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On May 26 2011 07:03 PrideTV wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 07:01 tehemperorer wrote:On May 26 2011 06:31 Belha wrote:
Pathetic, getting tired of this un-skilled nonsense strategies in a skill rewarding strategy game. For any terran reading this, please go to some Synystyr-like strategy threads to get a really fun and rewarding builds. It's totally a legit build; if P wants to say 16 nexus every game, there's gotta be a way for T to punish that. There has to be several options even for the early game to put pressure or macro up otherwise the game would be stale in other ways. Pride, your comment was kinda unclear to me, you mean 16 nexus with 2 probe harass would be less effective than just 16 nexusing? pulling 2 probes just might hurt u more than you think i believe.
Just curious have you ever evaluated or played against 2 probe harass? It forces Terran, that is already spending scvs to build, to pull at least 3 scvs to deal with the probes.
It goes like this from start of game: mine, then after first trip back pull 1 far patch probe to scout. On XNC he will get to your base before you lay down a 10 depot. Send 2nd probe after you place a 9 pylon, and already you are causing significant damage to Terran mining time not to mention the scvs who have been pulled already are wounded. The second probe shows up while you cb at 11-12 and 13-14, then 16 nexus 16 gate 17 pylon 18 gas. When the marine comes out u can do more than half his health in damage with 2 probes, if you send a 3rd you can kill the marine easily unless T pulls more scvs. Not only am I in your base even after marine is out, but if the marine takes just 2 probe shots (he is guaranteed to take it) he is now a 2 shot ATK from a Zeal...
uh maybe it would be better if I played against you, would you be up for that? Just curious since at the end of the day this is all theorycraft (I do 2 probe harass/16 nexus but haven't faced this particular 2rax)
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Can we have a rule to ban naming a guide after oneself when it has clearly no innovation whatsoever? And i'm sorry to see this work on GM level. And this is offtop, sorry.
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On May 26 2011 07:15 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 07:03 PrideTV wrote:On May 26 2011 07:01 tehemperorer wrote:On May 26 2011 06:31 Belha wrote:
Pathetic, getting tired of this un-skilled nonsense strategies in a skill rewarding strategy game. For any terran reading this, please go to some Synystyr-like strategy threads to get a really fun and rewarding builds. It's totally a legit build; if P wants to say 16 nexus every game, there's gotta be a way for T to punish that. There has to be several options even for the early game to put pressure or macro up otherwise the game would be stale in other ways. Pride, your comment was kinda unclear to me, you mean 16 nexus with 2 probe harass would be less effective than just 16 nexusing? pulling 2 probes just might hurt u more than you think i believe. Just curious have you ever evaluated or played against 2 probe harass? It forces Terran, that is already spending scvs to build, to pull at least 3 scvs to deal with the probes. It goes like this from start of game: mine, then after first trip back pull 1 far patch probe to scout. On XNC he will get to your base before you lay down a 10 depot. Send 2nd probe after you place a 9 pylon, and already you are causing significant damage to Terran mining time not to mention the scvs who have been pulled already are wounded. The second probe shows up while you cb at 11-12 and 13-14, then 16 nexus 16 gate 17 pylon 18 gas. When the marine comes out u can do more than half his health in damage with 2 probes, if you send a 3rd you can kill the marine easily unless T pulls more scvs. Not only am I in your base even after marine is out, but if the marine takes just 2 probe shots (he is guaranteed to take it) he is now a 2 shot ATK from a Zeal... uh maybe it would be better if I played against you, would you be up for that? Just curious since at the end of the day this is all theorycraft (I do 2 probe harass/16 nexus but haven't faced this particular 2rax)
ya sounds good
scdpride.599 add me
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On May 26 2011 07:17 Cheerio wrote:
Can we have a rule to ban naming a guide after oneself when it has clearly no innovation whatsoever? And i'm sorry to see this work on GM level. And this is offtop, sorry.
irrelevant..
If have nothing constructive to say, don't say it please. thanks!
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On May 26 2011 07:21 PrideTV wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 07:15 tehemperorer wrote:On May 26 2011 07:03 PrideTV wrote:On May 26 2011 07:01 tehemperorer wrote:On May 26 2011 06:31 Belha wrote:
Pathetic, getting tired of this un-skilled nonsense strategies in a skill rewarding strategy game. For any terran reading this, please go to some Synystyr-like strategy threads to get a really fun and rewarding builds. It's totally a legit build; if P wants to say 16 nexus every game, there's gotta be a way for T to punish that. There has to be several options even for the early game to put pressure or macro up otherwise the game would be stale in other ways. Pride, your comment was kinda unclear to me, you mean 16 nexus with 2 probe harass would be less effective than just 16 nexusing? pulling 2 probes just might hurt u more than you think i believe. Just curious have you ever evaluated or played against 2 probe harass? It forces Terran, that is already spending scvs to build, to pull at least 3 scvs to deal with the probes. It goes like this from start of game: mine, then after first trip back pull 1 far patch probe to scout. On XNC he will get to your base before you lay down a 10 depot. Send 2nd probe after you place a 9 pylon, and already you are causing significant damage to Terran mining time not to mention the scvs who have been pulled already are wounded. The second probe shows up while you cb at 11-12 and 13-14, then 16 nexus 16 gate 17 pylon 18 gas. When the marine comes out u can do more than half his health in damage with 2 probes, if you send a 3rd you can kill the marine easily unless T pulls more scvs. Not only am I in your base even after marine is out, but if the marine takes just 2 probe shots (he is guaranteed to take it) he is now a 2 shot ATK from a Zeal... uh maybe it would be better if I played against you, would you be up for that? Just curious since at the end of the day this is all theorycraft (I do 2 probe harass/16 nexus but haven't faced this particular 2rax) ya sounds good scdpride.599 add me
Cool man thanks I will hit you up later
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[The whole idea is to send all your scvs] <3
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I watched four of the replays.
In two of these games, this pull of this rush because your opponent scouts you last (Optikzero, ONEwbc) and in the other (Perfect) you pull it off because your opponent doesn't scout you, and you happen to be close positions on Shattered Temple. There is another cheese build that would have killed these guys just as easily: the 6 pool. I think Geiko's build is far superior for this reason, it cannot be scouted due to the low ground wall off.
The final game I watched with combatex is probably the best of bunch. At the Grandmasters level, he goes for a cannon rush, and you go for a 3 rax. Seriously? But it gets better, as the match begins you both talk about wanting to stream snipe destiny, and how upset you are that you didn't get matched up with him and instead got matched up with each other. You also tell of your recent stream sniping victims and how bad you "own them." My dream of becoming a Grandmaster literally just went down in flames, I have no desire to play games like this all of the time. It would be a complete waste my time. I'd rather play in the lower leagues and play real games than deal with these cheesy builds over and over. I can fully understand now why Idra rages when he plays people like this on the ladder.
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On May 26 2011 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:
I watched four of the replays.
In two of these games, you pull of this rush because your opponent scouts you last (Optikzero, ONEwbc) and in the other (Perfect) you pull it off because your opponent doesn't scout you, and you happen to be close positions on Shattered Temple. There is another cheese build that would killed these guys just as easily: the 6 pool. I think Geiko's build is far superior for this reason, it cannot be scouted due to the low ground wall off.
The final game I watched with combatex is probably the best of bunch. At the Grandmasters level, he goes for a cannon rush, and you go for a 3 rax. Seriously? But it gets better, as the match begins you both talk about wanting to stream snipe destiny, and how upset you are that you didn't get matched up with him and instead got matched up with each other. You also tell of your recent stream sniping victims and how bad you "own them." My dream of becoming a Grandmaster literally just went down in flames, I have no desire to play games like this all of the time. It would be a complete waste my time. I'd rather play in the lower leagues and play real games than deal with these cheesy builds over and over. I can fully understand now why Idra rages when he plays people like this on the ladder.
what is your definition of a real game? One where you both sit for 15 mins, macro up then attack?
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On May 26 2011 08:13 PrideTV wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 08:05 BronzeKnee wrote:
I watched four of the replays.
In two of these games, you pull of this rush because your opponent scouts you last (Optikzero, ONEwbc) and in the other (Perfect) you pull it off because your opponent doesn't scout you, and you happen to be close positions on Shattered Temple. There is another cheese build that would killed these guys just as easily: the 6 pool. I think Geiko's build is far superior for this reason, it cannot be scouted due to the low ground wall off.
The final game I watched with combatex is probably the best of bunch. At the Grandmasters level, he goes for a cannon rush, and you go for a 3 rax. Seriously? But it gets better, as the match begins you both talk about wanting to stream snipe destiny, and how upset you are that you didn't get matched up with him and instead got matched up with each other. You also tell of your recent stream sniping victims and how bad you "own them." My dream of becoming a Grandmaster literally just went down in flames, I have no desire to play games like this all of the time. It would be a complete waste my time. I'd rather play in the lower leagues and play real games than deal with these cheesy builds over and over. I can fully understand now why Idra rages when he plays people like this on the ladder.
what is your definition of a real game? One where you both sit for 15 mins, macro up then attack?
God please no, maybe once in a while but not EVERY SINGLE GAME
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I four gate a lot, but I do it after I scout as a strategic choice, not blindly stating "I'm going to 4 gate this game to counter all that Terran fast expanding junk." So I have no problem with games that aren't macro focused.
But the 6 pool and your build are totally dependant on your opponent making mistakes, cutting corners or rolling the dice on hoping they scout incorrectly, or do not scout at all. It has very little to do with your strategic skill since it is a blind strategy (ie I'm going to commit to this before I've even scouted) and often requires another blind strategy to hard counter. This just makes the game rock-paper-scissors. Thus you don't see actual improvements in your play when go up the ladder, you simply do a build that lacks strategic skill and focuses purely on small portion of the game, dragging better overall players down to a game that is unexpected and very simple, and often making it a dice roll. Even still, these builds have their place in a tourney series because if you know your opponent cut corners last game in scouting, doing one of these can punish scoutless builds. The same could be said when you repeatedly play someone on the ladder. But to blindly do is it not good and should be easily punishable (as any blind build should be). Imagine blindly banshee rushing every game, you wouldn't (shouldn't I should say) get into GM like that.
It is a bad mechanic for a RTS game as we saw Geiko go from mid-masters to #1 masters with a cheese build, and that is bad. It is upsetting because most players who are in GM and M and don't cheese every game work hard at improving their overall game and can see a correlation between their improvement and a higher ladder ranking. However, builds based around early bunker play seem to circumvent this entire system, as he has shown. While his overall game with Terran wasn't good, he was able to achieve a better rating that he did with his Protoss play with one cheesy gasless build. That is a bad mechanic, ruining any correlation between improvement in play and a higher ladder ranking.
But you also stream snipe, which is cheating, so you would do anything to win. If you looked at the monitor of your opponent in a tournament, you'd get disqualified, but since you can't get disqualified on the ladder, you pull it off shamelessly by stream sniping and bragging about it (read the chat from the combatex game). I would hope Teamliquid would have the intergrity to get rid of people like you.
User was warned for this post
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On May 26 2011 10:38 BronzeKnee wrote:
I four gate a lot, but I do it after I scout as a strategic choice, not blindly stating "I'm going to 4 gate this game to counter all that Terran fast expanding junk." So I have no problem with games that aren't macro focused.
But the 6 pool and your build are totally dependant on your opponent making mistakes, cutting corners or rolling the dice on hoping they scout incorrectly, or do not scout at all. It has very little to do with your strategic skill since it is a blind strategy (ie I'm going to commit to this before I've even scouted) and often requires another blind strategy to hard counter. This just makes the game rock-paper-scissors. Thus you don't see actual improvements in your play when go up the ladder, you simply do a build that lacks strategic skill and focuses purely on small portion of the game, dragging better overall players down to a game that is unexpected and very simple, and often making it a dice roll. Even still, these builds have their place in a tourney series because if you know your opponent cut corners last game in scouting, doing one of these can punish scoutless builds.
It is a bad mechanic for a RTS game as we saw Geiko go from mid-masters to #1 masters with a cheese build, and that is bad. It is upsetting because most players who are in GM and M and don't cheese every game work hard at improving their overall game and can see a correlation between their improvement and a higher ladder ranking. However, builds based around early bunker play seem to circumvent this entire system, as he has shown. While his overall game with Terran wasn't good, he was able to achieve a better rating that he did with his Protoss play with one cheesy gasless build. That is a bad mechanic, ruining any correlation between improvement in play and a higher ladder ranking.
But you also stream snipe, which is cheating, so you would do anything to win. If you looked at the monitor of you opponent in a tournament, you'd get disqualified, but since you can't get disqualified on the ladder, you pull it off shamelessly by stream sniping and bragging about it (read the chat from the combatex game). I would hope Teamliquid would have the intergrity to get rid of people like you.
haters be hating ^__^. Unfortunately i don't stream cheat. 1.. becauase i can't... 2.. my computer can't handle 2 programs at once.3. my friend are awesome =]
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Just played against Pride: on a 4 player map 16 nexus is definitely out of the question. I cannot really imagine how to hold it with 16 nexus, and even if it was on a 2 player map the 2 probe harass is shut down by the double barracks, so thats not worth it. Standard 1v1 map, the cb zealot off a 16 gate comes out of the gate as the scvs and i think 3 marines are across the map already.
GG Pride
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mAYbe I'm not understand, could protoss not just long range mine--> counter your main!?
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I don't think I've ever seen Pride make a command center, if you want to learn how to cheese this guy is pretty much the NA bitbybit. At least some of his all-ins are pretty interesting. Don't know why I see people still 1gate/rax expand vs. Pride though, figured they would have learned by now.
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Ironically... this is generally combated with good control and a 1 gate expo style that isn't too greedy. I like it!
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The replay vs combatex is fucking hilarious xD
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Added to my favorites for my list of builds =D
Definitely gonna play offrace and try to troll my master-league Protoss friends =D
EDIT: Btw why behind their mineral line? Can't it just be in range of the Nexus and about 2 to 3 mineral patches?
On May 26 2011 07:22 PrideTV wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 07:17 Cheerio wrote:
Can we have a rule to ban naming a guide after oneself when it has clearly no innovation whatsoever? And i'm sorry to see this work on GM level. And this is offtop, sorry. irrelevant.. If have nothing constructive to say, don't say it please. thanks!
I agree with Pride, but tbh I would never name a build after yourself unless it is COMPLETELY a new style, such as iEchoic or Spanishiwa, other than that are there really any famous builds named after a player? Exactly.
Great build again, but I would suggest not naming it after yourself =D
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How about replays of it not working? Give me a cheese build as toss and I'll give you replays of it working over and over again. Unfortunately that isn't the case, you do lose games with this build and I and many others would like to see how.
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How exactly is the timing like this vs. something like a 16 nexus on Tal'darim Altar?
I ask this because I occasionally do a 2rax (12/14) no-gas opening vs protoss on that map and other big maps, and if the timing isn't slim to the point of 12/13 being significiantly more powerful than 12/14, it'd be nice to utilize this as a way to punish those greedy protoss.
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I had i guy do something similar to me on the ladder, however, I had simply done a 3 gate robo/expand opening and had 2 stalkers and 1 zealot by the time he got to my base (this was cross positions on backwater gulch) it's not really that effective imo, unless the protoss gets extremely greedy in his builds (ie 15/16 nexus, Forge FE, etc) but is rolled by anything that is safe (which generally is how I play any Bo1/ladder game)
Though i gotta thank you for inspiring so many terrans, my PvT win rate is gonna skyrocket 
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EPT
