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Think twice before hitting post; this thread will be moderated for idiocy and useless posts. Consider this a warning. |
On May 02 2012 08:28 Arghmyliver wrote:
Wikipedia:
Racism is generally understood as either belief that different racial groups are characterized by intrinsic characteristics or abilities and that some such groups are therefore naturally superior to others [1][2] or as practices that discriminate against members of particular racial groups,[1] for example by perpetuating unequal access to resources between groups.[3]
Anyone going to debate Destiny on whether he thinks one race is superior to another?
Pretty sure he thinks protoss is superior to zerg.
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On May 02 2012 08:29 Fallians wrote:
This thread and the idiotic responses are making me hate my favorite website ( well the people who post at least) T_T
This guy hit the nail on the head.
This isn't what TL is meant for. The MOD's need to start doing a better job. Half the posts in this thread are ban worthy.
This isn't how you fix the issue you are complaining about (neither is going to sponsors but the community seems to be retarded and want to kill 'esports' on its own).
This thread shouldn't even be open. Im getting so tired of this whole 'pitchfork' mentality and the whole community ganging up on certain people. Not to mention when this happens each person who is ganged up on is treated differently. Between balance whining and the complaints about casters/players constantly, this site is as bad as battle.net, and reddit is becoming better imo.
'
PLEASE TL YOU USED TO BE A FUCKING GOOD WEBSITE. IM ALMOST ON REDDIT MORE THAN TL NOW ADAYS.
User was warned for this post
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please close this useless thread
User was warned for this post
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Aside from the racial slur, does destiny even play sc2 anymore? I always see him playing LoL or other games and yet he's featured and labeled a sc2 player on a sc2 site. Anyway, it's clear from the image that destiny said the word to hurt the other player. I think meanings behinds words depend on how you use them and clearly destiny was trying to hurt the guy.
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On May 02 2012 08:12 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:07 babylon wrote:On May 02 2012 07:51 Vysage wrote:On May 02 2012 07:47 Vari wrote:On May 02 2012 07:42 Vysage wrote:On May 02 2012 07:40 Vari wrote:On May 02 2012 07:39 Vysage wrote:On May 02 2012 07:34 Fueled wrote:It's 2012, racial slurs don't mean anything. These words still having meaning. Even though some of these words are used differently now in some cases, it doesn't mean that they aren't used for hate anymore. Here's the thing. They only have meaning if you let them have meaning. So don't let them have meaning, and don't attract it by making a thread about it. sorry I can't read this post I'm not letting any of these words have meaning I guess that means they don't and you're just posting gibberish. weird strategy. Don't know why you have to get childish about it. The topic of discussion is racial slurs; no where did I say anything about words in general. "they only have meaning if you give them meaning" you wanted me to only apply that to racial slurs? that seems really convenient don't you think? words have socially accepted meaning (unless you want to say they don't, at all). you live in a society. deal with it. ESPECIALLY deal with it when you earn money off of people watching you play starcraft in this society. folks are gonna react, folks are gonna believe things based off the language you choose to use. if you don't want them to say "hey destiny sure SOUNDS like a racist" maybe... don't use racial slurs? Dude the point is that we should try to move society to where these words don't offend people. We could stop so many problems if this gets initiated. Instead of explaining the obvious, work on shifting society towards those beliefs. I already live this way. If it's that easy for me to completely remove any offensive meaning from a word I hear or see, I can't see how it'd be so difficult for everyone else to. Just do it guys. Enjoy the shit that you watch and stop worrying about little things like this. Some people simply didn't and don't have it as easy as you do. Don't you think, instead of telling people to "man up" and to "grow a thicker skin" and to "remove meaning from words," it might just be a lot better to teach kids not to use slurs? Pretty sure the pain/emotional distress some words cause greatly outweighs the inconvenience of having to choose a different word. Some people simply cannot dissociate "the bully on the playground who outed me to the entire school and called me faggot" from the word "faggot." You can't just tell people to "stop being offended" by it; links between words and meanings go deeper than that, and certain associations can't be removed. As a generally unempathetic person, it strikes me as ironic that I'm saying this, but ... dude, have some empathy. :/ Why would that help? If the words are charged with that meaning because you forbid their use, you simply perpetuate the issue. What if you instead teach that words are just words and their meaning is entirely situational? I can't see how making the word taboo could possible help it be less of a problem.
You are abstracting too much, which is the usual problem with these sorts of internet discussions. There is too much distance.
Social justice is not about stamping out racism/sexism/homophobia/etc. That is a side effect. It's about promoting the understanding and treatment of others as human beings in ways that take into consideration and respect the fact that we all come from different backgrounds and experience(d) different lives as a result.
It isn't about "taking meaning away from words so that nobody can be offended." It's about respect and having a little bit of human decency for others. The onus is not on the audience to not be offended, because they don't have complete control over their lives and the connections they make between words and memories/actions/feelings; it's on the person who is speaking, because they have complete control over the words coming out of their mouths, and if they can overcome the (I'm sure) immense effort it takes to pick another word, then they should do it, because the alternative is to cause varying degrees of discomfort/pain to the other party.
I'm not sure how to put it more simply. Sorry if it comes off as condescending. If you honestly think that the best way to go is to just tell kids, "Hey, if someone calls you a faggot, just ignore it, sticks and stones ..." over, "Son, don't you ever call people faggots, because it hurts people, and that's not a good thing to do," then I'm not sure anything I say will make you see my perspective on the issue.
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On May 02 2012 08:34 McDutch wrote:
sick of those people getting offended by words and shit.. srsly? i've been called names aswell, everyone has ever had been called something.. why would you be offended? words don't hurt, and if they do hurt you, than you should just grow up.
When im going out, and someone calls me names, i laugh, and walk away, because i don't give a shit...
srsly people, grow some balls..
im not saying Destiny's behaviour is good, but let him be the person he is..
He can be whatever he wants. People are perfectly free to not like how he acts and they are in their right to dislike a product(In this case the product being Destiny who is representing his team whether he likes it or not) and complain about it.
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This thread is barely even about Destiny anymore. It's a bunch of kids talking about something they know nothing about.
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On May 02 2012 08:31 daxile wrote:
Destiny should just not be featured and just be forgotten. Dude just attracts the wrong attention and he plays LoL more than SC2 now. When was the last time he won anything?
I think he makes good points regarding the use of racial slurs but the screenshot looks like he clearly said it to hurt his opponent who beat him, it was as if he said it out of frustration to sting the person a little. He wouldn't have used the word 'gook' if his opponent didn't type out asian characters or if his name wasn't asian itself, when was the last time he called Minigun a 'gook' or CatZ a 'gook'?
When is the last time most featured streamers won anything? just because people don't win doesn't mean they should not be featured? A VAST majority of featured streams don't win tournaments all the time they just place well. On skill alone Destiny probably is good enough to be featured, he has placed well in tournaments and takes games off very good players.
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On May 02 2012 08:37 ABagOfFritos wrote:
This thread is barely even about Destiny anymore. It's a bunch of kids talking about something they know nothing about.
Isn't that sorta what it was to begin with, too? The OP uses Destiny as the basis for telling Quantic and Razer how to run their businesses (ostensibly with the goal of "showing Destiny the error in his ways", but that may not be the case)
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On May 02 2012 08:35 memcpy wrote:
Destiny does not deserve to be featured on TL. Why does TeamLiquid endorse a player who acts like this?
that would be a good start, TL is just saying "look some of the best players (is best a good word when you have destiny there?) playing here" and then theres a kid saying every kind of word he just learned to impress his viewers
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On May 02 2012 08:32 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:31 r.Evo wrote:On May 02 2012 08:25 windsupernova wrote:On May 02 2012 08:22 r.Evo wrote:On May 02 2012 08:17 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 02 2012 08:12 Arghmyliver wrote:On May 02 2012 08:07 babylon wrote:On May 02 2012 07:51 Vysage wrote:On May 02 2012 07:47 Vari wrote:On May 02 2012 07:42 Vysage wrote:
[quote]
Don't know why you have to get childish about it. The topic of discussion is racial slurs; no where did I say anything about words in general. "they only have meaning if you give them meaning" you wanted me to only apply that to racial slurs? that seems really convenient don't you think? words have socially accepted meaning (unless you want to say they don't, at all). you live in a society. deal with it. ESPECIALLY deal with it when you earn money off of people watching you play starcraft in this society. folks are gonna react, folks are gonna believe things based off the language you choose to use. if you don't want them to say "hey destiny sure SOUNDS like a racist" maybe... don't use racial slurs? Dude the point is that we should try to move society to where these words don't offend people. We could stop so many problems if this gets initiated. Instead of explaining the obvious, work on shifting society towards those beliefs. I already live this way. If it's that easy for me to completely remove any offensive meaning from a word I hear or see, I can't see how it'd be so difficult for everyone else to. Just do it guys. Enjoy the shit that you watch and stop worrying about little things like this. Some people simply didn't and don't have it as easy as you do. Don't you think, instead of telling people to "man up" and to "grow a thicker skin" and to "remove meaning from words," it might just be a lot better to teach kids not to use slurs? Pretty sure the pain/emotional distress some words cause greatly outweighs the inconvenience of having to choose a different word. Some people simply cannot dissociate "the bully on the playground who outed me to the entire school and called me faggot" from the word "faggot." You can't just tell people to "stop being offended" by it; links between words and meanings go deeper than that, and certain associations can't be removed. As a generally unempathetic person, it strikes me as ironic that I'm saying this, but ... dude, have some empathy. :/ Why would that help? If the words are charged with that meaning because you forbid their use, you simply perpetuate the issue. What if you instead teach that words are just words and their meaning is entirely situational? I can't see how making the word taboo could possible help it be less of a problem. The word "gook" isn't in the process of being made taboo and isn't really very open to interpretation in the context it was used in. Guy with Asian sounding name cheeses you, you call him a gook. I don't see the other meanings I'm supposed to be able to draw from this... I mean, he did call that guy a "gook", right? Words are exactly that. Just words. Just like tools aren't good or bad, words aren't. ---> It doesn't really matter if he calls someone "faggot", "asshole", "nigger" or whatever. It's an insult directed at that person at that time unless someone can prove a racist intent. He's an insulting person and that's what he should be judged for.Not more, not less. Tools have certain uses, you pretending that a hammer is a screwdriver doesn't change the fact that the hammer has its history and design of uses that pin it to a certain role. So what? People have been killed with hammers, knives and guns. That doesn't make any of those inherently bad. What makes a murderer is the intention behind using the tool, not the tool itself. Alright, since you're going to debate this without studying it first, here we go... What is the original non-violent intention of the gun? Is it for opening beers? What about the nuclear bomb? What positive role could it ever be construed to have in some abstract sense?
Now you're saying all violence is inherently bad? Is smacking someone on the head who threatens your wife a bad thing?
Exactly the same for the nuclear bomb. Would it have been launched if every single person on the planet thought it was a bad thing to use it at that time? Some people thought it was a great idea. What you can and should judge is the intent that idea had. Not the "messenger" so to speak.
More than any case in the young history of e-sports the whole destiny case shows a few things:
a) His viewers don't give a fuck.
b) The sites who promote his stream in one way or another don't give a fuck.
c) His team doesn't give a fuck.
Now, if people would stand up and say "I think he's an idiot and I'm not going to watch his stream anymore / I'm going to put this up for discussion on the TL website feedback part / I'm not going to support his team that's clearly supporting him.", those are all valid and good ways to actually do something about it. That's how a community tells an individual that it doesn't tolerate his behaviour.
Argueing whether he's racist or not (which neither side can win because there is no context to prove either) won't go anywhere. What you can argue and no one, not even himself, can dispute is that he's insulting people on his public stream. - That line of thought would lead to actual solutions instead of useless bickering.
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Do people really like Louis CK? I mean anyone is better than Dane Cook, but come on...
I'm tired of "popular usage." Nigger was and is a derogatory term for African Americans, Africans, slaves, freed slaves, and so on. You can improperly use these terms until you shit yourself, but the meaning is the same, regardless of what South Park, gamers, comedians, and revisionists believe. Faggot is just poor taste. Please come up with new and smarter adjectives, streaming gamers.
As for this specific scenario, if Destiny can do this with no consequences, I highly advise Orb to leave EG and work for Quantic, where he will be free to express his high level of emotional maturity.
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The people saying "He should not be featured TL what the hell" are pretty stupid if they think that him not being featured will serve as any sort of punishment. He will still get the same viewers that he always does
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If Destiny thinks being himself means acting like a child and randomly throwing racial slurs at other people then thats fine for him. It's not that you have to watch his stream if you dislike him. The thing that bothers me here is that he has a privileged status on Teamliquid. I've always appreciated the openness and tolerance of the competitive SC2 scene and TL in specific, Destiny just doesn't fit in there. He has his funny moments, but most of the time he just addresses immature viewers with his behavior. Also, he's far from playing on a top-notch level. That makes we wonder for what reasons he actually holds the status of a featured stream on TL. Casters like BigT (anyone still remember him?) received permabans on TL for way less inappropriate behavior. Yet Destiny still is featured...
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On May 02 2012 08:36 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:34 McDutch wrote:
sick of those people getting offended by words and shit.. srsly? i've been called names aswell, everyone has ever had been called something.. why would you be offended? words don't hurt, and if they do hurt you, than you should just grow up.
When im going out, and someone calls me names, i laugh, and walk away, because i don't give a shit...
srsly people, grow some balls..
im not saying Destiny's behaviour is good, but let him be the person he is.. He can be whatever he wants. People are perfectly free to not like how he acts and they are in their right to dislike a product(In this case the product being Destiny who is representing his team whether he likes it or not) and complain about it.
so let the team decide what to do, if they decide not to do anything, and you hate the way he acts, don't watch his stream, or don't support the team anymore. That's how easy it is. Exactly the same way how you should treat peole who are assholes IRL, and talking shit. Don't give attention, and in the end, he'll be forever alone..
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On May 02 2012 08:39 Akhee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:35 memcpy wrote:
Destiny does not deserve to be featured on TL. Why does TeamLiquid endorse a player who acts like this? that would be a good start, TL is just saying "look some of the best players (is best a good word when you have destiny there?) playing here" and then theres a kid saying every kind of word he just learned to impress his viewers
Destiny is featured on TL because he is popular, his popularity brings new visitors to the website. TL wants these visitors. Why make statements like this when you don't know how basic advertisement works?
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Maybe destiny was called alot of shit when he was young. hes not really strong i would probably beat up 3 destinys but he has balls saying stuff like this, i have to give him that. Some day maybe he meets someone at mlg and gets smashed. But i still like him.
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On May 02 2012 08:37 ABagOfFritos wrote:
This thread is barely even about Destiny anymore. It's a bunch of kids talking about something they know nothing about.
So, why don't you enlighten us all. This kind of condescending comments don't really add anything and don't really make you look as a knowledgeable person
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On May 02 2012 08:16 hmmm... wrote:
holy crap this thread is a mess.
i don't understand those people who claim racial slurs aren't offensive anymore because they're no longer relevant in today's society. words contain meaning to any person to the extent that person is willing to give meaning to those words. hence, some white people may be offended by "cracker" while others may not. you can't simply lay down your own opinion as law and claim racial slurs are no longer relevant in today's society.
on another note, it's sad that destiny has to continuing swearing and uttering racial slurs in order to attract attention. it's unfortunate that that is the only thing destiny has to offer (as opposed to actual gaming skill) and it's also unfortunate that there is actually a sizable consumer-base willing to entertain such immature displays by Destiny.
if you are a true fan of Destiny, you should probably be hoping for Destiny to improve in skill so that one day, the only way he is able to distinguish himself from other "pro" gamers won't be having to resort to petty swearing and racial slurs.
Threads like this make me hate this community :/. Honestly, being angry is not a freaking excuse to be a tremendous bigot, especially when you have a sizable and impressionable group of viewers. If you are a bigot when you're angry, you're a bigot all the time. I am disgusted that so many people are actually defending him for behaving like this ALL THE TIME. What more does this man have to do to get people to understand that he is a raging, bigoted manchild?
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On May 02 2012 08:34 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 08:33 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 02 2012 08:22 r.Evo wrote:On May 02 2012 08:17 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 02 2012 08:12 Arghmyliver wrote:On May 02 2012 08:07 babylon wrote:On May 02 2012 07:51 Vysage wrote:On May 02 2012 07:47 Vari wrote:On May 02 2012 07:42 Vysage wrote:On May 02 2012 07:40 Vari wrote:
[quote]
sorry I can't read this post I'm not letting any of these words have meaning
I guess that means they don't and you're just posting gibberish. weird strategy. Don't know why you have to get childish about it. The topic of discussion is racial slurs; no where did I say anything about words in general. "they only have meaning if you give them meaning" you wanted me to only apply that to racial slurs? that seems really convenient don't you think? words have socially accepted meaning (unless you want to say they don't, at all). you live in a society. deal with it. ESPECIALLY deal with it when you earn money off of people watching you play starcraft in this society. folks are gonna react, folks are gonna believe things based off the language you choose to use. if you don't want them to say "hey destiny sure SOUNDS like a racist" maybe... don't use racial slurs? Dude the point is that we should try to move society to where these words don't offend people. We could stop so many problems if this gets initiated. Instead of explaining the obvious, work on shifting society towards those beliefs. I already live this way. If it's that easy for me to completely remove any offensive meaning from a word I hear or see, I can't see how it'd be so difficult for everyone else to. Just do it guys. Enjoy the shit that you watch and stop worrying about little things like this. Some people simply didn't and don't have it as easy as you do. Don't you think, instead of telling people to "man up" and to "grow a thicker skin" and to "remove meaning from words," it might just be a lot better to teach kids not to use slurs? Pretty sure the pain/emotional distress some words cause greatly outweighs the inconvenience of having to choose a different word. Some people simply cannot dissociate "the bully on the playground who outed me to the entire school and called me faggot" from the word "faggot." You can't just tell people to "stop being offended" by it; links between words and meanings go deeper than that, and certain associations can't be removed. As a generally unempathetic person, it strikes me as ironic that I'm saying this, but ... dude, have some empathy. :/ Why would that help? If the words are charged with that meaning because you forbid their use, you simply perpetuate the issue. What if you instead teach that words are just words and their meaning is entirely situational? I can't see how making the word taboo could possible help it be less of a problem. The word "gook" isn't in the process of being made taboo and isn't really very open to interpretation in the context it was used in. Guy with Asian sounding name cheeses you, you call him a gook. I don't see the other meanings I'm supposed to be able to draw from this... I mean, he did call that guy a "gook", right? Words are exactly that. Just words. Just like tools aren't good or bad, words aren't. ---> It doesn't really matter if he calls someone "faggot", "asshole", "nigger" or whatever. It's an insult directed at that person at that time unless someone can prove a racist intent. He's an insulting person and that's what he should be judged for.Not more, not less. See, when I call you a stupid asshole, it may or may not hurt your feelings, even if my intention was to hurt your feelings. When I call you: Jew-killer, Adolf, Nazi, Kraut, Blockhead, Fritz, Germ or Hans Bitterman, while you may not be offended, BUT I just singled out every German who reads what I said and makes an impression of me based upon it. EDIT: missed a but Didn't you mostly just single out Nazi germans? You wouldn't want to confuse "Germans" with "Nazi Germans" because it would make you look like a fraud...
My point was that a German might not be able to make a connection to the offensiveness of a racial slur directed at an Asian, and also that racial slurs are unjustifiable, no matter what your intent is. Slurs are historically rooted statements which were spawned during times of hatred. Many of the slurs for Germans happen come from a time when anti-German sentiment was at an all time high - WW2. Obviously they're out of place. They also represent assumptions and misconceptions about a person which they may find to be highly offensive, ie: "I'm not a nazi, why am I being called a Kraut?"
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