EPTif you opened with stargate its fine, but if not, and already got a decent ground army a switch to phoenix might be to easy countered with a techswitch to hydras.
which eats both gateway armies and air units easily.
PvZ : Turtle into mutas harass - Page 2
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freetgy
1720 Posts
if you opened with stargate its fine, but if not, and already got a decent ground army a switch to phoenix might be to easy countered with a techswitch to hydras. which eats both gateway armies and air units easily. | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
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rycho
United States360 Posts
yes, phoenixes do beat mutas cost for cost (pretty badly) but that doesn't necessarily mean they are the correct response. i think upgraded blink stalker into teching to storm and a third base with some cannons is the better way to play it. if you want an example of this phoenix vs muta, see sangho (TSL.Killer) vs JookTo on Terminus Re, coda A ro32. | ||
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
I personally just turtle with BlinkStalker on 2 Bases and go for Archons/High Templar. Then I get my third base up and protect it with ~8 Cannons. If he's still harassing I'll just wait for my 200/200 Deathball (Colossi will be nice too because he's going to remax with Zerglings) and attack him. About ~120 of his 200 Supply are going to be Drones (useless)/Mutalisks (nearly useless because of Storm+ArchonSplash). If he tech-switched (and he sacced all of his mutas) you should just turn into macro mode and try to get a fourth base up. It was very difficult for me (Protoss) to understand the play style you have to go against mass mutas, because I always tried to get as much map control as possible. But sometimes you have to turtle I guess  edit: Advice: Get Halluzination as soon as Warpgate is finished and H-Phoenix-Scout his tech tree. Then add a Robotics (2xEvolution Chamber/Teching Roach Warren) or a Twilight (Spire), depending on what you see. If he's too greedy (third base without an army), you should just push and kill it :D | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
The problem with relying solely on stalkers is that if the zerg is good with his mutas, you may never get to take a third base. Phoenixes offer the chance to take back some map control and allow you to expand. With just stalkers you may be forced to go all-in off two bases and simply try to kill the zerg directly. Phoenixes aren't the only solution though: as mentioned, psi storm can let you do enough damage to take back some map control. | ||
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quaffle
United States249 Posts
Another response to this type of zerg (not sure if it has been suggested) is dt harass. Force a few spore crawlers and/or overseers. You can use the dts to control the watchtowers and force the zerg to attack only with overseers. I wouldnt be afraid to maybe leave an archon in each mineral line far from your stalker ball as well. You will have a much easier time getting a third this way and is less gas intensive than high templar. | ||
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CryMore
United States497 Posts
You HAVE to get HTs because if he commits to mutas you will die without storm or mass pheonix. Another important thing is upgrades, if you have 2/1 stalkers versus 1/0 mutas you will win. DTs are good, but its way too easy for zerg to scout your shrine building because of all the mutas flying around. They are excellent once you have a 3rd and storm because its likely that zerg will have overexpanded, leaving him vulnerable for a time. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
If you are really behind, ie he is in your base with muta's already while your stargate isn't even up yet then you can be in trouble but then you definately did something wrong. Either you haven't scouted well enough then or you didn't pressure enough to delay or kill him before muta's get up. Even then if you are late phoenix are still the best way to answer muta. Even if your phoenix ball can't kill the muta ball head on you can stop harass with them. In a big battle with ground armies as well phoenix should always kill muta as long as you aren't severely outnumbered by simply fightning under guardian shield. Guardian shield SEVERELY cuts muta dps and phoenix do so much DPS that he can't simply focus the sentries first (which he can if you have stalker + sentry). HT are not a good answer a good zerg will simply mass expo before you have HT and then switch to something like ultra or mass roach to nullify your HT. If you go HT you basically have to make a push straight away when you get storm or simply hope your opponent screws up bigtime with his muta's (ie fly them through several storms). | ||
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
I played a zerg in a tourney and he went for mass mutas. I went for double stargate phoenix + mass canon at expo and he could kill me with mass ling (my 3rd) and strike my main at the same time and laugh. You need way too many phoenix to counter a good mutas ball and with the splash attack that mutas have they arent the solution. I would go mass blink stalker + canon, take a 3rd and go archon if you can. Mass upgrades and try to get a Stalker - Immortal - storm/archon ball. Once you are around 150 supply - Push. That or go Blink stalker - DT. Harasss the expo as he harass you and morph into archon for the push with mass upgrades. Archon tear appart ling + mutas with good upgrades + He wont have many upgrades if he goes mutas ling. | ||
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BigDatez
Canada434 Posts
Just wait until you have 2-3 out, then press on (vr's are alot faster than mutas to get out) But if you'd rather play less risky, get some pheonixes, they demolish mutas, and can counter-harass well. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
I'm not sure that a Zerg player can turtle enough to hold that off. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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DracoQC
Canada55 Posts
Thanks a lot for the tips guys, I see that I'm not the only one facing this strat. I really hate this strategy lol, both defensive and aggressive, but hey thats one of the challenge of the game. I see a lot of different opinions here, still not sure what is the best : ) I don't use Phoenixes often but I guess I should do them more now. They should give me more map control which I really never have vs Zerg. Someone said I need hallucinated phoenixes fast to scout I guess I should do that more lol. But for me builds like double stargates are good first and sure do well vs mutas but while I don't really play zerg I alway got the impression that they can switch to other strategy like mass roach lings etc, really faster and easier than toss could switch. As for blink stalkers and high templars, it seem less risky if he want to switch to big army I can be ready but I got less map control. I'm used now to be ready for terrans hellion drop or banshee but mutas are just so fast to go in your main then into your expand :/ but the big problem for me is not only that he can kill a few probes here and here, but if I want to go out and charge at his base, mutas will be almost free at mine and it will transform my attack into all-in. I mean if I don't kill him, (and it will be hard with so many crawlers) mutas will come back and say: ''Hey man btw you don't have any more probes'' What do you think of doing expand with 3 gates, double star gates if I scout spire and then phoenixes. If I do Void rays after he got corrupters or switch to ground army, do you think it will be effective? (Because I try to make the double star gate not useless lol) I think I even saw ming chul lose to this before lol. I know minigun had trouble with mutas too, seem to do well know, wonder what is his trick. He did some weird 3 stargates of two base one time lol, phoenixes were effective but for me it would be risky and I think he did that since he had control of the game more. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 12 2011 03:56 oOOoOphidian wrote: Isn't the 6-gate timing attack supposed to break this? I'm not sure that a Zerg player can turtle enough to hold that off. it is supposed to, but a Zerg can play smart and put alot of spines to make it not worth it so your stuck with standard gateway armies, not a safe appoach, cause if you can't kill him he will harass you to death. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
Ignore the pithy of roaches and slam into his mutas with a superior Stalker Sentry army, and, when possible, a Stalker Sentry High Templar army. Muta/ling/roach is actually worse than muta/ling because it lacks the power in mobility with slow supply inefficient low dps tanks. | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
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Minigun
619 Posts
Your first instinct is to scout with hallucination after putting down the expansion. Get a phoenix, see what he's doing. He going muta? Immediately throw down a twlight, start blink, put two cannons in each mineral line, tech to HT's while taking a 3rd, grab double forge, and gogo upgrades. Best way to deal with it. If you go phoenix he can tech switch to mass roach at any time and you are as good as screwed. | ||
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DracoQC
Canada55 Posts
Alright thanks a lot, I'll keep that in mind. Someone in this thread said that I don't need to put all of my army (Stalkers) at my entrance and it's actually true. If he have mutas he should not have that much roaches and lings. I guess when he go mutas I'm just in panic mode and don't play good, I'll work on that. It's true that I don't use ht that often vs mutas but I saw some games (Stream of mini, by example) where storms were pretty effective against them. | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
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ALang
Canada288 Posts
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ALang
Canada288 Posts
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