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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On November 02 2010 05:13 Kyouya wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 04:56 ERGO wrote:
protoss has always been this way, we never got a golden mouse. It isn't too hard to get really strong with protoss, but to reach the gigagosu level... well that is rare. This. Fortunately, TvZ is the best match up since BW.
Yeah.. but it is so sad that PvZ and especially PvT are so unfun to watch. I hope we can get the more 'skilled stuff' such as templar drops and base warp-ins. Because right now it is all about making the right mix of units, a clicking and force fielding properly. Jippie!
A-click units are not fun to watch  ..
But I think it will become better if they make protoss FE more viable, and not a rock-paper-scissors that it is now.
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On November 02 2010 03:13 Salv wrote:
I think there are some legitimate problems Protoss have, more so against Terran, but I wouldn't be so quick to suggest that there needs to be a change to the game. I might be wrong, but most of the games I have seen Protoss lose are usually games where they try to do something sneaky, like void ray rush, or warping in DT's over a cliff. There are some really strong macro Protoss players that I think don't do builds that really suit their strengths, which is longer games. Protoss late game is really strong I feel, so I would like to see some more safe-style play.
I agree with you now that I think about it. There's too much cutesy things that protoss are trying to do off of 1 or 2 base. You usually don't see much defensive/solid macro play from protoss although they are very capable of that playstyle because of the rate at which they can make workers.
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On November 02 2010 04:14 NIIINO wrote:
Kiwikaki / HuK to GSL3 and we have PvP finals
NA tournament wins always come with an asterisk. GSL is where its at. Huk and KiwiKaki arent even on the same level as one another. Kiwikaki is good PvZ because of his hyper aggressive play style and great micro but you even saw him execute nearly a perfect opener on SS against Idra and fall short when I think most people thought he had it wrapped up. HuK is the better all around player, but until we get to see him vs. more top competition from korea its hard to say this. I think Genius is the best one out there followed by Tester, but ya korean playstyle is stale so I dont even bother watching their replays anymore. Its probably got something to do with there being such a great need for a robotics facility that is holding protoss back. The void ray nerf made toss players in tournaments even more one-dimensional. I wish theyd rework it to make it useful at least in the way banshees are useful.
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Also, I like the idea of mothership, but it is a huge nerf from SC:BW protoss, where you could easily get multiple Arbiters which could do great things and opened up to a number of great strategies. Mothership is nothing like Arbiter for tournament play. Reavers were also great for defense, and attack. It could have helped Protoss early game a lot.
Fine, I can live with it if they don't want to put all those cool units, but man, why make it so limited? Terran can use Thors, tanks, PF, marauders, banshees, ravens, basically everything they had in SC:BW+some more. But the number of protoss units is decreased
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On November 02 2010 04:56 ERGO wrote:
protoss has always been this way, we never got a golden mouse. It isn't too hard to get really strong with protoss, but to reach the gigagosu level... well that is rare.
lol. Examples from BW have no relevance in SC2.
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On November 02 2010 03:17 clik wrote:
It definitely is interesting because on the Western front there are plenty of Protoss that make it through tournaments. Yet in the GSL it seems to be Terran and Zerg all the time, not that it is, it just seems like that.
I'm going to blame it on Protoss not being explored enough yet.
Exactly. Western Protoss in Western tournaments don't fare too badly. HuK performs pretty well in the tournaments he goes to. NEXGenius did well at Blizzcon.
I wonder if the GSL2 would look different if Tester had qualified.
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On November 02 2010 05:15 Beyonder wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 05:13 Kyouya wrote:On November 02 2010 04:56 ERGO wrote:
protoss has always been this way, we never got a golden mouse. It isn't too hard to get really strong with protoss, but to reach the gigagosu level... well that is rare. This. Fortunately, TvZ is the best match up since BW. Yeah.. but it is so sad that PvZ and especially PvT are so unfun to watch. I hope we can get the more 'skilled stuff' such as templar drops and base warp-ins. Because right now it is all about making the right mix of units, a clicking and force fielding properly. Jippie! A-click units are not fun to watch .. But I think it will become better if they make protoss FE more viable, and not a rock-paper-scissors that it is now.
I really tried to make drop play viable in the past when I was playing around with protoss but the drop ship is so slow and the speed upgrade isn't that viable to get =(. Plus do you make a dropship, immortal or collosus (assuming you went for speed upgrade on the dropship)
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The problem lies within the fact that other races have a "disadvantage" when the player makes a mistake early. A Protoss-player making a mistake early mostly just dies, right there, right then
I agree with this sentiment the most. When I'm playing Toss it is the same way. ONE mistake and you are on the back foot the entire game, there are no bunkers of PF's to fall back or, can't just not scan and drop x3 mules worth of energy you were saving to recover your economy, and no real scary mobile mid game pressure.
In PvT and PvZ, I'm turtling the ENTIRE game, the only pressure I can do is near the 50 food mark where you can poke with a few units at Zergs base to force some lings/roaches, but once the creep gets too far spread it becomes difficult to try and do anything aggressive unless your entire army is there. Saddest part is, turtling until your army is good enough is the goto answer from EVERYONE, even Day[9] (at when he did daily with JP) :/
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The simple answer is variance. GSL 1 and 2 aren't a big enough sample size to determine anything about how good or bad the protoss could or would be doing over a more proper sample size.
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As a protoss player, I'm very sad at protoss having this problem.
I do think is has something to do with the viability of certain units, for instance, i wouldn't get a starport in any normal game, unless i was trying something like VR rush, or phoenix all ins. I just feel like the protoss starport is not a very viable tech path to take at all, i could be wrong, i mean, i generally fetch my way all over diferent replays to watch more protoss air, but the ones i get are these all ins and the like.
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they nerfed stalker damage in beta i don't think they will redo this. I also think that pro toss players (swt) only use a few units, and only have the expand fast and tech up strat. So its almost like know one toss and you know them all. In ladder i don't even need to scout a toss anymore since its always the same.
And against the normal toss compositions spamming marauders or roaches only is quiet effectiv, as long as you can somehow snipe their t3 aoe stuff. Also alot of toss players don't know the word harassment.
So imo they only need some badass strategie nerd and they will make it way harder for the other races to win. Except spam roach marauder + some air to air only against us pls. And maybe building more then one observer helps to if the enemy has tunneling claws ^^; .
edit: when playing toss i love going stargate, maybe it only works because no one else does it. But it works quite well against all races in combinations with immortals. Because you can take out the units that are good against immortals quite easy with phenix + worker harass.
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Russian Federation370 Posts
Waiting when Nal_Ra go to SC2 and show Toss power.))
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small sample.. unknown true skill (of the various players) so far..
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T_T! Protoss are not UP, i think p players are not playing at their full potential lvl.
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I think there are several problems with protoss that have caused it's potential to stagnate when compared to the other two races. The two things that seem like the biggest problem are: scouting and units that are too easily countered and not cost effective in many situations.
First of all, during the early game, they are the worst race in terms of scouting. Probe scouting will be easily fended off once a marine or a couple zerglings hit the map. After this, they are not able to scout until they reach T2 units (or a very long tech). They can scout with observers, hallucination, or phoenix. All of these techniques are powerful, but leave one vulnerable in the early game. Since it takes so long to employ these scouting tools, protoss basically has to play safe and hope their build order isn't hard coutnered, or they have to take a risk and gamble in some rock paper scissors.
This is very evident in RO8 with our only remaining protoss. In one game, protoss tries to go blink stalkers and did basically no scouting during this process. He lost the gamble since terran went fast cloak banshee and thus lost. In another match, protoss decides to play it "safe" with 2 gate robo. He builds an observer first, but it's already too late, he's already lost. Terran went with a fast thor with marines and protoss stands absolutely no chance. He could have built an immortal first, but doing such a thing is also a risk. An immortal is quite useless in many situations. So if terran had massed marines then that immortal is worthless.
(obviously zerg can scout easily with overlord sacs and terran has scan or floating rax, all of which can be emploied much earlier than any of the protoss options).
So basically, protoss is really forced to gamble and a lot of the victories / defeats are soley based upon build orders and not actual player skill, which is a serious design flaw in my eyes.
As I mentioned, protoss has issues scouting, but that's not the only problem. Their other problem is the fact that they have too many gimicky units that are also very risky.
Their gateway units are all great and quite effective, but other than that the other units they can choose from I consider "gimicky." Maybe this isn't the right word, but what I mean is this: their units choices are basically great against very specific situations, but against a wide variety of things could be completely useless and worthless. I really think that immortals, phoenixes, dark templar, and void rays fall under this category. All of these units will either dominate or be dominated. Below I will explain.
Immortals: dominate marauders, siege tanks, and thors. However, generally if a terran sees a strong amount of immortals, then they will quickly get a ghost and then immortals are essentially uselss and terrible in terms of cost effectiveness. Therefore, making immortals is very risky business and requires very specific timing for them to be effective. The same concept can be applied to zerg. Immortals are great against roaches and ultras, but useless everywhere else.
Phoenix: The most gimicky unit in the game really. They can harass a little bit against zerg, but really it's hard to pull this off safely because often times zerg can just go KILL you as Day9 himself has mentioned. So basically the phoenix is amazing against mutas....and not much else. Sure they are quite good for certain situations such as maybe lifting up some tanks and other things like that, but again, they are just too gimicky and are paper weights and if any vikings or corruptors come out then they become useless.
Dark Templar: Such an expensive and time consuming tech choice. Huge gas dump, you are quite vulnerable to early pushes if you don't have your DTs out yet. Once you get DTs on the field you can often win the game outright if your opponent has no detection. But more often than not, your opponent will be able to survive and then be ahead of you economically and then you have a DT shrine that is basically a waste. One could argue that they might be marginal within an army with their sick DPS, but to me they don't seem very cost effective.
Void Rays: These used to be much more gimicky of course, but now blizzard seems to be pushing them in a direction where one could use them within an actual army. But again, they are simply too expensive and too easily countered thus making them very bad in terms of cost effectiveness. Terran can easily respond with a few vikings mixed in with their MM ball and void rays are a non-issue. Void rays seem worse against zerg. Zerg just needs to mass up some queens and get hydras or corruptors or anything really.
Other units I have issues with: Colossus and Carrier. Basically, the colossus is an excellent unit especially at a critical mass. But generally, any good zerg or terran will easily scout this and counter it quite effectively with vikings / corruptors. The Colossus is at its best during a very tight timing window in which you get them out without them being scouted. The Carrier...I won't actually comment on this unit since I rarely see it, but the problem with protoss isn't this super late game anyways.
Protoss have all these units that can just be countered too hard and aren't effective enough in too many situations. With other races, you may have a certain build that your opponent has countered, but generally you can effectively respond to make your build still quite cost effective. A good example is that if you go MM and quite marauder heavy, the protoss may respond with Immortals. All you have to do is get ghosts which isn't that far away tech wise and then you are in great shape until HTs hit the field. However, it takes soooooooooooooooooooooo long for Protoss to actually be able to get HTs. I mean really...you have to build a twilight council, then templar archives, then research storm, oh and let's not forget the amulet. Sure if you get all that, then you are in great shape, but reaching that point is the problem.
Anways, TL;DR: Protoss have a problem reaching late game because of a difficulty in scouting when compared to other races, and the fact that many of their build options are too easily countered, and there aren't any proper responses to make such builds cost effective after being countered.
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On November 02 2010 05:14 MasterFischer wrote:
Because lolrays were nerfed, and charge-up on rocks aint that special anymore ;D
And lolthors, lolcruisers, lolines, lolauders, lolshees, lolCVs are still not nefed...
Oh wait, loltralisk, lol-lords, mutalols, lolings, banelols, and that damn lolingpool
Oh yes, i can add lol in every unit too, bitch..
Void nerf wes way 2 harsh, thou ive never been much of a ray-user.
Edit: Im not complaining at the race, id say its fairly (not entierly) balanced atm.
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On November 02 2010 04:58 Xxavi wrote:
May be that's part of the problem? Because people complained that FF is OP, and rightly so, they made Protoss super weak early on, that Protoss has to rely on ideal FF placement?
As Terran, I think there's definitely something to Force Field. Handled perfectly, it can split armies so P gets to fight only a chunk of an enemy army at a time, turning equal food battles into fairly one sided affairs. It can deny early attacks like practically nothing else, or contain the opponent.
And if handled imperfectly, the Protoss can just flat out lose. The spell is incredibly binary.
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Protoss has been decline, they failed to make ro4 last season after some changes, and it's only gotten worse and worse on the korean (most competitive) front.
This time there were 3 protoss in RO16, 1 in RO8, which is significantly less than S1. 0 in RO4 is the same though.
The reason you see toss do so well in the west is simply because the level of play is lower than in korea.
People don't exploit the proper timings vs toss in the west, they often go for these passive styles that allow toss to tech up into his death ball.
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Ki Soo is not in it.
Inca and Genius had to play each other.
JMC is stupid and all in'd every game.
SangHo ran into Foxer
HongUn upset.
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Obviously because Terran marauders are a JOKE. They deal way too much damage relative to their hit points. Terrans simply aren't wise to build anything but Marauders. When are you going to fix this, Blizzard?
The problem isn't protoss, or any of the other units, the PROBLEM is the damn Marauder.
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EPT
