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Keep this civil, guys |
On May 05 2012 06:07 ProBot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:04 adrenaLinG wrote:On May 05 2012 06:03 ProBot wrote:On May 05 2012 06:02 Kimaker wrote:On May 05 2012 06:00 dAPhREAk wrote:On May 05 2012 05:52 ProBot wrote:On May 05 2012 05:33 Leth0 wrote:On May 05 2012 05:30 ProBot wrote:On May 05 2012 05:15 BlueLanterna wrote:On May 05 2012 05:12 divito wrote:
[quote]
I'd rather see freedom to express yourself however you want, and a community that understands individuality. I abhor where we are headed as a community, where the mass of complainers suck the personality out of players and casters, and there ends up being a debate thread over every little action.
I find it incredibly disturbing that people that can't handle things psychologically are driving the nature of things in this community (and in life in general), because it breeds the status quo. We will slowly lose logical and critical thinking when we're programming younger people to jump at the sight of certain words, phrases, or actions without concern for the context, history or analytical aspects associated with that that they're whining about. Do you understand that there is a difference between expressing yourself how you want, and using language which is inflammatory to an entire group of people? If you really think not being able to say gook and nigger is robbing people of their personality, get out of this community and get some psychiatric help. I completely disagree with you. People are using these certain words and phrases precisely because they DONT understand the context, or the history behind what they're whining about. We're talking about the same language the same group of peoples use to describe themselves in every second sentence right? And it seems like every other racial group in the world can use as well (Listen to asian / hispanic rappers they drop the n bomb just as much as black cats ) .... However whenever a white person uses it regardless of context it's racist? That sure makes sense to me. No , but when a kid gets mad over a video game and resorts to calling his opponent a racial slur then he is no better than the racists who use the word in the same inflammatory manner. And who are you to say whether he's no better than a racist or not? The bigger question should even be why does anyone ever care what the dude says on his stream in the first place? Like i haven't even read 1 argument as to why anyone even cares? Actually lets see if he's done anything to show or prove he's racist. Has destiny called a black player a nigger on stream? No ok then ... well how about calling someone with mental disabilities a retard? Hrmmm nope again. Well shit maybe he's actually called a homosexual a faggot then? Wait he hasn't? Well god damn. Has he raised money for charity benefiting mostly non white people? Well yeah, he has actually ( funny how nobody actually talks about this one ... go figure there) Mother fucker must be racist!!! To be fair he has said those words out of frustration, but Idra, machine, and incontrol at some point have used the word gay or fag on stream at some point ... yet nobody's e-mailing their sponsors bitching ... funny how that works, hell idra gave chris the finger and yelled "fuck you" at him at mlg that had young kids in the crowd .... nobodies e-mailing sponsors bitching about that either. If your complaining about destiny but not a good 60% of pro gamers out there, or the ones i previously mentioned then your a fucking hypocrite and have business bitching about anything. he called a korean player a "gook." edit: ninja'd by adrenaling Which, as an asian, I find rather humorous ^_^ High five to common sense Racism is common sense. You heard it here folks, from the destiny white knights at teamliquid dot net Not so much, more of the common sense to see past the words and to actually get the meaning. A for effort tho, it was almost clever. My fault for not spelling it out for you tho.
The meaning? What was the meaning here? To me, it looks like he got mad at an Asian guy and called him a 'gook' because he was Asian.
That is the context here. A racial slur hurled in order to cause harm.
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On May 05 2012 06:11 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:08 BoZiffer wrote:
Scenario question: Destiny is a representative of Team Quantic when he streams. He is, in effect "working" for them at that moment in time, right? Maybe he's not contractually, not sure. Lets say I go into a Best Buy and the salesman makes an insulting/racist/demeaning remark to me while he is actively employed. What actions do I have to seek resolution?
Leave the store, or ask for another salesperson. Or ignore it and let him help you anyway.
I'd report it to their manager to be honest. I'd think they'd want to know about language or remarks of their employees.
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On May 05 2012 06:09 BroOd wrote:
Reading some of these posts feels like having a thumb pressed into my eye. So many bizarre tirades about cultural implications, word meanings, destiny's intent, society's prudeness, and any other conceivable way you could imagine to spin this into something that misses the point.
Everything about this situation was summed up, for me, in that telling screen shot. Destiny was angry and frustrated that he lost to what he felt was inferior play, and as a punishment or retaliation for that, he had to make the other person feel that same anger and frustration. So, he reached for what he thought of first -- an Asian slur for someone with an Asian screen name -- in the hope that it would in some way hurt his opponent.
Now, Destiny may not hate Asian people, or even dislike them. But when you use loaded, historically racist words, soaked in years of shit, you can't hang them out on the line and expect everyone to be fine with the smell. Those words have hurt people in the past and continue to hurt people today. Pretending that using them casually (like when you want to anger an anonymous Asian person so you call him a "gook") somehow dilutes their power makes it seem like you're drawing your philosophy from a half-understood George Carlin bit, and not from the pragmatic, real world we all live in together.
This hallmark-card notion of "things can only hurt you if you let them" is ludicrous and everyone here has first hand evidence of that. We've all been irrationally mad before. We all have emotional buttons that someone, somewhere, could push and hurt us. Some of those buttons are personal and hidden deep inside, but some of them are worn on our sleeves, or even deeper, in our skin. It's clear that some people in this thread view that very real hurt as just collateral damage in their self-righteous war on the windmills of political correctness.
Destiny isn't tearing down any walls here. We're not advancing towards a new, more enlightened stance on race issues by integrating institutionalized racist terms into our every day vocabulary. We're just constantly reminding each other of how shitty we used to be, and how shitty we can still be today.
I think the worst part of Destiny is probably his fanboys -- they are by far the worst parts of the esports community, as evidenced by this thread.
They are the ones that free-ride off of Destiny's half-assed philosophy of language (which any academic that studies this for a living will tell you is garbage), don't care about the actual racism/inequality issues (even Destiny cares about the plight of the people worse off, as evidenced by his charity work), and just watch his stream because they think its funny and hilarious that hes throwing around nigger gook rape faggot all day.
The fanboys are infinitely worse than Destiny himself.
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"On May 05 2012 04:28 Black knight wrote:
Get Idra fired. He called both July and Ensnare faggots, amongst everyone on his stream, and constantly calls people retards, even in live showmatches.
Get Huk fired. He tweeted "nigga".
Get Incontrol fired. He ridiculed a porn star about her profession to the point of tears on the most prestigious public sc2 podcast.
Go ahead, white knights. Do your fucking jobs.
User was banned for this post."
What i want to know is why Black Knight got Banned for bringing up valid points. If we're going to start lynching bitches for inappropriate language and behaviour might as well get them all to stay consistent right?
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On May 05 2012 06:12 MetalSlug wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:06 BlueLanterna wrote:On May 05 2012 06:05 jxx wrote:
Everyone defending this guy, I would ask: What would happen if Destiny were a football/basketball player or whatever, imagine him behaving like that in a professional environment. What would happen?
I bet everyone here wants e-sports to be taken seriously, but when it comes to professionalism and being responsible people seem to forget about it, and then they bitch about not being taken seriously. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT TURN OFF THE STREAM You can not turn off who you meet on ladder. Which is what happend to OP. He won a game on ladder and was therefor accused of being a gook.
+ Show Spoiler +I agree with you 
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I agree that this incident was not isolated.... his whole stream is pervaded by immature jokes, using sexism racism homophobia.....in an exaggerated sense.... AS A JOKE. No one truly believes Destiny is a real racist, the argument is whether the wordage, regardless of if it is coming from an actual racist, is something that we as a community should allow from sponsored players on featured streams.
And to that I say, he's popular for a reason. If you don't like it, fine, but that popularity means that tons of people disagree with you.
I think what happened with Destiny was for the best, because now all the politically correct, don't-say-that-i'm-offended pansies can have their cleaner professional scene sans the witch Destiny, and Destiny will continue to entertain his fans and attract the disenchanted souls and those who can appreciate snarky and sometimes off-color humor.
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On May 05 2012 06:14 ProBot wrote:
"On May 05 2012 04:28 Black knight wrote:
Get Idra fired. He called both July and Ensnare faggots, amongst everyone on his stream, and constantly calls people retards, even in live showmatches.
Get Huk fired. He tweeted "nigga".
Get Incontrol fired. He ridiculed a porn star about her profession to the point of tears on the most prestigious public sc2 podcast.
Go ahead, white knights. Do your fucking jobs.
User was banned for this post."
What i want to know is why Black Knight got Banned for bringing up valid points. If we're going to start lynching bitches for inappropriate language and behaviour might as well get them all to stay consistent right?
he was banned for being a previously banned user.
Black knight was just banned by Empyrean.
That account was created on 2012-05-05 04:24:37 and had 1 posts.
Reason: Previously banned user.
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On May 05 2012 06:14 ProBot wrote:
"On May 05 2012 04:28 Black knight wrote:
Get Idra fired. He called both July and Ensnare faggots, amongst everyone on his stream, and constantly calls people retards, even in live showmatches.
Get Huk fired. He tweeted "nigga".
Get Incontrol fired. He ridiculed a porn star about her profession to the point of tears on the most prestigious public sc2 podcast.
Go ahead, white knights. Do your fucking jobs.
User was banned for this post."
What i want to know is why Black Knight got Banned for bringing up valid points. If we're going to start lynching bitches for inappropriate language and behaviour might as well get them all to stay consistent right?
Indeed, why has the community not done anything over this?
The names he named are MUCH bigger personalities than Destiny, and therefore should have a MUCH larger impact on what they in terms of the community.
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On May 05 2012 06:01 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 05:56 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 05:48 Tehs Tehklz wrote:On May 05 2012 05:45 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 05:42 IMABUNNEH wrote:
Apparently having morals, and pursuing your morals to a conclusion, is now looked down on as being self righteous or elitist? YES, damn it. You don't get to force others to conform to your beliefs! Yo, no one forced him to do anything. How can you say that? I mean... no, no one went to his home and physically forced him to things. But this whole situation is about people attempting to force him to comply with their wishes, or else face whatever consequences they are able to impose on him. If I point a gun at you and demand your wallet, would you say that I'm not forcing you to give me your wallet, because you still get to choose your actions in that situation? Let's not turn this into an argument of semantics. Perhaps my response should have been "You don't get to attempt to force others to conform with your beliefs." Is that clearer? Quantic and Team Liquid are privately owned organizations. They can force Destiny to conform to whatever standards they want as long as he wants to continue being a part of them. If he doesn't want to, then he can feel free to go stream somewhere else or play for another team.
Yes, Quantic has every right to make demands from Destiny. And Team Liquid has every right to control the speech used on their forums. That is not what I was referring to.
What I was referring to are the TL forum members who attempt to force streamers to follow their belief system of what is appropriate, under the threat of "we'll complain to sponsors and do whatever we can to fuck up your employment situation if you don't comply with us".
That is what is not OK. Members of the public have the choice to watch Destiny's stream or ignore it. They should not have power beyond that.
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On May 05 2012 06:14 adrenaLinG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:09 BroOd wrote:
Reading some of these posts feels like having a thumb pressed into my eye. So many bizarre tirades about cultural implications, word meanings, destiny's intent, society's prudeness, and any other conceivable way you could imagine to spin this into something that misses the point.
Everything about this situation was summed up, for me, in that telling screen shot. Destiny was angry and frustrated that he lost to what he felt was inferior play, and as a punishment or retaliation for that, he had to make the other person feel that same anger and frustration. So, he reached for what he thought of first -- an Asian slur for someone with an Asian screen name -- in the hope that it would in some way hurt his opponent.
Now, Destiny may not hate Asian people, or even dislike them. But when you use loaded, historically racist words, soaked in years of shit, you can't hang them out on the line and expect everyone to be fine with the smell. Those words have hurt people in the past and continue to hurt people today. Pretending that using them casually (like when you want to anger an anonymous Asian person so you call him a "gook") somehow dilutes their power makes it seem like you're drawing your philosophy from a half-understood George Carlin bit, and not from the pragmatic, real world we all live in together.
This hallmark-card notion of "things can only hurt you if you let them" is ludicrous and everyone here has first hand evidence of that. We've all been irrationally mad before. We all have emotional buttons that someone, somewhere, could push and hurt us. Some of those buttons are personal and hidden deep inside, but some of them are worn on our sleeves, or even deeper, in our skin. It's clear that some people in this thread view that very real hurt as just collateral damage in their self-righteous war on the windmills of political correctness.
Destiny isn't tearing down any walls here. We're not advancing towards a new, more enlightened stance on race issues by integrating institutionalized racist terms into our every day vocabulary. We're just constantly reminding each other of how shitty we used to be, and how shitty we can still be today. I think the worst part of Destiny is probably his fanboys -- they are by far the worst parts of the esports community, as evidenced by this thread. They are the ones that free-ride off of Destiny's half-assed philosophy of language (which any academic that studies this for a living will tell you is garbage), don't care about the actual racism/inequality issues (even Destiny cares about the plight of the people worse off, as evidenced by his charity work), and just watch his stream because they think its funny and hilarious that hes throwing around nigger gook rape faggot all day. The fanboys are infinitely worse than Destiny himself.
"hey are the ones that free-ride off of Destiny's half-assed philosophy of language (which any academic that studies this for a living will tell you is garbage), don't care about the actual racism/inequality issues (even Destiny cares about the plight of the people worse off, as evidenced by his charity work), and just watch his stream because they think its funny and hilarious that hes throwing around nigger gook rape faggot all day."
It's called integrity look it up. You could use some.
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On May 05 2012 06:12 Ponera wrote:
What a horrible precedent this sets. Player does something you don't agree with? Go over his teams head and cry to mommy (sponsors). This has me worried.
Player consistently uses homophobic, racist, anti-semitic and other language. I buy products from a company who are financially supporting said thing.
I tell said company that if they continue to support homophobia, racism, rape analogies and antisemitism I won't buy their products anymore.
This sets a bad precedent that consumers can influence what bad practices a company supports?
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On May 05 2012 06:14 ProBot wrote:
"On May 05 2012 04:28 Black knight wrote:
Get Idra fired. He called both July and Ensnare faggots, amongst everyone on his stream, and constantly calls people retards, even in live showmatches.
Get Huk fired. He tweeted "nigga".
Get Incontrol fired. He ridiculed a porn star about her profession to the point of tears on the most prestigious public sc2 podcast.
Go ahead, white knights. Do your fucking jobs.
User was banned for this post."
What i want to know is why Black Knight got Banned for bringing up valid points. If we're going to start lynching bitches for inappropriate language and behaviour might as well get them all to stay consistent right?
He was a PBU. That means he has made other accounts with the same IP and already been banned. It wasn't for his sentiments in this thread. Even if he was right.
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On May 05 2012 06:14 StarStrider wrote:
I agree that this incident was not isolated.... his whole stream is pervaded by immature jokes, using sexism racism homophobia.....in an exaggerated sense.... AS A JOKE. No one truly believes Destiny is a real racist, the argument is whether the wordage, regardless of if it is coming from an actual racist, is something that we as a community should allow from sponsored players on featured streams.
And to that I say, he's popular for a reason. If you don't like it, fine, but that popularity means that tons of people disagree with you.
I think what happened with Destiny was for the best, because now all the politically correct, don't-say-that-i'm-offended pansies can have their cleaner professional scene sans the witch Destiny, and Destiny will continue to entertain his fans and attract the disenchanted souls and those who can appreciate snarky and sometimes off-color humor.
What was the joke here? "You are of Asian decent and that is a bad thing, hahahahah!"
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On May 05 2012 06:12 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:08 BoZiffer wrote:On May 05 2012 05:30 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 05:18 BlueLanterna wrote:On May 05 2012 05:15 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 05:09 BlueLanterna wrote:On May 05 2012 05:08 StarStrider wrote:
Let's call this what it is people. It was a bunch of jelly butthurt basement dwellers from /vg/ who are trying to ruin him. For no other reason than they just want to watch his career burn. They get nothing but the satisfaction of control out of it, and they couldn't give a flying fuck about the community or esports or the backlash that going to sponsors could cause to anyone else in the scene.
Most people who believe in esports would not be stupid enough to ignore the major repurcussions that would be felt by his team and esports in general from trying to get sponsors pulled. These are trolls of the 4chan scene doing what they do best. Fucking people over with no regard for logic or consequences. You're not saying it's a bad thing that a high profile streamer who used frequent ignorant hate speech is no longer on a professional team are you? Why do you believe that no gamer who uses bad language should be allowed on a professional team? Why are professional gamers on teams required to conform to your standards while you get to be the internet morality police? Why do you get to have control over others? You're making a strawman argument as well. I never said gamers who use bad language shouldn't be allowed on a professional team, I said those who use hate speech, even in jest, shouldn't be supported. LOL "Why do you get to have control over others?" It has nothing to do with what I as an individual wants, it's what society deems as acceptable. I completely agree that they ----SHOULDN'T BE SUPPORTED----. That is exactly what should have happened to Destiny. All of the people offended by his language should have stopped watching his games and stopped tuning in to his stream and stopped supporting him in any way. But there is an enormous, gigantic difference between "shouldn't be supported" and "should be forced to conform to our standards or else we're going to fuck with him". A large portion of society has deemed Destiny's actions to be unacceptable. Great. That's completely fine. But since when is it OK to get back at him by going to his employer and trying to get him fired? Since when is it ok to demand that he conform to your rules, or else you're going to take revenge against him? That is called "trying to have control over others" and there's no way to deny that. I find it to be extremely inappropriate and completely uncalled for. The correct course of action is "if you don't like it, don't watch it" but that fact is being overlooked by many people. Scenario question: Destiny is a representative of Team Quantic when he streams. He is, in effect "working" for them at that moment in time, right? Maybe he's not contractually, not sure. Lets say I go into a Best Buy and the salesman makes an insulting/racist/demeaning remark to me while he is actively employed. What actions do I have to seek resolution? I can talk to the individual - which may correct the problem on the spot. I can speak to his Supervisors. Now whether or not I demand to the Supervisor for him to be fired or not, or just counseled on the issue, is really up to the employer. I would say that complaining about something that isn't acceptable is fine action. That is all that an individual can actively do. Its up the employers to make the final call. That scenario is totally irrelevant. Best Buy employee is selling a product and representing a company who just sells products. Destiny is essentially working in entertainment. His job is to obtain viewers and keep them entertained for as long as he is on air. Destiny is selling himself. If you don't like his sales pitch, you can go elsewhere, no?
Ok, then we'll try another... what about Kobe Bryant using derogatory terms towards homosexuals in the middle of a basketball game on national television. Kobe is selling entertainment, yet the NBA fined him 100,000 bills because of the insensitive remarks. No different. Final discipline up to the employer.
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On May 05 2012 06:14 ProBot wrote:
"On May 05 2012 04:28 Black knight wrote:
Get Idra fired. He called both July and Ensnare faggots, amongst everyone on his stream, and constantly calls people retards, even in live showmatches.
Get Huk fired. He tweeted "nigga".
Get Incontrol fired. He ridiculed a porn star about her profession to the point of tears on the most prestigious public sc2 podcast.
Go ahead, white knights. Do your fucking jobs.
User was banned for this post."
What i want to know is why Black Knight got Banned for bringing up valid points. If we're going to start lynching bitches for inappropriate language and behaviour might as well get them all to stay consistent right?
Idra has been banned multiple times and reprimanded by the owner of EG, Incontrol has not said anything on the level of directly calling an asian person a "gook" on stream, and Huk saying "nigga" is not on the same level as "nigger" (as much as I don't like that word either). Grow up.
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I hope people keep going to sponsors to complain about players. It seems to be the most effective way to get something done. I dont give a shit if it's "hurting esports". Maybe this will teach all the teams out there to 'screen' their players before they recruite them, instead of grab players souly based on popularity or results, so nothing like this happens. I will for sure email sponsors if/when I have a problem with what a player says or does.
Also, I hope this shows all the "pro" players out there that shit doesnt go unpunished or unnoticed anymore.
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On May 05 2012 06:12 Ponera wrote:
What a horrible precedent this sets. Player does something you don't agree with? Go over his teams head and cry to mommy (sponsors). This has me worried.
From what I can tell the only precedent is hate mongering bigots lose their privileges. Is there something else I missed?
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On May 05 2012 06:08 ApBuLLet wrote:
I don't agree with people going to the sponsors about these sorts of matters because in reality, we're digging our own grave in terms of the life eSports, but I think that teams need to start strongly considering the personalities of the people they are hiring to play and represent them because obviously their behavior matters to big name sponsors, as we have seen with the Orb and Destiny situations.
I don't have a problem with Destiny being Destiny, he does his thing and makes money by entertaining through his stream and that is fine, but people like that (those who cannot or will not behave professionally) should not be on a team. Professional organizations require professionals who will act the part in terms of their public behavior, and Destiny is just not a professional person.
Props to Destiny for leaving the team by his own will though, hopefully that helps ease the tension between Quantic and their sponsors, which doesn't sound like it is going too well at this point.
NAILED IT! It sounds like Quantic also really tried to work with the situation and that they didn't want to drop him either.
Whats sad is that this result would have most likely been the same even if Destiny had come to the community on bended knee praying for forgiveness.
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On May 05 2012 06:16 ProBot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 06:14 adrenaLinG wrote:On May 05 2012 06:09 BroOd wrote:
Reading some of these posts feels like having a thumb pressed into my eye. So many bizarre tirades about cultural implications, word meanings, destiny's intent, society's prudeness, and any other conceivable way you could imagine to spin this into something that misses the point.
Everything about this situation was summed up, for me, in that telling screen shot. Destiny was angry and frustrated that he lost to what he felt was inferior play, and as a punishment or retaliation for that, he had to make the other person feel that same anger and frustration. So, he reached for what he thought of first -- an Asian slur for someone with an Asian screen name -- in the hope that it would in some way hurt his opponent.
Now, Destiny may not hate Asian people, or even dislike them. But when you use loaded, historically racist words, soaked in years of shit, you can't hang them out on the line and expect everyone to be fine with the smell. Those words have hurt people in the past and continue to hurt people today. Pretending that using them casually (like when you want to anger an anonymous Asian person so you call him a "gook") somehow dilutes their power makes it seem like you're drawing your philosophy from a half-understood George Carlin bit, and not from the pragmatic, real world we all live in together.
This hallmark-card notion of "things can only hurt you if you let them" is ludicrous and everyone here has first hand evidence of that. We've all been irrationally mad before. We all have emotional buttons that someone, somewhere, could push and hurt us. Some of those buttons are personal and hidden deep inside, but some of them are worn on our sleeves, or even deeper, in our skin. It's clear that some people in this thread view that very real hurt as just collateral damage in their self-righteous war on the windmills of political correctness.
Destiny isn't tearing down any walls here. We're not advancing towards a new, more enlightened stance on race issues by integrating institutionalized racist terms into our every day vocabulary. We're just constantly reminding each other of how shitty we used to be, and how shitty we can still be today. I think the worst part of Destiny is probably his fanboys -- they are by far the worst parts of the esports community, as evidenced by this thread. They are the ones that free-ride off of Destiny's half-assed philosophy of language (which any academic that studies this for a living will tell you is garbage), don't care about the actual racism/inequality issues (even Destiny cares about the plight of the people worse off, as evidenced by his charity work), and just watch his stream because they think its funny and hilarious that hes throwing around nigger gook rape faggot all day. The fanboys are infinitely worse than Destiny himself. "hey are the ones that free-ride off of Destiny's half-assed philosophy of language (which any academic that studies this for a living will tell you is garbage), don't care about the actual racism/inequality issues (even Destiny cares about the plight of the people worse off, as evidenced by his charity work), and just watch his stream because they think its funny and hilarious that hes throwing around nigger gook rape faggot all day." It's called integrity look it up. You could use some.
What in the actual....I don't know where you get your definitions but it's certainly not from a dictionary.
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In real sports, the kind where you have to leave your computer and the security of your mom's basement, they have something called "sportsmanship". I think there is a lack of this in all forms of esports and you're all killing esports yourself with your own attitudes.
So go ahead, say that Destinys stream is "personal" and that people aren't watching it because he's a pro-gamer but for the edgy comedy designed for 14-20 year old white males. Because that's exactly why no one will ever care about this game, and you're making sure of that.
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EPT
