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On September 12 2011 01:31 KentHenry wrote:
I'm glad Pinochet overthrew the political leaders of a country heading in the direction of communism. Many people may dislike Pinochet and call him a mass murderer, but he really did bring back democracy to Chile in a time of need; but not in a civil way, which sometimes being civil gets you nowhere.
Bravo. I am really glad that you are speaking your mind about this. It lets everyone know what kind of a person you are.
Sad fact is that you aren't the only one who feels this to be true. I'd say 50% of the americans who know about the war crimes will probably feel the same way. Unfortunately 90% of these 50% are political leaders, intelligence agents, military officers - basically your ruling elite.
Also I am impressed by the level of doucheness displayed by people who are arguing over the number of casualties of Pinochet. Does the fact that ONLY 3000 people dying at his hands making him less of a monster? Does it matter that less people died in Chile than in WTC? Do you see people arguing over the casualty figures from WTC? Unfuckingbelievable.
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You might aswell check the September 12 Turkish Coup d'etat aswell. The numbers are pretty much similar, 600.000 people detained, tortured in inhumane ways, a lot of people have disappeared and died. The worst thing is that the young, bright and intellectual leftists of Turkey were pretty much wiped out or forced into hiding completely. A lot of my country's problems can be traced back to this event. It's that much important.
EDIT: The demon who caused these events also justified it by "protecting the country against communism threat". It's all about US and how to kiss their ass, no matter what you do to your people. There were people who've gone mad due to the treatment they've got from the jailers, some committed suicide because they couldn't take it anymore. And who do you blame? Communism. Fucking brilliant.
It's anniversary is tomorrow. A dark, dark spot in our history.
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I never said TL is an american-based forum. But clearly the vast majority of people on this forum are at least english-speaking and it makes a WTC 9/11 post far more appropriate than a Chilean-based one. No? Anybody care to argue the ratio of Americans to Chileans on TL? or are you done with strawman arguments?
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On September 12 2011 01:47 Holophonist wrote:
I never said TL is an american-based forum. But clearly the vast majority of people on this forum are at least english-speaking and it makes a WTC 9/11 post far more appropriate than a Chilean-based one. No? Anybody care to argue the ratio of Americans to Chileans on TL? or are you done with strawman arguments?
Who gives you the authority to say which topic is more appropriate anyway?
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But when I see people like DeepemBlue who justify, refuse to recognize the crimes that his country committed only 30 years ago (and never apologized for) because of some ideological blindness and typical manicheism, I find it really problematic.
What's really problematic is your repeated projection of your own Manichean thinking and ideological blindness on the issue.
Confusing also that refusing to swallow your opinion 100% means "refus[al] to recognize" and "justify."
Confusing also that just because the CIA "supported" the coup (how? Do you even know? I bet you have no idea exactly what the extent of American involvement was), as if there never would have been a coup if the CIA had not instigated it. Which isn't true of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._intervention_in_Chile#1973_coup
This is what I'm talking about, you don't even know what really happened, you just mindlessly talk about "crimes." The real US crime is that the CIA supported Pinochet after the coup while publicly the US was condemning him, not the coup itself.
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On September 12 2011 01:46 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:31 KentHenry wrote:
I'm glad Pinochet overthrew the political leaders of a country heading in the direction of communism. Many people may dislike Pinochet and call him a mass murderer, but he really did bring back democracy to Chile in a time of need; but not in a civil way, which sometimes being civil gets you nowhere. Bravo. I am really glad that you are speaking your mind about this. It lets everyone know what kind of a person you are. Sad fact is that you aren't the only one who feels this to be true. I'd say 50% of the americans who know about the war crimes will probably feel the same way. Unfortunately 90% of these 50% are political leaders, intelligence agents, military officers - basically your ruling elite. Also I am impressed by the level of doucheness displayed by people who are arguing over the number of casualties of Pinochet. Does the fact that ONLY 3000 people dying at his hands making him less of a monster? Does it matter that less people died in Chile than in WTC? Do you see people arguing over the casualty figures from WTC? Unfuckingbelievable.
The reason people are arguing over it is because the OP clearly designed this to be in opposition to people wanting to grieve over 9/11. He did so by claiming far higher casualties than the WTC 9/11 and also by mentioning the US involvement.
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On September 12 2011 01:40 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +Believe me, Argentinian didn't have a good time under Videla. I bet they didn't have a better time than Romanians under Ceausescu. Your imperialism has been just as shameful, devastating, disgusting and immoral than the Soviet one. No matter how hard you try to make the two equivalent, the Communist system was far more shameful, devastating, disgusting, and immoral. Show nested quote +Now, people who say "Oh we did horribly wrong, but some other people did horrible things too so let's not recognize it, let's not apologize and let's not admit anything at all" have suspicious moral values. If you justification for America's crimes is that Soviet Russia was wrong, I'm sorry to tell you that you won't go far. There will always be someone worse (and I don't think Soviet Russia was even worse in terms of international policy).
I don't recall any Americans saying we shouldn't recognize where we made mistakes or did things from the start that were wrong. The problem is that people like you present a double standard and demand that the US admit that it was actually worse (which is total nonsense) and anyone who objects is immediately subjected to your bad relativistic and childish arguments ("Saying someone else did it too doesn't make it right!" Is this fourth grade? We're talking about nations not people, the world is a little more complex). I would never say the USSR was brutal and evil just because of the revenge they took on Germany in 1945, the Germans attacked them and were brutal and evil towards them first and were literally trying to wipe them out. And consequently I'm not going to condemn the US for "propping up" right-wing dictatorships instead of allowing left-wing dictatorships to be propped up by the Soviet Union. It wasn't the US that lied at the end of WWII and occupied half of Europe, it wasn't the US that poured money and agents into Greece and Turkey first, it wasn't the US that caused Kim il Sung to invade South Korea in 1950, it wasn't the US that blockaded West Berlin in 1948, it wasn't the US that shelled Quemoy and Matsu, and it wasn't the US that killed ~100,000,000 people through deliberate starvation, mass shootings, labor to death in gulags, beatings from a Red Guard mob, etc. Bolded part essentially strips you of all credibility to speak on the subject. I'm sorry the blood-soaked animals you like so much lost and aren't able to kill tens of millions of people anymore. That's how I feel about your minimization of Communist atrocities and exaggeration of "American" ones. You're talking about yourself, you realize that right? The good Communist. Black and white. All that stuff.
Man. Either we know what we talk about, either we stop this discussion.
When has Argentina being under the threat of a Soviet style dictatorship? Never. They didn't even have a left wing government when the military took the power. They were some risks, because that's what people wanted, and so the "land of the free" (and of hypocrisy) helped the far right generals to take the power and to keep it. That was preventive.
Now, Allende was democratically elected and never wanted to imitate the Leninist dictatorships. Just that you know.
I'll stop this discussion right now, because it's a topic related to my history, and I'll really start being rude. And don't say "yeah, you are biased and emotional". I'll try to explain you:
If your parents had had to flee a country because young "leftists" or alleged "leftists" were threatened at any moment to be arbitrarily tortured and thrown alive from helicopter to the sea because they were "subversive", and that they left behind them friends or family who disappeared and got killed, all of that with the full support and help of an other country, and that you saw some clueless guy from that country saying that it was not that bad and it was justified, you know how you would feel?
You would feel like puking. I'm out of here.
Ps: oh, and by the way:
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/04/10/kissingers-1976-cable-reopens-controversy-over-operation-condo/
http://www.fff.org/blog/jghblog2010-04-12.asp (that can help too)
Concerning Wikipedia: What a surprise the internal inquiries found out that CIA was guilty of nothing.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On September 12 2011 01:42 muse5187 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:39 imallinson wrote:On September 12 2011 01:34 BlackJack wrote:On September 12 2011 01:26 imallinson wrote:On September 12 2011 01:20 BlackJack wrote:On September 12 2011 01:16 imallinson wrote:On September 12 2011 01:12 BlackJack wrote:On September 12 2011 01:05 Marais wrote:
The chilean 9/11 is much more important than the american one for some people (mostly chileans). But looks like it cant even be discussed becose of the american superiority complex. Has nothing to do with superiority complex. After the Japanese tsunami some Americans tried to "honor" the lives lost at Pearl Harbor. Other Americans shouted down those people, too. That was really different. The people saying stuff after the Japanese tsunami were saying that it was payback for Pearl Harbour, saying the people deserved to die (also happened after Japan beat the US in the women's football world cup). No one in this thread is saying the people in the WTC deserved to die. Some of them were saying those things and some of them weren't. But they were all completely classless. I know it was a vocal minority saying this. My point is it is a stupid comparison to make in the first place. My point wasn't that it was a vocal minority. My point was that not everyone was so forward in saying "Japan deserved this." Some people were simply saying "let's commemorate those that died on Pearl Harbor." Then you realize that is also a passive-agressive douchebag thing to say even though there is nothing inherently wrong with the sentence "let's commemorate those that died on Pearl Harbor" OK point taken, but I'm missing how the Pearl Harbour comparison is relevant. Saying "Let's commemorate those that died on Pearl Harbor", right after the tsunami was a thinly veiled way of saying that they are happy the tsunami happened because of what the japanese did at pearl harbor. It's overt douchebaggery.
Ahhh ok I see. I still don't think this thread has anything to do with saying America deserved this because of what happened in Chile. It's about remembering a terrible tragedy that happened just like the US 9/11 thread.
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I feel like this was a direct way to diminish 9/11/2001, but whatever. Then again, Nixon was president during this time and we all know what he did. It's sad that Chile had to go through 17 years of military rule.
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On September 12 2011 01:44 dogabutila wrote:
What the hell is a 38th year anniversary? Do you do this every year or just on years corresponding to 10th (20th, 25th...) anniversary for 9/11. I don't know anybody that does things for a 38th year anni, and doesn't do it every year.
I DO know a lot of people who do special things for dates like multiples of 5 or 10.
Fuck off with your agenda. Pretend to be as self righteous as you want with your bullshit "oh noes I didn't mean to do anything" but we arn't buying it. So lastly, fuck you OP.
Hey, will you not have a 9/11 anniversary in 2013, the 40th year of the Chilean anniversary? So on 9/11/2013 we will promise not to talk about the WTC or terorrism but instead keep the national discourse about American foreign policy in South America, the terror of Pinochet and the hero that was Allende?
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On September 12 2011 01:47 Bleak wrote:
You might aswell check the September 12 Turkish Coup d'etat aswell. The numbers are pretty much similar, 600.000 people detained, tortured in inhumane ways, a lot of people have disappeared and died.
EDIT: The demon who caused these events also justified it by "protecting the country against communism threat". It's all about US and how to kiss their ass, no matter what you do to your people. There were people who've gone mad due to the treatment they've got from the jailers, some committed suicide because they couldn't take it anymore. And who do you blame? Communism. Fucking brilliant.
It's anniversary is tomorrow. A dark, dark spot in our history.
Sorry but that coup isn't at a convenient date for someone trying to make a point so it will be ignored.
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On September 12 2011 01:46 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:31 KentHenry wrote:
I'm glad Pinochet overthrew the political leaders of a country heading in the direction of communism. Many people may dislike Pinochet and call him a mass murderer, but he really did bring back democracy to Chile in a time of need; but not in a civil way, which sometimes being civil gets you nowhere. Bravo. I am really glad that you are speaking your mind about this. It lets everyone know what kind of a person you are. Sad fact is that you aren't the only one who feels this to be true. I'd say 50% of the americans who know about the war crimes will probably feel the same way. Unfortunately 90% of these 50% are political leaders, intelligence agents, military officers - basically your ruling elite. Also I am impressed by the level of doucheness displayed by people who are arguing over the number of casualties of Pinochet. Does the fact that ONLY 3000 people dying at his hands making him less of a monster? Does it matter that less people died in Chile than in WTC? Do you see people arguing over the casualty figures from WTC? Unfuckingbelievable.
Population of USA as of census 2011 307,006,550.
307,006,550 / 2 = 153,503,275 ( Number of people you covered with your first blanket statement)
153,503,275 * 0.90 = 135,152,948 ( Number of "ruling elite")
![[image loading]](http://i53.tinypic.com/b874ig.jpg)
Good numbers you got there. Why don't you use a bigger blanket statement.
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On September 12 2011 01:53 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:47 Bleak wrote:
You might aswell check the September 12 Turkish Coup d'etat aswell. The numbers are pretty much similar, 600.000 people detained, tortured in inhumane ways, a lot of people have disappeared and died.
EDIT: The demon who caused these events also justified it by "protecting the country against communism threat". It's all about US and how to kiss their ass, no matter what you do to your people. There were people who've gone mad due to the treatment they've got from the jailers, some committed suicide because they couldn't take it anymore. And who do you blame? Communism. Fucking brilliant.
It's anniversary is tomorrow. A dark, dark spot in our history. Sorry but that coup isn't at a convenient date for someone trying to make a point so it will be ignored.
Hmm, serious? Or irony? Frankly I'm confused 
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On September 12 2011 01:19 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:15 DeepElemBlues wrote:Plz keep coming with stuff like this. People need to know more about the crap that western countries have done since WW2. Right after WW2 the US was so insanely powerful they could basically do whatever they wanted so they did. Remember MCcarthy remember truman. It's the way the world works. It is surprising that the only crap the US got back are the bombing of the embassies in Nairobi and Dar Es Salaam and 9/11. Things in South America could have turned out a lot worse for the US. I would not find it surprising at all if there were radical left wing terrorist groups rooted in South America targeting US citizens/embassies but it seems there aren't and most South American governments function relatively well compared to the way they did in the 70's and 80's.
A little list
Cuba - x
Guatemala - x
Nicaragua - x
Panama
Colombia - x
Chile - x
Argentina - x
And that's just south America
Iraq - x
Iran - x
Afghanistan - x
Pakistan - y
Saudi Arabia*
Cambodia - x
Vietnam - x Countries where US involvement was response to Soviet involvement are marked with an X. Pakistan is marked with a Y because the US and Pakistan had good relations until the USSR was gone and jihadis moved on to their next target, which was already picked as the US. Saudi Arabia has an asterisk because Saudis either liked or didn't care one way or the other about the Saudi-US relationship until Osama bin Laden got his panties twisted about us (and not him) saving the country from Saddam Hussein in 1991. But let's look at what countries were "messed with" by the other side: Afghanistan Albania Angola Argentina Armenia Austria Azerbaijan Belarus Bulgaria Cambodia Chile China Colombia Congo Cuba Czech Republic and Slovakia Egypt Finland Georgia Germany Greece Grenada Guatemala Hungary India Indonesia Iran Iraq Italy Japan Kazakhstan Korea Kyrgyzstan Laos Latvia Lithuania Macedonia Moldova Mongolia Montenegro Nicaragua Philippines Poland Romania Russia Serbia Syria Turkey Ukraine Uzbekistan Vietnam The list of countries the US military/CIA messed with big time is pretty much endless. I don't know much about Africa but I bet its ugly. I am not even mentioning the list of dictators/authoritarian regimes that were allowed to rule their country without the west uttering any word of protest to their conduct. It is critical to understand the extent of american foreign operations ( covert and not covert, military and financial ) and the unrivalled power they had trough the 50's,60's,70's, 80's and 90's to understand 9/11 and put it in perspective. Pure fantasy thinking. Literally every sentence contains at least one inaccuracy, some of them very egregious. Look, my mother had to flee Argentina because of the fascist dictatorship your country installed and supported. It had nothing to do with Soviets. Chile had nothing to do with Soviet either. It had to do with a democratic left wing government which was bad for the american companies that exploited Chile at that time. Period. When you guys can recognize your mistakes, and your crimes, you will be a much greater country. I don't have a shame to look at what France did in Algeria and admit it was monstrous. And I won't try to find excuses about the "other side" or whatever. Now if we take your second list and apply to same criteria to the first one, it's basically the whole world.
I'm sorry but saying there was nothing to do with soviet union and/or that the country was not in terrible shape its not true.
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Can't an Italian commemorate a random day in Chilean history that Chileans don't even commemorate, and one that happens to coincide with the commemoration of 9/11, without people accusing him of having ulterior motives?
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On September 12 2011 01:54 muse5187 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 01:46 redviper wrote:On September 12 2011 01:31 KentHenry wrote:
I'm glad Pinochet overthrew the political leaders of a country heading in the direction of communism. Many people may dislike Pinochet and call him a mass murderer, but he really did bring back democracy to Chile in a time of need; but not in a civil way, which sometimes being civil gets you nowhere. Bravo. I am really glad that you are speaking your mind about this. It lets everyone know what kind of a person you are. Sad fact is that you aren't the only one who feels this to be true. I'd say 50% of the americans who know about the war crimes will probably feel the same way. Unfortunately 90% of these 50% are political leaders, intelligence agents, military officers - basically your ruling elite. Also I am impressed by the level of doucheness displayed by people who are arguing over the number of casualties of Pinochet. Does the fact that ONLY 3000 people dying at his hands making him less of a monster? Does it matter that less people died in Chile than in WTC? Do you see people arguing over the casualty figures from WTC? Unfuckingbelievable. Population of USA as of census 2011 307,006,550. 307,006,550 / 2 = 153,503,275 ( Number of people you covered with your first blanket statement) 153,503,275 * 0.90 = 135,152,948 ( Number of "ruling elite") Good numbers you got there. Why don't you use a bigger blanket statement.
Thank god the American public school system is so awesome that you while you guys have no reading skills atleast you know how to make charts!
I said "50% of the americans who know about the war crimes" and "90% of that 50%".
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Why aren't people getting banned here? seriously, its the same people derailing this thread over and over again in an attempt to close it.
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Not sure why so much hate towards the OP for pointing out something that most people have very little idea about, and yet is still an important date in the annals of history. Yeah, sure 9/11 was a decade ago, but doesn't this also have have a lesson to teach us about the dangers of suppressing democracy for ideological gain or for the purpose of protecting one's own interests, just with the WTC attacks and their own terrible aftermath (suppression of civil rights, situation in middle east, fostering of hatred and prejudice ect.).
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On September 12 2011 01:47 Holophonist wrote:
I never said TL is an american-based forum. But clearly the vast majority of people on this forum are at least english-speaking and it makes a WTC 9/11 post far more appropriate than a Chilean-based one. No? Anybody care to argue the ratio of Americans to Chileans on TL? or are you done with strawman arguments?
I'll bite.
Also, 9/11 is a sad day in AMERICAN history. If TL has a Chilean-based forum, post this there. Let me put it this way... would I go to Chile and tell people to mourn for our 9/11? No, I wouldn't. THAT'S the difference.
Ok, so you emphasize "AMERICAN history", and tell people to post this in a "Chilean-based forum", directly implying that TL is an American forum, as "AMERICAN history" belongs here, but things related to Chile should be in a Chilean based forum.
Then you say that you wouldn't go to Chile and tell them to mourn for the WTC attacks, implying that making this post here is equivalent to going to America and telling them to mourn for this tragedy.
So, there's no straw-man here, as you directly implied that this is an American forum, or at least centered on America.
Now the next points:
But clearly the vast majority of people on this forum are at least english-speaking and it makes a WTC 9/11 post far more appropriate than a Chilean-based one. No? Anybody care to argue the ratio of Americans to Chileans on TL?
This is an English forum, so of course the vast majority of people on it are English speaking. However, could you explain how this makes the WTC attacks a more appropriate subject? Because the attacks happened in an English speaking country? That's pitiful. We should obviously close all threads related to happenings in Non-English speaking European countries, Asia, and Africa. If a thread is made for discussion, I don't see the relevance in the language of the country it is concerned with.
Next, what does the ratio of Americans to Chileans matter for threads like these? If Americans are in the majority, then we can't speak of things besides the United States? Also, are people who are not Chilean not allowed to discuss or take interest in this topic?
As TL is an INTERNATIONAL forum, people are in general interested in INTERNATIONAL events, not just American ones, or ones that happen in English-speaking countries.
Your arguments are weak, and don't make sense.
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Man. Either we know what we talk about, either we stop this discussion.
Are you really going to go that way.
When has Argentina being under the threat of a Soviet style dictatorship? Never. They didn't even have a left wing government when the military took the power. They were some risks, because that's what people wanted, and so the "land of the free" (and of hypocrisy) helped the far right generals to take the power and to keep it. That was preventive.
You mean Chile, and what you're saying is inaccurate.
Now, Allende was democratically elected and never wanted to imitate the Leninist dictatorships. Just that you know.
Not only inaccurate, but dishonest. Allende was moving in an authoritarian direction, not surprising behavior for South/Latin American leaders regardless of their being "left" or "right." Saying he didn't want imitate Leninist dictatorship doesn't mean he didn't want to imitate dictatorship in general.
No I don't think he was moving toward a full-on one-party Communist state, but an authoritarian government of the type Venezuela has today? Yes.
If your parents had had to flee a country because young "leftists" or alleged "leftists" were threatened at any moment to be arbitrarily tortured and thrown alive from helicopter to the sea because they were "subversive", and that they left behind them friends or family who disappeared and got killed, all of that with the full support and help of an other country, and that you saw some clueless guy from that country saying that it was not that bad and it was justified, you know how you would feel?
"The full support and help of an other country" is just your fantasy land.
I am seeing some clueless guy saying some of the most horrible things people have ever done to one another weren't that bad, and you're right, it makes me want to puke that you'd say "Soviet[s] not that bad" while bitching about the US.
If your parents had fled the USSR - oh wait, that was almost impossible - and everyone they knew who stayed behind had starved to death thanks to the State stealing all their grain or shooting them when they resisted their grain being stolen, would you feel the way you do now about who was wrong and who was right? Of course not.
So you're posting stuff about 3 years after the coup, when I already said that the real US crime was supporting Pinochet after the coup?
Look, my mother had to flee Argentina because of the fascist dictatorship your country installed and supported.
You mean the fascist dictatorship in Argentina that had been around since 1945? America installed that?
Where do you get your "facts" from, back issues of Pravda? Honestly.
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