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I feel Starcraft 2 is very passive. - Page 24

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Natespank
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada449 Posts
November 26 2011 05:40 GMT
#461
Speaking of passive games... anybody see Tod vs Happy earlier at Dreamhack? Seriously, look it up, it's hilarious- Day9 had me almost falling out of my seat laughing.
Natespank
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada449 Posts
November 26 2011 05:43 GMT
#462
SC2 needs more units capable of "leverage."

Archimedes: "Give me a large enough lever and just a place to stand and I could move the world"
nanaoei
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
3358 Posts
November 26 2011 05:49 GMT
#463
i don't see much of any problem. you're given more freedom to do what you want within reasonable time..
it is your choice if you want to be some 400apm sc2 beast, or some player who plays at whatever pace lets him mmm micro like anyone else. the faster, more talented player will find the gap, the chink, the timing.... this is how it was always generally like since the game evolved--past slayers_boxer's prime
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
Genie1
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada333 Posts
November 26 2011 09:53 GMT
#464
On November 26 2011 11:57 Heldericht wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2011 14:13 Doraemon wrote:
On November 23 2011 14:11 bennyaus wrote:
I watched the last proleague finals, and I saw like 3 zergs do a 3 hatch hydra all-in against Protoss. Then I remembered how people complained about how there was too many all-ins in SC2, or that the macro games suck.

Get a grip. Just because you can post one youtube example of a sick BW game (which is a game that was pro for 8-9 years by that stage) does not exclude the fact that many of them were quite similar to SC2 games. There are plenty of passive games, plenty of all-ins. Both games are interesting in their own ways. I can also find vods of sick late-game SC2 games, like an earlier poster mentioned. Thorzain vs MC in TSL was quite memorable, and HuK vs Moon at Dreamhack group stage as well. This is excluding the fact that TvZ/ZvT in SC2 is almost awesome in every match provided it gets past the 10min mark.


the problem is:
sc2: 1 sick late game engagement = gg
bw: can produce prolonged sick engagements throughout the game

that's undeniable



Actually, I'll deny that whole heartedly.

Please refer to the recent Dreamhack Winter 2011 games, specifically Sheth vs ToD.

http://blip.tv/day9tv/sheth-z-vs-tod-p-g1-dreamhack-winter-group-k-day-1-5766224

Insane army trades in late game. Drops by ToD constantly and overall and very exciting back and forth game.



You guys are looking at BW through nostalgia tinted glasses. SC2 is an amazing, exciting game and will continue to be just that.


Throwing away the first group of brood lords cost him the game because of the constant harass it was hard making brood lords and enough ground forces to make an attack. Once ToD got more then 4 bases it was over at that point he had 3 mining bases while Sheth was constantly dealing with all the harass and doing a trade for an army and losing all his main tech was another way to lose the game. The game was over for a long time but Sheth didn't want to leave and just continued to play to see if he could make anything out of it which was impossible because the income of the Protoss was greater then the income of the Zerg which is never a good sign for them.
[RAVEN ONLINE] "You don't talk like us" [....CAW CAW] -QXC
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-26 10:16:50
November 26 2011 10:11 GMT
#465
On November 26 2011 11:57 Heldericht wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2011 14:13 Doraemon wrote:
On November 23 2011 14:11 bennyaus wrote:
I watched the last proleague finals, and I saw like 3 zergs do a 3 hatch hydra all-in against Protoss. Then I remembered how people complained about how there was too many all-ins in SC2, or that the macro games suck.

Get a grip. Just because you can post one youtube example of a sick BW game (which is a game that was pro for 8-9 years by that stage) does not exclude the fact that many of them were quite similar to SC2 games. There are plenty of passive games, plenty of all-ins. Both games are interesting in their own ways. I can also find vods of sick late-game SC2 games, like an earlier poster mentioned. Thorzain vs MC in TSL was quite memorable, and HuK vs Moon at Dreamhack group stage as well. This is excluding the fact that TvZ/ZvT in SC2 is almost awesome in every match provided it gets past the 10min mark.


the problem is:
sc2: 1 sick late game engagement = gg
bw: can produce prolonged sick engagements throughout the game

that's undeniable



Actually, I'll deny that whole heartedly.

Please refer to the recent Dreamhack Winter 2011 games, specifically Sheth vs ToD.

http://blip.tv/day9tv/sheth-z-vs-tod-p-g1-dreamhack-winter-group-k-day-1-5766224

Insane army trades in late game. Drops by ToD constantly and overall and very exciting back and forth game.



You guys are looking at BW through nostalgia tinted glasses. SC2 is an amazing, exciting game and will continue to be just that.


How many times has these argument been brought up by the people on the other side ? We bw fans looks at thing with nostalgia glasses , How is it that we are looking at our games with glasses when every time we watch a game , we get panic, worried , because our team may lose this round because of mistakes made by the individual players ? . Bw has really well developed teams and the game is just as fresh as it is , when I compared it to the game played back than in 1998 and 2011 . So much changes has been made to the game , no one in their right mind in boxer era would have expo and take multi expansion as fast as it did in the current style of playing broodwar .

Game is still changing and we are seeing multiple strategies that have come up across the time , such as the queen to snipe off tanks with spawn broodling , Terran without tanks in their mech armament they are good as dead , Protoss +1 timing attack meant to destroy zergs who are greedy and wants to drone and skim on the defense . That's what baffle me with the thought of these argument keep bringing up again and again .It's getting really stale , if I am looking at a nostalgia game that still relies on boxers era 1 base build to satisfy my desire to watch broodwar than I can agree with the looking at things with nostalgia glasses .However bw current metamorphosis of new tactics and the ability to play aggressive thanks to the familiarity of macro mechanics system . It's really unpredictable what can happen on screen .

Micro,Macro,multi prong drop harassment all over the map, mini battles happening at every continent of the map , every time when I see these happening on screen , I feel like I am watching broodwar again for the first time and me having the hind sight of what's happening in game because the pro players not only have to juggle between selecting every individual building to macro , he has to multi task back and forth from his base and micro to get what you are seeing on screen come alive . That to me is more than enough to stick to this game forever .
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
MaV_gGSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1345 Posts
November 26 2011 10:19 GMT
#466
I agree about the resource collection rate. I don't know why they nerfed it down to 5. if anything they should've just bumped it to 10 if they really wanted a solid number. It really cuts into the food especially now that we need SIX workers per geyser than 3. Great points and I agree
Life's good :D
Rogerabbit_gosu
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom27 Posts
November 26 2011 10:49 GMT
#467
I only really find tvt too passive! That game of Flash vs Fantasy was no more exciting in my view than most match-ups that are not tvt, I think you are just getting confused as the Korean commentators talk so fast and with so much energy! I mean they are just looking at their build orders and still talking in 4x speed
Ohnoes02
Profile Joined November 2011
Singapore26 Posts
November 26 2011 11:39 GMT
#468
If you watched hero's game vs sheth that was just played on dreamhack, you will know that the only reason sc2 seems too passive atm is because sc2 is still a young game. Pros are still figuring out the game.

Hero and sheth displayed ridiculous skill and there were engagements going all over the map the entire game.

Give it time imo. Especially for the BW pros to switch over.
iky43210
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States2099 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-26 12:48:14
November 26 2011 12:45 GMT
#469
Hero and Sheth was definitely an amazing game, it blew my mind on how far Hero is ahead of other protoss in PvZ.

I believe the future of PvZ will be heading this way as well once people have the controls, something all of us can look forward to a year from now

Woizit
Profile Joined June 2011
801 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-26 12:58:54
November 26 2011 12:57 GMT
#470
I always thought that it's the watchtowers that make the macro games passive. Slower resource collection doesn't necessarily translate to more passive games; since action should still be able to occur at any point of time in the game. Watchtowers however, makes it such that army movement is easily scouted by one side, which means that while powering up early on, corners can be cut to the maximum due to the easy access of information, and in late game, moving an army away from the watchtower means giving up an already strong position.

Boxer vs Rain was actually a unique situation because it was clear it's a situation nobody has seen before and neither player knew how to continue on from that point except to try mine more. TvT air play became a lot more refined and easier to watch in the GSL a month after that game.

It should also be noted that the maps also create different activity in macro games. Daybreak seems to keep producing great macro games with the multiple quick paths/chokes. On the other hand, maps like Antiga Shipyard simply requires you to clash in the exact centre.
okrane
Profile Joined April 2010
France265 Posts
November 26 2011 15:06 GMT
#471
blame the deathballs
Really disappointed with Starcraft II Zerg! :(
Micket
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom2163 Posts
November 26 2011 15:20 GMT
#472
Once slow, no multitask, deathballing Protosses start losing their games, the faster SC2 will develop and move away from passive play. Unfortunately, defensive, turtly, deathball Protoss still wins most of the time and is easy to do. Furthermore, when it starts losing, Protoss starts whining, create sad zealot fanclubs, Blizzard buffs Toss and they go back to deathballing.

I feel the other matchups are pretty dynamic, unless Terran goes mech. But I feel Terran mech is far harder than bio or P deathball and so does not happen enough to really add to the total passivity of the game.
archonOOid
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1983 Posts
November 26 2011 15:27 GMT
#473
OP has the wrong topic! It should be I dislike the tossball.

OP likes ZvT and TvT but doesn't mention ZvZ or PvP because those match-ups are very aggressive. It leaves out pvz and pvt match-ups which makes me think that OP ha either a negative attitude towards the players or the game design. Both those cases doesn't make for fruitful discussions as he didn't specify why that is but just a problem he has observed. C- piece.
I'm Quotable (IQ)
BroodWarHD
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
136 Posts
November 26 2011 15:29 GMT
#474
i think to be a bit of a red herring the argument of player skill and innovation missing from sc2 being bw level in macro games.

Look at the foreign BW scene. Players make a lot of errors, theres tons of sloppiness and strategic mistakes, bad tactics. And yet, the games are incredibly entertaining to watch. I gotta agree that theres still a bit of that x-factor, those magic sparkles that Browder and co will have to figure out in the sc2 gameplay, including establishing defenders advantage in order for splitting up armies to have a smaller penalty, so as to have the grand feel of BW lategame.
cHeK
Profile Joined April 2011
United States35 Posts
November 26 2011 15:34 GMT
#475
I agree, I personally prefer shorter heavy aggressions over longer macro games because they can become boring, long, and slow. Hopefully as people learn more and more about the match ups and the game, this will not be the case.
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
November 26 2011 15:45 GMT
#476
On November 26 2011 14:40 Natespank wrote:
Speaking of passive games... anybody see Tod vs Happy earlier at Dreamhack? Seriously, look it up, it's hilarious- Day9 had me almost falling out of my seat laughing.

I don't think it's been uploaded onto his blip channel yet.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
B4_WheeL
Profile Joined January 2009
Lithuania47 Posts
November 26 2011 15:49 GMT
#477
well the overall game became more passive because you don't need to do things that you needed or they became easier to do
but still the game is pretty active because both games require multitasking if your multitasking is lacking of course the game will look more passive

On November 23 2011 12:48 eSuBuildings wrote:
Starcraft 2 is more like chess where late late game situations tend to become a matter of waiting and unit control rather than tactics.


Well chess endgames don't have much tactics too it is all about waiting and execution.
razy
Profile Joined February 2010
Russian Federation899 Posts
November 26 2011 15:54 GMT
#478
On November 27 2011 00:27 archonOOid wrote:
OP has the wrong topic! It should be I dislike the tossball.

OP likes ZvT and TvT but doesn't mention ZvZ or PvP because those match-ups are very aggressive. It leaves out pvz and pvt match-ups which makes me think that OP ha either a negative attitude towards the players or the game design. Both those cases doesn't make for fruitful discussions as he didn't specify why that is but just a problem he has observed. C- piece.


PvZ is becoming great match up because players start to figure out with what they can get away in midgame (zergs aggressively expanding and forcing some response from toss who choose massive tech and harass).

PvT will become fun as well once protoss will understand that they need faster third for that extra gas otherwise they'll continue struggling to fight 2 vs 2 base against bio-terrans while slowly expanding. Such kind of play favours terran a lot.
Lavi
Profile Joined November 2011
Bangladesh793 Posts
November 26 2011 16:09 GMT
#479
On November 27 2011 00:20 Micket wrote:
Once slow, no multitask, deathballing Protosses start losing their games, the faster SC2 will develop and move away from passive play. Unfortunately, defensive, turtly, deathball Protoss still wins most of the time and is easy to do. Furthermore, when it starts losing, Protoss starts whining, create sad zealot fanclubs, Blizzard buffs Toss and they go back to deathballing.

I feel the other matchups are pretty dynamic, unless Terran goes mech. But I feel Terran mech is far harder than bio or P deathball and so does not happen enough to really add to the total passivity of the game.


I'm starting to think sc2 developer really likes the deathball style... like day9 said emp is like mosquito bite radius now. MaNa already showed pre nerf of emp, toss is incredibly powerful with splitting templar and such which differentiated him as one of the better toss...I can't help but feel mosquito bite emp radius just sending the wrong message of promoting the same old deathballs.

Another thing is bio vs deathball... happy vs tod lol. Thankfully I believe HOTS will kind of fix this assuming tvp will hopefully turn into mech vs deathball.... so it will become more interesting by default as the quicker deathball maneuvers around the slower mech train.
eourcs
Profile Joined February 2011
United States459 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-26 16:35:30
November 26 2011 16:34 GMT
#480
On November 27 2011 00:54 razy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 27 2011 00:27 archonOOid wrote:
OP has the wrong topic! It should be I dislike the tossball.

OP likes ZvT and TvT but doesn't mention ZvZ or PvP because those match-ups are very aggressive. It leaves out pvz and pvt match-ups which makes me think that OP ha either a negative attitude towards the players or the game design. Both those cases doesn't make for fruitful discussions as he didn't specify why that is but just a problem he has observed. C- piece.


PvZ is becoming great match up because players start to figure out with what they can get away in midgame (zergs aggressively expanding and forcing some response from toss who choose massive tech and harass).

PvT will become fun as well once protoss will understand that they need faster third for that extra gas otherwise they'll continue struggling to fight 2 vs 2 base against bio-terrans while slowly expanding. Such kind of play favours terran a lot.

PvT will become really boring once people realize that sitting on 3-4 bases with a deathball and accumulating money + gateways is the best way to play. Mana and Hasuobs have been doing this for the last 8-10 months, and they rarely lose PvT.

But no, we're still gonna have idiots doing 2base allins and then complaining about balance once it stops working.
Masters Terran | Strelok after losing to Kas' BCs "FUUUUUCK" *Stream Offline* | "Fuck hellions. Fuck them in the ass" IdrA
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