On May 05 2012 01:45 GloPikkle wrote: I don't really understand why people are defending Destiny given that his attitude over most of his controversial stuff has been "I do what I want". I don't think he ever didn't understand what the consequences might be, he just said that he didn't care. He doesn't really have anyone to blame but himself. Sensitive people will be sensitive, and some people will go further than others to rectify their perceived wrongs.
I think 95% of his BM is pretty funny, but if you're going to try to be edgier and more controversial, I think you also need to think about risk management. And honestly his risk management boiled down to "stfu I do what I want". Well, that's fine, but just don't expect that to be fine forever.
And yes, it IS indeed more professional to NOT be like that. Entertainers, athletes, politicians, anyone in the public eye is held to similar standards.
Because the cult of personality is a strong thing for some people. They don't understand why many people in the community think that his actions can be extremely damaging and that's why we contacted the team/sponsors.
I hate Destiny as a player and comedian, but nevertheless this was a massive abuse of community influence, and IMO what he said wasn't a big deal.
Saying nigger and gook and all sorts of racist shit is actually a big deal and you will get into shit if you say it in any other aspect of public life, so why should a public stream by an esports personality viewed by thousands of people be any different?
but its ok for rappers to this, cuz, you know, they are black?
What? I don't think anyone has made that argument.
Well how come rappers can use it in their songs? Regardless of their skin color. I'm curious.
Rappers do not use the word as an insult, that is not a trivial difference.
On May 05 2012 02:00 Shiori wrote: [quote] It shouldn't be a big deal anywhere, unless you're some sort of publicly funded position.
Yes, because casual racism is totally cool unless you're a politician! Moron.
Whether it's cool or otherwise, it's not worth getting fired over IMO, especially if it was part of an angry outburst or obvious comedy (this was both).
That's cool, tell that to the athletes and professionals that get reprimanded for shouting "niggers" every time they lose or get mad.
I don't think it's acceptable to fire those people. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think so.
Society punishes people who used racial slurs towards people in a public arena, that doesn't always mean getting fired, although it often does.
There are tons of examples just over the last few years.
Yes...and I'm saying I disagree with that, too, unless it happens on the job or when the speaker is officially acting in some capacity as the voice of the company. Athletes calling each other 'niggers' on the field is obviously problematic given its televised to an international audience. But if some paparazzo catches them saying 'nigger' on their home practice court? Don't care at all. Hell, Destiny's stream even had a content advisory warning at the bottom.
Then you don't care about people using racial slurs, noted. Some of us think they're completely inappropriate because there is no reason to use them unless you are a trying to a denigrate a person based on race.
Depends, actually. If the President got up tomorrow and called Mexican immigrants "beaners," you can bet I'd have a problem with it. Similarly, if I were working and my boss told someone they were a "nigger," I'd have a problem with it. None of this, however, has anything to do with Destiny, and it's beginning to annoy me how people keep trying to label me as some sort of closet racist.
You're making a distinction without a difference. How does the hatred behind the word change based on the position of the person using it?
Because people acting in public capacity represent by proxy a group of voters i.e. they sacrifice their autonomy to participate in public office. What they do off the job is of no concern of mine. Furthermore, it's disingenuous to call the use of words hatred per se. Hatred refers to a psychological attitude of active disregard for a particular thing. You cannot establish that from someone usually racially insensitively language in certain contexts (e.g. comedians, music artists). You could, however, establish that from someone who refers to, say, black people as niggers, in a completely regular, everyday, spiteful fashion on the sole merit of their being black.
It's also begging the question to ask the question you did, but I'm going to overlook it.
On May 05 2012 01:59 adrenaLinG wrote: [quote] Saying nigger and gook and all sorts of racist shit is actually a big deal and you will get into shit if you say it in any other aspect of public life, so why should a public stream by an esports personality viewed by thousands of people be any different?
It shouldn't be a big deal anywhere, unless you're some sort of publicly funded position.
Yes, because casual racism is totally cool unless you're a politician! Moron.
Whether it's cool or otherwise, it's not worth getting fired over IMO, especially if it was part of an angry outburst or obvious comedy (this was both).
That's cool, tell that to the athletes and professionals that get reprimanded for shouting "niggers" every time they lose or get mad.
I don't think it's acceptable to fire those people. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think so.
Society punishes people who used racial slurs towards people in a public arena, that doesn't always mean getting fired, although it often does.
There are tons of examples just over the last few years.
Yes...and I'm saying I disagree with that, too, unless it happens on the job or when the speaker is officially acting in some capacity as the voice of the company. Athletes calling each other 'niggers' on the field is obviously problematic given its televised to an international audience. But if some paparazzo catches them saying 'nigger' on their home practice court? Don't care at all. Hell, Destiny's stream even had a content advisory warning at the bottom.
Then you don't care about people using racial slurs, noted. Some of us think they're completely inappropriate because there is no reason to use them unless you are a trying to a denigrate a person based on race.
Depends, actually. If the President got up tomorrow and called Mexican immigrants "beaners," you can bet I'd have a problem with it. Similarly, if I were working and my boss told someone they were a "nigger," I'd have a problem with it. None of this, however, has anything to do with Destiny, and it's beginning to annoy me how people keep trying to label me as some sort of closet racist.
Don't worry, no one here is calling you a closet racist.
On May 05 2012 01:45 GloPikkle wrote: I don't really understand why people are defending Destiny given that his attitude over most of his controversial stuff has been "I do what I want". I don't think he ever didn't understand what the consequences might be, he just said that he didn't care. He doesn't really have anyone to blame but himself. Sensitive people will be sensitive, and some people will go further than others to rectify their perceived wrongs.
I think 95% of his BM is pretty funny, but if you're going to try to be edgier and more controversial, I think you also need to think about risk management. And honestly his risk management boiled down to "stfu I do what I want". Well, that's fine, but just don't expect that to be fine forever.
And yes, it IS indeed more professional to NOT be like that. Entertainers, athletes, politicians, anyone in the public eye is held to similar standards.
Because the cult of personality is a strong thing for some people. They don't understand why many people in the community think that his actions can be extremely damaging and that's why we contacted the team/sponsors.
I hate Destiny as a player and comedian, but nevertheless this was a massive abuse of community influence, and IMO what he said wasn't a big deal.
Saying nigger and gook and all sorts of racist shit is actually a big deal and you will get into shit if you say it in any other aspect of public life, so why should a public stream by an esports personality viewed by thousands of people be any different?
but its ok for rappers to this, cuz, you know, they are black?
What? I don't think anyone has made that argument.
Well how come rappers can use it in their songs? Regardless of their skin color. I'm curious.
Rappers do not use the word as an insult, that is not a trivial difference.
Here's the only way you could compare it to the 'destiny situation'.
Random rapper up on stage singing.....Heckler in the audience starts to bother him, Rapper get's frustrated so after the song he points at the guy and says "You can go fuck yourself you faggot gook"
If you don't think there would be consequences for what the 'rapper' did then you are wrong.
Same thing can be said for comedians, as much as everyone seems to love linking that Louis C.K sketch. For the people arguing about 'context' they sure seem to misunderstand it a lot.
On May 05 2012 02:06 OmiDeLta wrote: Honestly...I don't see what's wrong with people saying what they want on their own streams. I may not agree with it, but their stream is their own stream - it's not in a professional environment. Now people who act unprofessionally during TOURNAMENTS (Idra swearing at Mana during IPL3 and Naniwa's infamous probe rush immediately come to mind)...that's bad and they're the ones who should be punished. What people do on their own streams is their business. I feel like this is Orb all over again. Why are so many people out to get players who do what they want on the privacy (ha!) of their own streams? It's not like you're forced to watch their stream. A player's stream is like his home - you are a guest there. Who are you to come barging in telling him what to say and how to act? It's HIS stream, not YOURS. So some guys are jerks on their streams - what's the big deal?? As long as they're professional in public, who cares?! What they do on their own time is none of anyone's business...well, that's my two cents anyway.
A player's stream is not their home, it is public, viewed by thousands of people, and attracts as many people as television from time to time. There is already case law on this and you have no privacy protections for streaming and content you share over the internet is not considered a part of your private physical home.
That was supposed to be a metaphor. ...Similie technically, since I used "like". The point is, nobody is forced to watch it, so why is everyone getting so hot and bothered?
Yeah and nobody forces you to watch professional sports either, so why does everyone in society get bothered when athletes start saying racist things?
Because athletes in professional sports are on national television. Good comparison though.
On May 05 2012 02:00 Shiori wrote: [quote] It shouldn't be a big deal anywhere, unless you're some sort of publicly funded position.
Yes, because casual racism is totally cool unless you're a politician! Moron.
Whether it's cool or otherwise, it's not worth getting fired over IMO, especially if it was part of an angry outburst or obvious comedy (this was both).
That's cool, tell that to the athletes and professionals that get reprimanded for shouting "niggers" every time they lose or get mad.
I don't think it's acceptable to fire those people. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think so.
Society punishes people who used racial slurs towards people in a public arena, that doesn't always mean getting fired, although it often does.
There are tons of examples just over the last few years.
Yes...and I'm saying I disagree with that, too, unless it happens on the job or when the speaker is officially acting in some capacity as the voice of the company. Athletes calling each other 'niggers' on the field is obviously problematic given its televised to an international audience. But if some paparazzo catches them saying 'nigger' on their home practice court? Don't care at all. Hell, Destiny's stream even had a content advisory warning at the bottom.
Then you don't care about people using racial slurs, noted. Some of us think they're completely inappropriate because there is no reason to use them unless you are a trying to a denigrate a person based on race.
Depends, actually. If the President got up tomorrow and called Mexican immigrants "beaners," you can bet I'd have a problem with it. Similarly, if I were working and my boss told someone they were a "nigger," I'd have a problem with it. None of this, however, has anything to do with Destiny, and it's beginning to annoy me how people keep trying to label me as some sort of closet racist.
Don't worry, no one here is calling you a closet racist.
Oh, lovely. It's demonstrably false that I'm not a conscious racist, at the very least, because my political choices always reflect the candidate who is supportive of equality for all minorities, be they women, blacks, homosexuals, or transvestites. Would be awfully inconsistent of me to be racist and still choose candidates in that manner.
On May 05 2012 02:20 IMABUNNEH wrote: I wrote to Razor and Quantic both on the acquisition of Destiny, and in the recent events. I'm aware some people will throw hate at me for doing so, I don't care.
Having seen the decision that was made, I've written to both of them again, expressing happiness at their willingness to remove such harmful elements from our community, and giving them my personal support (for what it means from a nobody ) and reaffirming my support for both.
Going to sponsors is only bad if you only go to them about negatives. I message sponsors on a monthly basis positive messages of thanks from ESPORTS, so I will do so when there's something to be negative about as well.
Destiny was right though, anybody who messaged about the negatives of him should go ahead and message them a thank you or something afterwards. Being a hate train is a bad thing.
I'm with you bro. I told Razor that the issue is resolved, I appreciated their support for SC2, and that I am a customer again. Good on Destiny for not dragging it out.
On May 05 2012 02:06 OmiDeLta wrote: Honestly...I don't see what's wrong with people saying what they want on their own streams. I may not agree with it, but their stream is their own stream - it's not in a professional environment. Now people who act unprofessionally during TOURNAMENTS (Idra swearing at Mana during IPL3 and Naniwa's infamous probe rush immediately come to mind)...that's bad and they're the ones who should be punished. What people do on their own streams is their business. I feel like this is Orb all over again. Why are so many people out to get players who do what they want on the privacy (ha!) of their own streams? It's not like you're forced to watch their stream. A player's stream is like his home - you are a guest there. Who are you to come barging in telling him what to say and how to act? It's HIS stream, not YOURS. So some guys are jerks on their streams - what's the big deal?? As long as they're professional in public, who cares?! What they do on their own time is none of anyone's business...well, that's my two cents anyway.
A player's stream is not their home, it is public, viewed by thousands of people, and attracts as many people as television from time to time. There is already case law on this and you have no privacy protections for streaming and content you share over the internet is not considered a part of your private physical home.
That was supposed to be a metaphor. ...Similie technically, since I used "like". The point is, nobody is forced to watch it, so why is everyone getting so hot and bothered?
Yeah and nobody forces you to watch professional sports either, so why does everyone in society get bothered when athletes start saying racist things?
Because that's a professional environment. A stream is not. Though I suppose that could be a matter of opinion.
Actually, athletes and anyone in any professional competition can and often do lose sponsorships because of things they say in their personal lives. Someone earlier gave the example of Tiger Woods cheating on his wife, and extremely personal affair, but it still affected his professional image.
If a sponsor doesn't think a certain player upholds the image they want, it's entirely up to them to put pressure on that individual or drop their support. It's their money, just like with any other job you generally play by their rules.
On May 05 2012 02:01 adrenaLinG wrote: [quote] Yes, because casual racism is totally cool unless you're a politician! Moron.
Whether it's cool or otherwise, it's not worth getting fired over IMO, especially if it was part of an angry outburst or obvious comedy (this was both).
That's cool, tell that to the athletes and professionals that get reprimanded for shouting "niggers" every time they lose or get mad.
I don't think it's acceptable to fire those people. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think so.
Society punishes people who used racial slurs towards people in a public arena, that doesn't always mean getting fired, although it often does.
There are tons of examples just over the last few years.
Yes...and I'm saying I disagree with that, too, unless it happens on the job or when the speaker is officially acting in some capacity as the voice of the company. Athletes calling each other 'niggers' on the field is obviously problematic given its televised to an international audience. But if some paparazzo catches them saying 'nigger' on their home practice court? Don't care at all. Hell, Destiny's stream even had a content advisory warning at the bottom.
Then you don't care about people using racial slurs, noted. Some of us think they're completely inappropriate because there is no reason to use them unless you are a trying to a denigrate a person based on race.
Depends, actually. If the President got up tomorrow and called Mexican immigrants "beaners," you can bet I'd have a problem with it. Similarly, if I were working and my boss told someone they were a "nigger," I'd have a problem with it. None of this, however, has anything to do with Destiny, and it's beginning to annoy me how people keep trying to label me as some sort of closet racist.
You're making a distinction without a difference. How does the hatred behind the word change based on the position of the person using it?
Because people acting in public capacity represent by proxy a group of voters i.e. they sacrifice their autonomy to participate in public office. What they do off the job is of no concern of mine. Furthermore, it's disingenuous to call the use of words hatred per se. Hatred refers to a psychological attitude of active disregard for a particular thing. You cannot establish that from someone usually racially insensitively language in certain contexts (e.g. comedians, music artists). You could, however, establish that from someone who refers to, say, black people as niggers, in a completely regular, everyday, spiteful fashion on the sole merit of their being black.
It's also begging the question to ask the question you did, but I'm going to overlook it.
There is a blurring of the public and private spheres of life. While you consider things like your Facebook page to be private, it is actually public. If you send out racist Facebook updates, that is considered a public statement and not a private conversation.
People have lost jobs for things they have said on Facebook, and these cases have routinely been upheld.
The difference between your Facebook and Destiny streaming is that he is held to a higher standard given his numbers of audience and the fact that he is representing esports. People will cry that this is a double standard, but it is a double standard. We hold different people to different expectations. It's why we expect a lot more professionalism from our athletes and our politicians.
On May 05 2012 02:06 OmiDeLta wrote: Honestly...I don't see what's wrong with people saying what they want on their own streams. I may not agree with it, but their stream is their own stream - it's not in a professional environment. Now people who act unprofessionally during TOURNAMENTS (Idra swearing at Mana during IPL3 and Naniwa's infamous probe rush immediately come to mind)...that's bad and they're the ones who should be punished. What people do on their own streams is their business. I feel like this is Orb all over again. Why are so many people out to get players who do what they want on the privacy (ha!) of their own streams? It's not like you're forced to watch their stream. A player's stream is like his home - you are a guest there. Who are you to come barging in telling him what to say and how to act? It's HIS stream, not YOURS. So some guys are jerks on their streams - what's the big deal?? As long as they're professional in public, who cares?! What they do on their own time is none of anyone's business...well, that's my two cents anyway.
A player's stream is not their home, it is public, viewed by thousands of people, and attracts as many people as television from time to time. There is already case law on this and you have no privacy protections for streaming and content you share over the internet is not considered a part of your private physical home.
That was supposed to be a metaphor. ...Similie technically, since I used "like". The point is, nobody is forced to watch it, so why is everyone getting so hot and bothered?
Yeah and nobody forces you to watch professional sports either, so why does everyone in society get bothered when athletes start saying racist things?
Because that's a professional environment. A stream is not. Though I suppose that could be a matter of opinion.
Actually, athletes and anyone in any professional competition can and often do lose sponsorships because of things they say in their personal lives. Someone earlier gave the example of Tiger Woods cheating on his wife, and extremely personal affair, but it still affected his professional image.
If a sponsor doesn't think a certain player upholds the image they want, it's entirely up to them to put pressure on that individual or drop their support. It's their money, just like with any other job you generally play by their rules.
Yeah...point made, that's how it works, but I still don't think that's fair.
I hate this drama threads, but I'm so disappointed to see everyone acting like kids. The part of the community wanting to act like a police of morals and good behaviour and Destiny, being Destiny, acting like he is too good to write an apology, as if it were mandatory for it to be sincere. You were meant for each other, guys.
On May 05 2012 02:02 Shiori wrote: [quote] Whether it's cool or otherwise, it's not worth getting fired over IMO, especially if it was part of an angry outburst or obvious comedy (this was both).
That's cool, tell that to the athletes and professionals that get reprimanded for shouting "niggers" every time they lose or get mad.
I don't think it's acceptable to fire those people. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think so.
Society punishes people who used racial slurs towards people in a public arena, that doesn't always mean getting fired, although it often does.
There are tons of examples just over the last few years.
Yes...and I'm saying I disagree with that, too, unless it happens on the job or when the speaker is officially acting in some capacity as the voice of the company. Athletes calling each other 'niggers' on the field is obviously problematic given its televised to an international audience. But if some paparazzo catches them saying 'nigger' on their home practice court? Don't care at all. Hell, Destiny's stream even had a content advisory warning at the bottom.
Then you don't care about people using racial slurs, noted. Some of us think they're completely inappropriate because there is no reason to use them unless you are a trying to a denigrate a person based on race.
Depends, actually. If the President got up tomorrow and called Mexican immigrants "beaners," you can bet I'd have a problem with it. Similarly, if I were working and my boss told someone they were a "nigger," I'd have a problem with it. None of this, however, has anything to do with Destiny, and it's beginning to annoy me how people keep trying to label me as some sort of closet racist.
You're making a distinction without a difference. How does the hatred behind the word change based on the position of the person using it?
Because people acting in public capacity represent by proxy a group of voters i.e. they sacrifice their autonomy to participate in public office. What they do off the job is of no concern of mine. Furthermore, it's disingenuous to call the use of words hatred per se. Hatred refers to a psychological attitude of active disregard for a particular thing. You cannot establish that from someone usually racially insensitively language in certain contexts (e.g. comedians, music artists). You could, however, establish that from someone who refers to, say, black people as niggers, in a completely regular, everyday, spiteful fashion on the sole merit of their being black.
It's also begging the question to ask the question you did, but I'm going to overlook it.
There is a blurring of the public and private spheres of life. While you consider things like your Facebook page to be private, it is actually public. If you send out racist Facebook updates, that is considered a public statement and not a private conversation.
People have lost jobs for things they have said on Facebook, and these cases have routinely been upheld.
The difference between your Facebook and Destiny streaming is that he is held to a higher standard given his numbers of audience and the fact that he is representing esports. People will cry that this is a double standard, but it is a double standard. We hold different people to different expectations. It's why we expect a lot more professionalism from our athletes and our politicians.
You seem to be missing my point. We hold people to double standards not because there's anything terribly meritorious about the double standard, but because it makes company X more money to just sack the poor fool than do PR damage control. It's literally that simple. While, as I said, I understand Quantic's decision to sack Destiny, on a purely moral level I see nothing particularly offensive about his behaviour beyond the immorality that accompanies all malicious insulting (which virtually every Sc2 player is guilty of) because I don't think the use of a racial slur represents any serious racial prejudice in Destiny's character. When you insult someone, you aim to hurt them. That's the sin, right there. It's not how you say it or how successfully you hurt them; it's what you mean to do. And in that regard, all people who insult other people are equally guilty.
I'd like to see a world in which people react to behaviour that offends them not by throwing a tantrum until it's removed from their sight (provided this behaviour doesn't actually infringe upon anyone's rights) but rather by simply voting with their wallet and not contributing to the offensive person. I mean, with Destiny removed, can anyone really say a tangible victory against actual anti-Asian racism has been achieved? I think you'd be pretty hard to say so. Just because you make someone slightly less vocal doesn't mean you change the person behind the word (who, in this case, is probably quite harmless).
Just because you're offended by something that anyone says.... that doesn't make it offensive. If your world is one in which you are offended by a word, any string of words, then that is YOUR PROBLEM.
This whole mentality of people taking something that is their problem and pushing it onto the majority is everything that is wrong with this world. People think they're entitled to live in this pitch perfect fantasy paradise utopia where everything around them is clean and perfect. And when I started typing this I hadn't already made the connection but now as I do its pretty clear who else in history wanted to live in a pure clean and perfect society no matter who he took down on the way to get there.
It really is all the same thing. When we say how dangerous this "lynch mob" mentality is I'm not sure everyone understands how dangerously similar to the actual metaphor it is. Like I said before when you feel as tho you have the right to dictate what lives and what dies in this community how is that any different from an old KKK meeting where they decided to burn a church because they thought the blacks were hurting the community.
On May 05 2012 02:06 OmiDeLta wrote: Honestly...I don't see what's wrong with people saying what they want on their own streams. I may not agree with it, but their stream is their own stream - it's not in a professional environment. Now people who act unprofessionally during TOURNAMENTS (Idra swearing at Mana during IPL3 and Naniwa's infamous probe rush immediately come to mind)...that's bad and they're the ones who should be punished. What people do on their own streams is their business. I feel like this is Orb all over again. Why are so many people out to get players who do what they want on the privacy (ha!) of their own streams? It's not like you're forced to watch their stream. A player's stream is like his home - you are a guest there. Who are you to come barging in telling him what to say and how to act? It's HIS stream, not YOURS. So some guys are jerks on their streams - what's the big deal?? As long as they're professional in public, who cares?! What they do on their own time is none of anyone's business...well, that's my two cents anyway.
A player's stream is not their home, it is public, viewed by thousands of people, and attracts as many people as television from time to time. There is already case law on this and you have no privacy protections for streaming and content you share over the internet is not considered a part of your private physical home.
That was supposed to be a metaphor. ...Similie technically, since I used "like". The point is, nobody is forced to watch it, so why is everyone getting so hot and bothered?
Yeah and nobody forces you to watch professional sports either, so why does everyone in society get bothered when athletes start saying racist things?
Because athletes in professional sports are on national television. Good comparison though.
You realize this applies to just about any job as well right? Not just professional sports. If your employer finds you saying racist or bigoted things on Facebook on any other public forum, they may very well fire you.
If Razor is providing Quantic money or support, and Quantic wants to keep that money and support they play by their rules. Ultimately, if Destiny doesn't want to play by Razor's rules as a member on Quantic, then he loses that financial support. It's just like any other job.
On May 05 2012 02:04 adrenaLinG wrote: [quote] That's cool, tell that to the athletes and professionals that get reprimanded for shouting "niggers" every time they lose or get mad.
I don't think it's acceptable to fire those people. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think so.
Society punishes people who used racial slurs towards people in a public arena, that doesn't always mean getting fired, although it often does.
There are tons of examples just over the last few years.
Yes...and I'm saying I disagree with that, too, unless it happens on the job or when the speaker is officially acting in some capacity as the voice of the company. Athletes calling each other 'niggers' on the field is obviously problematic given its televised to an international audience. But if some paparazzo catches them saying 'nigger' on their home practice court? Don't care at all. Hell, Destiny's stream even had a content advisory warning at the bottom.
Then you don't care about people using racial slurs, noted. Some of us think they're completely inappropriate because there is no reason to use them unless you are a trying to a denigrate a person based on race.
Depends, actually. If the President got up tomorrow and called Mexican immigrants "beaners," you can bet I'd have a problem with it. Similarly, if I were working and my boss told someone they were a "nigger," I'd have a problem with it. None of this, however, has anything to do with Destiny, and it's beginning to annoy me how people keep trying to label me as some sort of closet racist.
You're making a distinction without a difference. How does the hatred behind the word change based on the position of the person using it?
Because people acting in public capacity represent by proxy a group of voters i.e. they sacrifice their autonomy to participate in public office. What they do off the job is of no concern of mine. Furthermore, it's disingenuous to call the use of words hatred per se. Hatred refers to a psychological attitude of active disregard for a particular thing. You cannot establish that from someone usually racially insensitively language in certain contexts (e.g. comedians, music artists). You could, however, establish that from someone who refers to, say, black people as niggers, in a completely regular, everyday, spiteful fashion on the sole merit of their being black.
It's also begging the question to ask the question you did, but I'm going to overlook it.
There is a blurring of the public and private spheres of life. While you consider things like your Facebook page to be private, it is actually public. If you send out racist Facebook updates, that is considered a public statement and not a private conversation.
People have lost jobs for things they have said on Facebook, and these cases have routinely been upheld.
The difference between your Facebook and Destiny streaming is that he is held to a higher standard given his numbers of audience and the fact that he is representing esports. People will cry that this is a double standard, but it is a double standard. We hold different people to different expectations. It's why we expect a lot more professionalism from our athletes and our politicians.
You seem to be missing my point. We hold people to double standards not because there's anything terribly meritorious about the double standard, but because it makes company X more money to just sack the poor fool than do PR damage control. It's literally that simple. While, as I said, I understand Quantic's decision to sack Destiny, on a purely moral level I see nothing particularly offensive about his behaviour beyond the immorality that accompanies all malicious insulting (which virtually every Sc2 player is guilty of) because I don't think the use of a racial slur represents any serious racial prejudice in Destiny's character. When you insult someone, you aim to hurt them. That's the sin, right there. It's not how you say it or how successfully you hurt them; it's what you mean to do. And in that regard, all people who insult other people are equally guilty.
On May 05 2012 02:04 adrenaLinG wrote: [quote] That's cool, tell that to the athletes and professionals that get reprimanded for shouting "niggers" every time they lose or get mad.
I don't think it's acceptable to fire those people. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think so.
Society punishes people who used racial slurs towards people in a public arena, that doesn't always mean getting fired, although it often does.
There are tons of examples just over the last few years.
Yes...and I'm saying I disagree with that, too, unless it happens on the job or when the speaker is officially acting in some capacity as the voice of the company. Athletes calling each other 'niggers' on the field is obviously problematic given its televised to an international audience. But if some paparazzo catches them saying 'nigger' on their home practice court? Don't care at all. Hell, Destiny's stream even had a content advisory warning at the bottom.
Then you don't care about people using racial slurs, noted. Some of us think they're completely inappropriate because there is no reason to use them unless you are a trying to a denigrate a person based on race.
Depends, actually. If the President got up tomorrow and called Mexican immigrants "beaners," you can bet I'd have a problem with it. Similarly, if I were working and my boss told someone they were a "nigger," I'd have a problem with it. None of this, however, has anything to do with Destiny, and it's beginning to annoy me how people keep trying to label me as some sort of closet racist.
You're making a distinction without a difference. How does the hatred behind the word change based on the position of the person using it?
Because people acting in public capacity represent by proxy a group of voters i.e. they sacrifice their autonomy to participate in public office. What they do off the job is of no concern of mine. Furthermore, it's disingenuous to call the use of words hatred per se. Hatred refers to a psychological attitude of active disregard for a particular thing. You cannot establish that from someone usually racially insensitively language in certain contexts (e.g. comedians, music artists). You could, however, establish that from someone who refers to, say, black people as niggers, in a completely regular, everyday, spiteful fashion on the sole merit of their being black.
It's also begging the question to ask the question you did, but I'm going to overlook it.
There is a blurring of the public and private spheres of life. While you consider things like your Facebook page to be private, it is actually public. If you send out racist Facebook updates, that is considered a public statement and not a private conversation.
People have lost jobs for things they have said on Facebook, and these cases have routinely been upheld.
The difference between your Facebook and Destiny streaming is that he is held to a higher standard given his numbers of audience and the fact that he is representing esports. People will cry that this is a double standard, but it is a double standard. We hold different people to different expectations. It's why we expect a lot more professionalism from our athletes and our politicians.
You seem to be missing my point. We hold people to double standards not because there's anything terribly meritorious about the double standard, but because it makes company X more money to just sack the poor fool than do PR damage control. It's literally that simple. While, as I said, I understand Quantic's decision to sack Destiny, on a purely moral level I see nothing particularly offensive about his behaviour beyond the immorality that accompanies all malicious insulting (which virtually every Sc2 player is guilty of) because I don't think the use of a racial slur represents any serious racial prejudice in Destiny's character. When you insult someone, you aim to hurt them. That's the sin, right there. It's not how you say it or how successfully you hurt them; it's what you mean to do. And in that regard, all people who insult other people are equally guilty.
I'd like to see a world in which people react to behaviour that offends them not by throwing a tantrum until it's removed from their sight (provided this behaviour doesn't actually infringe upon anyone's rights) but rather by simply voting with their wallet and not contributing to the offensive person.
Speak for yourself. It's about respect, decency , and little common sense. If you see nothing 'offensive' about the way destiny acts then you are blind. He says the shit he does PURELY to offend somebody (because he lost a game of starcraft) as if that merit's his behavior.
Are people really still arguing over linguistics and what's racist and what isn't here? The bottom line is Destiny was using language that could easily be construed as "hate speech" on the internet in front of 4k people. If he wants to do that, he can't expect a team to carry him - it's way too risky. Even if the initial complaints hadn't began on TL there's a good chance somebody, somewhere on the internet (it's a big place) would've seen his stream and complained. Especially considering his viewers seem to somewhat on the younger side, I wouldn't have been surprised if a parent somewhere made a complaint if they accidentally saw the stream or overheard it. Destiny's choice to continue saying all this shit risked not only his career on Quantic, but all of his teammates careers with his team, and all other players who are on teams sponsored by Razer. I don't think people quite grasp how ridiculously selfish it was for him to refuse to apologize, or to not use racist words on stream. If I were a player on a team sponsored by Razer I'd have been furious that he would put my income at risk over a few stupid words that most people are capable of avoiding in the public domain.
On May 05 2012 01:45 GloPikkle wrote: I don't really understand why people are defending Destiny given that his attitude over most of his controversial stuff has been "I do what I want". I don't think he ever didn't understand what the consequences might be, he just said that he didn't care. He doesn't really have anyone to blame but himself. Sensitive people will be sensitive, and some people will go further than others to rectify their perceived wrongs.
I think 95% of his BM is pretty funny, but if you're going to try to be edgier and more controversial, I think you also need to think about risk management. And honestly his risk management boiled down to "stfu I do what I want". Well, that's fine, but just don't expect that to be fine forever.
And yes, it IS indeed more professional to NOT be like that. Entertainers, athletes, politicians, anyone in the public eye is held to similar standards.
Because the cult of personality is a strong thing for some people. They don't understand why many people in the community think that his actions can be extremely damaging and that's why we contacted the team/sponsors.
I hate Destiny as a player and comedian, but nevertheless this was a massive abuse of community influence, and IMO what he said wasn't a big deal.
Saying nigger and gook and all sorts of racist shit is actually a big deal and you will get into shit if you say it in any other aspect of public life, so why should a public stream by an esports personality viewed by thousands of people be any different?
but its ok for rappers to this, cuz, you know, they are black?
What? I don't think anyone has made that argument.
Well how come rappers can use it in their songs? Regardless of their skin color. I'm curious.
Rappers do not use the word as an insult, that is not a trivial difference.
it doesn't matter if a white person said "what up nigga" it would still be an insult. Its only an insult because you're not black.
I think it would be better for pro's to not stream or post on TL at all. It is obviously opening yourself up too a mob action that will result in hurting your professional carreer. There are just too many random people that will take the chance to jab a pro, or if they can actually harm him/her, do so.
I bet this is why Korean pro's and pro's in general always have cookie-cutter answers, and are boring to interview and such.
EPT
) and reaffirming my support for both.
