|
I am only low level diamond. I do however, think that mutas have their cake and eat it to. they have this magic box they can use to reduce the effectiveness of thors by a lot AND if you try to repair anything their glaives hit the scvs as well as the primary target. It is my opinion that thors air attack is pretty much designed with mutas in mind, so why should there be a relatively simple "micro" trick that reduces the thors effectiveness so greatly. i play against some friends who are silver and gold zergs and even they can magic box so its not exactly an extremely micro intensive task, one simply has to remember it. i also cant help but agree with
Idra used to say that on metalopolis if you get close spawns tvz the matchup is heavy T favored and if you get cross positions its heavy Z favored. Now 90% of maps are 'metalopolis cross positions'...
it feels like this very much. i LOVE to play a macro style but i feel like unless you pull off some amazing timings to constantly keep pressure on the zerg (limiting your expanding potential by draining resources in to attacking), taking extra bases becomes way too hard. sure, holding off 10 mutas is no issue but double that number and turrets getting 2 shot by a swarm just starts to get a little old. TL;DR i sink a lot of income in to turrets because this doesnt use supply and feel like taking more than your first 2 bases is extremely awkward if you havent managed to kill a chunk of his muta flock early in the piece
|
On April 04 2011 19:05 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 18:59 NDsOdapOp wrote:
the way i see it is even if you are going marine tank army comp you should always include 2-3 Thor's at the back of your army for support. as a Zerg what i find the hardest to deal with and to be most efficient for the Terran is if they patrol the map with their marine tank army and push on the Zerg's expansions at leave one Thor at each of their bases, then when the Terran feels they are in a good position they pull the Thor's from the expansion and push with their entire army. this way the Zerg can't afford to harass with Muta's while the Terran is pushing at his from door, and you cannot Muta harass if a Thor is there defending. You have turrets to support the thor right? else its just a free thor kill + scvs for a magic box of mutas.
yes but you only have maybe 2 turrets there with your Thor's, as there is no need for more, because at that point if the Zerg commits to killing the Thor and the turrets then they are sacrificing a lot of mutas and you have enough time to pull marines back to help defend if really necessary.
|
I think it totally depends on how the zerg plays it, but at times you should be making a lot of turrets yes. But with good placement, you don't really need that many.
I cant actually believe you said that Thors are bad against all zerg units... Thors destroy cost efficiently any zerg unit except for lings and bloodlords. But most importantly, it makes the zergs life 10 times harder. 1 thor parked with your siege tanks will make it nigh impossible to snipe tanks if your marines are remotely awake. Not to mention that if zerg makes 1 mistake and doesnt pay attention to his mutas 100% for about 1sek, you kill every single muta and win the game.
|
I don't see that as a sound plan. Relying on marines that are supposed to be guarding siege in the middle map or at your opponents door to stim RTB and kill mutas...
Marines would take too long
Tanks would be completely vulnerable if Z split his mutas in 2.
Does this sound crazy or does building armor upgrade, a thor, 1-5 turrets and A BUNKER with 4/6 marines inside sound like a defense that would work?
|
United Kingdom971 Posts
On April 04 2011 19:23 Cibron wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 19:13 Big J wrote:
I really think, that once you hit the lategame as terran, you should be either extremly aggressive with your Marines, or you should switch to more thors, as massed, they are just way better AA than marines. Yes, but they are way slower, suck vs lings and can't kite/spread vs banelings.
Ah yes, the great flaw of the mass Thor build is its inability to spread against mass baneling.
|
I play most TvZ in a slightly differnt way. I start off all bio, this helps put pressure on the zerg kills of creep (which hlpes more than most people think) but perhaps most importantly give you map controll. If you are already at the zergs choke with mass marine and no creep spred and then you add in tanks you dont have to worry about a slow push you just run ur tanks right up there. If zerg trys to intercept you can counter drop a base, or defend the tanks with marines. I tend to lay down 3 facts after i get my third, or 2 facts after i have been on 2 fore a while (I always FE).
You dont have to worry aobut turrets so much this way, but once you get the third up feel free to go crazy on them as you will likely have a minerals to sprear if you are going 3 fact tanks.
No this is not unbeatable, and no its not easy, you need good marine controll. Its just another way to play the game, and i find it works very well for me.
Get E-bay upgrades!!! the range and armour, they are damn good.
|
Terran has no reliable and effective way to deal with muta harass without getting behind, getting more than 2 bases with a cloud of mutas flying around is a nightmare.
TvZ is becoming a bunch of calculated timing attacks by terran along with map abuse because the only way to beat the mass mutas is not letting it happen.A reasonable buff to turrets/thors or a valkyrish unit could do the trick. Also building armor and turret range really help you against mass mutas but you have to sacrifice too much to get it. It kinda looks like BW TvZ...
|
On April 04 2011 19:03 curtis wrote:
well , solution is simple , make Vikings just "a little" more than rubbish vs Mutalisks , i tried it long time ago , cause even with marines , still Muta harras is winner . u loose lots of HP cause of stim and yet mutalisks just kite you into un-grounded spaces , and even with higher upgrades , you loose in battle of vikings vs mutas , simply they can out number you anyways and there is no aoe on vikings while Muta has AOE attacks wich is the key to win.so add some buff to vikings , something GOOD on air like Valkyrie would be awesome.
1) Muta is supposed to counter vikings
2) Viking is already the most cost effecient air unit in the game. No reason to buff it even more.
3) And muta doesnt have aoe. 2nd and 3rd attack is mediocre. It should be considered as a bonus to the primary attack which doesnt work when there are 1-2 targets (what rarely happens). So if you have troubles estimating the damage of mutas just consider they have a primary attack of 12 and nothing else.
4) You should play less campaign with imba upgrades.
|
On April 04 2011 21:58 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 19:03 curtis wrote:
well , solution is simple , make Vikings just "a little" more than rubbish vs Mutalisks , i tried it long time ago , cause even with marines , still Muta harras is winner . u loose lots of HP cause of stim and yet mutalisks just kite you into un-grounded spaces , and even with higher upgrades , you loose in battle of vikings vs mutas , simply they can out number you anyways and there is no aoe on vikings while Muta has AOE attacks wich is the key to win.so add some buff to vikings , something GOOD on air like Valkyrie would be awesome. 1) Muta is supposed to counter vikings 2) Viking is already the most cost effecient air unit in the game. No reason to buff it even more. 3) And muta doesnt have aoe. 2nd and 3rd attack is mediocre. It should be considered as a bonus to the primary attack which doesnt work when there are 1-2 targets (what rarely happens). So if you have troubles estimating the damage of mutas just consider they have a primary attack of 12 and nothing else. 4) You should play less campaign with imba upgrades.
Vikings suck against mutas man. You need to bet at least 1.5:1 with the mutas to come out even, but mutas build faster, are more mobile and benefit from upgrades a lot more. Vikings aren't a check on mutas at all. You need to have double starport reactor to keep up with Zerg, since he'll pop 10-12 right away. Finally, if you have a bunch of vikings and he has no mutas, what the hell can you do with them? Your marines are super vulnerable to blings because you sunk all your gas into vikings. Vikings suck against most Zerg units.
It's not a winning strategy.
|
On April 04 2011 21:14 Dragar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 19:23 Cibron wrote:On April 04 2011 19:13 Big J wrote:
I really think, that once you hit the lategame as terran, you should be either extremly aggressive with your Marines, or you should switch to more thors, as massed, they are just way better AA than marines. Yes, but they are way slower, suck vs lings and can't kite/spread vs banelings. Ah yes, the great flaw of the mass Thor build is its inability to spread against mass baneling.
haha - didn't think that through before posting.
Still the banelings tend to damage terran deathballs well enough for the lings and mutas to finish teh rest up.
|
On April 04 2011 22:13 0mar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 21:58 Cheerio wrote:On April 04 2011 19:03 curtis wrote:
well , solution is simple , make Vikings just "a little" more than rubbish vs Mutalisks , i tried it long time ago , cause even with marines , still Muta harras is winner . u loose lots of HP cause of stim and yet mutalisks just kite you into un-grounded spaces , and even with higher upgrades , you loose in battle of vikings vs mutas , simply they can out number you anyways and there is no aoe on vikings while Muta has AOE attacks wich is the key to win.so add some buff to vikings , something GOOD on air like Valkyrie would be awesome. 1) Muta is supposed to counter vikings 2) Viking is already the most cost effecient air unit in the game. No reason to buff it even more. 3) And muta doesnt have aoe. 2nd and 3rd attack is mediocre. It should be considered as a bonus to the primary attack which doesnt work when there are 1-2 targets (what rarely happens). So if you have troubles estimating the damage of mutas just consider they have a primary attack of 12 and nothing else. 4) You should play less campaign with imba upgrades. Vikings suck against mutas man. You need to bet at least 1.5:1 with the mutas to come out even, but mutas build faster, are more mobile and benefit from upgrades a lot more. Vikings aren't a check on mutas at all. You need to have double starport reactor to keep up with Zerg, since he'll pop 10-12 right away. Finally, if you have a bunch of vikings and he has no mutas, what the hell can you do with them? Your marines are super vulnerable to blings because you sunk all your gas into vikings. Vikings suck against most Zerg units. It's not a winning strategy.
The problem with the matchup is that it is balanced towards mutas, if terran could just tell mutas to go away with vikings the way toss does with phoenix tvz would be so ridiculous for the zerg it would not be even funny.
|
Thors are really good in TvZ, if u manage get high numbers with upgrades. Imba. Also, they are good protection against banelings when you put them infront of your marines.
|
I think the number of turrets you put down and the speed of your push varies greatly with the map. But yes, I agree with the OP -- building turrets around your tanks and doubling up turret count where the zerg is likely to counter mutas into are crucial in getting better TvZ. A few things I've found:
1 - Taking your third in the direction of your slow tank push is so key. A mistake I used to see a lot of top N.A. terrans do is attempting to do a 2-base timing attack while taking a third. Unless the rush distance is really short and the zerg doesn't scout your third, I feel like this will never work -- you have to commit to either a third or a timing attack. And the best way to taking a third is by establishing map control with tanks, bunkers and turrets at your third while walling off flanks to your nat with bunkers and a tank or two. From there, having a 3 base economy allows you so much flexibility it's amazing, it feels so good.
I think this concept of establishing map control to take bases is something that catapulted my TvZ from 3.2k masters to 3.5k+. Walling off flanking lanes with bunkers, planetaries, turrets, and taking expos along my tank push lane has elevated my play so much.
Edit: it's for this reason that I believe Scrap Station is heavily T favored in TvZ, because your third and his third are so freaking close, that once you wall off the center path rocks, firmly turret up your main, and establish tank/turret in at the xel naga station, you will always win because Z will never be able to take a third. Also, this is why I believe Typhoon is very balanced TvZ, because even though the rush distances are long and there are many flanking paths, the paths themselves are very narrow. So your tank push is very strong, but it's slow due to distance and you having to spend extra resources to wall off and prevent flanks, buying Z time to choose his appropriate hive-tech and maintain expo advantage by taking distant expos.
2 - I like to double up my turret count wherever the zerg player hits with his mutas first. So very often I've found that zergs will hit only one part of your base with his mutas, and will continue to revisit it until you make it impossible for him to do so. Very rarely will I see a zerg take his time to poke around with mutas like a terran does with a banshee -- I believe it's for fear of getting nailed by thor and marines -- so he will simply attack one spot over and over again. So only put up a bare minimum of turrets, and be efficient by concentrating them in key areas.
3 - I have to constantly scan for broodlord tech. Infestor pit = 1min, Lair = 1.5min, Greater Spire = 1.5min, Broodlord = 0.5min for a total of 4.5min before I need vikings. If I don't have vikings when they come out, it's usually gg.
|
Mutalisk range is 3, when Seeker Missiles get within 2 range they become undodgable. Ravens might make make pretty good Viking guard dogs tried using them to guard your bases from Mutalisks. Just Viking flower them all up and wait for the Mutalisks to get close.
|
On April 04 2011 22:13 0mar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2011 21:58 Cheerio wrote:On April 04 2011 19:03 curtis wrote:
well , solution is simple , make Vikings just "a little" more than rubbish vs Mutalisks , i tried it long time ago , cause even with marines , still Muta harras is winner . u loose lots of HP cause of stim and yet mutalisks just kite you into un-grounded spaces , and even with higher upgrades , you loose in battle of vikings vs mutas , simply they can out number you anyways and there is no aoe on vikings while Muta has AOE attacks wich is the key to win.so add some buff to vikings , something GOOD on air like Valkyrie would be awesome. 1) Muta is supposed to counter vikings 2) Viking is already the most cost effecient air unit in the game. No reason to buff it even more. 3) And muta doesnt have aoe. 2nd and 3rd attack is mediocre. It should be considered as a bonus to the primary attack which doesnt work when there are 1-2 targets (what rarely happens). So if you have troubles estimating the damage of mutas just consider they have a primary attack of 12 and nothing else. 4) You should play less campaign with imba upgrades. Vikings suck against mutas man. You need to bet at least 1.5:1 with the mutas to come out even, but mutas build faster, are more mobile and benefit from upgrades a lot more. Vikings aren't a check on mutas at all. You need to have double starport reactor to keep up with Zerg, since he'll pop 10-12 right away. Finally, if you have a bunch of vikings and he has no mutas, what the hell can you do with them? Your marines are super vulnerable to blings because you sunk all your gas into vikings. Vikings suck against most Zerg units. It's not a winning strategy.
You have obviously never seen the thread that has the whole math set out. If your vikings get 1-2 armor upgrades, in a straight up no micro fight (which vikings don't give a shit about micro cause their range is way longer) they win.
You need to remember the bounce damage from mutas relies on low armor on the enemy, or it does absolute shit damage.
|
i can offer some insight from a zergs perspective here.
among the obvious (get thors) there are a few subtle things i see a good terran when i go mutas.
when you go to push you need to be aware of the situation outside of the immediate "oh crap there are mutas in my base and i need turrets"
you need to realize that the zerg isnt trying to kill you with only mutas. but is most likely simply using them for map control/setup an easy third. so dont go overboard on defending against them. although if he is trying to win with only muta/ling/bling you should be able to win with a well timed base trade. so as your +1 vehicle weapons finish/good production cycle/other timings hit make an attempt at distracting your opponent. drop his third, and take the xel naga towers. the last thing you want to do is ball up your army and march past the xel naga while one ling gets a free peek at your entire composition. this will trigger the mass baneling ling production. you want your zerg adversary to feel he's safe or at the least uncertain about if your pushing. this is a good time to expo as he will be focused on repelling the attack. have a scouting marine go a bit ahead of your army so you dont get caught unsieged and secure some good positioning.
i'm getting long winded here but the main idea is this. dont setup excess turrets while idling in your base and building your forces, wait until you push out. keep the zerg active; send the occasional group of suicide marines to stop creep spread. and expand when you attack. best of luck
|
First of all 20+ turrets seems like a huge overkill and screams foreverbronze to me. There needs to be some balance between stationary defence and marines (I play zerg, marines are really good  ).
Also make sure that you actually scout that the zerg is going muta before you build any turrets. Infestor/ling is becoming more and more popular, you will feel pretty silly after you build 20 turrets and he just walks into your base and fungals your army. A lot of terrans just assume ling/bling/muta and blindly start constructing turrets.
Anyway I dont think there is anything new here, definitely mass turrets is NOT the future of TvZ though.
|
Making a million (~20 on three bases) turrets is definitely pretty standard on a map like Xel Naga Caverns.
I suggest spreading your tanks out to cover all the important areas. Then you want to be perpetually splitting your marines and trying to corner the mutas.
Finally, ~6-10 vikings with your 200/200 ball. That is the future.
On Vikings,
Vikings are actually a fantastic compliment to Marine/Thor in regards to dealing with Mutas. Vikings are fast and have a long range, meaning you can catch the mutas as they run away or as they try to run into your base. You will get some good shots off, and then the mutas will have to decide whether or not to engage. If they try to engage your Vikings you start kiting back to the Marines/Thors. You can get another 2 vikings volleys in for sure, and he can't kill vikings which are overtop of Marines.
|
On April 04 2011 18:04 titan55 wrote:
Mutas running around the map can make a terran go crazy, and once zerg hits around 20-30 mutas, 1-5 turrets dont even matter, a thor doesnt even really make the trick anymore. Terran will probably be so confused on where to send their marines, their push will get demolished anyways. The fact of the matter is, Marines are NOT the answers for base defending and tank defending in mid/late game TvZ
How is this a fact ?
Looks to me you are just loosing games against better macro players, and that when the zerg has 20-30 muta you are already behind.
20-30 mutas is a huge amount, if the zerg has so many mutas you should also have a huge amount of stuff.
If you have only 10 marines to defend 3 bases, sure you are in trouble. But if you leave 10 marines in each bases , with a couple of turrets, you should be fine even against 20-30 mutas, add 1 or 2 bunker/medivac if necessary.
If the problem is the supply limit, on biggers maps it's worth having more OC and less SCV.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
