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PvZ : Turtle into mutas harass - Page 3
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
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zyglrox
United States1168 Posts
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moonylo
Germany68 Posts
Another question for everyone: How would you deal with the zerg double expanding when his mutas reach your base? I feel like thats really greedy, but its hard to punish it, since you will need the stalkers you have at your base and going out with sentrys? Is it worth it to trade sentrys for mutas? I doubt it is. | ||
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LtLolburger
New Zealand365 Posts
What I do in low diamond is if I scout a spire with my halu'd phoenix is I put up twilight council asap, and go for +2 attack and temp archives => archons with blink stalkers. Archons are brilliant for defending your base, 1 archon, a few stalks and a cannon at each mineral line prevents any probs. Archon splash against clumping mutas is almost as good as thors. They also tear through speedlings due to the AoE attack. Once you have storm, you can safely move out and pretty much stomp him right away at his 3rd which he will be beginning to saturate. Just keep an eye on his base with hallucination/obs for any potential switches, you may need to add immortals against roach. | ||
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ABCSFirebird
Germany90 Posts
On March 12 2011 10:21 Minigun wrote: Should never...ever go phoenix vs muta, unless you already have two stargates out for whatever reason. Your first instinct is to scout with hallucination after putting down the expansion. Get a phoenix, see what he's doing. He going muta? Immediately throw down a twlight, start blink, put two cannons in each mineral line, tech to HT's while taking a 3rd, grab double forge, and gogo upgrades. Best way to deal with it. If you go phoenix he can tech switch to mass roach at any time and you are as good as screwed. On what map would a protoss be able to defend three bases vs mutas? I mean it is usually a good idea to expand vs an opponent who tries to harass, since it is easier to compensate for lost probes, but against the mobility of mutas I am pretty sure that you cannot be efficient. And where would roaches be a problem if you go phoenix? You have the same gas income as the zerg, so if he switches to roaches his muta production slows down and you would be able to defeat the mutas. And at the point when you see he isn't reinforcing with mutas, just switch to voidrays and possibly cannons. Its not that phoenix become totally useless when the zerg doesn't go muta anymore. A tech switch from zerg only becomes dangerous if he has the resources for the units or you invested a lot more into countering a certain unit type than you should have. I'd totally agree with you if we were still prepatch 1.2, blinkstalker and HTs were the best response at that time, but still not a very good one. With the change in phoenix build time and after seeing even some three stargate play on two base vs zerg (e.g. from tlo) who didn't even had the intention to go mutas in the first place I am certain phoenix are the better choice. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
1. you can get immortals 2. you can get blink stalkers 3. you can get void rays (which deal with mutas fine) I think I'll leave it at that, because I think everything you talked about is pretty much relying on that? | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
So now I just go 1forge heavy Blink Stalker, grab a dark shrine and send out the DTs at the same time I'm taking my third. Generally start teching to Templar when my third is almost done. Depending on the map, I make a few observers and spread them all over the place. Some people like to seem to tech to Templar off two base, but you have such limited gas, I don't feel like you have the income to get Blink, +1/+1, Templars + Templar upgrades, you need a decent stalker count to stop muta from being super aggressive | ||
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Weenkus
Croatia26 Posts
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
Maybe its just me but i have thought mutas need a nerf since the game came out, their accelaration is just a bit too fast the only thing that can catch up with them or stay the same speed at least is pheonix and usually with this build they go roach ling first and transition into mutas so its pretty much impossible to tell if they are going to stick with roaches or transition into muta, i really dont know what to say its the most frustrating feeling not being able to beat a build that apparently is the new most popular build against protoss right now (past 5 zergs ive encountered have done it to me. | ||
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summer0f89
United States15 Posts
It doesn't seem that many people are giving game-specific advice (because they didn't watch the replay) but I'll comment on it. First of all, you went 2 base mass gates, but not for a timing push--I don't recommend this because, as you noted, your scouting was severely lacking from having no observer or even hallucination, which brings us to sentries. Oh my god, sentries. Did you know you had more than twice as many sentries as all other combat units combined? almost as many sentries as probes? I'm at the same rating as you, 3.4k M, and I find it hard to believe that with all that gas and a TC that you didn't even think to go templar. You don't have to kill the mutas with storm right off, because red mutas aren't going to harass your mineral lines with 3-4 cannons. Think about that before the next time you make 24 sentries in a <80 food army o_0 | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
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panda_inc
Australia170 Posts
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Saiton
Sweden467 Posts
On March 12 2011 20:08 cheesemaster wrote: ugh i understand the idea behind going storm but i always find if the zerg is paying attention to his mutas (wich he should be ) they are totally fast enough to avoid any storms i throw down, and if i carpet storm he just books it and comes right back knowing i will have no storms for the next 20 secondds or so, imagine how much worse this is gonna be with the KA nerf Also, standing over your army doesn't feel great either with zealots fighting off the zerglings/killing sentries with your own storms. | ||
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bluecake
45 Posts
maybe you should have gone for stargate tech. phoenix harass and to kill mutas later and vrs to bust up his front. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Catchafire2000
United States227 Posts
1. Scout w/ hallucinated phoenixes. You will have a lot of sentries at this point. 2. Get blink/HT if you see a lot of spines. As this hints to muta play. 3. Get cannons in base, and split army into two groups for bases. 4. Stormed mutas are afraid to approach cannoned mineral line/blink stalkers... I think that is the gist. As mentioned earlier, a replay effectively showing this would help immensely. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142829-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis Here's a replay where Toss goes for Pheonix play | ||
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moonylo
Germany68 Posts
Day[9] Daily #276 Still trying to find the replay. | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
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sikyon
Canada1045 Posts
Of course I don't JUST use phoenix to fight the mutas, I just keep them off my back in terms of harass. I still use stalkers as the bulk of my anti muta force, but a couple of pheonix shuts down the muta mobility because it takes time for mutas to micro properly and kill phoenix at which point stalkers should be able to reinforce the phoenix and force the mutas to pull away. You really only need to build 4 pheonix vs 20 mutas to buy enough time to keep the mutas from doing econ damage to you. Personally I think 4 pheonix is a better investment than cannons in your minerals because you can gain some map control with them. | ||
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Carmine
United States263 Posts
I understand that I stated all that in a less than optimal way, but I think people assuming a 2 gate chrono'd pheonix response is the only pheonix response are wrong. Yes the Zerg might switch to a roach based army, but you dont have to have 100 supply of pheonix to be effective with them. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
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