...1 rocket and 1 mortar?!?!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VL7BW.jpg)
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On November 19 2012 18:12 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 18:11 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 18:09 HunterX11 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:46 furymonkey wrote:On November 19 2012 17:36 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:30 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:28 Sweetfrost wrote:
The death tally is up to 87 Palestineans after Isreals bombing. Ten of them where infant children. Women and children of the same family where killed when one of Isreals bombs hit a civilian house.
Stop this madness! Half to 2/3 of these were militants, and over 500 rockets launched from gaza in the past days aimed at civilian areas with 3 killed. Fact is the violence could stop now if hamas wanted to but they dont. That is not true, if Hamas stopped the violence all the Israeli government would do is go back to further constructing buildings in areas they are not allowed too and also tighten up the blockade that Palestine needs for basic living. Am I saying Hamas is justified in their actions? No, of course not but the Israeli government has pushed them into a corner and this is all they have left to do. Pushed into corner that they have to fire rockets, so that their condition deteriorate while gaining nothing? They sound so smart. Firing rockets is the last thing that would improve the condition in Gaza. Firing rockets isn't helping them, but not firing rockets didn't help them either for example in 2008 when Israel broke the ceasefire. I agree that overall it's counterproductive, but it is understandable that they would continue to do so out of impotent frustration. 2008, was then (just as it is now) a response to the constant unbearable rocket attack on civilians. I don't think a near-complete halt in rocket attacks and months of no deaths from rockets counts as constant or unbearable.
Even with no deaths the damage and reality of running to a safe room 30 times a day is unbearable. If i had time i would link the rocket numbers (and they were high before cast led) but i have no time, i think there is a wiki for it.
Edit: link nov and dec also, operation started in end of dec.
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Israel2209 Posts
There is a strategic reason for Hamas to not shoot during the summer. When the sky is clear with no clouds the source of the rocket will be spotted immediately almost 100% of the time.
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On November 19 2012 18:14 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 18:12 HunterX11 wrote:On November 19 2012 18:11 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 18:09 HunterX11 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:46 furymonkey wrote:On November 19 2012 17:36 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:30 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:28 Sweetfrost wrote:
The death tally is up to 87 Palestineans after Isreals bombing. Ten of them where infant children. Women and children of the same family where killed when one of Isreals bombs hit a civilian house.
Stop this madness! Half to 2/3 of these were militants, and over 500 rockets launched from gaza in the past days aimed at civilian areas with 3 killed. Fact is the violence could stop now if hamas wanted to but they dont. That is not true, if Hamas stopped the violence all the Israeli government would do is go back to further constructing buildings in areas they are not allowed too and also tighten up the blockade that Palestine needs for basic living. Am I saying Hamas is justified in their actions? No, of course not but the Israeli government has pushed them into a corner and this is all they have left to do. Pushed into corner that they have to fire rockets, so that their condition deteriorate while gaining nothing? They sound so smart. Firing rockets is the last thing that would improve the condition in Gaza. Firing rockets isn't helping them, but not firing rockets didn't help them either for example in 2008 when Israel broke the ceasefire. I agree that overall it's counterproductive, but it is understandable that they would continue to do so out of impotent frustration. 2008, was then (just as it is now) a response to the constant unbearable rocket attack on civilians. I don't think a near-complete halt in rocket attacks and months of no deaths from rockets counts as constant or unbearable. Even with no deaths the damage and reality of running to a safe room 30 times a day is unbearable. If i had time i would link the rocket numbers (and they were high before cast led) but i have no time, i think there is a wiki for it. Edit: link nov and dec also, operation started in end of dec.
November is when the numbers shot up after Israelis broke the truce on November 4th.
There are 30 days in a month. That means 30 rocket attacks a day would mean 900 per month. 900 does not equal 2. 900 and 2 are not the same number. 900 is a different, much larger number than 2.
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On November 19 2012 17:54 Shelke14 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 17:46 furymonkey wrote:On November 19 2012 17:36 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:30 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:28 Sweetfrost wrote:
The death tally is up to 87 Palestineans after Isreals bombing. Ten of them where infant children. Women and children of the same family where killed when one of Isreals bombs hit a civilian house.
Stop this madness! Half to 2/3 of these were militants, and over 500 rockets launched from gaza in the past days aimed at civilian areas with 3 killed. Fact is the violence could stop now if hamas wanted to but they dont. That is not true, if Hamas stopped the violence all the Israeli government would do is go back to further constructing buildings in areas they are not allowed too and also tighten up the blockade that Palestine needs for basic living. Am I saying Hamas is justified in their actions? No, of course not but the Israeli government has pushed them into a corner and this is all they have left to do. Pushed into corner that they have to fire rockets, so that their condition deteriorate while gaining nothing? They sound so smart. How would you propose Palestine should act? If they put down the weapons Israel just keeps moving in building new houses and facilities and keeping the blockade up deciding what Palestine should get. The mistake by Palestine was not pushing for a unified government sooner and attempting to get a seat in the UN. Now that they are being pushed to the brink, Israel and the US just have to block their bids for a UN seat a little longer because they know Palestine cannot keep this up much longer. As long as the US backs Israel with weapons, missiles.. etc no other nation can stand up and tell them to stop doing these other illegal activities. What does Palestine do, they fight back the only way they think will allow them to survive. The negative side to this is it allows Israel to just basically walk in with their better technology of weapons and flat out win, all while saying it is in defense.
They are building new houses regardless, I failed to see how rockets is preventing all that. Sorry, I just don't see how firing these rockets allow them to survive. The negative side you describe basically just accelerate their speed Gaza is deteriorating.
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On November 19 2012 18:38 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 17:54 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:46 furymonkey wrote:On November 19 2012 17:36 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:30 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:28 Sweetfrost wrote:
The death tally is up to 87 Palestineans after Isreals bombing. Ten of them where infant children. Women and children of the same family where killed when one of Isreals bombs hit a civilian house.
Stop this madness! Half to 2/3 of these were militants, and over 500 rockets launched from gaza in the past days aimed at civilian areas with 3 killed. Fact is the violence could stop now if hamas wanted to but they dont. That is not true, if Hamas stopped the violence all the Israeli government would do is go back to further constructing buildings in areas they are not allowed too and also tighten up the blockade that Palestine needs for basic living. Am I saying Hamas is justified in their actions? No, of course not but the Israeli government has pushed them into a corner and this is all they have left to do. Pushed into corner that they have to fire rockets, so that their condition deteriorate while gaining nothing? They sound so smart. How would you propose Palestine should act? If they put down the weapons Israel just keeps moving in building new houses and facilities and keeping the blockade up deciding what Palestine should get. The mistake by Palestine was not pushing for a unified government sooner and attempting to get a seat in the UN. Now that they are being pushed to the brink, Israel and the US just have to block their bids for a UN seat a little longer because they know Palestine cannot keep this up much longer. As long as the US backs Israel with weapons, missiles.. etc no other nation can stand up and tell them to stop doing these other illegal activities. What does Palestine do, they fight back the only way they think will allow them to survive. The negative side to this is it allows Israel to just basically walk in with their better technology of weapons and flat out win, all while saying it is in defense. They are building new houses regardless, I failed to see how rockets is preventing all that. Sorry, I just don't see how firing these rockets allow them to survive. The negative side you describe basically just accelerate their speed Gaza is deteriorating.
Exactly! They are going to build new houses in Palestine territory illegally whether the Palestine people want them to or not. That's what I have been saying! I already stated that rockets are not the right way to go about it, again, I agree with you there. But, it is the only way they see it as keeping themselves relevant. It is the only way they foresee it as a way for them to slow down Israel's press into Palestine territory (Do I agree that they should use rockets? of course not, I don't want to see anyone die but its all they believe they can do).
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"The international consensus (including the United Nations) is that all Israeli settlements on the West Bank beyond the Green Line border are illegal under international law." (from wikipedia with 4 sources)
as long as this happens i will side with palestine.
tho obviously i dont want anyone killed and find the fact that hamas targets civilians intolerable.
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On November 19 2012 18:38 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 17:54 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:46 furymonkey wrote:On November 19 2012 17:36 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:30 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:28 Sweetfrost wrote:
The death tally is up to 87 Palestineans after Isreals bombing. Ten of them where infant children. Women and children of the same family where killed when one of Isreals bombs hit a civilian house.
Stop this madness! Half to 2/3 of these were militants, and over 500 rockets launched from gaza in the past days aimed at civilian areas with 3 killed. Fact is the violence could stop now if hamas wanted to but they dont. That is not true, if Hamas stopped the violence all the Israeli government would do is go back to further constructing buildings in areas they are not allowed too and also tighten up the blockade that Palestine needs for basic living. Am I saying Hamas is justified in their actions? No, of course not but the Israeli government has pushed them into a corner and this is all they have left to do. Pushed into corner that they have to fire rockets, so that their condition deteriorate while gaining nothing? They sound so smart. How would you propose Palestine should act? If they put down the weapons Israel just keeps moving in building new houses and facilities and keeping the blockade up deciding what Palestine should get. The mistake by Palestine was not pushing for a unified government sooner and attempting to get a seat in the UN. Now that they are being pushed to the brink, Israel and the US just have to block their bids for a UN seat a little longer because they know Palestine cannot keep this up much longer. As long as the US backs Israel with weapons, missiles.. etc no other nation can stand up and tell them to stop doing these other illegal activities. What does Palestine do, they fight back the only way they think will allow them to survive. The negative side to this is it allows Israel to just basically walk in with their better technology of weapons and flat out win, all while saying it is in defense. They are building new houses regardless, I failed to see how rockets is preventing all that. Sorry, I just don't see how firing these rockets allow them to survive. The negative side you describe basically just accelerate their speed Gaza is deteriorating.
I am not even anti-Israel and I think this is a silly oversimplification of the issue. There is no plainly rational solution to the problem. This is not a case of misplaced energy, it is a case of energy with no place to go.
It may not be a rational choice but it is the human choice. When we are presented with the classic lose/lose scenario to either lay down and die or fight and die, we fight.
In my view, palestinians are getting the raw side of the deal. We have seen in our own country how systematically oppressing people for long periods of time not only hurts the individuals but also established a survival culture which is not conducive to peace. I dont know how to completely reverse the damage since we are yet to achieve that but I do know that the first step is equality.
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On November 19 2012 19:03 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 18:38 furymonkey wrote:On November 19 2012 17:54 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:46 furymonkey wrote:On November 19 2012 17:36 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:30 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:28 Sweetfrost wrote:
The death tally is up to 87 Palestineans after Isreals bombing. Ten of them where infant children. Women and children of the same family where killed when one of Isreals bombs hit a civilian house.
Stop this madness! Half to 2/3 of these were militants, and over 500 rockets launched from gaza in the past days aimed at civilian areas with 3 killed. Fact is the violence could stop now if hamas wanted to but they dont. That is not true, if Hamas stopped the violence all the Israeli government would do is go back to further constructing buildings in areas they are not allowed too and also tighten up the blockade that Palestine needs for basic living. Am I saying Hamas is justified in their actions? No, of course not but the Israeli government has pushed them into a corner and this is all they have left to do. Pushed into corner that they have to fire rockets, so that their condition deteriorate while gaining nothing? They sound so smart. How would you propose Palestine should act? If they put down the weapons Israel just keeps moving in building new houses and facilities and keeping the blockade up deciding what Palestine should get. The mistake by Palestine was not pushing for a unified government sooner and attempting to get a seat in the UN. Now that they are being pushed to the brink, Israel and the US just have to block their bids for a UN seat a little longer because they know Palestine cannot keep this up much longer. As long as the US backs Israel with weapons, missiles.. etc no other nation can stand up and tell them to stop doing these other illegal activities. What does Palestine do, they fight back the only way they think will allow them to survive. The negative side to this is it allows Israel to just basically walk in with their better technology of weapons and flat out win, all while saying it is in defense. They are building new houses regardless, I failed to see how rockets is preventing all that. Sorry, I just don't see how firing these rockets allow them to survive. The negative side you describe basically just accelerate their speed Gaza is deteriorating. I am not even anti-Israel and I think this is a silly oversimplification of the issue. There is no plainly rational solution to the problem. This is not a case of misplaced energy, it is a case of energy with no place to go. It may not be a rational choice but it is the human choice. When we are presented with the classic lose/lose scenario to either lay down and die or fight and die, we fight. In my view, palestinians are getting the raw side of the deal. We have seen in our own country how systematically oppressing people for long periods of time not only hurts the individuals but also established a survival culture which is not conducive to peace. I dont know how to completely reverse the damage since we are yet to achieve that but I do know that the first step is equality.
It isn't lay down or fight, it's negotiate or fight.
The choice of Hamas is abundantly clear.
The solution is a slow build-up of negotiations, starting with small steps so both sides can prove their integrity. The solution isn't to instigate a two-state solution tomorrow.
These negotiations will entirely exclude Hamas, who must be destroyed because there can be no compromise with them. They seek the destruction of Israel. You can't negotiate with someone who is trying to murder you, when he refuses to abandon the "murdering-you" part of his plan.
You don't negotiate with agressive totalitarian movements. They only seek to negotiate their way closer to a position of power. You can't curb their ambitions with trivial land grants.
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On November 19 2012 17:30 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 17:28 Sweetfrost wrote:
The death tally is up to 87 Palestineans after Isreals bombing. Ten of them where infant children. Women and children of the same family where killed when one of Isreals bombs hit a civilian house.
Stop this madness! Half to 2/3 of these were militants, and over 500 rockets launched from gaza in the past days aimed at civilian areas with 3 killed. Fact is the violence could stop now if hamas wanted to but they dont.
Yes half of the people killed were millitants, that's not a good thing! Because that means half of the people killed are civilian!! You cannot treat human lives the way Isreal does.
I depise Hamas and all religous fanatics who kill in the name of their gods. But I think no higher of the Isreal army and goverment. The commit more civilian murders then Hamas. Isreal are terrorists aswell.
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Just a highlight
THE DESIRE to prevent harm to innocent civilians in Gaza will ultimately lead to harming the truly innocent: the residents of southern Israel. The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren’t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences.
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On November 19 2012 17:50 ImFromPortugal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 17:46 furymonkey wrote:On November 19 2012 17:36 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:30 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:28 Sweetfrost wrote:
The death tally is up to 87 Palestineans after Isreals bombing. Ten of them where infant children. Women and children of the same family where killed when one of Isreals bombs hit a civilian house.
Stop this madness! Half to 2/3 of these were militants, and over 500 rockets launched from gaza in the past days aimed at civilian areas with 3 killed. Fact is the violence could stop now if hamas wanted to but they dont. That is not true, if Hamas stopped the violence all the Israeli government would do is go back to further constructing buildings in areas they are not allowed too and also tighten up the blockade that Palestine needs for basic living. Am I saying Hamas is justified in their actions? No, of course not but the Israeli government has pushed them into a corner and this is all they have left to do. Pushed into corner that they have to fire rockets, so that their condition deteriorate while gaining nothing? They sound so smart. the the status quo favors israel
Status quo is Palestine can lay down and die, or shoot pointless rockets and die.
The "best" play Palestine has is a pacifist one, but even that is difficult given that it's not really in their culture and the Isreal / American propaganda machine is mighty.
It's also not in anyone's [The West's] interest to help Hamas / Palestine.
Isreal is probably one of the most dangerous States in the world right now with top tier tech and a Manifest Destiny mindset.
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On November 19 2012 19:19 Praetorial wrote:Just a highlight Show nested quote +
THE DESIRE to prevent harm to innocent civilians in Gaza will ultimately lead to harming the truly innocent: the residents of southern Israel. The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren’t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences.
Bullshit. This is so wrong I want to throw up.
43% of Gazans are between 0 and 14 years old (how can you more innocent than a kid ?).
After reading more and more, I came to the conclusion that Israel is the most dangerous state in the 21th century.
On November 19 2012 19:12 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 19:03 Velocirapture wrote:On November 19 2012 18:38 furymonkey wrote:On November 19 2012 17:54 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:46 furymonkey wrote:On November 19 2012 17:36 Shelke14 wrote:On November 19 2012 17:30 Goozen wrote:On November 19 2012 17:28 Sweetfrost wrote:
The death tally is up to 87 Palestineans after Isreals bombing. Ten of them where infant children. Women and children of the same family where killed when one of Isreals bombs hit a civilian house.
Stop this madness! Half to 2/3 of these were militants, and over 500 rockets launched from gaza in the past days aimed at civilian areas with 3 killed. Fact is the violence could stop now if hamas wanted to but they dont. That is not true, if Hamas stopped the violence all the Israeli government would do is go back to further constructing buildings in areas they are not allowed too and also tighten up the blockade that Palestine needs for basic living. Am I saying Hamas is justified in their actions? No, of course not but the Israeli government has pushed them into a corner and this is all they have left to do. Pushed into corner that they have to fire rockets, so that their condition deteriorate while gaining nothing? They sound so smart. How would you propose Palestine should act? If they put down the weapons Israel just keeps moving in building new houses and facilities and keeping the blockade up deciding what Palestine should get. The mistake by Palestine was not pushing for a unified government sooner and attempting to get a seat in the UN. Now that they are being pushed to the brink, Israel and the US just have to block their bids for a UN seat a little longer because they know Palestine cannot keep this up much longer. As long as the US backs Israel with weapons, missiles.. etc no other nation can stand up and tell them to stop doing these other illegal activities. What does Palestine do, they fight back the only way they think will allow them to survive. The negative side to this is it allows Israel to just basically walk in with their better technology of weapons and flat out win, all while saying it is in defense. They are building new houses regardless, I failed to see how rockets is preventing all that. Sorry, I just don't see how firing these rockets allow them to survive. The negative side you describe basically just accelerate their speed Gaza is deteriorating. I am not even anti-Israel and I think this is a silly oversimplification of the issue. There is no plainly rational solution to the problem. This is not a case of misplaced energy, it is a case of energy with no place to go. It may not be a rational choice but it is the human choice. When we are presented with the classic lose/lose scenario to either lay down and die or fight and die, we fight. In my view, palestinians are getting the raw side of the deal. We have seen in our own country how systematically oppressing people for long periods of time not only hurts the individuals but also established a survival culture which is not conducive to peace. I dont know how to completely reverse the damage since we are yet to achieve that but I do know that the first step is equality. It isn't lay down or fight, it's negotiate or fight. The choice of Hamas is abundantly clear. The solution is a slow build-up of negotiations, starting with small steps so both sides can prove their integrity. The solution isn't to instigate a two-state solution tomorrow. These negotiations will entirely exclude Hamas, who must be destroyed because there can be no compromise with them. They seek the destruction of Israel. You can't negotiate with someone who is trying to murder you, when he refuses to abandon the "murdering-you" part of his plan. You don't negotiate with agressive totalitarian movements. They only seek to negotiate their way closer to a position of power. You can't curb their ambitions with trivial land grants.
Stop talking about solution when your knowledge on the situation is so lacking that everything you says is ridiculous.
Emphasis on "totalitarian movement".
Hamas is an excuse for Israel to continue their domination on this part of the world. Without the blocade and the humanitarian situation in gaza (high density, high % of kids, etc.) the Hamas wouldn't be so powerful - because yes the Hamas is helping, building school, giving shelters and food,
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This is getting way too much press.
If Chelsea Clinton wrote something about how Canadians are dirty and we must annex them, would you agree that Americans were evil? The kid of a former leader who isn't a leader themselves is irrelevant at this point in time.
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EPT
