EPTThe Warp Mechanic and How It Broke Protoss - Page 17
| Forum Index > Closed |
|
Randomaccount#128098
United States411 Posts
| ||
|
susySquark
United States1692 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:28 Seldentar wrote: I hope the purpose of this thread is to offer alternatives to the race mechanics of protoss rather than to weaken it, because protoss is by far the weakest race atm as it stands both statistically and by simple observation watching pro streams/tournaments. My main goal was to show why Protoss is struggling, not to suggest how to fix it. My small suggestion was a defensive structure available after gate (shield battery). There are many ways to help give back a defenders advantage, feel free to think about them. | ||
|
Sevenofnines
United States167 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:10 roymarthyup wrote: protoss wouldnt stand a chance without warpgates because removing warpgates is a NERF. a strong nerf at that if you removed warpgates, but instead made cybercores have a 50/50 upgrade that said "all warpgates now produce units 300% faster, units are the same cost, buildtimes are just reduced by75%" then protoss would still be the same early game but after getting that upgrade they would probably be able to do the sime timing attacks against zerg (maybe even stronger) while having a defenders advantage as well the point of this post is gateway units are not made weaker to compensate for warpgates INSTEAD, gateway unit BUILDTIMES are made longer to compensate for warpgates. and the cooldown on warping in is considered to be a buildtime. essentially, the rate at which each production building can create gateway units is what blizzard uses to balance the strength of warpgates, not by making gateway units weaker You are taking a far too limited view on warpgates. Yes of course the warpgate cooldown basically acts like a "buildtime". Thus over a very long period of time, the amount of units made via warpgates vs queues or whatever will be approximately the same. That isn't the issue with warpgates. The issue at hand is WHEN and WHERE those units become available. Warpgates get you the units up front (not X seconds later) and wherever you happen to need them. It is this tactical advantage that is the true power of warpgates, and that advantage has to be balanced out somewhere else. To put it another way, gateway units are being made weaker to compensate for the tactical advantages of warpgates, not their build cooldowns. The reason I bought up how Toss would fair without warpgates is because some folks are saying that there isn't ANY connection between gateway unit strength and warpgates. If that's the case, then you could just remove it and gateway units should perform similarly. OF COURSE I know its a nerf. I mentioned that SPECIFICALLY because its a massive nerf to gateway units. This means there MUST be a connection between warpgates and the strength of gateway units because the removal of warpgates is a huge nerf to gateway units. If there was no connection at all, it wouldn't be a nerf. | ||
|
0neder
United States3733 Posts
The Reaver was a harass unit, but the colossus isn't because its splash sucks and it's too expensive. Gee, maybe replace the Colossus with a robotics splash units good for drop harass? Hoped for HotS changes: Shield Battery thing Faster Carriers Colossus replacement Save maybe a new unit for LotV | ||
|
Diks
Belgium1880 Posts
![[image loading]](http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/4/3704/25653.jpg) This beautifull thing should be added in HoTs. (Offensive battery might be totally imba though) You have quite some valid points. | ||
|
Seldentar
United States888 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:31 susySquark wrote: My main goal was to show why Protoss is struggling, not to suggest how to fix it. My small suggestion was a defensive structure available after gate (shield battery). There are many ways to help give back a defenders advantage, feel free to think about them. Ahh I didn't read much of your main post, so I wasn't sure what your goal was. Anyway I love your idea and I definitely hope Blizzard considers it | ||
|
Skarmory
112 Posts
| ||
|
Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
I would really like to see how a defensive shield battery would do. I'm not too sure I would be happy with offensive batteries tho. | ||
|
roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:34 Sevenofnines wrote: You are taking a far too limited view on warpgates. Yes of course the warpgate cooldown basically acts like a "buildtime". Thus over a very long period of time, the amount of units made via warpgates vs queues or whatever will be approximately the same. That isn't the issue with warpgates. The issue at hand is WHEN and WHERE those units become available. Warpgates get you the units up front (not X seconds later) and wherever you happen to need them. It is this tactical advantage that is the true power of warpgates, and that advantage has to be balanced out somewhere else. To put it another way, gateway units are being made weaker to compensate for the tactical advantages of warpgates, not their build cooldowns. The reason I bought up how Toss would fair without warpgates is because some folks are saying that there isn't ANY connection between gateway unit strength and warpgates. If that's the case, then you could just remove it and gateway units should perform similarly. OF COURSE I know its a nerf. I mentioned that SPECIFICALLY because its a massive nerf to gateway units. This means there MUST be a connection between warpgates and the strength of gateway units because the removal of warpgates is a huge nerf to gateway units. If there was no connection at all, it wouldn't be a nerf. if you did removed warpgates right now in the current game, essentially what that means is protoss defensive power STAYS THE SAME, but their offensive power GOES DOWN. this assumes buildtimes on the gateway are altered to let toss get out just as many defensive units as he could get with warpgates theres no connection between warpgates and gateway unit strength there IS a connection between warpgates the amount of units blizzard designed warpgates/gateways to be able to produce per minute i agree with you, the fact that gateways can warp in anywhere is the "problem" with the warpgate concept this means blizzard cannot make balance out defenders advantage and protoss aggression at the same time right now, protoss defensive abilities are underpowered. protoss has a weaker defenders advantage than they should. but this doesnt mean protoss units are weaker than other races units in a pure UNIT COST and UNIT STRENGTH and FOOD vs FOOD comparison, i do not believe stalkers and zealots and sentries are weaker then other races T1 units. and I believe in all situations where a protoss is being defensive, you COULD "just remove warpgates" and gateway units would perform similarly... however ONLY in defensive scenarios would this be true. if you removed warpgates, protoss would suck because the enemy would know there is zero chance of being in danger of aggression so the enemy would play the game knowing he doesnt have to fear aggression. warpgates are the source of protoss aggression, if you remove that, protoss would suck. HOWEVER, thats simply logical that removing warpgates would make protoss suck because a race with no aggressive options is sucky but its not because protoss units are weaker, its because protoss would no longer be able to move those units across the map instantly I believe in every scenario where a protoss is being defensive, if warpgates were removed the gateway units WOULD perform similarly as long as gateway buildtimes were adjusted to allow the protoss to crank out just as many units to defend with as before | ||
|
FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:52 Roggay wrote: Interesting points, and well thought. I would really like to see how a defensive shield battery would do. I'm not too sure I would be happy with offensive batteries tho. Make them cost something like 100 minerals/25 gas, so that they can't be used early on, require a core... it's not as if Protoss shields don't charge as is fairly fast, to actually make use during battle you'd have to build it super close up front. | ||
|
FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:54 roymarthyup wrote: if you did removed warpgates right now in the current game, essentially what that means is protoss defensive power STAYS THE SAME, but their offensive power GOES DOWN. this assumes buildtimes on the gateway are altered to let toss get out just as many defensive units as he could get with warpgates theres no connection between warpgates and gateway unit strength there IS a connection between warpgates the amount of units blizzard designed warpgates/gateways to be able to produce per minute i agree with you, the fact that gateways can warp in anywhere is the "problem" with the warpgate concept this means blizzard cannot make balance out defenders advantage and protoss aggression at the same time right now, protoss defensive abilities are underpowered. protoss has a weaker defenders advantage than they should. but this doesnt mean protoss units are weaker than other races units in a pure UNIT COST and UNIT STRENGTH and FOOD vs FOOD comparison, i do not believe stalkers and zealots and sentries are weaker then other races T1 units. and I believe in all situations where a protoss is being defensive, you COULD "just remove warpgates" and gateway units would perform similarly... however ONLY in defensive scenarios would this be true. if you removed warpgates, protoss would suck because the enemy would know there is zero chance of being in danger of aggression so the enemy would play the game knowing he doesnt have to fear aggression. warpgates are the source of protoss aggression, if you remove that, protoss would suck. HOWEVER, thats simply logical that removing warpgates would make protoss suck because a race with no aggressive options is sucky but its not because protoss units are weaker, its because protoss would no longer be able to move those units across the map instantly I believe in every scenario where a protoss is being defensive, if warpgates were removed the gateway units WOULD perform similarly as long as gateway buildtimes were adjusted to allow the protoss to crank out just as many units to defend with as before Even if buildtimes are the same switching to warpgate allows you to get out an additional round of units^^ | ||
|
Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:28 AlBundy wrote: Are you a video game designer? I trust david kim and his team. Also HotS is coming soon, and we know nothing about it except that there will be multiplayer balance changes, as well as new units. There's no point theorycrafting and speculating when big changes are around the corner. If David Kim was perfect there would be no need for balance changes and new units. The point is of this is not only to keep the game balanced but to keep early macro capabilities good for P which is not working well in TvP. | ||
|
roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote: Even if buildtimes are the same switching to warpgate allows you to get out an additional round of units^^ correct. which is why i wrote ""as long as gateway buildtimes were adjusted to allow the protoss to crank out just as many units to defend with as before"" this implies that buildtimes must somehow be adjusted so the "extra round" from warpgates is incorporated into the numbers you are correct, the extra round is part of warpgate balance. if warpgates were removed, gateway units would only perform similarly as long as gateway buildtimes were adjusted to allow the protoss to crank out just as many units to defend with as before (extra round included) | ||
|
Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:55 FabledIntegral wrote: Even if buildtimes are the same switching to warpgate allows you to get out an additional round of units^^ You could make the gateway -> WG morph time 30 seconds. | ||
|
Hikari
1914 Posts
| ||
|
roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On September 09 2011 07:00 Eppa! wrote: You could make the gateway -> WG morph time 30 seconds. and what would that fix? were talking about something complete way off from your point some people are saying they think protoss t1 units are weaker because warpgates exist im saying zealots and stalkers and sentries are not "made weaker" to compensate for warpgates instead, blizzard balances warpgates so protoss offensive abilities are not oveprowered, but the BAD RESULT OF THIS is that protoss as a race has zero defenders advantage. if you somehow gave protoss defenders advantage by making warpgates make more units, it would make their offensive ability overpowered my point is that even if warpgates were removed, protoss still would defend just as well (as long as gateway build times are somehow adjusted to allow just as many units to come out) | ||
|
susySquark
United States1692 Posts
On September 09 2011 07:01 Hikari wrote: Shields often delete extremely fast, a shield battery may not necessary be "the thing" which protoss need for defense. I would also prefer something which repairs protoss mechanical units: because right now that immortal that only has 10 hp left would forever be at 10hp. Strangely true. Never realized that, Terran with medivacs and repair, any unit that gets damaged can eventually be like new. Zerg regen same thing. Toss is the only race that has permanent damage done to units. | ||
|
Gummy
United States2180 Posts
On September 09 2011 07:05 susySquark wrote: Strangely true. Never realized that, Terran with medivacs and repair, any unit that gets damaged can eventually be like new. Zerg regen same thing. Toss is the only race that has permanent damage done to units. I'm a BW purist, and I think this makes sense based on the lore and balance. You don't need to repair things. Just regenerate the shields and hope for the best. (plague T_T ) | ||
|
ForeverSleep
Canada920 Posts
On September 09 2011 06:42 Diks wrote: This beautifull thing should be added in HoTs. (Offensive battery might be totally imba though) You have quite some valid points. however, what if a limit was placed? what if the battery can only charge up to half the hit points of the unit using it (its only a suggestion), and reset the shield recharge cooldown (as when they are hit by a unit, but exemple), or even induce an effect on the unit that would prevent shield recharge for a few seconds (say the battery recharges some of your shields, then you cant recharge your shields for a few seconds because of the effect. Or even, you can only recharge your shields when they are completely down, battery recharges your shields, then you cant recharge sheilds for a longer time because of that effect).What I am saying is, it is always possible a few things to "limit" the use of that battery so it doesnt break the game in an offensive way (or give the battery a relatively long build time and/or a "kinda" big cost, so the battery would be essentially used for a defensive play, but would then give a not bad reward for a player risking an offensive use out of it. Remember, thats all a bunch of ideas I am throwing out there. | ||
|
Fealthas
607 Posts
If added Shield batteries should work like immobile medivacs that cost maybe about 150/50 ?Maybe with a healrate of 4 shields per energy? It would be interesting in PvP as others mentioned, might make cannon expanding viable. +1 for Well though out post. ;D | ||
| ||
