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On August 05 2010 07:00 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 06:57 Logo wrote:On August 05 2010 06:54 Floophead_III wrote:On August 05 2010 06:52 Logo wrote:On August 05 2010 06:48 Floophead_III wrote:On August 05 2010 06:45 Logo wrote:On August 05 2010 06:35 Floophead_III wrote:
You guys don't understand.
Scourge fill a very important role. They are high dps AtA units. Corruptors are AWFUL at stopping drops, taking out key targets, and removing support in big fights. Mutas are good at some things, but they're very expensive and weak in small numbers.
Examples:
Protoss opens proxy voidrays and you went spire thinking he was going robo since he had low gate count. You have 2 queens and a spire almost done when 2 voidrays suddenly appear in your main. Your first queen dies before your 2nd reaches it and the voidrays are about to charge and your spire pops. You make 6 mutas really quickly, but by that time your spire is dead, the voidrays are charged, and another is in your base. Your 6 mutas cannot deal with the charged rays and you lose. Scourge would've instantly killed the rays and brought you back into the game.
Terran is dropping everywhere with a force of marine/tank. You have banelings, lings, and mutas. Your mutas miss a drop heading to your 3rd and your lings/blings are sitting in the middle of the map. 12 marines 2 medivacs and a tank are sitting behind the 3rd's minline. You lose your mutas trying to engage directly, and when the slower blings arrive, T just picks up and runs away. Scourge would've dealt with this much better, either by intercepting the drops by patrolling, or by killing the runaway force.
I'm sure there's many other reasons scourge would be excellent units. Those situations are not realistic. Most players, even on seeing a low # of gateways, would go hydra den first. There's no need for a spire that early. If your opponent pops out 1-2 colossi with low gateways they're vulnerable to lings and until upgraded and in larger numbers hydras can stand up. So you'd go hydra den then spire (or just hydra den on seeing the VRs). In the second example you're engaging your mutas before the banelings get there which is a silly thing to do. If both forces engage at the same time he either has to pick up and risk getting the medivac killed or stay on ground and risk the banelings blowing everything up. Plus you can setup your OLs better to spot the drop and you have better overall vision than BW because of creep tumors. Anyways there's no doubt that the scourge would be useful, it's just that the # of situations they'd be useful is less than the # of situations in BW. Many people feel that getting a unit that covers more of the Zerg's gaps would be a better choice or that Scourge would be disruptive to some of what we have now. Personally I'm not anti-scourge, I just don't know how well they'd fit. Keep in mind that the inclusion of scourge would also likely mean something for the other races, it's not clear that Zerg is so bad to warrant an additional unit without the other races being compensated. Well here's a common situation. I'm using marine/tank/medivac/hellion in midgame push vs Z. He attacks my push in motion with some combo of ling/bling/roach/muta. There's a ledge nearby. I quickly pick up as much of my force as I can and drop it on the ledge, using whatever spare marines I can to kill mutas. I might lose 1 dropship before it fully unloads, but I get most of my units to safety and manage to do a bunch of damage to the zerg force. If there's scourge, I would've lost everything attempting that. 'common'? If the ledge is more than a small distance away you'll lose a large amount of your force, and that's provided the ramp up the legde (if there is one) isn't nearby. It seems like a very specific situation that it'd come in handy. Again I know there are situations where they're useful, it's just not as often as BW because you wouldn't be able to use scourge to counter phoenixes or vikings well and corruptors melt carriers and BCs. I do that pretty much every game there's isolated ledges. Kulas and LT are prime examples. Man, if you aren't seeing that type of play, you need to play some more abusive terrans LOL. I see people abuse ledges all the time, but never in a situation where I a) have mutas b) don't have enough mutas to quickly kill medivacs c) lack infestors d) am up against a terran with a strong tank force that prevents me from being able to pick off units in some other fashion and e) don't have drops for my banelings by this point which would counteract the medivac lift anyways. It's a lot of situations that all have to come together for your scenario to happen in a way that causes heavy losses for the zerg that can't have been avoided. And you're still like ignoring 1/2 of my point which is that I agree that scourge could be useful in some situations but it's undeniable that they're less useful as other than drops the only air unit that might be more efficiently killed by scourge is void rays which aren't frequently used ZvP past an early void ray rush for a reason. It's kind of ridiculous to force the Zerg to tech to a decent number mutalisks just because the Terran is getting medivacs though. Scourge can also be used on colossi  EDIT: I'll elaborate. You see a Terran getting medivacs and threatening drops. You get a spire and 8 mutalisks (1000/1000) to negate the drops. He gets 1-2 thors to complement his ground army (300/200-600/400). His army is now much more complete than yours, and he didn't have to sacrifice anything while teching to medivacs or thors. In the end, you're spending an assload of money to nullify a threat that doesn't cost anything for the Terran. It would be nice if Zerg had a cost-effective way to deal with medivacs, such as scourge. EDIT 2: Now that I think about it, I'd gladly trade corruptors for scourge lol (and banelings for lurkers while we're at it, though I really like banelings as well).
Yeah I'd probably make that trade as well. Like I said scourge are great (and fun!), but it's not clear they'd be useful in enough situations to be the zergs 'additional unit'. Anti-drop is pretty good, but how big of a problem is that for Zerg right now? Overtime it may be, but for right now I'd say it's not Zerg's biggest issue. ZvP you have hydras + OL scouting as anti-drop, ZvT drops are dangerous, but other things are even more so. If it is, then by all means play around with scourge.
Also infestors can counter drops decently well don't forget that (and they're good overall), especially if you have anything else that can shoot up.
It's also a little silly to say it costs the Terran nothing. If they're going bio they'll have the medivacs anyways, but then they're not really all that interesting in making Thors, If they went mech their medivac drops are going to be weaker as the medivacs are there just to drop and a single FG can hold units there to prevent their escape. In the case of them going mech -> medivacs the medivacs are an additional expense.
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Remember guys, Their is still hope for older units to be implemented. Their is 2 more expansions. Also I never played BW and Scourge looks so awesome I wanna go use it.
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On August 05 2010 07:13 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 07:00 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 06:57 Logo wrote:On August 05 2010 06:54 Floophead_III wrote:On August 05 2010 06:52 Logo wrote:On August 05 2010 06:48 Floophead_III wrote:On August 05 2010 06:45 Logo wrote:On August 05 2010 06:35 Floophead_III wrote:
You guys don't understand.
Scourge fill a very important role. They are high dps AtA units. Corruptors are AWFUL at stopping drops, taking out key targets, and removing support in big fights. Mutas are good at some things, but they're very expensive and weak in small numbers.
Examples:
Protoss opens proxy voidrays and you went spire thinking he was going robo since he had low gate count. You have 2 queens and a spire almost done when 2 voidrays suddenly appear in your main. Your first queen dies before your 2nd reaches it and the voidrays are about to charge and your spire pops. You make 6 mutas really quickly, but by that time your spire is dead, the voidrays are charged, and another is in your base. Your 6 mutas cannot deal with the charged rays and you lose. Scourge would've instantly killed the rays and brought you back into the game.
Terran is dropping everywhere with a force of marine/tank. You have banelings, lings, and mutas. Your mutas miss a drop heading to your 3rd and your lings/blings are sitting in the middle of the map. 12 marines 2 medivacs and a tank are sitting behind the 3rd's minline. You lose your mutas trying to engage directly, and when the slower blings arrive, T just picks up and runs away. Scourge would've dealt with this much better, either by intercepting the drops by patrolling, or by killing the runaway force.
I'm sure there's many other reasons scourge would be excellent units. Those situations are not realistic. Most players, even on seeing a low # of gateways, would go hydra den first. There's no need for a spire that early. If your opponent pops out 1-2 colossi with low gateways they're vulnerable to lings and until upgraded and in larger numbers hydras can stand up. So you'd go hydra den then spire (or just hydra den on seeing the VRs). In the second example you're engaging your mutas before the banelings get there which is a silly thing to do. If both forces engage at the same time he either has to pick up and risk getting the medivac killed or stay on ground and risk the banelings blowing everything up. Plus you can setup your OLs better to spot the drop and you have better overall vision than BW because of creep tumors. Anyways there's no doubt that the scourge would be useful, it's just that the # of situations they'd be useful is less than the # of situations in BW. Many people feel that getting a unit that covers more of the Zerg's gaps would be a better choice or that Scourge would be disruptive to some of what we have now. Personally I'm not anti-scourge, I just don't know how well they'd fit. Keep in mind that the inclusion of scourge would also likely mean something for the other races, it's not clear that Zerg is so bad to warrant an additional unit without the other races being compensated. Well here's a common situation. I'm using marine/tank/medivac/hellion in midgame push vs Z. He attacks my push in motion with some combo of ling/bling/roach/muta. There's a ledge nearby. I quickly pick up as much of my force as I can and drop it on the ledge, using whatever spare marines I can to kill mutas. I might lose 1 dropship before it fully unloads, but I get most of my units to safety and manage to do a bunch of damage to the zerg force. If there's scourge, I would've lost everything attempting that. 'common'? If the ledge is more than a small distance away you'll lose a large amount of your force, and that's provided the ramp up the legde (if there is one) isn't nearby. It seems like a very specific situation that it'd come in handy. Again I know there are situations where they're useful, it's just not as often as BW because you wouldn't be able to use scourge to counter phoenixes or vikings well and corruptors melt carriers and BCs. I do that pretty much every game there's isolated ledges. Kulas and LT are prime examples. Man, if you aren't seeing that type of play, you need to play some more abusive terrans LOL. I see people abuse ledges all the time, but never in a situation where I a) have mutas b) don't have enough mutas to quickly kill medivacs c) lack infestors d) am up against a terran with a strong tank force that prevents me from being able to pick off units in some other fashion and e) don't have drops for my banelings by this point which would counteract the medivac lift anyways. It's a lot of situations that all have to come together for your scenario to happen in a way that causes heavy losses for the zerg that can't have been avoided. And you're still like ignoring 1/2 of my point which is that I agree that scourge could be useful in some situations but it's undeniable that they're less useful as other than drops the only air unit that might be more efficiently killed by scourge is void rays which aren't frequently used ZvP past an early void ray rush for a reason. It's kind of ridiculous to force the Zerg to tech to a decent number mutalisks just because the Terran is getting medivacs though. Scourge can also be used on colossi EDIT: I'll elaborate. You see a Terran getting medivacs and threatening drops. You get a spire and 8 mutalisks (1000/1000) to negate the drops. He gets 1-2 thors to complement his ground army (300/200-600/400). His army is now much more complete than yours, and he didn't have to sacrifice anything while teching to medivacs or thors. In the end, you're spending an assload of money to nullify a threat that doesn't cost anything for the Terran. It would be nice if Zerg had a cost-effective way to deal with medivacs, such as scourge. EDIT 2: Now that I think about it, I'd gladly trade corruptors for scourge lol (and banelings for lurkers while we're at it, though I really like banelings as well). Yeah I'd probably make that trade as well. Like I said scourge are great (and fun!), but it's not clear they'd be useful in enough situations to be the zergs 'additional unit'. Anti-drop is pretty good, but how big of a problem is that for Zerg right now? Overtime it may be, but for right now I'd say it's not Zerg's biggest issue. ZvP you have hydras + OL scouting as anti-drop, ZvT drops are dangerous, but other things are even more so. If it is, then by all means play around with scourge. Also infestors can counter drops decently well don't forget that (and they're good overall), especially if you have anything else that can shoot up. It's also a little silly to say it costs the Terran nothing. If they're going bio they'll have the medivacs anyways, but then they're not really all that interesting in making Thors, If they went mech their medivac drops are going to be weaker as the medivacs are there just to drop and a single FG can hold units there to prevent their escape. In the case of them going mech -> medivacs the medivacs are an additional expense.
More and more Terrans are putting a few Thors in their bio army anyways, so that's not really an investment either. And it's really strong, and compliments the army well with tanks.
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How can you guys not see this being overpowered? I don't even think its worth explaining because of how obvious it is, so I'll just say this: Too many slow air units in SC2.
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With that "autocloning" feature that you talk about, Scourge seem very OP. But Scourge could very well be balanced by tweaking the numbers: speed, resources cost, damage,... I just feel that Zerg gameplay could be more fun with this kind of units. I don't want to play Sc1 all over again, but I think this type of unit got a really interesting design and fits very well in an RTS setting.
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On August 05 2010 06:28 Zanez.smarty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 06:20 llortyag wrote:
dumbass boring banelings made scourge and lurkers go out of the game cuz it would be repetitive
Alright, so If they removed the Baneling and added back Lurker and Scourge you would be happy right? I suppose you are one of those who also wants Hydralisks moved back to T1 and Roaches to T2... I have seen these two suggestions repeated ad nauseum since the beginning of beta, and what people don't seem to get is that if that happened, the Zerg would be 90% SC1. Why don't people stop reaching back to SC1 for their ideas and go nuts creating NEW and INTERESTING ideas. I hope there are no SC1 units coming back for multiplayer in the expansions. I would love to see them all in Single Player... but not multiplayer. New fun stuff plz.
wow you are a retard... dont put words in my mouth i didn't say move hydras and shit. corrupter has to be the most boring unit in the game so why not have scourge.
The point of the game is to be fun not to have new units and graphics, and if adding scourge and lurkers made it more fun then why not put them in? Zerg has changed so much already just cuz 2 units come back doesn't make it a sc1 clone. If you replaced the marine with Richard Simmons would you be like Ohh myy gooddd i luv Richard Simmons Marine is so old and boring... Blizzard never thinks of functionality - look at bnet. They go for being different and looking cool instead but that is another story to tell to another retard
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10387 Posts
lol for just a unit test, this thread attracted a lot of (unwarranted) rage.
Personally, I think Zerg would benefit a lot from Scourge, maybe nerfing the AI and placing it in Hive tech would be really good. Although it would make Colossi close to useless, so idk about that..
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On August 05 2010 09:15 ArvickHero wrote:
lol for just a unit test, this thread attracted a lot of (unwarranted) rage.
Personally, I think Zerg would benefit a lot from Scourge, maybe nerfing the AI and placing it in Hive tech would be really good. Although it would make Colossi close to useless, so idk about that..
It would make carriers, motherships, void rays, battlecruisers, colossus all close to useless, mind you.
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Sooo cuteee 
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On August 05 2010 09:18 HardcoreBilly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 09:15 ArvickHero wrote:
lol for just a unit test, this thread attracted a lot of (unwarranted) rage.
Personally, I think Zerg would benefit a lot from Scourge, maybe nerfing the AI and placing it in Hive tech would be really good. Although it would make Colossi close to useless, so idk about that.. It would make carriers, motherships, void rays, battlecruisers, colossus all close to useless, mind you.
cause nerf is non existent in this universe. maybe make them + to light so that they can take down vikings/phoenix/muta/banshee harasses but still not go OH HAI THAR EXPENSIVE BC I'LL JUST GO A MOVE AND KILL YOU FOR 1/4 THE COST OF MY SCOURGE :D::D:D:D
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10387 Posts
On August 05 2010 09:18 HardcoreBilly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 09:15 ArvickHero wrote:
lol for just a unit test, this thread attracted a lot of (unwarranted) rage.
Personally, I think Zerg would benefit a lot from Scourge, maybe nerfing the AI and placing it in Hive tech would be really good. Although it would make Colossi close to useless, so idk about that.. It would make carriers, motherships, void rays, battlecruisers, colossus all close to useless, mind you.
A majority of those units you don't even see in the XvZ matchup anyways.. Plus Scourge can easily be balanced by changing its overkill AI and balancing the speed. A critical mass of BCs are untouchable by Scourge anyways. Adding a unit like the Corsair or Valkyrie (basically AoE AtA unit) would help counter Scourge quite handily.
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Wtf is with all the hate about bringing scourge back. Scourge was one of the best units that felt really zergish. They would fill the gap that is messing right now because corruptors are incredibly bad at stopping drops, being a nice support unit. Their only real perpose is the bulk of your Anti air force to destroy capital ships and thats it.
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As for people argueing that it wont be so imba just change the stats of the unit..... I really like the idea of increasing the damage verus light because that would fit well with the corruptor and mutalisk.
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If they swapped corruptors with scourge, fine.
Either way scourge would rape colossus so hard.
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is awesome32282 Posts
I love the model. Auto cloning makes them very strong, but that could be adjusted in cost, or movespeed/armor/unit type.
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make a late game upgade that let banelings morph into scourge and vice-versa. Would make the banelings usefull late game.
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I don't know if someone has suggested this yet but instead of typing you could use those textboxes on YouTube and edit in what you want to say when the video is uploaded.
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Why hasn't someone just built a Starcraft Classic mod for SC2 already? Pretty much all the units/effects are in there, those that aren't could just temporarily be adjusted SC2 units.
All - Remove macro mechanics.
Terran - All SC1 units except Valkyrie, just convert Viking to do the same thing.
Protoss - Remove Stalker and Sentry, move Immortal to Gateway and convert it to Dragoon. Move Sentry to Robotics Facility and convert it to Reaver. Use Warp Prism for Shuttle. Convert Phoenix to Corsair, add built in Scout, remove Void Ray or convert it to Arbiter. Use Sentry Force field effect for stasis.
Zerg - Remove Queen, remove unburrow from spine/spore crawlers, remove roach or convert to lurker, convert infestor to defiler, convert corrupter to devourer, convert broodlord to guardian.
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A neat idea would be to "Create a scourge" by loading banelings into an overlord.
If they allowed you to explode the banelings in the OV as an air to air attack, and the damage would be dependent on how many banelings are in the OV. Instead of just having overlords around the map as scouts, you could have some loaded ones scattered and take out medivac drops before they arrive haha.
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On August 05 2010 10:10 Disposition wrote:
A neat idea would be to "Create a scourge" by loading banelings into an overlord.
If they allowed you to explode the banelings in the OV as an air to air attack, and the damage would be dependent on how many banelings are in the OV. Instead of just having overlords around the map as scouts, you could have some loaded ones scattered and take out medivac drops before they arrive haha. Thats a little to far fetched lol....
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EPT
