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On September 08 2011 19:07 MCMXVI wrote:
Good read, and I agree. Not only is it easier for terran to macro than for protoss and zerg (warp in and larva injects instead of queue queue queue), but to your question; how should they make offensive warp-ins weaker? Units spawn with less shields or armor or something?
Easier for Terran? Yes. But less rewarding, inject + warp gates/chrono are way better when fully utilized
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On September 09 2011 01:49 arsenic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:43 mrlie3 wrote:
OP already suggested a perfect solution to this problem - bring back the Shield Battery, strengthen gateway units, and weaken high-tech units (eg. Immortal obviously since Immortal with proxy Shield Battery means imba) This would not be a perfect solution... The Shield Battery would be insanely strong offensively, especially when coupled with things like Blink Stalker pressure/rush. ...
Not if the Shield Battery is the Nexus. Granted, you could build an offensive Nexus, but then the other player deserves what's coming to him if you can somehow take advantage of that, just like an offensive planetary.
I personnaly think that a permanent aura around the nexus that removes the shield recharge cooldown while being attacked would be sufficient to give the defender an advantage without drastically comprimising the non mirror matchups since it would be such a marginal advantage.
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Here's what I would like to see:
Nexus now has a pylon-alike-radius
When the warptech research is done you can warp in at your nexus. You can no longer warp in at pylons.
Something you can do though is warp in at warp prism. Making the warp prism more unique and more of an harrasment tool it can also be used in battles so you can get quicker reinforcements but it's risky to do as the warp prism is somewhat easy to kill and it comes from the robo.
Now the game would need to be re-designed a bit but I think it would be better if they did what I just described and "start over". This would make PvP a lot funnier and defenders advantage would apply in all matchups.
Then again, this would need to be tested and you would need to lower the warpgate research and almost start over but I think that protoss would benefit from this in the long run
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Interesting write up, I never really thought about it that way before.
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On September 09 2011 03:11 PhiliBiRD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 19:07 MCMXVI wrote:
Good read, and I agree. Not only is it easier for terran to macro than for protoss and zerg (warp in and larva injects instead of queue queue queue), but to your question; how should they make offensive warp-ins weaker? Units spawn with less shields or armor or something? Easier for Terran? Yes. But less rewarding, inject + warp gates/chrono are way better when fully utilized
It's easier for terran now when players haven't gotten perfect macro but when you see Zergs landing all the injects, making units so you get more larva. When people start doing that you will see the true potential of the Zerg race....
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Protoss will definitely get form of shield battery, just not until the expansion =/
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I agree with most aspects of this post, and I have been saying for a very long time now that the Warp mechanic is the entire reason why PvP is so volatile and Gateway units have to be relatively meh until mid game at least otherwise the other races could easily just be overrun in the first 9 minutes (still can with 4gate if you don't defend properly).
The other issue with warpgates is that you are front loading unit production which is EXTREMELY powerful combined with proxy pylons nullifying rush distances. For example if a protoss is 6 gating a zerg natural and every combat unit dies but 3 stalkers, the protoss will have 3 stalkers and 6 zealots to attack the mineral line for 15 in game seconds before any amount of zerglings pop from the hatchery. This is what makes the 4 gate such a powerful rush is the 15-20 seconds from when the protoss receives the unit the pay for and between when the terran/zerg receives their unit they payed for. The mechanic as a whole requires limiting of the protoss gateway units otherwise protoss would be overpowered.
Warp gates are also the reason that KA had to be removed because given than it takes 45 seconds to make a ghost and 50 to make an infestor if KA was still in existance by the time they came out of the barracks/hatch the HT would be at 100 energy.
In general the mechanic is polarizing meaning that it will either be too good or not good enough and honestly the ONLY way I could ever see it being balanced is if instead of a cooldown warping a unit in took its build time in a gateway to warp in and remove the whole double damage to warping units business and if you kill a warping unit it just gets canceled. This way you retain the warp gate's ability to reduce rally time but don't add the 15-20 seconds of time where protoss is simply ahead in units over their terran/zerg counterparts and this would actually allow gateway units to be semi decent.
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On September 09 2011 03:12 Coincoin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 01:49 arsenic wrote:On September 09 2011 01:43 mrlie3 wrote:
OP already suggested a perfect solution to this problem - bring back the Shield Battery, strengthen gateway units, and weaken high-tech units (eg. Immortal obviously since Immortal with proxy Shield Battery means imba) This would not be a perfect solution... The Shield Battery would be insanely strong offensively, especially when coupled with things like Blink Stalker pressure/rush. ... Not if the Shield Battery is the Nexus. Granted, you could build an offensive Nexus, but then the other player deserves what's coming to him if you can somehow take advantage of that, just like an offensive planetary. I personnaly think that a permanent aura around the nexus that removes the shield recharge cooldown while being attacked would be sufficient to give the defender an advantage without drastically comprimising the non mirror matchups since it would be such a marginal advantage.
and thus ends all forms of mineral line harass as probes recharge shields faster than harass units can deal to them.
srsly?
I like the shield battery concept, but a more hashed out one would probably be better than this.
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Is this threat just about PvP?
I was just about to post wondering how so many people can seriously argue about this until i realized this was only about PvP.
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I have been preaching this mentality since the beta, I agree 100%.
Only thing I've differed on is that I think that the actual units warping in should take 10s to warpin instead of 5s, and have the gateway --> warpgate transition take longer (so you don't shit out an extra round of units early on). Then you can rebuff Protoss accordingly, faster gateways, lower gateway buildtimes, etc. See a possible resurgence of nonproxied twogate PvZ.
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Threads like this never end up with agreement, so I won't bother to talk about the balance in detail but it's an interesting idea. Haven't thought of it like this, actually explains a lot that I was thinking about.
Good read
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OK this might have been said already because i dont have time to read everything but make it to where you can only build a pylon within the radius of another pylon. and have the nexus have a pylon radius. This would mean no proxy stargates etc but it seems like it would take away some of the early game advantage. i think pylon radius would have to increase again tho and gateway units would prolly need some kind of buffs
im gold btw so feel free to tell me im wrong lol
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Shield Batteries are an EXCELLENT idea! Shield Battery + Immortal = bliss
Think about it: 1 battery at ramp, supreme defenders advantage vs 4gate. Stalkers can actually trade efficiently vs roaches in a straight out brawl. Immortals will live up to their name for once.
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I think that the best option as stated is to decrease the time of warp in near a nexus and increase it as it goes away. this way it would nullify 4gate in pvp becasue if the defender has the clear advantage then why do it?
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On September 09 2011 03:37 Selvik wrote:
OK this might have been said already because i dont have time to read everything but make it to where you can only build a pylon within the radius of another pylon. and have the nexus have a pylon radius. This would mean no proxy stargates etc but it seems like it would take away some of the early game advantage. i think pylon radius would have to increase again tho and gateway units would prolly need some kind of buffs
im gold btw so feel free to tell me im wrong lol
It sound weird at first (Pylon highway to enemy base in order to reinforce quickly lategame). But when you allow pylons to be build below warpprisms that would actually be pretty good.
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On September 09 2011 03:39 MrBarryObama wrote:
Shield Batteries are an EXCELLENT idea! Shield Battery + Immortal = bliss
Think about it: 1 battery at ramp, supreme defenders advantage vs 4gate. Stalkers can actually trade efficiently vs roaches in a straight out brawl. Immortals will live up to their name for once.
Holy shit... that would totally fix PvP I think...
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On September 09 2011 03:37 Selvik wrote:
OK this might have been said already because i dont have time to read everything but make it to where you can only build a pylon within the radius of another pylon. and have the nexus have a pylon radius. This would mean no proxy stargates etc but it seems like it would take away some of the early game advantage. i think pylon radius would have to increase again tho and gateway units would prolly need some kind of buffs
im gold btw so feel free to tell me im wrong lol
Would make warp in mostly pointless then. You have a huge liability in that giant line of pylons going to the enemy base. People would clear pylons like they clear creep tumors.
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I like the idea of Nexus recharging shields with chrono but the restriction of having the units near a Nexus for it work. The math I'm not sure but the player has the choice between recharge shields or lower cd/build time. Also, now a cost efficent army like Roaches or bioball needs to apply pressure on the toss to force him to burn chorno. The chorno makes the Protoss army cost efficent without being to overpower with warp-in mechanics.
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On September 09 2011 03:28 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 03:12 Coincoin wrote:On September 09 2011 01:49 arsenic wrote:On September 09 2011 01:43 mrlie3 wrote:
OP already suggested a perfect solution to this problem - bring back the Shield Battery, strengthen gateway units, and weaken high-tech units (eg. Immortal obviously since Immortal with proxy Shield Battery means imba) This would not be a perfect solution... The Shield Battery would be insanely strong offensively, especially when coupled with things like Blink Stalker pressure/rush. ... Not if the Shield Battery is the Nexus. Granted, you could build an offensive Nexus, but then the other player deserves what's coming to him if you can somehow take advantage of that, just like an offensive planetary. I personnaly think that a permanent aura around the nexus that removes the shield recharge cooldown while being attacked would be sufficient to give the defender an advantage without drastically comprimising the non mirror matchups since it would be such a marginal advantage. and thus ends all forms of mineral line harass as probes recharge shields faster than harass units can deal to them. srsly? I like the shield battery concept, but a more hashed out one would probably be better than this.
Or make it start with 50 energy like all casters. That way it needs to have been built for a while before it gets really strong.
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EPT
