On May 02 2012 08:35 memcpy wrote: Destiny does not deserve to be featured on TL. Why does TeamLiquid endorse a player who acts like this?
Last time I was asked I was yelled at by staff to not click it if I didn't want to watch. I can't see them changing it.
A great point was made by TL staff here. If you don't like it, fuck off. Nobody is asking you to watch him, let alone forcing you. Watch a different stream. Put your own language filters on if you can't handle a string of characters in a particular order when you are playing a game.
and yet he gets banned for having views that are 'incompatible with TL', while everyone making horrible juvenile arguments in this thread to justify racist behaviour walks away free
almost like it's...not a place suited to mature discussion
He gets banned for having "incompatible views" because many TL mods are incapable of reading opposing views. It's interesting how he is banned for exactly what the TL mods are guilty of by enforcing such a ban.
this is ridiculous. all you kids that say saying nigger or gook is OK are retarded.
I'll agree with you morons if it's ok if you go outside, step away from the comfort of your room and go up to a capable black man / asian man / whatever race and say the corresponding racial slur to them and tell them it's OK.
Destiny was just temp banned for 30 days by motbob.
That account was created on 2009-05-21 06:06:54 and had 190 posts.
Reason: There are two aspects to this ban.
The first has to do with the complete lack of respect that you have shown members of this community, including mods, during the discussion in the "Racial Slurs" thread. In that thread, if someone else's opinion did not correspond with your own, you seemed incapable of accepting that that opinion might have any merit at all. In addition, you used language and "4chan-isms" that would have gotten anyone banned many times over.
The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community.
To be clear, you are not being banned for holding that view, per se. The fact that you expressed it repeatedly on TL, and the manner in which you expressed it, is the reason for this ban.
Note to the TL community: this ban was made after a discussion involving multiple TL mods and admins. Though I am listed as the mod banning Destiny, it was a collective decision.
Thanks TL. Hopefully when he comes back he will be a bit more mild-mannered. I hope is streaming privileges are revoked as well?
I'm sure this has been said, but there is a really good episode of Weapon of Choice (or Lo3?) about this feat. Incontrol. Wheat and destiny. i believe they touched on it on SotG the same (or following?) week.
On May 02 2012 08:49 PiQLiQ wrote: And people says i'm bad mannered because i never talk in game? I never talk in a Starcraft2 game. I don't defend anyone but this thread is just silly imo talk with Destiny if you have a problem with the way he types in game.
People often view saying nothing as a sign of disrespect.
The problem with accepting slurs against other races/ minorities as just words is that some people actually mean them. I really don't think Destiny is going to go out , and beat up the first guy who exits the local gay bar. Some people will though and if it's bad enough one such event may make a local newspaper.
When Destiny uses the word faggot aggressively and negatively on ladder he's being mad at just his opponent as opposed to implying a real problem with homosexual people.. However the word faggot is still very much in use by the kind of people who mean others true ill when they use it. When you use a slur on any public platform you confirm to anyone who sees it that it's ok to use that word negatively. Destiny might mean nothing ( in his opinion) by his use of various slurs but by accepting their general use he gives a platform and legitimacy to those who would use them for actual hate speech.
I am someone who fits into multiple categories for which slurs are often used and who has had those words followed by actual violence. I'd really prefer if the starcraft 2 community could learn that when someone is offended by words it may be because they'd them used on them in a violent manner. Not wanting to see slurs flung around casually is not just a matter of omg not that bad word!!!.
On May 02 2012 08:54 jj33 wrote: this is ridiculous. all you kids that say saying nigger or gook is OK are retarded.
I'll agree with you morons if it's ok if you go outside, step away from the comfort of your room and go up to a capable black man / asian man / whatever race and say the corresponding racial slur to them and tell them it's OK.
This is the core issue. People, in general, whatever their background, need to stop thinking of these words in such a way. Nigger is a pretty good example. Black people say they can say it all they want but that nobody else can. So they basically apply a double standard here and are being inherently racist by doing so. Fuck that. The fact that people still think "oh my that word is racist" is an impediment to social progress.
team liquid: i want to thank you for this justice. I was honestly losing hope for a moment, but i think you guys pulled through and did the right thing.
remember the TL commandment "THIS IS OUR HOUSE" "..if if we dont like you we will simply ban you"
Destiny was just temp banned for 30 days by motbob.
That account was created on 2009-05-21 06:06:54 and had 190 posts.
Reason: There are two aspects to this ban.
The first has to do with the complete lack of respect that you have shown members of this community, including mods, during the discussion in the "Racial Slurs" thread. In that thread, if someone else's opinion did not correspond with your own, you seemed incapable of accepting that that opinion might have any merit at all. In addition, you used language and "4chan-isms" that would have gotten anyone banned many times over.
The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community.
To be clear, you are not being banned for holding that view, per se. The fact that you expressed it repeatedly on TL, and the manner in which you expressed it, is the reason for this ban.
Note to the TL community: this ban was made after a discussion involving multiple TL mods and admins. Though I am listed as the mod banning Destiny, it was a collective decision.
Thanks TL. Hopefully when he comes back he will be a bit more mild-mannered. I hope is streaming privileges are revoked as well?
More likely what happens is he doesn't change (like when IdrA was temp banned). Adults don't respond the same way to these things as children do. That's part of why it's hilarious when forum moderators silence people (even if they're being brutally annoying with image spam or something like that).
On May 02 2012 08:54 jj33 wrote: this is ridiculous. all you kids that say saying nigger or gook is OK are retarded.
I'll agree with you morons if it's ok if you go outside, step away from the comfort of your room and go up to a capable black man / asian man / whatever race and say the corresponding racial slur to them and tell them it's OK.
This is the core issue. People, in general, whatever their background, need to stop thinking of these words in such a way. Nigger is a pretty good example. Black people say they can say it all they want but that nobody else can. So they basically apply a double standard here and are being inherently racist by doing so. Fuck that.
OK so go say nigger to a black man on the street and see what happens to you.
You can say it's just words, but there is a context to those words that are hurtful to people. Saying it online behind the comfort of your house and behind your computer but not saying it in real life, makes you a real coward.
On May 02 2012 08:49 PiQLiQ wrote: And people says i'm bad mannered because i never talk in game? I never talk in a Starcraft2 game. I don't defend anyone but this thread is just silly imo talk with Destiny if you have a problem with the way he types in game.
People often view saying nothing as a sign of disrespect.
So i should be called a bad mannered person because i don't talk in a computer-game when i know if i talk i might get bad mannered back? That's idiotic imo. This is why i never debate in forums normally. Teamliquid is amazing that's the only reason why i'm here otherwise i wouldn't be.
Destiny was just temp banned for 30 days by motbob.
That account was created on 2009-05-21 06:06:54 and had 190 posts.
Reason: There are two aspects to this ban.
The first has to do with the complete lack of respect that you have shown members of this community, including mods, during the discussion in the "Racial Slurs" thread. In that thread, if someone else's opinion did not correspond with your own, you seemed incapable of accepting that that opinion might have any merit at all. In addition, you used language and "4chan-isms" that would have gotten anyone banned many times over.
The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community.
To be clear, you are not being banned for holding that view, per se. The fact that you expressed it repeatedly on TL, and the manner in which you expressed it, is the reason for this ban.
Note to the TL community: this ban was made after a discussion involving multiple TL mods and admins. Though I am listed as the mod banning Destiny, it was a collective decision.
I'm pleased about TL stepping up. Thanks for trying to make a positive difference.
I don't know if they were really trying to actively make a difference. The reasons were because of his actions through the thread, and not his actions on his stream. Though those actions on stream were brought up, they were not what warranted the ban.
Personally, I see this ban as something brought on by pressure from the community, and then tipped off by his actions through the thread that were mentioned in the write up. Not as something that they were going to do from the start based on his actions on stream.
EDIT: Goodness gracious this thread is so far gone @_@ People are getting way too fired up with this 'debating.' Personally, I think it should be closed. the issue has been debated and Destiny has gotten temp banned. Case closed, right?
What a convoluted argumentation... As a side note, when did the TL staff become the last beacon of hope to our civilization ? When you read truly old threads (4 years old per exemple), insults and slur were quite frequent. Did changes on moderation policy arrive suddenly, or was it a slow processus, developping over several months?
Damn, i wish somebody wrote a History of TeamLiquid.
although bananafish is an idiot, he brought up something i agree with.
but the majority of tl is white so im going to hold off on saying much. i love how logical people can not realize the 'intent' argument by someone who isn't a subset of the victimized in these slurs just doesn't work, just on a 1+1=2 level.
On May 02 2012 08:54 jj33 wrote: this is ridiculous. all you kids that say saying nigger or gook is OK are retarded.
I'll agree with you morons if it's ok if you go outside, step away from the comfort of your room and go up to a capable black man / asian man / whatever race and say the corresponding racial slur to them and tell them it's OK.
This is the core issue. People, in general, whatever their background, need to stop thinking of these words in such a way. Nigger is a pretty good example. Black people say they can say it all they want but that nobody else can. So they basically apply a double standard here and are being inherently racist by doing so. Fuck that.
OK so go say nigger to a black man on the street and see what happens to you.
You can say it's just words, but there is a context to those words that are hurtful to people. Saying it online behind the comfort of your house and behind your computer but not saying it in real life, makes you a real coward.
I'm not gonna repeat myself, I'll just ask that you pull your head out of your ass and think for once.
On May 02 2012 08:54 jj33 wrote: this is ridiculous. all you kids that say saying nigger or gook is OK are retarded.
I'll agree with you morons if it's ok if you go outside, step away from the comfort of your room and go up to a capable black man / asian man / whatever race and say the corresponding racial slur to them and tell them it's OK.
Please watch your language, I find such use of "retarded" offensive as I know other people who are retarded. I don't think that type of speech is acceptable.
On May 02 2012 08:54 jj33 wrote: this is ridiculous. all you kids that say saying nigger or gook is OK are retarded.
I'll agree with you morons if it's ok if you go outside, step away from the comfort of your room and go up to a capable black man / asian man / whatever race and say the corresponding racial slur to them and tell them it's OK.
This is the core issue. People, in general, whatever their background, need to stop thinking of these words in such a way. Nigger is a pretty good example. Black people say they can say it all they want but that nobody else can. So they basically apply a double standard here and are being inherently racist by doing so. Fuck that.
OK so go say nigger to a black man on the street and see what happens to you.
You can say it's just words, but there is a context to those words that are hurtful to people. Saying it online behind the comfort of your house and behind your computer but not saying it in real life, makes you a real coward.
I'm not gonna repeat myself, I'll just ask that you pull your head out of your ass and think for once.
I am thinking, you clearly have it wrong. there is no double standard. A person of the same race saying it is not the same as a person outside of it.
On May 02 2012 08:49 PiQLiQ wrote: And people says i'm bad mannered because i never talk in game? I never talk in a Starcraft2 game. I don't defend anyone but this thread is just silly imo talk with Destiny if you have a problem with the way he types in game.
People often view saying nothing as a sign of disrespect.
So i should be called a bad mannered person because i don't talk in a computer-game when i know if i talk i might get bad mannered back? That's idiotic imo. This is why i never debate in forums normally. Teamliquid is amazing that's the only reason why i'm here otherwise i wouldn't be.
The difference is no one really cares that you don't talk in a game. Sure maybe some people you play try to spam you and get you to talk or whatever, but no one seriously has a problem with it
Speaking as a big fan of Destiny, I can say without question that he is absolutely racist and homophobic. However, I think it's out of ignorance and an inability to empathize with the target group, than with actual hate.
When I say he's racist, I'm not implying he has a KKK robe in his closet. His racism exists when he "others" the target group -- I think homophobic is a more accurate description than racist, it emphasizes ignorance over hate. In my opinion, this exists because he doesn't have any close minority and gay friends in real life.
He couches his racism behind appeals to linguistics and context, which is merely a justification for his behavior. I think Louis CK's commentary on the word "faggot" is an uncomfortable word to use. Louis CK doesn't use the "nigger" and "faggot" standup anymore on his standup. Some have previously linked to that video, and he has said in interviews that he has disavowed that standup routine.
(Skip to 4:50)
Note that the history of the word is incorrect in the video, however, the underlying message still stands -- that homophobic/racist language is unacceptable in a broadcast medium because it brings back memories of racism within the target group, and as a result it becomes a racist/homophobic act itself.
No one is perfect, everyone has their own "invisible backpack" of privelege somewhere. I know I'm guilty of calling people retarded. However, there is a difference between the venal sin of barbed insults amongst private company, and the cardinal sin of insulting a target demographic (where it is not a choice) in a broadcast public forum. I find it uncomfortable that people here find it acceptable that insulting a target demographic is not an issue at all.
Now, this doesn't mean that I cannot be a fan of him. Quite the opposite, it is no different than how one can accept the racism of an elderly grandmother. Being a fan implies he has qualities that far succeed his racist flaws, which is a roundabout compliment to his humor and personality. However, all racism is borne out of ignorance, and Destiny is certainly an ignorant racist. I've never previously questioned him on this behavior, as like how I'd never create some confrontation out of a friend's racist grandmother making a racially charged remark on the side beyond disapproving glances and murmurs -- there are times when you can change minds, and times when it's futile.
I do think Destiny's mind can be changed, as this borne out of ignorance, not hate, so I do see this as a fruitful discussion.
EPT
