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PvZ : Turtle into mutas harass - Page 2

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freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-11 16:58:41
March 11 2011 16:58 GMT
#21
i don't think lagging behind in phoenix will do the job.
if you opened with stargate its fine, but if not, and already got a decent ground army a switch to phoenix might be to easy countered with a techswitch to hydras.

which eats both gateway armies and air units easily.
DuneBug
Profile Joined April 2010
United States668 Posts
March 11 2011 17:01 GMT
#22
Phoenix just seem very nice since it forces zerg to make hydralisks, which as a zerg I really don't like making. Also every spore crawler they make is one less drone. And now they need a spore at every expo. You also get to snipe all their overlords around the map, which zerg is also not very happy about.
TIME TO SAY GOODNIGHT BRO!
rycho
Profile Joined July 2010
United States360 Posts
March 11 2011 17:16 GMT
#23
personally i don't feel like phoenix is the answer to mass muta at all. frankly, even if you are able to keep up with them in production (which requires double chronoboosted stargates, what happens then? the zerg can simply expand a few times because your 15 phoenixes can't hit ground and put down some spores in their mineral line. you are sitting around on 2-3 bases with a bunch of phoenixes as unupgraded gateway units. at this point the zerg can either add corruptors and beat you in the air, or simply go mass roach and beat you on the ground (before you can get to colossus).

yes, phoenixes do beat mutas cost for cost (pretty badly) but that doesn't necessarily mean they are the correct response. i think upgraded blink stalker into teching to storm and a third base with some cannons is the better way to play it.

if you want an example of this phoenix vs muta, see sangho (TSL.Killer) vs JookTo on Terminus Re, coda A ro32.
Binabik
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany686 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-11 17:30:18
March 11 2011 17:27 GMT
#24
rycho is right, Phonix suck if you're already economically behind. You need at least 2 Stargates and then the Zerg is still able to tech-switch to roach/hydra whenever he wants.

I personally just turtle with BlinkStalker on 2 Bases and go for Archons/High Templar. Then I get my third base up and protect it with ~8 Cannons. If he's still harassing I'll just wait for my 200/200 Deathball (Colossi will be nice too because he's going to remax with Zerglings) and attack him. About ~120 of his 200 Supply are going to be Drones (useless)/Mutalisks (nearly useless because of Storm+ArchonSplash).
If he tech-switched (and he sacced all of his mutas) you should just turn into macro mode and try to get a fourth base up.

It was very difficult for me (Protoss) to understand the play style you have to go against mass mutas, because I always tried to get as much map control as possible. But sometimes you have to turtle I guess


edit:
Advice:
Get Halluzination as soon as Warpgate is finished and H-Phoenix-Scout his tech tree. Then add a Robotics (2xEvolution Chamber/Teching Roach Warren) or a Twilight (Spire), depending on what you see. If he's too greedy (third base without an army), you should just push and kill it :D
Jumbled
Profile Joined September 2010
1543 Posts
March 11 2011 17:28 GMT
#25
Phoenixes aren't a bad solution, even if you're starting them late, but you do need to be smart in your use of them. That means not losing any and not going after the mutas until you have decent number. You don't need to match zerg production because of the edge the phoenixes have over the mutas, but you do need enough to do some damage to the muta ball.

The problem with relying solely on stalkers is that if the zerg is good with his mutas, you may never get to take a third base. Phoenixes offer the chance to take back some map control and allow you to expand. With just stalkers you may be forced to go all-in off two bases and simply try to kill the zerg directly. Phoenixes aren't the only solution though: as mentioned, psi storm can let you do enough damage to take back some map control.
quaffle
Profile Joined December 2010
United States249 Posts
March 11 2011 17:31 GMT
#26
As many have stated, dont be afraid to make 3-4 cannons per base to help your blink stalkers. And as other said storm rapes little children.

Another response to this type of zerg (not sure if it has been suggested) is dt harass. Force a few spore crawlers and/or overseers. You can use the dts to control the watchtowers and force the zerg to attack only with overseers. I wouldnt be afraid to maybe leave an archon in each mineral line far from your stalker ball as well. You will have a much easier time getting a third this way and is less gas intensive than high templar.
Your success is only measured by the strength of your competitors.
CryMore
Profile Joined March 2010
United States497 Posts
March 11 2011 17:57 GMT
#27
Basically the idea behind this is to force you to turtle while he drones/expands. Although this is a bit counter-intuitive (since of all the harass), you should just take a 3rd immediately. Cannon up your main and natural and use your army to take a third. There is no way for him to engage your army directly to begin with since he invested in mutas, and is probably expanding/droning (unless he is JulyZerg). Use all your gas to get HTs and all of your extra minerals on cannons. 4 cannons + 1 HT is an effective defense against mutas.

You HAVE to get HTs because if he commits to mutas you will die without storm or mass pheonix.

Another important thing is upgrades, if you have 2/1 stalkers versus 1/0 mutas you will win. DTs are good, but its way too easy for zerg to scout your shrine building because of all the mutas flying around. They are excellent once you have a 3rd and storm because its likely that zerg will have overexpanded, leaving him vulnerable for a time.
"What wins? 3-base Protoss or 2-base Zerg?" "1-base Terran"
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
March 11 2011 18:16 GMT
#28
Just use phoenix to counter the muta's.

If you are really behind, ie he is in your base with muta's already while your stargate isn't even up yet then you can be in trouble but then you definately did something wrong.
Either you haven't scouted well enough then or you didn't pressure enough to delay or kill him before muta's get up.

Even then if you are late phoenix are still the best way to answer muta. Even if your phoenix ball can't kill the muta ball head on you can stop harass with them. In a big battle with ground armies as well phoenix should always kill muta as long as you aren't severely outnumbered by simply fightning under guardian shield. Guardian shield SEVERELY cuts muta dps and phoenix do so much DPS that he can't simply focus the sentries first (which he can if you have stalker + sentry).

HT are not a good answer a good zerg will simply mass expo before you have HT and then switch to something like ultra or mass roach to nullify your HT. If you go HT you basically have to make a push straight away when you get storm or simply hope your opponent screws up bigtime with his muta's (ie fly them through several storms).
Yokoblue
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada594 Posts
March 11 2011 18:36 GMT
#29
Phoenix arent the solution IMO.

I played a zerg in a tourney and he went for mass mutas. I went for double stargate phoenix + mass canon at expo and he could kill me with mass ling (my 3rd) and strike my main at the same time and laugh.

You need way too many phoenix to counter a good mutas ball and with the splash attack that mutas have they arent the solution. I would go mass blink stalker + canon, take a 3rd and go archon if you can.

Mass upgrades and try to get a Stalker - Immortal - storm/archon ball. Once you are around 150 supply - Push.

That or go Blink stalker - DT. Harasss the expo as he harass you and morph into archon for the push with mass upgrades. Archon tear appart ling + mutas with good upgrades + He wont have many upgrades if he goes mutas ling.
Master League playing Protoss and Zerg
BigDatez
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada434 Posts
March 11 2011 18:44 GMT
#30
Opt for early voidrays... I mean, without mass queens realy early, voidrays become nearly impossible to stop as zerg.
Just wait until you have 2-3 out, then press on (vr's are alot faster than mutas to get out)

But if you'd rather play less risky, get some pheonixes, they demolish mutas, and can counter-harass well.
Video games > sex (Proven fact)
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
March 11 2011 18:56 GMT
#31
Isn't the 6-gate timing attack supposed to break this?
I'm not sure that a Zerg player can turtle enough to hold that off.

User was temp banned for this post.
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
DracoQC
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada55 Posts
March 11 2011 19:12 GMT
#32

Thanks a lot for the tips guys, I see that I'm not the only one facing this strat. I really hate this strategy lol, both defensive and aggressive, but hey thats one of the challenge of the game.

I see a lot of different opinions here, still not sure what is the best : ) I don't use Phoenixes often but I guess I should do them more now. They should give me more map control which I really never have vs Zerg. Someone said I need hallucinated phoenixes fast to scout I guess I should do that more lol.

But for me builds like double stargates are good first and sure do well vs mutas but while I don't really play zerg I alway got the impression that they can switch to other strategy like mass roach lings etc, really faster and easier than toss could switch.

As for blink stalkers and high templars, it seem less risky if he want to switch to big army I can be ready but I got less map control. I'm used now to be ready for terrans hellion drop or banshee but mutas are just so fast to go in your main then into your expand :/ but the big problem for me is not only that he can kill a few probes here and here, but if I want to go out and charge at his base, mutas will be almost free at mine and it will transform my attack into all-in. I mean if I don't kill him, (and it will be hard with so many crawlers) mutas will come back and say: ''Hey man btw you don't have any more probes''

What do you think of doing expand with 3 gates, double star gates if I scout spire and then phoenixes. If I do Void rays after he got corrupters or switch to ground army, do you think it will be effective? (Because I try to make the double star gate not useless lol)

I think I even saw ming chul lose to this before lol. I know minigun had trouble with mutas too, seem to do well know, wonder what is his trick. He did some weird 3 stargates of two base one time lol, phoenixes were effective but for me it would be risky and I think he did that since he had control of the game more.



freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-11 21:39:20
March 11 2011 21:37 GMT
#33
On March 12 2011 03:56 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Isn't the 6-gate timing attack supposed to break this?
I'm not sure that a Zerg player can turtle enough to hold that off.


it is supposed to, but a Zerg can play smart and put alot of spines to make it not worth it
so your stuck with standard gateway armies, not a safe appoach, cause if you can't kill him he will harass you to death.
ShatterZer0
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1843 Posts
March 11 2011 21:44 GMT
#34
Learn to 6 gate timing whenever a Zerg is turtling for mutas... or get storm and keep the SAME number of bases. Remember, A Protoss almost always has better econ on equal bases, and just because he has roaches and lings doesn't mean you have to fear them if he's trying to muta play. Muta's cost TONS of gas and most zergs opt to get fast +1 air attack leaving almost NO gas for anything else, much less Roach speed.

Ignore the pithy of roaches and slam into his mutas with a superior Stalker Sentry army, and, when possible, a Stalker Sentry High Templar army. Muta/ling/roach is actually worse than muta/ling because it lacks the power in mobility with slow supply inefficient low dps tanks.
A time to live.
xbankx
Profile Joined July 2010
703 Posts
March 12 2011 00:22 GMT
#35
either go 6 gate timing but if he puts down like 8-9 spine then just add another nexus and put down 2 stargate get +1 air since he won't have lings due to spinecrawlker count you dont need ground army for a while. It will then be a 3 base toss versus 2 base zerg going muta.
Minigun
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
619 Posts
March 12 2011 01:21 GMT
#36
Should never...ever go phoenix vs muta, unless you already have two stargates out for whatever reason.

Your first instinct is to scout with hallucination after putting down the expansion. Get a phoenix, see what he's doing. He going muta? Immediately throw down a twlight, start blink, put two cannons in each mineral line, tech to HT's while taking a 3rd, grab double forge, and gogo upgrades.

Best way to deal with it. If you go phoenix he can tech switch to mass roach at any time and you are as good as screwed.
“Quiet people have the loudest minds.” ― Stephen Hawking
DracoQC
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada55 Posts
March 12 2011 02:08 GMT
#37
Didn't expect a answer from mini : )

Alright thanks a lot, I'll keep that in mind.

Someone in this thread said that I don't need to put all of my army (Stalkers) at my entrance and it's actually true. If he have mutas he should not have that much roaches and lings. I guess when he go mutas I'm just in panic mode and don't play good, I'll work on that.

It's true that I don't use ht that often vs mutas but I saw some games (Stream of mini, by example) where storms were pretty effective against them.

Blacklizard
Profile Joined May 2007
United States1194 Posts
March 12 2011 02:41 GMT
#38
Stalkers to storm seems the safest bet. However, I think it's actually very easy for a micro oriented zerg to stay out of storm enough to be fine as long as he takes plenty of expansions while the Protoss is forced to turtle. Luckily, a lot of ladder players neglect micro... it astonishes me that spreading units is considered so uber "hard" to do.
ALang
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada288 Posts
March 12 2011 03:22 GMT
#39
Phoenix is total shit against mass mutas. You will never have enough to deal with the mutas and you just sunk all that money into something that sucks against zerg except to harass early in the game. 6-7 spine crawlers always means gas heavy tech, which should tell you mutas. Blink stalkers and tech to storm is the right answer, ignore anyone telling you phoenix.
ALang
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada288 Posts
March 12 2011 03:23 GMT
#40
And this is exactly what Minigun said a couple posts up. Listen to him.
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