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Hi,
So I just fought my highest opponent (I mean in term of ladder points: he was 3800 master) and lost again against a specific strategy that I never really found a way to counter it well.
My PvZ is already not my best matchup at the moment but I really got trouble against this:
- Zerg expand, then turtle (6-7 crawlers) He have lings and roaches also.
- Since it's not really possible for me to attack, Zerg drone up.
For the moment, I tell myself it's time to expand and try to take the map, trying to profit of the turtle. But on two bases a zerg can actually do a good number of mutas.
Even without scouting I was seeing that strat coming. I go for blink stalkers and I'm starting a forge. I really can't attack, he just got too many crawlers.
- Zerg attack with mutalisks to my main. My stalkers are down to my entrance. They are here to support zealots in case of attack with roaches and lings, I can't really see them coming in advance because he alway take control of watch tower. If I send a few zealots and/or stalkers whatever to kill the ling at the watch tower, he can send a lot of lings to kill them. If I send my whole army to kill the ling, he can try to counter attack my base and actually do some big damage.
- So by the time my stalkers go up to my main, even with blink, the zerg kill quite a good number of probes. Then you know the story, turn around, harass here, go to my expand, kill others probes. Mutas go back to their base and I'm like 14-15 probes behind in economy. It's hard to not be pessimism in this situation, I'm like: Ok I'm so down in economy I'm gonna lose unless some miracle or something.
But yea I'm still trying to figure out the best way to PvZ. My PvT is good, same for PvP, but for months now I just can't figure out PvZ. So here a replay:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/148963-1v1-protoss-zerg-gutterhulk
I know it was not my best game but he did some mistakes too. Feel free to give me tips on anything, I really want to beat those zergs! : )
I'm still glad thought. I don't feel he's an impossible opponent to beat at all even if he's 3800. I just need to find the trick. Are Phoenixes the only way here? I feel like he could just focus on roaches and then phoenixes would be way less useful.
Sorry for my bad english btw and I'm around 3400 master if you want the info.
Thanks in advance for the help!
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If he's dedicated to mutas, phoenixes are worth getting. Just keep them with your army until you have enough of them to go out and harass his mutas. If you know the mutas are coming, you're best off splitting your stalkers and sentries between your main and natural unless he has so many that he'll be able to overwhelm your forces. Finally, don't be afraid to build a tonne of cannons in this situation. Sometimes you just have to do it to be secure.
Edit: Just to clarify, mutas are quite an investment, so if he's going for them either he'll have very few zerglings and roaches, or the mutas will be very late. Either way, you shouldn't need all your army to defend your front, and can spare some stalkers to watch your mineral line.
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I would say firstly you were banking a lot of gas until 11 minutes in when you spent it all on sentries. I think you should have just gotten 1 gas if you were going to expand and not make any sentries. This is just a general issue, not specific to your problem.
I think you just reacted wrong. Its like Jumbled said, mutas are quite an investment. He cant have spines + equivalent ground army + mutas. You need to scout and decide how you are going to beat him. Spines and mutas means that you can slack on your ground army and still be fine. I would suggest pheonix. I think you should have dropped the starport as soon as you saw the spinecrawlers because you know he isn't going to be in a position to push on ground for a while.
Extra crap because im long winded:
On pheonix vs voidrays: pheonix would put you in a more defensive position and you should probably proceed to getting colossus. Alternatively you could just get some voidrays and start pressuring with heavy stalker counts and using the voidrays to kill the spinecrawlers. That route might turn into base race, but 6-8 mutas aren't going to win a base race i think.
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Salut Draco!! 
I play Zerg, and there is absolutely only one thing that Protoss can do to counter a well executed Muta build; Psionic Storm. Stalkers simply do not do enough DPS to take out an aggressive Muta ball, and even if you have enough stalkers, the mutas can dance around the map, never engaging directly.
When I make 40 mutas, and they get stormed once or twice and I lose 20 of them, I don't make any more mutas. By getting out the Psi Storm and Amulet you automatically force the Zerg to stop production of light units. I warn you now, any good Zerg will transition out of Muta/Ling in a real hurry once you storm them, so be ready to face roaches en masse.
Bonne Chance mon homme!
P.S. Phoenix do really well against Muta, but you need to have started Phoenix production either before the Zerg, or while he is massing the Muta ball. If you try to use Stargate as a response to a Zerg already having mutas, you will die.
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I haven't watched the replay because I'm at work, but as soon as you scout a lot of spine crawlers at the natural he's most likely going for muta. Throw down a council and start upgrading blink, as well as teching to templar. Storm + blink is the best counter to mutas. And like stated before, don't be afraid to get cannons at your bases to defend. It's worth the cost.
Oh, and upgrading armour against mass muta is better than upgrading attack damage because it greatly diminishes the splash damage.
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Turtle too. Get enough cannons and blink stalkers and start storm. Turtle your 3rd base. Push out with enough support units depending on what else zerg is building with their mutas. Your 150+ army should counter his army a lot better for the win.
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Haven't watched the replay as I'm at work, but think i have a good grasp of what you are facing.
I'm not quite sure about the timings and so on, but seeing as he is investing in alot of spine crawlers im assuming he wont be having alot of ground units to defend with?
Could it be a possibility to either:
Place pylon outside his main, get obs out = warp in units from 3-4 gates. Engage when enough units, FF his ramp if he has units coming from exp, and proceed to kill his main/spire.
or
Go for 2-3 gate robo, get out a Prism, drop lots/sentry in his main, FF ramp -> kill stuff.
As stated above, assuming I'm not completely off on the timings of obs/prism vs spire, it should be possible to wipe out his main, or atleast do alot of dmg to tech buildings so that he can't recover easily.
The idea is, if all (or atleast the bulk) of his defense is in front, why not just go in where he has none? Just like you don't HAVE to attack into PF vs terran on Xel Naga, one can actually just go past it and attack his natural or main.
For the record 3100 master protoss here.
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This
On March 11 2011 18:33 Zedromas wrote:
I play Zerg, and there is absolutely only one thing that Protoss can do to counter a well executed Muta build; Psionic Storm. Stalkers simply do not do enough DPS to take out an aggressive Muta ball, and even if you have enough stalkers, the mutas can dance around the map, never engaging directly.
When I make 40 mutas, and they get stormed once or twice and I lose 20 of them, I don't make any more mutas. By getting out the Psi Storm and Amulet you automatically force the Zerg to stop production of light units. I warn you now, any good Zerg will transition out of Muta/Ling in a real hurry once you storm them, so be ready to face roaches en masse.
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And this
On March 11 2011 21:40 McNulty wrote:
Go for 2-3 gate robo, get out a Prism, drop lots/sentry in his main, FF ramp -> kill stuff.
As stated above, assuming I'm not completely off on the timings of obs/prism vs spire, it should be possible to wipe out his main, or atleast do alot of dmg to tech buildings so that he can't recover easily.
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Seem like good stuff ^^
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Feel free to mass phoenix against any muta-based strategy. Phoenix are so underused vs Zerg its not even funny. When people "go for phoenix" they get 4-6 and stop?
Get 10-12. There really isn't anything in the Zerg arsenal that shuts down this many phoenix.
Fungal growth doesn't affect a wide enough area to catch all the phoenix.
Corruptors are too slow to keep up.
Hydras and Queens get eaten alive so long as you don't let them get into a giant ball.
Mutas are lol.
Spore crawlers don't do enough DPS to keep you out of their base.
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Imho Phoenix are the only way to deal with that. If you tech to HTs you are forced to be passive for a far too long time and he probably will mass expand all over the map. Even if you are doing a good job in defending his harass, the game will then end in a basetrade (which you are most likely to lose) once you push out.
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Northern Ireland117 Posts
if you see a zerg turtling hard you might aswell invest in haluicnate and get a phoenix to scout and if you see muta get phoenix and punish him super hard for going muta because pheonix destroy muta so hard its crazy. Plus he will be sooo far behind at that stage you prob could just make a few immortals to break the spines like a timing attack because loosing all those gas heavy units is very devastating to loose it all
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I faced this strat once and lost in the most frustrating manner possible. You'd be surprised how well mutas do against phoenix once they get into a ball of 20+. Unless your micro is perfect , he will stop and you'll lose the first 3-4 phoenix in your fleet in the blink of an eye.
IMO the only way to win this is with storm. You need AOE to take out a muta cloud that big.
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If you want to deal with mutas, you have some options blink stalker, storm, and pheonix. The trick is when to get those. Usually you should get those when mutas harassment is out of your control. With the exception of pheonix, you can focus on them pretty much whenever you want to.
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nobody is mentioning guardian shield, although it is probably assumed and the mobility issue aside, the shield nullifies the effectiveness of the muta bounce, so mixing shield into your strategy from those early sentries seems essential.
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On March 11 2011 18:33 Zedromas wrote:Salut Draco!! I play Zerg, and there is absolutely only one thing that Protoss can do to counter a well executed Muta build; Psionic Storm. Stalkers simply do not do enough DPS to take out an aggressive Muta ball, and even if you have enough stalkers, the mutas can dance around the map, never engaging directly. When I make 40 mutas, and they get stormed once or twice and I lose 20 of them, I don't make any more mutas. By getting out the Psi Storm and Amulet you automatically force the Zerg to stop production of light units. I warn you now, any good Zerg will transition out of Muta/Ling in a real hurry once you storm them, so be ready to face roaches en masse.
Seriously on what level you play if toss kills you only if he gets storms? Usually you will die until you have 40 muta. No idea what toss was doing if he allowed you to get such numbers.^^
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On March 11 2011 22:55 Brandus wrote:
I faced this strat once and lost in the most frustrating manner possible. You'd be surprised how well mutas do against phoenix once they get into a ball of 20+. Unless your micro is perfect , he will stop and you'll lose the first 3-4 phoenix in your fleet in the blink of an eye.
IMO the only way to win this is with storm. You need AOE to take out a muta cloud that big.
Why don't you have a 15+ phoenix ball if he has that many mutas?
A Phoenix takes 6 shots to kill a Muta.
Mutas take a minimum of 14 shots to kill a Phoenix (this is assuming perfect bounce damage). This can go as high as 20 shots with no bounce.
Phoenixes are faster than Mutas.
Phoenixes have longer range than Mutas.
Phoenixes do WAY more DPS than Mutas.
Phoenixes benefit more from upgrades than Mutas do.
About the ONLY drawback of Phoenix vs Muta is that you can only build one phoenix at a time... Not much of an issue considering it costs less to get the required tech in place and Zerg can't really afford to be making Mutas faster than 1 per 30 seconds or so anyway due to gas constraints (if they go 100% with no upgrades no nothing they can do 1 every 15 seconds off 2 bases).
MAKE MORE PHOENIXES!!!
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A lot of people are suggesting phoenixes. Personally, knowing how quickly zerg can tech switch, I'd prefer blink stalkers (as stalkers or zealots will be in almost any build because, other than cannons, they're the only mineral heavy units you've got).
Something I noticed Axslav doing in his game against Destiny in the most recent Day9 Daily is something I think is really smart when you're on 2-base: keeping your stalkers in 2 groups, close enough together that one blink from both will bring them together in the middle. This way, if the mutas come for your main, or your nat's mineral line, you'll always have a good amount to attack them. If they turn on your stalkers, the two groups are close enough to group together and push them off. You definitely don't absolutely need pheonixes or storm so badly that you need to immediately tech switch upon scouting mutas.
The most important thing to remember is this: if you aren't comfortable using stargate tech against Roach Hydra, you shouldn't make a stargate pre-emptively to counter mutas. And if you don't pre-empt mutas with a stargate, don't bother trying to get one up after you see mutas - as it's usually too late to catch up at this point. If you happen to scout so that the spire is less than half complete and you only see lings and drones, you probably have time to get a few phoenixes in the air, and you might even win the air battle. You'd have to be very precise with your scouting for this, though, as phoenixes are not terribly useful outside of harassment against roach/hydra/corruptor, which is one of the most common ZvP builds.
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I lost to this strat really badly too. As I analyzed the replay, there are actually timings that you can use against him when he's expanding/turtling which, although might not kill him outright, can seriously freak him out and keep defensive for a little while longer.
What you CAN try is pushing out with a stalker/sentry ball trying to counter attack while he hits your base. You'll lose a bit of probes, but you'll force an engagement with his inferior ground army with your superior ground army. With correct FF placement you can kill his roaches and pop guardian shield to deal with his mutas. His mutas will HAVE to pull back to defend and you can just FF his ground army away. (you're gonna need about 8-9 senetries for this)
I tried it in the game I lost and it I actually got to his doorstep before my FFs lagged and I couldnt block out his roaches long enough. It's a viable response imo and it doesnt hinge so much on tech switching like a crazy bastard.
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Some missing information about phoenixes here.
1) If you want to win huge phoenix vs muta fights, you have to magic box your phoenix. Meaning you click behind the mutas on the minimap somewhere far behind them, DO NOT ever try to focus fire or do cute micro like going back and forth. Your phoenix will clump und you will get absolutely destroyed.
2) When u went for phoenix before he started mutas, you can do it this way. However, if you want to do it as a response, you will be raped. Zerg can easily add some corrupters into their mix, tanking a huge amout of damage while also dealing a great amout to your phoenix. Even when you started before him to make phoenix, you will have a huge trouble to deal with that combination.
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As a zerg I can tell you the best thing you can do is build phoenixes. Even if he cuts production on the mutas the phoenixs is still great for scouting, ovi picking and fending off corruptors that are trying to focus down your colossi. I can’t tell you how annoying Phoenixes are, since they tend to give you map control.
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i don't think lagging behind in phoenix will do the job.
if you opened with stargate its fine, but if not, and already got a decent ground army a switch to phoenix might be to easy countered with a techswitch to hydras.
which eats both gateway armies and air units easily.
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Phoenix just seem very nice since it forces zerg to make hydralisks, which as a zerg I really don't like making. Also every spore crawler they make is one less drone. And now they need a spore at every expo. You also get to snipe all their overlords around the map, which zerg is also not very happy about.
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personally i don't feel like phoenix is the answer to mass muta at all. frankly, even if you are able to keep up with them in production (which requires double chronoboosted stargates, what happens then? the zerg can simply expand a few times because your 15 phoenixes can't hit ground and put down some spores in their mineral line. you are sitting around on 2-3 bases with a bunch of phoenixes as unupgraded gateway units. at this point the zerg can either add corruptors and beat you in the air, or simply go mass roach and beat you on the ground (before you can get to colossus).
yes, phoenixes do beat mutas cost for cost (pretty badly) but that doesn't necessarily mean they are the correct response. i think upgraded blink stalker into teching to storm and a third base with some cannons is the better way to play it.
if you want an example of this phoenix vs muta, see sangho (TSL.Killer) vs JookTo on Terminus Re, coda A ro32.
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rycho is right, Phonix suck if you're already economically behind. You need at least 2 Stargates and then the Zerg is still able to tech-switch to roach/hydra whenever he wants.
I personally just turtle with BlinkStalker on 2 Bases and go for Archons/High Templar. Then I get my third base up and protect it with ~8 Cannons. If he's still harassing I'll just wait for my 200/200 Deathball (Colossi will be nice too because he's going to remax with Zerglings) and attack him. About ~120 of his 200 Supply are going to be Drones (useless)/Mutalisks (nearly useless because of Storm+ArchonSplash).
If he tech-switched (and he sacced all of his mutas) you should just turn into macro mode and try to get a fourth base up.
It was very difficult for me (Protoss) to understand the play style you have to go against mass mutas, because I always tried to get as much map control as possible. But sometimes you have to turtle I guess 
edit:
Advice:
Get Halluzination as soon as Warpgate is finished and H-Phoenix-Scout his tech tree. Then add a Robotics (2xEvolution Chamber/Teching Roach Warren) or a Twilight (Spire), depending on what you see. If he's too greedy (third base without an army), you should just push and kill it :D
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Phoenixes aren't a bad solution, even if you're starting them late, but you do need to be smart in your use of them. That means not losing any and not going after the mutas until you have decent number. You don't need to match zerg production because of the edge the phoenixes have over the mutas, but you do need enough to do some damage to the muta ball.
The problem with relying solely on stalkers is that if the zerg is good with his mutas, you may never get to take a third base. Phoenixes offer the chance to take back some map control and allow you to expand. With just stalkers you may be forced to go all-in off two bases and simply try to kill the zerg directly. Phoenixes aren't the only solution though: as mentioned, psi storm can let you do enough damage to take back some map control.
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As many have stated, dont be afraid to make 3-4 cannons per base to help your blink stalkers. And as other said storm rapes little children.
Another response to this type of zerg (not sure if it has been suggested) is dt harass. Force a few spore crawlers and/or overseers. You can use the dts to control the watchtowers and force the zerg to attack only with overseers. I wouldnt be afraid to maybe leave an archon in each mineral line far from your stalker ball as well. You will have a much easier time getting a third this way and is less gas intensive than high templar.
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Basically the idea behind this is to force you to turtle while he drones/expands. Although this is a bit counter-intuitive (since of all the harass), you should just take a 3rd immediately. Cannon up your main and natural and use your army to take a third. There is no way for him to engage your army directly to begin with since he invested in mutas, and is probably expanding/droning (unless he is JulyZerg). Use all your gas to get HTs and all of your extra minerals on cannons. 4 cannons + 1 HT is an effective defense against mutas.
You HAVE to get HTs because if he commits to mutas you will die without storm or mass pheonix.
Another important thing is upgrades, if you have 2/1 stalkers versus 1/0 mutas you will win. DTs are good, but its way too easy for zerg to scout your shrine building because of all the mutas flying around. They are excellent once you have a 3rd and storm because its likely that zerg will have overexpanded, leaving him vulnerable for a time.
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Just use phoenix to counter the muta's.
If you are really behind, ie he is in your base with muta's already while your stargate isn't even up yet then you can be in trouble but then you definately did something wrong.
Either you haven't scouted well enough then or you didn't pressure enough to delay or kill him before muta's get up.
Even then if you are late phoenix are still the best way to answer muta. Even if your phoenix ball can't kill the muta ball head on you can stop harass with them. In a big battle with ground armies as well phoenix should always kill muta as long as you aren't severely outnumbered by simply fightning under guardian shield. Guardian shield SEVERELY cuts muta dps and phoenix do so much DPS that he can't simply focus the sentries first (which he can if you have stalker + sentry).
HT are not a good answer a good zerg will simply mass expo before you have HT and then switch to something like ultra or mass roach to nullify your HT. If you go HT you basically have to make a push straight away when you get storm or simply hope your opponent screws up bigtime with his muta's (ie fly them through several storms).
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Phoenix arent the solution IMO.
I played a zerg in a tourney and he went for mass mutas. I went for double stargate phoenix + mass canon at expo and he could kill me with mass ling (my 3rd) and strike my main at the same time and laugh.
You need way too many phoenix to counter a good mutas ball and with the splash attack that mutas have they arent the solution. I would go mass blink stalker + canon, take a 3rd and go archon if you can.
Mass upgrades and try to get a Stalker - Immortal - storm/archon ball. Once you are around 150 supply - Push.
That or go Blink stalker - DT. Harasss the expo as he harass you and morph into archon for the push with mass upgrades. Archon tear appart ling + mutas with good upgrades + He wont have many upgrades if he goes mutas ling.
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Opt for early voidrays... I mean, without mass queens realy early, voidrays become nearly impossible to stop as zerg.
Just wait until you have 2-3 out, then press on (vr's are alot faster than mutas to get out)
But if you'd rather play less risky, get some pheonixes, they demolish mutas, and can counter-harass well.
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Isn't the 6-gate timing attack supposed to break this?
I'm not sure that a Zerg player can turtle enough to hold that off.
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Thanks a lot for the tips guys, I see that I'm not the only one facing this strat. I really hate this strategy lol, both defensive and aggressive, but hey thats one of the challenge of the game.
I see a lot of different opinions here, still not sure what is the best : ) I don't use Phoenixes often but I guess I should do them more now. They should give me more map control which I really never have vs Zerg. Someone said I need hallucinated phoenixes fast to scout I guess I should do that more lol.
But for me builds like double stargates are good first and sure do well vs mutas but while I don't really play zerg I alway got the impression that they can switch to other strategy like mass roach lings etc, really faster and easier than toss could switch.
As for blink stalkers and high templars, it seem less risky if he want to switch to big army I can be ready but I got less map control. I'm used now to be ready for terrans hellion drop or banshee but mutas are just so fast to go in your main then into your expand :/ but the big problem for me is not only that he can kill a few probes here and here, but if I want to go out and charge at his base, mutas will be almost free at mine and it will transform my attack into all-in. I mean if I don't kill him, (and it will be hard with so many crawlers) mutas will come back and say: ''Hey man btw you don't have any more probes''
What do you think of doing expand with 3 gates, double star gates if I scout spire and then phoenixes. If I do Void rays after he got corrupters or switch to ground army, do you think it will be effective? (Because I try to make the double star gate not useless lol)
I think I even saw ming chul lose to this before lol. I know minigun had trouble with mutas too, seem to do well know, wonder what is his trick. He did some weird 3 stargates of two base one time lol, phoenixes were effective but for me it would be risky and I think he did that since he had control of the game more.
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On March 12 2011 03:56 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Isn't the 6-gate timing attack supposed to break this?
I'm not sure that a Zerg player can turtle enough to hold that off.
it is supposed to, but a Zerg can play smart and put alot of spines to make it not worth it
so your stuck with standard gateway armies, not a safe appoach, cause if you can't kill him he will harass you to death.
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Learn to 6 gate timing whenever a Zerg is turtling for mutas... or get storm and keep the SAME number of bases. Remember, A Protoss almost always has better econ on equal bases, and just because he has roaches and lings doesn't mean you have to fear them if he's trying to muta play. Muta's cost TONS of gas and most zergs opt to get fast +1 air attack leaving almost NO gas for anything else, much less Roach speed.
Ignore the pithy of roaches and slam into his mutas with a superior Stalker Sentry army, and, when possible, a Stalker Sentry High Templar army. Muta/ling/roach is actually worse than muta/ling because it lacks the power in mobility with slow supply inefficient low dps tanks.
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either go 6 gate timing but if he puts down like 8-9 spine then just add another nexus and put down 2 stargate get +1 air since he won't have lings due to spinecrawlker count you dont need ground army for a while. It will then be a 3 base toss versus 2 base zerg going muta.
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Should never...ever go phoenix vs muta, unless you already have two stargates out for whatever reason.
Your first instinct is to scout with hallucination after putting down the expansion. Get a phoenix, see what he's doing. He going muta? Immediately throw down a twlight, start blink, put two cannons in each mineral line, tech to HT's while taking a 3rd, grab double forge, and gogo upgrades.
Best way to deal with it. If you go phoenix he can tech switch to mass roach at any time and you are as good as screwed.
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Didn't expect a answer from mini : )
Alright thanks a lot, I'll keep that in mind.
Someone in this thread said that I don't need to put all of my army (Stalkers) at my entrance and it's actually true. If he have mutas he should not have that much roaches and lings. I guess when he go mutas I'm just in panic mode and don't play good, I'll work on that.
It's true that I don't use ht that often vs mutas but I saw some games (Stream of mini, by example) where storms were pretty effective against them.
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Stalkers to storm seems the safest bet. However, I think it's actually very easy for a micro oriented zerg to stay out of storm enough to be fine as long as he takes plenty of expansions while the Protoss is forced to turtle. Luckily, a lot of ladder players neglect micro... it astonishes me that spreading units is considered so uber "hard" to do.
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Phoenix is total shit against mass mutas. You will never have enough to deal with the mutas and you just sunk all that money into something that sucks against zerg except to harass early in the game. 6-7 spine crawlers always means gas heavy tech, which should tell you mutas. Blink stalkers and tech to storm is the right answer, ignore anyone telling you phoenix.
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And this is exactly what Minigun said a couple posts up. Listen to him.
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2base timing push with blink. Keep the pressure on so he can't send the mutas to your base.
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if you scout an unusual amount of spine crawlers (usually more than two) good chance he's going muta. 2 base timing pushes can really wrecked muta builds because of investing a lot into them and they are not very good in army vs army fights. i 3 gate sentry expand, so if i scout possible muta you can save cboost and cut probes at 38 and 5 gate. it's pretty brutal to a 2 base zerg going muta or somebody playing greedy. a lot of zergs see sentry expands and drone like hell.
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Do you have some replays mini? Would really love to see some details. When I play against mutas, I think im always a little bit in panic and try to rush for everything. But on 2 bases, rushing for blink, storm, lots of stalkers, upgrades and a 3rd base doesnt work out at all. So I wonder what prioritys you have or in what order you do them.
Another question for everyone: How would you deal with the zerg double expanding when his mutas reach your base? I feel like thats really greedy, but its hard to punish it, since you will need the stalkers you have at your base and going out with sentrys? Is it worth it to trade sentrys for mutas? I doubt it is.
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Phoenix are crap against zerg, simply because if you have phoenix production sufficient to stop his mutas, a simple switch to roach or hydra gives him a win right there.
What I do in low diamond is if I scout a spire with my halu'd phoenix is I put up twilight council asap, and go for +2 attack and temp archives => archons with blink stalkers. Archons are brilliant for defending your base, 1 archon, a few stalks and a cannon at each mineral line prevents any probs. Archon splash against clumping mutas is almost as good as thors. They also tear through speedlings due to the AoE attack. Once you have storm, you can safely move out and pretty much stomp him right away at his 3rd which he will be beginning to saturate. Just keep an eye on his base with hallucination/obs for any potential switches, you may need to add immortals against roach.
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On March 12 2011 10:21 Minigun wrote:
Should never...ever go phoenix vs muta, unless you already have two stargates out for whatever reason.
Your first instinct is to scout with hallucination after putting down the expansion. Get a phoenix, see what he's doing. He going muta? Immediately throw down a twlight, start blink, put two cannons in each mineral line, tech to HT's while taking a 3rd, grab double forge, and gogo upgrades.
Best way to deal with it. If you go phoenix he can tech switch to mass roach at any time and you are as good as screwed.
On what map would a protoss be able to defend three bases vs mutas? I mean it is usually a good idea to expand vs an opponent who tries to harass, since it is easier to compensate for lost probes, but against the mobility of mutas I am pretty sure that you cannot be efficient.
And where would roaches be a problem if you go phoenix? You have the same gas income as the zerg, so if he switches to roaches his muta production slows down and you would be able to defeat the mutas. And at the point when you see he isn't reinforcing with mutas, just switch to voidrays and possibly cannons. Its not that phoenix become totally useless when the zerg doesn't go muta anymore. A tech switch from zerg only becomes dangerous if he has the resources for the units or you invested a lot more into countering a certain unit type than you should have.
I'd totally agree with you if we were still prepatch 1.2, blinkstalker and HTs were the best response at that time, but still not a very good one. With the change in phoenix build time and after seeing even some three stargate play on two base vs zerg (e.g. from tlo) who didn't even had the intention to go mutas in the first place I am certain phoenix are the better choice.
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You're (OP) totally mistaken if you think you can't attack him because he built crawlers.
1. you can get immortals
2. you can get blink stalkers
3. you can get void rays (which deal with mutas fine)
I think I'll leave it at that, because I think everything you talked about is pretty much relying on that?
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I use to double forge before and go super Stalker heavy, third was slightly delayed but I honestly don't see how you can ever take a third at a normal time vs Zerg without Stargates, then get Colossus and push with a 4 Colossus and a Billion Stalkers when 3-3 was done, it works great if you can completely deflect muta harass but lately high Masters players have been crushing me since it is almost impossible to not do damage with proper muta control.
So now I just go 1forge heavy Blink Stalker, grab a dark shrine and send out the DTs at the same time I'm taking my third. Generally start teching to Templar when my third is almost done. Depending on the map, I make a few observers and spread them all over the place.
Some people like to seem to tech to Templar off two base, but you have such limited gas, I don't feel like you have the income to get Blink, +1/+1, Templars + Templar upgrades, you need a decent stalker count to stop muta from being super aggressive
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One time I tried that strategy as zerg and the toss just made warp prison and took all his army to my main pass my cralwers just before I got my mutas out.
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pvz is my worst matchup at the moment as it seems alot of zergs have transitioned back into muta play against protoss (didnt see much of it for the past couple of months) and this build exactly is what i lost too about 5 minutes ago, if they go this build i literally never win i haevnt won a single game when they turtle with mass spines and go muta, i made a post on it and ive tried the suggestions ppl told me posted some replays and i still lose every single time. Mutas are so annoying they never engage directly and with all the spines 6 gate push doesnt work so what options are you actually left with, yes you can tech to storm as fast as possible but usually you take heavy probe losses in the progress leaving you starved for minerals and gas.
Maybe its just me but i have thought mutas need a nerf since the game came out, their accelaration is just a bit too fast the only thing that can catch up with them or stay the same speed at least is pheonix and usually with this build they go roach ling first and transition into mutas so its pretty much impossible to tell if they are going to stick with roaches or transition into muta, i really dont know what to say its the most frustrating feeling not being able to beat a build that apparently is the new most popular build against protoss right now (past 5 zergs ive encountered have done it to me.
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Everyone suggesting a phoenix response is way off, but that point has been addressed by Mini and others, and obviously mini's suggested response is the way to go.
It doesn't seem that many people are giving game-specific advice (because they didn't watch the replay) but I'll comment on it.
First of all, you went 2 base mass gates, but not for a timing push--I don't recommend this because, as you noted, your scouting was severely lacking from having no observer or even hallucination, which brings us to sentries.
Oh my god, sentries. Did you know you had more than twice as many sentries as all other combat units combined? almost as many sentries as probes? I'm at the same rating as you, 3.4k M, and I find it hard to believe that with all that gas and a TC that you didn't even think to go templar. You don't have to kill the mutas with storm right off, because red mutas aren't going to harass your mineral lines with 3-4 cannons.
Think about that before the next time you make 24 sentries in a <80 food army o_0
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ugh i understand the idea behind going storm but i always find if the zerg is paying attention to his mutas (wich he should be ) they are totally fast enough to avoid any storms i throw down, and if i carpet storm he just books it and comes right back knowing i will have no storms for the next 20 secondds or so, imagine how much worse this is gonna be with the KA nerf
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err phoenix fails unless you open with them to harass and deny mutas... its too late to switch to phoenix if mutalisk are already on the map. you have to defend with 6 gate blink stalkers, obs/pylons to spot and well zoned cannons while taking a third and teching to HTs. thats the only way to beat muta play after you opened standard, 3 gate FE into 4 gateways and a robotics. just add 2 gates and get blink. dont go phoenix.
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On March 12 2011 20:08 cheesemaster wrote:
ugh i understand the idea behind going storm but i always find if the zerg is paying attention to his mutas (wich he should be ) they are totally fast enough to avoid any storms i throw down, and if i carpet storm he just books it and comes right back knowing i will have no storms for the next 20 secondds or so, imagine how much worse this is gonna be with the KA nerf
Also, standing over your army doesn't feel great either with zealots fighting off the zerglings/killing sentries with your own storms.
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harass him.. if he turtles with crawlers in the front of his bases. chances are he will be vulnerable to a warp prism/pheonix harass. take advantage of that. and tech up to collosi to get rid of those crawlers.
maybe you should have gone for stargate tech. phoenix harass and to kill mutas later and vrs to bust up his front.
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I really like the advice being stated in this thread because I'm having a difficult time against the mass spine/mass muta strategy. I'm a gold league player so you can imagine how challenging this is for me. Here's the take away I got from the thread:
1. Scout w/ hallucinated phoenixes. You will have a lot of sentries at this point.
2. Get blink/HT if you see a lot of spines. As this hints to muta play.
3. Get cannons in base, and split army into two groups for bases.
4. Stormed mutas are afraid to approach cannoned mineral line/blink stalkers...
I think that is the gist. As mentioned earlier, a replay effectively showing this would help immensely.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142829-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
Here's a replay where Toss goes for Pheonix play
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I just realized there was a Day[9] daily on a PvZ which involved mutas. And Axslav played it just like minigun described.
Day[9] Daily #276
Still trying to find the replay.
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Learn to do the 2 base 6 gate and you won't have trouble with any muta builds, unless your opponent is just much better than you.
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I dunno, phoenix transition works for me.
Of course I don't JUST use phoenix to fight the mutas, I just keep them off my back in terms of harass. I still use stalkers as the bulk of my anti muta force, but a couple of pheonix shuts down the muta mobility because it takes time for mutas to micro properly and kill phoenix at which point stalkers should be able to reinforce the phoenix and force the mutas to pull away.
You really only need to build 4 pheonix vs 20 mutas to buy enough time to keep the mutas from doing econ damage to you. Personally I think 4 pheonix is a better investment than cannons in your minerals because you can gain some map control with them.
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I think it is kind of short sighted to claim that pheonix are not a reasonable response. A lot of people are assuming that you need to match production with the Zerg (pheonix to muta). This isn't true at all. The stalker can shoot Mutalisk as well. I believe that getting any pheonix at all will help you stop harass and also deter the Zerg from spending money on more mutalisk. In my previous post I suggested pheonix then continue to getting colossus. If you can have half as many pheonix (value wise) to the amount of mutalisk he has, in combination with any kind of stalker/sentry support (guardian sheild) then you will do fine in a head on battle and you will be able to harass the zerg because of pheonix mobility. In my mind the correct gas usage is something like this (subject to change based on scouting ofc) 20%sentry 20%stalker 30%pheonix 30% colossus.
I understand that I stated all that in a less than optimal way, but I think people assuming a 2 gate chrono'd pheonix response is the only pheonix response are wrong. Yes the Zerg might switch to a roach based army, but you dont have to have 100 supply of pheonix to be effective with them.
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HT/Immortal is extremely robust, absolutely annihilates the ling/muta, gets you blink on the way insures you from dying to a sudden roach switch, and adds extra damage against the spine crawlers.
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Zurich15326 Posts
This is exactly what is wrong with the strat forum ...
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EPT
