Statistics and Odds and Ends (Thanks to Mystlord) + Show Spoiler +
The numbers inside parenthesis represent the player's record for the last 5 games played against the opponent's race in (W-L) format. The numbers between the above statistic represent the player's head to head record.
Both of these players are in pretty good shape right now, though they're nothing like what they were during their prime. The head to head stats are interesting because their first 4 encounters, Iris won, and their last 3 encounters, Hwasin has won. However, it's been more than a year since their last encounter, so anything can happen. Iris definitely hasn't lost his skill in TvT, since he has been dropping games against Leta, fbh, and Flash, who are all awesome TvT players. He's defeated NaDa, UpMagic, and MVP who are all average TvT players at least. Hwasin lost a game to go.go last night, but that was basically a pure build order loss, so it wasn't really an indication of his skill in this match up. In the past few games, his TvT play has been damn good, so expect a good game here.
As for Carthage 3 the map, it's mainly a fight between the two players for the middle expansions, so expect a relatively fast paced game here. However, this map does have the potential for Battlecrusier action, but I think one of them will make a mistake before then.
Jaedong is on a 3 game losing streak overall and has been complaining of tiredness for the past few days. This time is no different. After only 4 days since his last game (against Yarnc), Jaedong has to play again, this time versus Kal, one of the few Protoss players who could take on and take down Jaedong. However, he has been losing quite a few games against Zerg recently, losing games to July and ZerO (though they are some pretty good ZvP players, ZerO less so because that game was before ZerO found his second wind). Jaedong is certainly on one of his down curves, being the tired gamer that he is. However, he still hasn't lost his touch.
The map Heartbreak Ridge is starting to look like a Protoss graveyard in ZvP ever since YellOw beat Bisu on that map. In his past few games, ZerO has shown everyone a clinic on how to ZvP properly on Heartbreak Ridge, including some epic Queen usage.
Calm is on fire recently, breaking into #7 in this month's Power Rank, and an impressive 8-2 in his past 10 games. He has shown spectacular Mutalisk micro and a good grasp on strategies. The MSL champion fOrGG on the other hand is looking like a total idiot lately in TvZ. He's 0-3 in his last 3 games against Zerg, getting bested by EffOrt, Shine, and Jaedong, who he all had no trouble with in the past. However, he's had an entire week to rest and prepare for this game against Calm, so anything can happen.
The map Outsider is looking very back and forth in terms of ZvT. Initially thought to be a Terran favored map in this match up, Zergs have managed to turn the stats around with 2 Hatchery play, forcing the Terran to go defensive. Calm even beat Flash earlier this week on this map (although it was more like Flash was too greedy to put down turrets)
The first game is hard to call but I'll go with Iris because he's had the benefit of practicing more on Carthage 3.
The second game is crucial for Jaedong. He should take it since he's had a lot of time to practice seeing how his other games are all going to be ZvZ for a long time. Zergs are starting to do better on HBR (thanks to ZerO).
I have the exact same problem as kona, so hopefully someone else will be able to stream while our streams are down. I'm still very confused as to the source of my problem though, so it might be a while until I can figure my problem out.
I'm not exactly sure... I just restarted FMLE again, and it worked. Though I did restart it about 20 times prior to this restart, so I'm not sure what changed.
The numbers inside parenthesis represent the player's record for the last 5 games played against the opponent's race in (W-L) format. The numbers between the above statistic represent the player's head to head record.
Both of these players are in pretty good shape right now, though they're nothing like what they were during their prime. The head to head stats are interesting because their first 4 encounters, Iris won, and their last 3 encounters, Hwasin has won. However, it's been more than a year since their last encounter, so anything can happen. Iris definitely hasn't lost his skill in TvT, since he has been dropping games against Leta, fbh, and Flash, who are all awesome TvT players. He's defeated NaDa, UpMagic, and MVP who are all average TvT players at least. Hwasin lost a game to go.go last night, but that was basically a pure build order loss, so it wasn't really an indication of his skill in this match up. In the past few games, his TvT play has been damn good, so expect a good game here.
As for Carthage 3 the map, it's mainly a fight between the two players for the middle expansions, so expect a relatively fast paced game here. However, this map does have the potential for Battlecrusier action, but I think one of them will make a mistake before then.
Jaedong is on a 3 game losing streak overall and has been complaining of tiredness for the past few days. This time is no different. After only 4 days since his last game (against Yarnc), Jaedong has to play again, this time versus Kal, one of the few Protoss players who could take on and take down Jaedong. However, he has been losing quite a few games against Zerg recently, losing games to July and ZerO (though they are some pretty good ZvP players, ZerO less so because that game was before ZerO found his second wind). Jaedong is certainly on one of his down curves, being the tired gamer that he is. However, he still hasn't lost his touch.
The map Heartbreak Ridge is starting to look like a Protoss graveyard in ZvP ever since YellOw beat Bisu on that map. In his past few games, ZerO has shown everyone a clinic on how to ZvP properly on Heartbreak Ridge, including some epic Queen usage.
Calm is on fire recently, breaking into #7 in this month's Power Rank, and an impressive 8-2 in his past 10 games. He has shown spectacular Mutalisk micro and a good grasp on strategies. The MSL champion fOrGG on the other hand is looking like a total idiot lately in TvZ. He's 0-3 in his last 3 games against Zerg, getting bested by EffOrt, Shine, and Jaedong, who he all had no trouble with in the past. However, he's had an entire week to rest and prepare for this game against Calm, so anything can happen.
The map Outsider is looking very back and forth in terms of ZvT. Initially thought to be a Terran favored map in this match up, Zergs have managed to turn the stats around with 2 Hatchery play, forcing the Terran to go defensive. Calm even beat Flash earlier this week on this map (although it was more like Flash was too greedy to put down turrets)
Damn I've made huge fucking mistake and I've bet Red Sniper instead of Berserker Terran :/ Damn. Anyway I guess and hope that Kal will beat Jaedong and Calm will rape fOrGG, don't know about the TvT match.
hmm, could turn out either way: boring or very interesting.
- iris vs hwasin: go die painfully hwasin for letting down bisu yesterday. - kal vs jaedong: jd is the vast favourite here, but i can imagine an upset. mainly coz jd is tired as fuck. - calm vs forgg: the most obvious match imho: a convincing win by calm.
It seems to me like Iris tried to sneak the scv along the edge of hwasins main but got seen and decided against it. IMO he was going for either a hidden scout for later or was gonig to build a proxy in there.
When that failed he instantly puts up his CC at his nat.
Lots of vults out for both players. Hwasin starts a fight just vult vs vult now. Iris has a single tank. Hwasin decides to retreat his remaining vults.
MASSIVE battle between dozens of vultures and seige tanks outside hwasins main. Trying to break the contain. In the end only a single vulture of hwasins survives. Epic.
Iris is like 3-4 bases ahead. Iris sending a full expo worth of SCVs up a ramp to take hits from a lesser amount of seige tanks... possible BM dunno lol (prob not).
Wraith hunts down hwasins dropship.
Unless Hwasin decides to turtle more this will be over. Iris has a huge eco advantage.
On July 11 2009 19:06 o3.power91 wrote: Fun Fact: Jaedong's worst losing streak is 4 losses. He has had two 4 loss streaks in his record. The most recent one was before he won his first OSL.
Jaedong currently has a 3 loss streak. Will he reach the 4 loss streak again
On July 11 2009 19:06 o3.power91 wrote: Fun Fact: Jaedong's worst losing streak is 4 losses. He has had two 4 loss streaks in his record. The most recent one was before he won his first OSL.
Jaedong currently has a 3 loss streak. Will he reach the 4 loss streak again
On July 11 2009 19:09 Marine50 wrote: I can only see Jaedong loosing this from a cheese or timing attack or in a macro game where he is put behind earlier on
How many other ways are there to lose? xD Out micro?
On July 11 2009 19:09 Marine50 wrote: I can only see Jaedong loosing this from a cheese or timing attack or in a macro game where he is put behind earlier on
How many other ways are there to lose? xD Out micro?
Losing in a straight up game? That was the point I was trying to convey
JD didn't go all in. The probe spotted him and he stopped making hydras and is now going for a longer game. A lot of sair snipes by JD. He has plenty of lurkers out in the field too.
Drop in Kal's main Hydras everywhere. All probes gone. Lurkers and hydras wreaking havoc. ANOTHER DROP IN KAL'S NAT WITH ONLY 1 LURKER BUT GETS A LOT OF KILLS.
Jaedong got 15 kills on one lurker at Kal's nat and killed most of the probes from the main with the first drop. Kal can't come back from that kind of deficit.
Jaedong goes for another drop in Kal's main. This looks to be the finishing blow. I can't see an obs out for kal. Nice storms but not enough. All of Kal's tech gets taken out. Main nexus is dead. Jaedong just sending more units now to Kal's 3rd which is not defended.
On July 11 2009 19:30 T.O.P. wrote: Wow, Kal is so bad. Jaedong gives kal a advantage by letting a all in get scouted. Then Kal proceed to do everything wrong.
On July 11 2009 19:30 T.O.P. wrote: Wow, Kal is so bad. Jaedong gives kal a advantage by letting a all in get scouted. Then Kal proceed to do everything wrong.
That was not an all in, JD started droning again after the first 5-6 hydras and transitioned beautifully into a regular 5hatch hydra\lurk. Excellent game from Jaedong.
On July 11 2009 19:30 T.O.P. wrote: Wow, Kal is so bad. Jaedong gives kal a advantage by letting a all in get scouted. Then Kal proceed to do everything wrong.
? what r u talking about? he build some early hyds to let it look like an allin. kal build 7 cans or so for no reason while jd went standard 5 hatch
Kal's biggest problem in the game, besides having to play Jaedong, was letting all those sairs get scourged. He was blind to the doomdrop when with better control of the sairs he might have been able to see and deflect it.
Kals gameplan was so weird, I think the expected a drop cause he build cannons and left behind one HT but he kept losing sairs for no reason...hm. Great game by Jaedong nevertheless I still hope Kal will advance
Jaedong totally played Kal, after unintentionally letting Kal scout his hydras he stopped making them and was in lead due to cannons and sniped Gate and Forge.
Even though it wasn't an all-in, Kal should have had such a big economic advantage so that he should ahve won the game easily. Then Jaedong doom dropped and Kal was too slow with storms and did nothing with his army out in the field. Kal did not read Jaedong's build correctly and that's what caused him to lose.
On July 11 2009 19:34 disciple wrote: Kals gameplan was so weird, I think the expected a drop cause he build cannons and left behind one HT but he kept losing sairs for no reason...hm. Great game by Jaedong nevertheless I still hope Kal will advance
that was not a fake all in he switched to drones after being scouted but is still accepting a disadvantage to do this getting the forge/gw might have evened it up though, not sure
the single lurker dropped in the nat was beautiful
why was kal ahead economically? jd built like 6 hyds or so and then droned. kal got 5 or 6 cans at his nat, lost his forge and his first gateway afair. so i dont see an advantage at all.
On July 11 2009 19:35 EvoChamber wrote: Proper response to 3hatch hydra is sair/dt, i believe. Kal didn't do that at all.
How is that a proper responce ? Jaedong had Kals entrance under siege and had an overlord there protected by hidras . Kal played save but the drops got him by surprise .
On July 11 2009 19:34 T.O.P. wrote: This is like the Horang2 vs. Nada game. Nada defends against dt drop, only to get run over 10 minutes later. zvp is freaking imba.
What the hell? Horang2 is toss and Nada a Terran. That game means nothing relative to this game.
On July 11 2009 19:35 EvoChamber wrote: Proper response to 3hatch hydra is sair/dt, i believe. Kal didn't do that at all.
How is that a proper responce ? Jaedong had Kals entrance under siege and had an overlord there protected by hidras . Kal played save but the drops got him by surprise .
3hatch hydra means a very slow lair and very slow spire/scourge/overlord speed. Corsairs will either force more hydras and hurt the zerg econ even more (not to mention the overlord kills they'll score) or they'll force the hydras at the enemy choke back home. In the meantime Toss has total map control and can easily take a third while zerg is struggling to get on a solid economic footing.
On July 11 2009 19:37 Jefferson wrote: does it only look imba when JD is playing, or is PvZ pretty hard nowadays?
I read in a LR thread a few days after the zero vs bisu game that zergs went 27-8 in the last 35 pro zvp matches.
wow, thats really terrifying, is that the maps fault? or just game imbalance? sry for my questions, i'm kinda new to the scene
I'm guessing its the lack of good protoss that's the problem. I don't think it's the maps. I always thought Heartbreak was pretty hard for ZvP cuz it's easy for Protoss to secure a 3rd gas whereas its hell for Zerg to get a 4th.
On July 11 2009 19:37 Jefferson wrote: does it only look imba when JD is playing, or is PvZ pretty hard nowadays?
I read in a LR thread a few days after the zero vs bisu game that zergs went 27-8 in the last 35 pro zvp matches.
wow, thats really terrifying, is that the maps fault? or just game imbalance? sry for my questions, i'm kinda new to the scene
edit: and i allways thought p is the most ez to play :/
Its both: - Bisu was complaining about maps a couple months ago and looks like he was right. - Traditionally ZvP is the most imba matchup in Starcraft (closely followed by TvZ, with TvP the most even)
When people say Protoss is easy to play, they are referring to amateur level rather than pro level.
Calm has a hidden expo at 9 oclock while ForGG has his nat back and his min only but with no saturation. Mutas just killig ForGG's SCVs. ForGG is now breaking Calm's main. ForG loses all his tanks at Calm's nat.
Golis vs Muta/hydra. Golis come out on top. I don't know how both players are in econ now though...
On July 11 2009 20:04 Scaramanga wrote: konadora forgg wasnt a fluke msl winner, he just slumped straight afterward
er no, everyone just found out his niche of timing rushes and managed to adapt. it's how sync won his osl, and everyone knew how to counter his sparks rush, which is why he never came back to form after his osl win.
On July 11 2009 20:07 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Sync was still decent in proleague following his OSL win, which is more than can be said for Forgg.
there was no proleague in 2002. it can be said though he was OKAY before he transferred to KTF, THEN he slumped. similar to forgg how he was okay in lecaf before moving to KTF.
On July 11 2009 20:06 GTR wrote: er no, everyone just found out his niche of timing rushes and managed to adapt. it's how sync won his osl, and everyone knew how to counter his sparks rush, which is why he never came back to form after his osl win.
On July 11 2009 20:07 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Sync was still decent in proleague following his OSL win, which is more than can be said for Forgg.
there was no proleague in 2002. it can be said though he was OKAY before he transferred to KTF, THEN he slumped. similar to forgg how he was okay in lecaf before moving to KTF.
I seem to recall him still being decent when he was playing for KTF in proleague?
edit: or whatever the team leagues were called back then? Weren't they just "Team Leagues?"
On July 11 2009 20:04 Scaramanga wrote: konadora forgg wasnt a fluke msl winner, he just slumped straight afterward
er no, everyone just found out his niche of timing rushes and managed to adapt. it's how sync won his osl, and everyone knew how to counter his sparks rush, which is why he never came back to form after his osl win.
Imho thats a better description of Mind and his tvp.
On July 11 2009 20:22 konadora wrote: Anyone noticed how Zergs started raping after YellOw defeated Bisu?
DUN DUN DUN
Yellow basically canceled out the morale boost Bisu gave Protoss after beating bonjwa-Savior. After that series all the toss were like "Hey, PvZ is possible!" After Yellow's win all the Zerg are like "Wait. Protoss sucks lol."
On July 11 2009 19:48 Highways wrote: Its both: - Bisu was complaining about maps a couple months ago and looks like he was right. - Traditionally ZvP is the most imba matchup in Starcraft (closely followed by TvZ, with TvP the most even) When people say Protoss is easy to play, they are referring to amateur level rather than pro level.
SKT1 fanboy - CHECK immature "I hate Terrans" signature - CHECK
Don't you have anything better to do like watching Bisu's games in the OSL ? OH WAIT
On July 11 2009 19:48 Highways wrote: Its both: - Bisu was complaining about maps a couple months ago and looks like he was right. - Traditionally ZvP is the most imba matchup in Starcraft (closely followed by TvZ, with TvP the most even) When people say Protoss is easy to play, they are referring to amateur level rather than pro level.
SKT1 fanboy - CHECK immature "I hate Terrans" signature - CHECK
Don't you have anything better to do like watching Bisu's games in the OSL ? OH WAIT
What's with this post?
Bisu did complain Zergs figured out how to play on the maps better
On July 11 2009 19:48 Highways wrote: Its both: - Bisu was complaining about maps a couple months ago and looks like he was right. - Traditionally ZvP is the most imba matchup in Starcraft (closely followed by TvZ, with TvP the most even) When people say Protoss is easy to play, they are referring to amateur level rather than pro level.
SKT1 fanboy - CHECK immature "I hate Terrans" signature - CHECK
Don't you have anything better to do like watching Bisu's games in the OSL ? OH WAIT
I'm not a big fan of Bisu, but saying he always complains about maps is pretty far fetched. I recall one instance that could maybe be interpreted as complaining. Other than that it was just people asking him how he felt about a certain map. Should he lie?
ForGG represents everything I hate about modern TvZ. Chogo Chogo Goliaths with 90% focus on macro and one bust timing. The annoying thing is how well it works. Yes, Calm won this game, but notice how freaking hard he had to work for it. Even after killing 20+ SCVs, he was still up against the wall at his ramp, before taking the game away. Fine, ForGG's a great player and understands the game very well, but he plays like a robot with a fixed recipe - it just sickens me out having to watch. I really hope the remainder of the OSL doesn't turn into a slugfest of TvZ mech.
On July 11 2009 20:04 Scaramanga wrote: konadora forgg wasnt a fluke msl winner, he just slumped straight afterward
Completely agreed Scara 3-0ing Jaedong and 3-1ing flash is no fluke.
forgg's macro and timing in his series against Jaedong is what won him the MSL. Not map imba -_-
rofl yeah maps have no play what so ever
IIRC 3 of the maps favored T>Z (Tiamat was 100% TvZ too) and the other one was 50-50.
That pic always makes me laugh And then I feel sorry for Jaedong.
Both players played excellently in that series. ForGG's timing and macro were amazing. I had never seen TvZ like he played it. Game 1 on Colosseum stunned me --- mass tanks and 4-dropship infantry drops? Crazy, crazy macro. Jaedong played sharp but the maps tipped the balance so that there was no way to win against ForGG's already great play. Neither player choked, they both played great, which is exactly when map balance plays a big role in deciding the fate of the series.
edit: Funny how Jaedong completely wrecked Hwasin on those same maps in the semifinals.
Just watched ForGG vs Calm. Wow! Calm seriously held that game when with his superior harrass and army movement. I think ForGG should have just busted when Calm was putting up his base at 9 o clock.. might have just won it there by taking out the hydra den sooner and pushing up the ramp before 9 was up and running.
On July 11 2009 19:48 Highways wrote: Its both: - Bisu was complaining about maps a couple months ago and looks like he was right. - Traditionally ZvP is the most imba matchup in Starcraft (closely followed by TvZ, with TvP the most even) When people say Protoss is easy to play, they are referring to amateur level rather than pro level.
SKT1 fanboy - CHECK immature "I hate Terrans" signature - CHECK
Don't you have anything better to do like watching Bisu's games in the OSL ? OH WAIT
Oh God, what kind of a douche You're buddy?
The kind of douche that does not make excuses whenever their favourite player loses.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m31/smilee80/banner.jpg)
Iris <Carthage 3> 
Kal <Heartbreak Ridge> 
Jaedong
![[image loading]](http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/Chuck_Norris_Approves.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i34.tinypic.com/33ykvbd.jpg)
