Dont know if this is old i just checked my bnet acc and it was there.
Check this part:
Additional License Limitations. blah blah blah...You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
C. use the Service for any "e-sports" or group competition sponsored, promoted or facilitated by any commercial or non-profit entity without Blizzard's prior written consent.
Im really sad that Blizzard is turning into a cashmachine instead of the great game makers that they used to be...
Dont know if this is old i just checked my bnet acc and it was there.
Check this part:
Additional License Limitations. blah blah blah...You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
C. use the Service for any "e-sports" or group competition sponsored, promoted or facilitated by any commercial or non-profit entity without Blizzard's prior written consent.
Im really sad that Blizzard is turning into a cashmachine instead of the great game makers that they used to be...
Your toughts, and keep it clean
How dare blizzard try to profit from their amazing games!
The more money blizzard is able to make from SC2 being a successful e-sport the more likely they are to put more effort into designing, balancing, supporting, etc. SC2 and any other RTS they make in the future.
On May 28 2010 07:00 iloahz wrote: "any" group competition? Like say we have a little competition with 3 people inside our own house we gotta have Blizzard's written consent?
Only if you're sponsored, I think. That's what it says.
On May 28 2010 07:00 iloahz wrote: "any" group competition? Like say we have a little competition with 3 people inside our own house we gotta have Blizzard's written consent?
If you're "sponsored, promoted or facilitated by any commercial or non-profit entity", then yes.
As the massive capitalist scum I am, I love the way blizzard is handling this.
Great game makers have bills, too. They aren't going to be douchebags about this... "Hey Blizzrad can I hold a tournament at my school tomorrow? Blizzard:"Go ahead, have fun!"
On May 28 2010 07:00 iloahz wrote: "any" group competition? Like say we have a little competition with 3 people inside our own house we gotta have Blizzard's written consent?
Only if you're sponsored, I think. That's what it says.
sponsored, promoted or facilitated
not that they're going to stop you but they seem to want the legal rights to.
haha this isn't just lan If you enter a tournament you need blizzards written consent!
they can only sue like well everyone that has entered an online tourney for sc2beta since this got implimented into the tos
Ehh... I'm not sure how I feel about this one. It's their game, but hopefully they aren't too restrictive.
Hopefully Blizzard will just give consent with the bigger tournaments (TSL) and not mind too much about some of the smaller ones (TLI, GLHF). I think if SC2 is to really take off like BW did, it will be important to have these smaller scale tournaments not getting crushed by Blizzard
On May 28 2010 07:00 Grebliv wrote: got to get blizzard to sanction your local lans :D, or basement lan for that matter now that I read it again.
There is no LAN... At least a semi LAN (go to b.net first, then can LAN) would be great though, especially for the small get-togethers that made BW so much fun.
On May 28 2010 07:05 Molybdenum wrote: Ehh... I'm not sure how I feel about this one. It's their game, but hopefully they aren't too restrictive.
Hopefully Blizzard will just give consent with the bigger tournaments (TSL) and not mind too much about some of the smaller ones (TLI, GLHF). I think if SC2 is to really take off like BW did, it will be important to have these smaller scale tournaments not getting crushed by Blizzard
On May 28 2010 07:00 Grebliv wrote: got to get blizzard to sanction your local lans :D, or basement lan for that matter now that I read it again.
There is no LAN... But there should be. At least a semi LAN (go to b.net first, then can LAN) would be great.
guess that hasn't sunk in yet.
not that lan has anything to do with it anyways, you apparently can't even enter the 100$ zotacs now without a little note from blizzard saying you can go. Well I guess zotac getting the note would be enough but :S
On May 28 2010 07:03 IrT4nkz wrote: Commercial or non-profit entity
Does this mean any in-house competitions by teams or something has to go through Blizzard? :|
Legally, non-profit is a type of business where the profit is invested back into the business or something like that. It doesn't mean anyone not making a profit.
i think this is just to cover loop holes kespa might try and jump through ;p
im not bothered by it, if they wanted to shut down tournaments they would have done so by now. Any talk about current tournaments in beta blizzard has been really happy and surprised with it.
Also, keep in mind... these ToS's are written by lawyers covering bases, not blizzard handing down commandments to be ruthlessly upheld.
Dont know if this is old i just checked my bnet acc and it was there.
Check this part:
Additional License Limitations. blah blah blah...You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
C. use the Service for any "e-sports" or group competition sponsored, promoted or facilitated by any commercial or non-profit entity without Blizzard's prior written consent.
Im really sad that Blizzard is turning into a cashmachine instead of the great game makers that they used to be...
Your toughts, and keep it clean
i really do not understand where this mentality of Blizzard is doing this for milking cash off the E-Sport community comes from...
Sounds rather strict, perhaps they can put a cap on the prize money in tournaments they do not sanction? Running a small $50 tournament for fun is one thing, having progamers who make a career out of this is vastly different.
The problem I see with that though is that they could use loopholes and let each match be considered a tournament and then give them money a little at a time? Who knows, if I was Blizzard I would probably be too freaked about loopholes to allow tournaments of less than $X to occur without requiring sanction.
It's simple really. Blizzard has seen the future and are grabbing e-sports by the balls. They probably won't bother small tournaments but this is their way to get a piece of the e-sports pie. From a business perspective, doing anything else at this point in time would be madness.
On May 28 2010 07:00 PJA wrote: How dare blizzard try to profit from their amazing games!
"C. use the Service for any "e-sports" or group competition sponsored, promoted or facilitated by any commercial or non-profit entity without Blizzard's prior written consent."
In other words, sites like teamliquid are in the OBLIGATION to ask for permission to make a tournament even if there is no prize money and stuff.
So care, if Blizzard doesnt wants to, there wont be a next TSL.
I know a lot of people will give me shit, but I am in the group that believes they are doing the right thing, and I support them. I definitely enjoy what the SCBW scene has become, but they (KESPA and other organizations) are making a massive profit off of a game they did not create, nor have the right to use without permission. Yes, they market the pro-gaming scene, pay for all of the expenses, and have created something out of very little (turning a single video-game into a niche culture), but in reality, it would not have existed without SC, and the LEAST they could do is attempt to work out a fair deal and receive legal consent.
On May 28 2010 07:00 PJA wrote: How dare blizzard try to profit from their amazing games!
"C. use the Service for any "e-sports" or group competition sponsored, promoted or facilitated by any commercial or non-profit entity without Blizzard's prior written consent."
In other words, sites like teamliquid are in the OBLIGATION to ask for permission to make a tournament even if there is no prize money and stuff.
So care, if Blizzard doesnt wants to, there wont be a next TSL.
I doubt TL could be classified as a non-profit entity unless it is charging for something I am not aware of. It's a legal term that doesn't really mean exactly how it sounds.
On May 28 2010 07:00 iloahz wrote: "any" group competition? Like say we have a little competition with 3 people inside our own house we gotta have Blizzard's written consent?
You just need written consent from Blizzard, it is probably there so they can review what is going on so they don't have some company charging people to play Blizzards game.
Edit: Also read the entire TOS instead of highlighting the most disturbing thing on its own. It is there to protect their property. Most likely they will have a "Tournament License" for companies that are going to throw a huge tournament with a big prize. ie: OSL MSL WCG and so on.
On May 28 2010 07:03 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote: Great game makers have bills, too.
Every time someone makes a comment like this, regarding some huge corporation making sure they secure any potential profits, it's a slap in the face to everyone out there who actually does have to worry about paying bills. Or, you know, worse.
On May 28 2010 07:00 PJA wrote: How dare blizzard try to profit from their amazing games!
"C. use the Service for any "e-sports" or group competition sponsored, promoted or facilitated by any commercial or non-profit entity without Blizzard's prior written consent."
In other words, sites like teamliquid are in the OBLIGATION to ask for permission to make a tournament even if there is no prize money and stuff.
So care, if Blizzard doesnt wants to, there wont be a next TSL.
I doubt TL could be classified as a non-profit entity unless it is charging for something I am not aware of. It's a legal term that doesn't really mean exactly how it sounds.
I tought non-profit actually ment non-profit, but as you say if its a legal term and I might be/am wrong. Still, it doesnt make it right that they mention "E-sports" as if that was something they own, its like we had to pay the creator/s (or their heirs) of basketball everytime you play the game.
There's really nothing stopping people from just having a large number of games in a row as just "casual" games, then graciously giving "donations" to the person who wins the final game. It's not competetive at all
Dont know if this is old i just checked my bnet acc and it was there.
Check this part:
Additional License Limitations. blah blah blah...You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
C. use the Service for any "e-sports" or group competition sponsored, promoted or facilitated by any commercial or non-profit entity without Blizzard's prior written consent.
Im really sad that Blizzard is turning into a cashmachine instead of the great game makers that they used to be...
Your toughts, and keep it clean
How dare blizzard try to profit from their amazing games!
The more money blizzard is able to make from SC2 being a successful e-sport the more likely they are to put more effort into designing, balancing, supporting, etc. SC2 and any other RTS they make in the future.
So you are saying starcraft II is at this moment such a good game because of all the money they made with wow?
Dont know if this is old i just checked my bnet acc and it was there.
Check this part:
Additional License Limitations. blah blah blah...You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
C. use the Service for any "e-sports" or group competition sponsored, promoted or facilitated by any commercial or non-profit entity without Blizzard's prior written consent.
Im really sad that Blizzard is turning into a cashmachine instead of the great game makers that they used to be...
Your toughts, and keep it clean
i really do not understand where this mentality of Blizzard is doing this for milking cash off the E-Sport community comes from...
You don't? Let me tell you: unadulterated greed.
They saw how big BW got in the esports scene and figured that they could be making a LOT more by simply retaining the rights to all tournaments/sanctioned events and charging money to high profile events to be held. I doubt they will bother with the small grassroots stuff. But stuff like the MSL and the Starleague I can see them requiring a fraction of the money to go to themselves.
As a business move, it'll probably rake in a lot of money for Blizzard...or it could kill off the fledgling SC2 competitive scene. It remains to be seen. Probably the former though.
I personally do not agree with Blizzard's attempts to control esports. Sure they made the game, but that in no way should allow them to restrict the freedom to hold competitive tournaments or events using this game. No other game has ever done this, it is a limitation on the rights of the game-buyers. It's as if Wizards of the Coast went ahead and said "You can't hold Magic tournaments without our consent." Simply makes no sense. The company makes the game. They sell the game. The game is now in the customer's possession and he/she should be allowed to do whatever he/she wants to (within legal bounds).
I don't have anything against blizzard making money for the game they made, but a huge part of success will be part of community effort which will attract more people to the scene. And blizzard is going to take advantage of that.
Once the tourneys and the scene gets bigger, blizzard will ask more money, actively punishing community effort for their success. That's what they wanted to do with bw too in Korea too. And there is good arguments for both kespa and blizzard there. But with sc2 blizzard is taking all the power and that's a little too greedy in my opinion.
With bw we have a great game and freedom, and it needed both to be as succesful as it is today. Not gonna get as lucky again it seems.
Speculation is good to a degree, but worrying to death about something that hasn't happened yet is unproductive. So far Blizzard has been frugal in giving permission for small tourneys to happen and until that ceases I don't think there's much to worry about. Like other posters said, this is just lawyer jargon meant to prevent loopholes.
On May 28 2010 07:00 PJA wrote: How dare blizzard try to profit from their amazing games!
"C. use the Service for any "e-sports" or group competition sponsored, promoted or facilitated by any commercial or non-profit entity without Blizzard's prior written consent."
In other words, sites like teamliquid are in the OBLIGATION to ask for permission to make a tournament even if there is no prize money and stuff.
So care, if Blizzard doesnt wants to, there wont be a next TSL.
I doubt TL could be classified as a non-profit entity unless it is charging for something I am not aware of. It's a legal term that doesn't really mean exactly how it sounds.
I tought non-profit actually ment non-profit, but as you say if its a legal term and I might be/am wrong. Still, it doesnt make it right that they mention "E-sports" as if that was something they own, its like we had to pay the creator/s (or their heirs) of basketball everytime you play the game.
If basketball had been created today I am sure you would have to pay to host big tournaments for that too
Basically to be considered a non-profit entity you actually do need to be making money somehow, but there is no money leftover for the owners at the end of the day, it is just used for running the business. Wikimedia, the company running Wikipedia is a good example. They have a lot of money flowing through, but it's used to maintain Wikipedia and whatever else they might be doing, they don't actually profit.
I am not sure if the donations TL probably recieves would qualify for them to be a non-profit organization. I suppose it MIGHT, but it seems unlikely to me that Blizzard would want to block tournaments where there's no money to be had by the organizers.
On May 28 2010 07:00 iloahz wrote: "any" group competition? Like say we have a little competition with 3 people inside our own house we gotta have Blizzard's written consent?
Only if you're sponsored, I think. That's what it says.
Does this mean blizz will hunt TL.net's ass down during say TSL 3 if its sponsored by razor or w/e?
It's in Blizzard's best interest to keep the amount of bureaucratic red tape as low as possible for minor events. E-sports isn't gonna grow if you can't even host a small tournament w/o jumping through hoops. E-sports not growing = greedy CEOs not getting money, so I don't think we have to worry too much.
I don't think it will be a smart business decision for blizzard to shut down every LAN it hears about that doesn't have its consent. As far as I can see this will be for major tournaments, so blizzard has some control over other organizations associated with it's name. Obviously like a tournament sponsored by the Pedophilia Association of America will not look good for blizzard. Basically, this just gives them the ability to shut something down that they believe will reflect badly upon them and the game.
Once I buy the damn game, I should be able to fucking do whatever the shit I want to do with it.
If I've bought 100 copies of the game legally, and then set up my own mini tournament using those games and set up a prize pool, I shouldn't need to ASK Blizzard on whether I can set up a tournament or not.
They're trying to expand this idea of "intellectual property" rights into something completely absurd. We already acknowledge that the game was made by Blizzard and that any other game that attempts to copy the game is an infringement on IP rights. But to go this far... the fuck....?
LOL Makes me laugh in disgust.
It doesn't matter if they're nice about it like: "Hey blizzard, can I run a school tourney?" "Yeah! Have fun!"
Fuck their "kindness." We shouldn't have to ask, no, the other organizations that actually took action and brought Starcraft into the e-sports scene should NOT have to ask permission from blizzard.
Dont know if this is old i just checked my bnet acc and it was there.
Check this part:
Additional License Limitations. blah blah blah...You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:
C. use the Service for any "e-sports" or group competition sponsored, promoted or facilitated by any commercial or non-profit entity without Blizzard's prior written consent.
Im really sad that Blizzard is turning into a cashmachine instead of the great game makers that they used to be...
Your toughts, and keep it clean
This really isn't a big deal guys. All it is saying is that an established group cannot use the game for an event without permission. If it's a couple people playing a tournament, that's fine. It seems more of a safety clause than something that is going to be regularly enforced. I also highly doubt blizzard will reject any TL event.
- You and your friends can still have LANs, tournaments, or anything without worrying about this. Even if you managed to technically violate the TOS in some way, Blizzard wouldn't bother to enforce it.
- A website or TV company that wants to have a sponsored SC2 competition will very likely need approval from Blizzard. The other adjectives besides "sponsored" are there to cover loopholes. They all basically mean what we think of as "sponsored".
Also, more money for Blizzard leads to more or better updates to SC2 from Blizzard, so Blizzard making money is in itself good for us. I'm sure there are downsides to this decision, as always, but it's logical to agree with this decision unless you believe the downsides are worse than what we gain in return.
Moreover, if you're making something (money, exposure, etc.) from running an SC2 competition with major help or sponsorship from some other corporation, then I don't think it's unreasonable for Blizzard to ask for a piece of the large pie, anyway.
Kespa just got owned. With an ownage stick. That is, presumably, somewhat what this is about. Very nice wording that lets people kind of do their own stuff, but means kespa's model needs to come begging to bliz on their knees to be able to function. Funtimes.
On May 28 2010 07:03 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote: Great game makers have bills, too.
Every time someone makes a comment like this, regarding some huge corporation making sure they secure any potential profits, it's a slap in the face to everyone out there who actually does have to worry about paying bills. Or, you know, worse.
Oh yeah, don't forget that everyone who wants Blizzard to make SC2 more of a competitive game should be happy to hear this.
Now there is a very clear link between Blizzard making SC2 better for competitive players and Blizzard getting more revenue in return. SC2 becoming a widely successful e-sports game => Blizzard making significant revenue from the resulting e-sports tournaments, so they have a lot more motivation to make that their goal.
On May 28 2010 07:56 Destro wrote: in this thread: people over reacting and thinks this will actually effect them playing in tournaments.
seriously, its legal jargon, they arent screwing you out of tournies. Chill.
It's not like we could do anything about it anyway. But if this kind of "legal jargon" had excisted at bw release, there wouldnt be a kespa vs blizzard argument, but kespa would basically be blizzards bitch so ofcourse it would've had an effect about bw tourneys. So why not sc2?
I don't think blizzard should have the right to do this, but they do. If it wasn't for competitve korean gamers like boxer, blizzard wouldn't know what epsorts are.
On May 28 2010 07:56 Destro wrote: in this thread: people over reacting and thinks this will actually effect them playing in tournaments.
seriously, its legal jargon, they arent screwing you out of tournies. Chill.
It's not like we could do anything about it anyway. But if this kind of "legal jargon" had excisted at bw release, there wouldnt be a kespa vs blizzard argument, but kespa would basically be blizzards bitch so ofcourse it would've had an effect about bw tourneys. So why not sc2?
Sorry you mis-understood, I was speaking about amateur tournies. aka not pro level.
for the players like you and i this really doesn't mean much. kespa should be dropping trow and bending over right about now though
This has been pretty much the obvious trajectory of blizzard's attempt to solidify their hold on their IP. If people don't start being very vocal and very persuasive this isn't going to end well for the game.
Or we can sit back and accept what we're being spoonfed despite the fact that the majority of the game content was player created or stolen from other companies in the first place.
On May 28 2010 08:19 L wrote: Hey, what's up guys.
This has been pretty much the obvious trajectory of blizzard's attempt to solidify their hold on their IP. If people don't start being very vocal and very persuasive this isn't going to end well for the game.
Or we can sit back and accept what we're being spoonfed despite the fact that the majority of the game content was player created or stolen from other companies in the first place.
Your call.
sorry off topic a bit, but what content was stolen from other games.. im highly confused.
This, and more significantly SC2 having no LAN option, means there won't be any SC2 starleagues in Korea. It just doesn't make any sense to invest into building a brand when Blizzard can pull the plug whenever they want.
Browder mentioned you need to ask for permission if you're organizing any tournament at all sometime ago in an interview, from what I could gather, it's just or mostly a manner of keeping track of what's happening not a way to cash into the prize money and suck the sponsor's blood.
(It's somewhere in the link above I'm not sure which part though, but it was an interesting interview, some of the things they mention already happened or are happening.)
On May 28 2010 08:19 L wrote: Hey, what's up guys.
This has been pretty much the obvious trajectory of blizzard's attempt to solidify their hold on their IP. If people don't start being very vocal and very persuasive this isn't going to end well for the game.
Or we can sit back and accept what we're being spoonfed despite the fact that the majority of the game content was player created or stolen from other companies in the first place.
Your call.
sorry off topic a bit, but what content was stolen from other games.. im highly confused.
Games Workshop's tabletop series were gutted as the design base for WC and SC.
Step 1) Locate some topic that you can use against Blizzard(If you cannot make one recreate a topic from the past). Step 2) Convince people it is Blizzard's mad scheme to make millions off your hard work. Step 3) Let the people know Blizzard is out to get them some more. Step 4) Over react to the topic so other people will think it is a big issue. Step 5) Claim you won't buy the game or that Blizzard is stepping on your rights.
Frankly I am sick of all the Blizzard hate on these forums. There is constructive complaining and then there is the destructive that doesn't benefit anyone except yourself for bringing to light a grave issue Blizzard is going to cause, but really doesn't affect most who use this forum.
This is a TOS it is there for legal action not for Blizzard to enforce on all of their customers 24/7.
i mean its their product, they "should" be able to do what they want with it, and if history has shown anything, they were kinda forced to take these measures. I feel like we can trust them as our benevolent dictator though, so i have no qualms
I think this is a good move by Blizzard and it's totally reasonable for them to require permission for something like Korean Starleagues sponsored by large corporations or other large sponsored tournaments like the Razor TSL for example.
I just hope they won't use this policy to crush or complicate smaller tournaments like the weekly Zotac Cups (and I don't think they will).
But this isn't about SC2. Its about battle.net. All they're doing is just saying, "Look, if you want to play on OUR servers for money, get permission from us."
It doesn't clearly say anything about doing a LAN either, which is pretty big for larger e-sports tournaments. This is not the end of the world... of starcraft.
I'm going back to poker. They want to profit from anything they can, which I understand. What I don't like is the inability for TL (or anyone really) to host a tournament that rewards players with a cash payout. Imagine no HDH, no TLI, no altitude tournament. The future looks bleak.
If you aren't making a large amount of money, Blizzard won't care. The benefit of shutting down an unsanctioned tournament would have to outweigh the legal costs.
On May 28 2010 08:51 iCCup.Nove wrote: I'm going back to poker. They want to profit from anything they can, which I understand. What I don't like is the inability for TL (or anyone really) to host a tournament that rewards players with a cash payout. Imagine no HDH, no TLI, no altitude tournament. The future looks bleak.
You don't know what you are talking about. We have signed an agreement with Blizzard for our events for the past three years. It is a way for them not to have liability for tournament which use their products.
Nobody has the inability to do anything. This website is like 5000 chicken littles these days.
EPT
