In the wake of one of the most anticipated Bo5's in years the TL Staff would like to remind you all about good posting habits in Live Report threads. Indeed, over the past few weeks the staff have noticed a severe deterioration in the quality of Live Report threads and from here on in 2 day bans will be issued freely by mods for poor posts in these threads.
Here are some examples from tonights Stars vs FoX match which will be ban worthy from now on.
On March 01 2009 15:59 Sadistx wrote: God, free is a homo, let's hope Mind can counter it.
On March 01 2009 15:59 nataziel wrote: fucking double cheesing fag.
On March 01 2009 15:55 MorningMusume11 wrote: OMFG NO GAY SHIT PLZ JUST DIE FREE
Calling progamers "fags", "homos", "pieces of shit", "fucking double cheesing fag" and the like are completely unacceptable. Maintain respectful towards progamers even if your favorite progamer just got cheesed into oblivion. Failure to do adhere will result in a ban.
On March 01 2009 16:29 Seraphim wrote: KEEP CRYING TERRANS, PROTOSS "IMBA" JUST PWNED YOU ONCE AGAIN
All caps posts which beg the opposing side to flame back are unacceptable as they lead to the thread becoming a shitfest. Failure to adhere will result in a ban.
Other things that will be ban worthy include - PROTOSS IMBA (in caps or not) - 1a2a3a jokes - Moderate flaming/flame wars (to moderators discretion) - Posting like a moron - Anything a moderator deems bannable - Posting simply "gg" before either player types out
To avoid being banned, simply think before you press post. Consider whether your post is adding anything to the discussion, making thread better in any way, and whether your post is respectful.
The moderators do not wish to kill the fun in the thread, so by all means, have a good time - but please be mindful of the quality of your posts.
Thanks TL Staff
EDIT: For clarity, these standards are ONLY applicable to Live Report threads. You can 1a2a3a all you like anywhere else. Well, maybe not in strategy unless you have a deathwish...
Good thing, LR threads are supposed to be more permissive about less content hype one liners but they dont have to degenerate into mass flaming progamers.
Nice post plexa Only thing I guess I disagree with is the banning of protoss imba jokes, I think they are an important part of the development of brood war culture :p Like during the Xellos, Nada, oov, Boxer era everyone was constantly whining "terran imba" When savior reigned you had good and respected players on this board arguing that defilers were imba and needed a nerf. I think it's kinda funny that it's protoss' "turn" so to speak.
Thank you so much for this, I've been running around acting moral posting-police without much luck. I'm gonna be pointing so much fingers in the near future *hiss hiss hiss, evil giggle etc*
On March 01 2009 19:37 KlaCkoN wrote: Nice post plexa Only thing I guess I disagree with is the banning of protoss imba jokes, I think they are an important part of the development of brood war culture :p Like during the Xellos, Nada, oov, Boxer era everyone was constantly whining "terran imba" When savior reigned you had good and respected players on this board arguing that defilers were imba and needed a nerf. I think it's kinda funny that it's protoss' "turn" so to speak.
Its gotten out of hand though, you can go to a thread in the general section with no relation to protoss or starcraft and suddenly someone bursts out with a "1a2a3a" joke.
Its obviously good if its in threads where the subject might be linked to the claims and its intelligent talking and not D level idiots trying to create excuses for losing.
wth is "moderate flaming"? I mean I agree on people mindlessly insulting should get banned, but a lil agitation is part of what makes progaming fun. FBH would agree with me. I mean when Savior beats FBH in an important bo5 or vice versa I would not like to miss the fanboys zynical comments. Its part of any sports and imo, the Starcraft fanboys are reaally mild, look at soccer fan songs or stuff..
Thanks, finaly some order. I used to read them when i was at work to keep up with whats going on but stopped when they became kind of a joke. Lately, not just in live report threads people go overboard with their posts too much if you ask me.
On March 01 2009 20:09 Jayson X wrote: Thanks, finaly some order. I used to read them when i was at work to keep up with whats going on but stopped when they became kind of a joke. Lately, not just in live report threads people go overboard with their posts too much if you ask me.
Much of the behaviour I generally see in GG.net threads is starting to show up here, generally from recently joined netizens. I'm not writing this to throw dirt, but somehow you can't help suspecting a connection there..
On March 01 2009 20:06 damenmofa wrote: wth is "moderate flaming"? I mean I agree on people mindlessly insulting should get banned, but a lil agitation is part of what makes progaming fun. FBH would agree with me. I mean when Savior beats FBH in an important bo5 or vice versa I would not like to miss the fanboys zynical comments. Its part of any sports and imo, the Starcraft fanboys are reaally mild, look at soccer fan songs or stuff..
Well, instead of saying "WHAT THE FUCK FBH YOU STUPID PIECE OF SHIT GO QUIT SC AND DIE IN A FIRE" you'd say " ahahahahha Savior made FBH eats his words". This isn't a soccer community and we don't have songs.
On March 01 2009 21:22 FirstBorn wrote: Well, instead of saying "WHAT THE FUCK FBH YOU STUPID PIECE OF SHIT GO QUIT SC AND DIE IN A FIRE" you'd say " ahahahahha Savior made FBH eats his words". This isn't a soccer community and we don't have songs.
On March 01 2009 22:36 miseiler wrote: I disagree with the 1a2a3a joke ban.
I don't make them myself, but as someone said earlier this is part of our broodwar culture. It's a meme.
I just don't understand why it bothers people so much.
Me too, the point of the joke is that Protoss is the "easy race" and I don't really see how this can be denied, and it doesn't even stop at the B level (some say C level) - most if not all of the successful foreigners are all Protoss players. True Protoss requires a lot more than 1a2a3a but it definitely is a lot easier than the other races.
On March 01 2009 22:36 miseiler wrote: I disagree with the 1a2a3a joke ban.
I don't make them myself, but as someone said earlier this is part of our broodwar culture. It's a meme.
I just don't understand why it bothers people so much.
It contributes nothing. It falls under "doesn't add to the discussion". It's a shallow opinion. The only good shallow opinions are for cheering, like "Bisu is awesome!!"
If someone watches a protoss game and feels like the protoss won easily when he shouldn't have, then that person can start a meaningful post game discussion about it. If they don't care enough about it to do so, or they're incapable, then they aren't permitted to simply recite a meme instead.
I don't really join in with the live report threads because I'm usually either at the events or watching other stuff. However, I do think this is a good step towards making the threads less huge/chaotic (and not in a good way.) I don't think it contributes anything to call players 'fags' or 'homos' it just makes the poster sound like a close-minded, keyboard happy moron.
It annoys me especially because I've met a lot of the guys who people diss here and they don't deserve that kind of trash talk on a regular basis - heck some of the younger ones were so delighted to hear they had foreign fans (Especially the likes of Flash whose fans were also really happy to hear he is famous outside of South Korea.) - it'd probably demotivate them like crazy if they knew some people were mindlessly jumping on capslock band wagons to call them names.
I'm not asking people to care about anything beyond the games themselves if they don't wish to - but when you've had to sit with a player who is only 16 after a loss and watch the poor kid crying (I'm not going to say who it was, but I felt so bad for him.) then hearing people calling him names online just seems like such a waste of space upon what I know is such an oft open-minded and intelligent SC community (aside from blogs at times lol.)
Here are some examples from tonights Stars vs FoX match which will be ban worthy from now on.
On March 01 2009 15:59 Sadistx wrote: God, free is a homo, let's hope Mind can counter it.
On March 01 2009 15:59 nataziel wrote: fucking double cheesing fag.
On March 01 2009 15:55 MorningMusume11 wrote: OMFG NO GAY SHIT PLZ JUST DIE FREE
thnx mate you may consider a spoiler warning for the next time .... ppl should get banned for THIS too. its so annoying that even admins forget to put in spoiler tags ...
On March 02 2009 00:04 NeverGG wrote: I don't really join in with the live report threads because I'm usually either at the events or watching other stuff. However, I do think this is a good step towards making the threads less huge/chaotic (and not in a good way.) I don't think it contributes anything to call players 'fags' or 'homos' it just makes the poster sound like a close-minded, keyboard happy moron.
It annoys me especially because I've met a lot of the guys who people diss here and they don't deserve that kind of trash talk on a regular basis - heck some of the younger ones were so delighted to hear they had foreign fans (Especially the likes of Flash whose fans were also really happy to hear he is famous outside of South Korea.) - it'd probably demotivate them like crazy if they knew some people were mindlessly jumping on capslock band wagons to call them names.
I'm not asking people to care about anything beyond the games themselves if they don't wish to - but when you've had to sit with a player who is only 16 after a loss and watch the poor kid crying (I'm not going to say who it was, but I felt so bad for him.) then hearing people calling him names online just seems like such a waste of space upon what I know is such an oft open-minded and intelligent SC community (aside from blogs at times lol.)
/rant.
they were calling free names after he built 2 gates in minds base then went dt seems quite acceptable to me
On March 02 2009 00:04 NeverGG wrote: I don't really join in with the live report threads because I'm usually either at the events or watching other stuff. However, I do think this is a good step towards making the threads less huge/chaotic (and not in a good way.) I don't think it contributes anything to call players 'fags' or 'homos' it just makes the poster sound like a close-minded, keyboard happy moron.
It annoys me especially because I've met a lot of the guys who people diss here and they don't deserve that kind of trash talk on a regular basis - heck some of the younger ones were so delighted to hear they had foreign fans (Especially the likes of Flash whose fans were also really happy to hear he is famous outside of South Korea.) - it'd probably demotivate them like crazy if they knew some people were mindlessly jumping on capslock band wagons to call them names.
I'm not asking people to care about anything beyond the games themselves if they don't wish to - but when you've had to sit with a player who is only 16 after a loss and watch the poor kid crying (I'm not going to say who it was, but I felt so bad for him.) then hearing people calling him names online just seems like such a waste of space upon what I know is such an oft open-minded and intelligent SC community (aside from blogs at times lol.)
/rant.
they were calling free names after he built 2 gates in minds base then went dt seems quite acceptable to me
Enough nerd rage - I hear it too often from you in person along with a certain other player/commentator. Be quiet or next time we're out I will throw an ice bucket at you <3
On March 02 2009 00:04 NeverGG wrote: I don't really join in with the live report threads because I'm usually either at the events or watching other stuff. However, I do think this is a good step towards making the threads less huge/chaotic (and not in a good way.) I don't think it contributes anything to call players 'fags' or 'homos' it just makes the poster sound like a close-minded, keyboard happy moron.
It annoys me especially because I've met a lot of the guys who people diss here and they don't deserve that kind of trash talk on a regular basis - heck some of the younger ones were so delighted to hear they had foreign fans (Especially the likes of Flash whose fans were also really happy to hear he is famous outside of South Korea.) - it'd probably demotivate them like crazy if they knew some people were mindlessly jumping on capslock band wagons to call them names.
I'm not asking people to care about anything beyond the games themselves if they don't wish to - but when you've had to sit with a player who is only 16 after a loss and watch the poor kid crying (I'm not going to say who it was, but I felt so bad for him.) then hearing people calling him names online just seems like such a waste of space upon what I know is such an oft open-minded and intelligent SC community (aside from blogs at times lol.)
/rant.
they were calling free names after he built 2 gates in minds base then went dt seems quite acceptable to me
Maybe you shouldn't come into a thread about a new forum policy about what is acceptable that an admin just opened in accordance with other staff who feel the quality of live report threads have deteriorated and basically say "but I think this is acceptable", it's not helping anyone.
On March 02 2009 00:04 NeverGG wrote: I don't really join in with the live report threads because I'm usually either at the events or watching other stuff. However, I do think this is a good step towards making the threads less huge/chaotic (and not in a good way.) I don't think it contributes anything to call players 'fags' or 'homos' it just makes the poster sound like a close-minded, keyboard happy moron.
It annoys me especially because I've met a lot of the guys who people diss here and they don't deserve that kind of trash talk on a regular basis - heck some of the younger ones were so delighted to hear they had foreign fans (Especially the likes of Flash whose fans were also really happy to hear he is famous outside of South Korea.) - it'd probably demotivate them like crazy if they knew some people were mindlessly jumping on capslock band wagons to call them names.
I'm not asking people to care about anything beyond the games themselves if they don't wish to - but when you've had to sit with a player who is only 16 after a loss and watch the poor kid crying (I'm not going to say who it was, but I felt so bad for him.) then hearing people calling him names online just seems like such a waste of space upon what I know is such an oft open-minded and intelligent SC community (aside from blogs at times lol.)
/rant.
they were calling free names after he built 2 gates in minds base then went dt seems quite acceptable to me
Maybe you shouldn't come into a thread about a new forum policy about what is acceptable that an admin just opened in accordance with other staff who feel the quality of live report threads have deteriorated and basically say "but I think this is acceptable", it's not helping anyone.
On March 02 2009 00:35 tomatriedes wrote: God, what's up with Mind fans?
ps- I'd also like to see a ban on live commentators using 'rape' to describe games. On a computer screen it's ok but out loud it sounds wrong.
Haha - I'm a girl and I use 'rape' in an SC context all the time. It shocked my friend the first time I did it and he couldn't quite believe I didn't care. I can see how people might find it offensive though even if they're not female.
On March 02 2009 00:35 tomatriedes wrote: God, what's up with Mind fans?
ps- I'd also like to see a ban on live commentators using 'rape' to describe games. On a computer screen it's ok but out loud it sounds wrong.
Haha - I'm a girl and I use 'rape' in an SC context all the time. It shocked my friend the first time I did it and he couldn't quite believe I didn't care. I can see how people might find it offensive though even if they're not female.
It actually bothers quite a few people. There are forums where it's not even allowed. I wish TL was one of them.
On March 02 2009 00:35 tomatriedes wrote: God, what's up with Mind fans?
ps- I'd also like to see a ban on live commentators using 'rape' to describe games. On a computer screen it's ok but out loud it sounds wrong.
Haha - I'm a girl and I use 'rape' in an SC context all the time. It shocked my friend the first time I did it and he couldn't quite believe I didn't care. I can see how people might find it offensive though even if they're not female.
I'd also like to see anything even hinting at spoiling the outcome in other threads be more than a 2 day ban as well. Someone decided to ruin the GOM finals for me with the title of a thread just hours after it aired. I never bothered to watch the games because I already knew who won. It's not that hard to just title the thread [GOM SPECIAL SPOILER 2], and anyone who watched it and cares can click. Adding spaces, then something about elo peaks, bonjwas, a race, etc doesn't prevent spoiling it because in forum mode the whole thread title is displayed. Not everyone can watch every game live, and if the thread becomes crazy important, a mod can change the title in a week. Thanks.
the 1a2a3a thing is so dumb now its unbelievable. thanks mods for making it bannable. just like the "been doing this for yearrss" thing got repeated so much it was everywhere and something that was so funny and could have been used in a much more clever way and lasted longer, was picked up by any newb and used it so much trying to "fit in" to TL. what a disaster.
Nice, I also thought the quality of posts in live report threads had deteriorated somewhat lately. Having a crappy wireless connection often means I'm stuck with reading LR threads while or after the games are played. I'm not usually bothered by massive crap-posts (if it's a long thread I can just assume it'll last oh, about 2 pages? And just skip further ahead ^^) but yeah it can get slightly annoying sometimes and I'm happy about cracking down on it a bit.
I actually read the warning at the top of the Jaedong vs Bisu Bo5 thread (I didn't catch the games live sadly, but saw them all on Gomtv's vod page) and instantly opened the closed threads forum in another tab to check if there had been any lolworthy bans so far. =P
On March 02 2009 00:35 tomatriedes wrote: God, what's up with Mind fans?
ps- I'd also like to see a ban on live commentators using 'rape' to describe games. On a computer screen it's ok but out loud it sounds wrong.
Haha - I'm a girl and I use 'rape' in an SC context all the time. It shocked my friend the first time I did it and he couldn't quite believe I didn't care. I can see how people might find it offensive though even if they're not female.
On March 02 2009 00:35 tomatriedes wrote: God, what's up with Mind fans?
ps- I'd also like to see a ban on live commentators using 'rape' to describe games. On a computer screen it's ok but out loud it sounds wrong.
Haha - I'm a girl and I use 'rape' in an SC context all the time. It shocked my friend the first time I did it and he couldn't quite believe I didn't care. I can see how people might find it offensive though even if they're not female.
It should be bannable word.
No it shouldn't. "Rape" is the best way to explain, for example, what FlaSh did to Stork in Bacchus '08.
On March 02 2009 00:35 tomatriedes wrote: God, what's up with Mind fans?
ps- I'd also like to see a ban on live commentators using 'rape' to describe games. On a computer screen it's ok but out loud it sounds wrong.
Haha - I'm a girl and I use 'rape' in an SC context all the time. It shocked my friend the first time I did it and he couldn't quite believe I didn't care. I can see how people might find it offensive though even if they're not female.
It should be bannable word.
No it shouldn't. "Rape" is the best way to explain, for example, what FlaSh did to Stork in Bacchus '08.
Wonder if pro gamers like when they hear that they raped someone, I would think they like that they "owned" player x
On March 02 2009 00:35 tomatriedes wrote: God, what's up with Mind fans?
ps- I'd also like to see a ban on live commentators using 'rape' to describe games. On a computer screen it's ok but out loud it sounds wrong.
Haha - I'm a girl and I use 'rape' in an SC context all the time. It shocked my friend the first time I did it and he couldn't quite believe I didn't care. I can see how people might find it offensive though even if they're not female.
It should be bannable word.
No it shouldn't. "Rape" is the best way to explain, for example, what FlaSh did to Stork in Bacchus '08.
Or as Tastless said game 2 JD vs Bisu: "Someone should call the police becuase Jaedong is just raping everywhere."
I would like to add one more thing of my own personal sentiments....
Please don't EVER say "gg" in the live report threads unless that player actually typed out "gg" already because too often I am stuck at work or somewhere where I rely on the live report threads and seeing twenty premature gg's for both sides for every small victory during the game is beyond frustrating.
On March 01 2009 18:15 alffla wrote: wht about stuff like "OMG JAEDONGGGGGGGGGGGGGG" ?
I'm sure the point is to prevent offensive comments, rather than venting your frustration at the result.
I don't think you want to know how close to blind rage I've been everytime I read through the LR threads. So it actually would prevent any offensive comment and me being banned because of it.
I would also encourage to fire warning shots in the direction of stupid posts of all kinds, read "OMFG", "LOL", "ROFL". I'm reading TL for 6 years, I created my account like 3 years ago and never stopped reading or posting. I have a postcount of 200, just because I don't post when I don't think it would contribute ANYthing to the discussion or when I'm not sure about it being funny, useful or whatnot.
On March 02 2009 04:08 semioldguy wrote: I would like to add one more thing of my own personal sentiments....
Please don't <font size="3">EVER</font> say "gg" in the live report threads unless that player actually typed out "gg" already because too often I am stuck at work or somewhere where I rely on the live report threads and seeing twenty premature gg's for both sides for every small victory during the game is beyond frustrating.
Thank you SO MUCH for mentioning this. This one in particular tends to drive me crazy as well. I think the game is over and the people who are still reporting are just lagging behind the person who said "gg" and wind up really confused when the game keeps going.
Can we add referring to forge/cannon FE as Bisu Build in any live report thread as a 2 day bannable offense too? Someone mentioned that in the Bisu/Jaedong thread and it had always annoyed me.
On March 02 2009 03:57 thunk wrote: Are you going to put a cap on fanboyism or is it going to be a situational and on a case-by-case basis?
We will ban totally arbitrarily to quench our thirst for power. + Show Spoiler +
situational & case-by-case is more reasonable than really prohibiting fanboyism :p
Yea, well, representing your player is the main reason anyone posts in Live Report threads at all^^
But you should not post to bash opponents. Seems kinda silly afterwards too.. your idol wins, but it's an empty victory if the opponents is a 'shitfag' or whuteva. Or if your idol looses it's very embarrassing.
----8<--------
Thanks admins, the GOM LR thread suited my taste perfectly :D
(edit: wait, could use more of the exciting ALL CAPS!! ^_^ )
On March 02 2009 00:35 tomatriedes wrote: God, what's up with Mind fans?
ps- I'd also like to see a ban on live commentators using 'rape' to describe games. On a computer screen it's ok but out loud it sounds wrong.
Haha - I'm a girl and I use 'rape' in an SC context all the time. It shocked my friend the first time I did it and he couldn't quite believe I didn't care. I can see how people might find it offensive though even if they're not female.
It should be bannable word.
No it shouldn't. "Rape" is the best way to explain, for example, what FlaSh did to Stork in Bacchus '08.
Wonder if pro gamers like when they hear that they raped someone, I would think they like that they "owned" player x
Judging by the "yawn rape" part of the interview, it seems like he understood, unless something was lost in translation.
On March 02 2009 04:08 semioldguy wrote: I would like to add one more thing of my own personal sentiments....
Please don't <font size="3">EVER</font> say "gg" in the live report threads unless that player actually typed out "gg" already because too often I am stuck at work or somewhere where I rely on the live report threads and seeing twenty premature gg's for both sides for every small victory during the game is beyond frustrating.
Definitely. This should even be made into a bannable offense. It's unbelievably annoying.
long overdue post imo. this place was turning into x17 ;; and im sick of seeing gay being used as adjective to describe something stupid or lame.. it' s so childish
In addition to bans, Fakesteve and I will be driving to peoples home's to deliver punches to the face. Don't worry about the details and mumbo jumbo - just don't suck.
On March 02 2009 06:11 Kennigit wrote: In addition to bans, Fakesteve and I will be driving to peoples home's to deliver punches to the face. Don't worry about the details and mumbo jumbo - just don't suck.
I heard a story about this one time, this guy tried to mug kennigit on a subway. Kennigit broke his arm using pure ninja reflexes of death. He will come to your house.
On March 02 2009 05:54 cujo2k wrote: long overdue post imo. this place was turning into x17 ;; and im sick of seeing gay being used as adjective to describe something stupid or lame.. it' s so childish
This.
You even have the line "- Homophobic comments will get shoved way up your ass." in Ten commandments and yet it seems that official understanding on TL is gay = some lame bullshit.
I just want to say that mods here are really awesome and are of the highest caliber. The quality poster to retard rate is much higher here on Teamliquid than any other forum I've visited and part of that is because the mods here do such a great job enforcing their rules. Seriously, give yourselves a pat on the back.
Being extra serious is a good tone... because extra super serious is really cool and doesn't make it look like we're crying in nerdrage over someone insulting our nerdhero.
Nope, just makes good logical sense, so let's be extra super serious all the time.
A+++ Plexa. I had complained to Manlyfesto about how childish/bad some of the threads make TL look, glad someone is instituting some moderation on it. Thanks!
Maybe you guys can consider looking into people who post results or updates of matches that are simultaneously happening with another match?
Some of us can/choose only to follow one match live while preferring to see the actual VODS of other matches for the night. Yet other people discriminately insert comments or spoiler bait on a thread not dedicated for that matchup.
Like the last KHAN vs Stars happening along with SKT vs Hwaseung...people would continually mistype/spoiler what's happening on the other match. Some mistyped in another thread but left the information up for people to see .
Reading a LR thread, I'm prepared to get spoiled for the matchups and previous games that the players on both teams played in but knowing the stuff that's happening in the other thread is not what I signed up for...
mistake or not, under spoiler or not it's just off topic and imo very disrespectful to post such stuff.
Also you should make a rule that if you create a live report thread then you must stay and update for the whole duration of the match. I find people who create and then piss off until 10 hours later very annoying.
With the 1a2a3a jokes, I thought it was aimed at lower levels rather than progaming. Particular iccup (D and C levels) were Protoss is indeed a noob no skill race. At progaming protoss is the least successfull race.
On March 02 2009 09:35 Highways wrote:Particular iccup (D and C levels) were Protoss is indeed a noob no skill race.
I don't think you get it. Protoss is not a "no skill race" at any level. If that were true, a day 1 SC player would be able to take toss and beat C players. This DOES NOT HAPPEN, EVER. Get out.
Holy shit thank you Jesse for bringing this up. Also, you should also say something about people posting results from other matches in other LR threads. This pissed me off a lot, and one person even forgot to put spoiler tags and spoiled everything for like shit ton of people.
Hmmz so these live report threads are in the tourney forum, never really found them, hence my low postcount. Or well honestly I have never bothered to look for them since I dont care about progaming.
I understand most of the whining against badmouthing progamers, but in my opinion it should not be a bannable offense. It should only be looked down upon the community, but not made "illegal".
In my ideal world, there would be no need to restrict free speech, as it can never do more harm than the act of regulating it could.
I respect the decisions made by the staff however, and despite not agreeing with it in principle, I know that in practice it will raise the general quality of the forum. Kids will think twice before posting any inflammatory remarks.
On March 02 2009 10:21 Yurebis wrote: I understand most of the whining against badmouthing progamers, but in my opinion it should not be a bannable offense. It should only be looked down upon the community, but not made "illegal".
In my ideal world, there would be no need to restrict free speech, as it can never do more harm than the act of regulating it could.
I respect the decisions made by the staff however, and despite not agreeing with it in principle, I know that in practice it will raise the general quality of the forum. Kids will think twice before posting any inflammatory remarks.
Free speech is fucking stupid.
I don't think anybody has a right to come to teamliquid and post white power propaganda do I? No.
Alot of the kids around here (literally kids under 18 or so) come here and post hatefull stupid shit about video game players .... it is spreading ugly hatefull bullshit just the same.
On March 02 2009 10:21 Yurebis wrote: I understand most of the whining against badmouthing progamers, but in my opinion it should not be a bannable offense. It should only be looked down upon the community, but not made "illegal".
In my ideal world, there would be no need to restrict free speech, as it can never do more harm than the act of regulating it could.
I respect the decisions made by the staff however, and despite not agreeing with it in principle, I know that in practice it will raise the general quality of the forum. Kids will think twice before posting any inflammatory remarks.
This has absolutely nothing to do with free speech or the restriction of it.
For people who cannot watch a stream (for whatever reason) and just want to follow the game it is just useless clutter. It has not benefit whatsoever. In fact it is very annoying and actually detrimental to the flow of the thread and the forum as a whole, which is why it certainly does not have to be tolerated. It's just like spam, are you going to tell me that spam should be allowed because regulating it restricts free speech? Would you stand in my drive-way, say STUPID FAG and claim to be protected by free speech? TL is after all a private forum, so free speech doesn't apply anyway.
On March 02 2009 10:21 Yurebis wrote: I understand most of the whining against badmouthing progamers, but in my opinion it should not be a bannable offense. It should only be looked down upon the community, but not made "illegal".
In my ideal world, there would be no need to restrict free speech, as it can never do more harm than the act of regulating it could.
I respect the decisions made by the staff however, and despite not agreeing with it in principle, I know that in practice it will raise the general quality of the forum. Kids will think twice before posting any inflammatory remarks.
This has absolutely nothing to do with free speech or the restriction of it.
For people who cannot watch a stream (for whatever reason) and just want to follow the game it is just useless clutter. It has not benefit whatsoever. In fact it is very annoying and actually detrimental to the flow of the thread and the forum as a whole, which is why it certainly does not have to be tolerated. It's just like spam, are you going to tell me that spam should be allowed because regulating it restricts free speech? Would you stand in my drive-way, say STUPID FAG and claim to be protected by free speech? TL is after all a private forum, so free speech doesn't apply anyway.
My opinion is that the forum is in general really well moderated in terms of quality, the main concern here and how i read this "thread indication" is that normally lack of content is more permissive in LR threads, i mean, its more acceptable to post your feelings like "go Jaedong you can do this" and normally cheering a player doesnt interrupt the flow of the thread. However, this permissiveness has came to some people as an indicator of "free posting" or "free speech", so there have been a huge increase in "hate posts" in those threads. While i can understand cheering posts or exclamations posts (and normally there are 5/6 of these consecutive posts that dont add too much to the thread) the hate posts are simply annoying, and the problem is not that they dont add anything, but that they disrupt the flow and provoke other readers/watchers encouraging a nonsense flamewar.
On March 02 2009 11:38 likeaboss wrote: I think this is silly you should be encouraging competitive rivalryness. I think its a little overkill and someone just got butthurt and made this
I don't see how competitive rivarlyness and stuff like Plexa quoted it are mutually exclusive at all.
about damn time for this thread, people have been going crazy in live report threads saying whatever the hell they feel like for so long it's ridiculous!
I'm watching the GOM special match now, but before I know who won, I'm going to request a ban to the person who made the thread "[translation] Bisu interview" if Bisu won. I realize there's a tiny tiny possibility it could be about something else or about him losing, but based on the fact that koreans don't care about ELO, I'm 99% certain he won based solely on that thread title and its timing. There's always a "[translation] League winner interview" thread the day after a big game, not so much for the loser. I'm watching the games now, but with a preconceived notion of what will happen. If I'm wrong I'll come back and edit this out.
It's happened too many times now Margarita, I agree. Worst one was GOM finals the next day was a [Spoiler] Bisu for Bonjwa thread.... Hmm i wonder who won lol
I'm watching the GOM special match now, but before I know who won, I'm going to request a ban to the person who made the thread "[translation] Bisu interview" if Bisu won. I realize there's a tiny tiny possibility it could be about something else or about him losing, but based on the fact that koreans don't care about ELO, I'm 99% certain he won based solely on that thread title and its timing. There's always a "[translation] League winner interview" thread the day after a big game, not so much for the loser. I'm watching the games now, but with a preconceived notion of what will happen. If I'm wrong I'll come back and edit this out.
it's an old interview, it's not about gom
someone did indeed make a thread about gom winner interview though and spoiled the match for me with his thread title (which I then proceeded to change)
I'm watching the GOM special match now, but before I know who won, I'm going to request a ban to the person who made the thread "[translation] Bisu interview" if Bisu won. I realize there's a tiny tiny possibility it could be about something else or about him losing, but based on the fact that koreans don't care about ELO, I'm 99% certain he won based solely on that thread title and its timing. There's always a "[translation] League winner interview" thread the day after a big game, not so much for the loser. I'm watching the games now, but with a preconceived notion of what will happen. If I'm wrong I'll come back and edit this out.
are you REALLY proposing banning people who put the effort to translate interviews for the non-korean speaking community?
I'm watching the GOM special match now, but before I know who won, I'm going to request a ban to the person who made the thread "[translation] Bisu interview" if Bisu won. I realize there's a tiny tiny possibility it could be about something else or about him losing, but based on the fact that koreans don't care about ELO, I'm 99% certain he won based solely on that thread title and its timing. There's always a "[translation] League winner interview" thread the day after a big game, not so much for the loser. I'm watching the games now, but with a preconceived notion of what will happen. If I'm wrong I'll come back and edit this out.
are you REALLY proposing banning people who put the effort to translate interviews for the non-korean speaking community?
seriously?
BUT HE SPOILER zomfg!!!!one!!1!oneonne
Seriously, I will never get why people get so worked up over "spoilers". If you really want to not know because you're a giant nerdpants then just stay off the net. Seriously,
I'm watching the GOM special match now, but before I know who won, I'm going to request a ban to the person who made the thread "[translation] Bisu interview" if Bisu won. I realize there's a tiny tiny possibility it could be about something else or about him losing, but based on the fact that koreans don't care about ELO, I'm 99% certain he won based solely on that thread title and its timing. There's always a "[translation] League winner interview" thread the day after a big game, not so much for the loser. I'm watching the games now, but with a preconceived notion of what will happen. If I'm wrong I'll come back and edit this out.
are you REALLY proposing banning people who put the effort to translate interviews for the non-korean speaking community?
seriously?
BUT HE SPOILER zomfg!!!!one!!1!oneonne
Seriously, I will never get why people get so worked up over "spoilers". If you really want to not know because you're a giant nerdpants then just stay off the net. Seriously, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzlQtq_XNd8&feature=related
How the fuck am I to watch starcraft while staying off the internet?
On March 02 2009 10:21 Yurebis wrote: I understand most of the whining against badmouthing progamers, but in my opinion it should not be a bannable offense. It should only be looked down upon the community, but not made "illegal".
In my ideal world, there would be no need to restrict free speech, as it can never do more harm than the act of regulating it could.
I respect the decisions made by the staff however, and despite not agreeing with it in principle, I know that in practice it will raise the general quality of the forum. Kids will think twice before posting any inflammatory remarks.
This has absolutely nothing to do with free speech or the restriction of it.
For people who cannot watch a stream (for whatever reason) and just want to follow the game it is just useless clutter. It has not benefit whatsoever. In fact it is very annoying and actually detrimental to the flow of the thread and the forum as a whole, which is why it certainly does not have to be tolerated. It's just like spam, are you going to tell me that spam should be allowed because regulating it restricts free speech? Would you stand in my drive-way, say STUPID FAG and claim to be protected by free speech? TL is after all a private forum, so free speech doesn't apply anyway.
I have not challenged TL's rights into banning what it wants, I just felt like giving my viewpoint on it, or in other words, what I would (not) do if I had the word.
On March 02 2009 11:38 likeaboss wrote: I think this is silly you should be encouraging competitive rivalryness. I think its a little overkill and someone just got butthurt and made this
do you think we're a bunch of fucking children or something
On March 02 2009 12:31 Manifesto7 wrote:How the fuck am I to watch starcraft while staying off the internet?
Pardon me for not taking the careful time to detail a great length the means to watch SC while avoiding nasty spoilers... uh... because I assumed people would assume "net" to mean "places on the net you're likely to find..."
Like the example that they stated about the Bisu interview. OK, so Bisu was interviewed - so? He's interviewed often; there's no law saying you have to assume it relates to tournament A, B, or C. Likely the chump clicked on the "interview" and "zomfg SPOILERS IN MY TLs OH NOES!" Pretty simple solution, if there's something you really don't want soiled stay off community sites and watch the damn thing in peace. It doesn't take a brain trust to know you're likely to bump into spoilers on community sites. More importantly, most people in the know enough to be on TL know how to get VODs sans TL to see their matches.
Of course my views are entirely my own as I don't have any issues with spoilers as the result isn't remotely as interesting as how the result was arrived at.
On March 01 2009 18:00 Plexa wrote: Calling progamers "fags", "homos", "pieces of shit", "fucking double cheesing fag" and the like are completely unacceptable. Maintain respectful towards progamers even if your favorite progamer just got cheesed into oblivion. Failure to do adhere will result in a ban.
On March 02 2009 12:31 Manifesto7 wrote:How the fuck am I to watch starcraft while staying off the internet?
Pardon me for not taking the careful time to detail a great length the means to watch SC while avoiding nasty spoilers... uh... because I assumed people would assume "net" to mean "places on the net you're likely to find..."
Like the example that they stated about the Bisu interview. OK, so Bisu was interviewed - so? He's interviewed often; there's no law saying you have to assume it relates to tournament A, B, or C. Likely the chump clicked on the "interview" and "zomfg SPOILERS IN MY TLs OH NOES!" Pretty simple solution, if there's something you really don't want soiled stay off community sites and watch the damn thing in peace. It doesn't take a brain trust to know you're likely to bump into spoilers on community sites. More importantly, most people in the know enough to be on TL know how to get VODs sans TL to see their matches.
Of course my views are entirely my own as I don't have any issues with spoilers as the result isn't remotely as interesting as how the result was arrived at.
I hate spoilers with a burning passion. If I know the result of the game it ruins half the point of me watching it. I'm not as excited about anything, because I already know that it's going to work (or not going to work, alternatively). You say that the result isn't as interesting as how it's arrived at; I say that result spoilers can spoil how something is arrived at. If you know the result of a game, and someone goes all-in, then you already know how the result was arrived. It's like the progress bar on a replay/youtube. Also, sometimes there's an asshole who posts a spoiler thread before the VOD's are out. For those of us who hate spoilers (and judging by the amount of views the Small VOD thread gets, it's a lot of people who don't want to get spoiled), the starcraft match is basically ruined.
Spoilers take out the excitement of watching starcraft. How can you cheer for your favorite player if you know that he lost? I don't know if you tend to post spoilers or not, but please don't. You can ruin a match just based on a few words, and depending how much a match is hyped, someone's entire day. Just please don't do it.
I'm watching the GOM special match now, but before I know who won, I'm going to request a ban to the person who made the thread "[translation] Bisu interview" if Bisu won. I realize there's a tiny tiny possibility it could be about something else or about him losing, but based on the fact that koreans don't care about ELO, I'm 99% certain he won based solely on that thread title and its timing. There's always a "[translation] League winner interview" thread the day after a big game, not so much for the loser. I'm watching the games now, but with a preconceived notion of what will happen. If I'm wrong I'll come back and edit this out.
are you REALLY proposing banning people who put the effort to translate interviews for the non-korean speaking community?
seriously?
If they ruin the outcome of a big game, yes. Why would it matter who it is? It seems unfair that people only get banned when they ruin games for a mod, and not for everyone else. If you can't watch the MSL finals and you see a thread the next morning titled "XellOs Interview," you can't tell me you wouldn't be pissed at whoever made it if XellOs was the winner (or even if he lost because you'd watch the games with an expectation). Just because someone contributes to the site doesn't make him immune to the rules.
I had the GOM Finals ruined by the title of a thread, and I don't think anyone was banned. It was either because the mods had already watched the games, are inconsistent in banning for spoiling games, or changed their policy on it. I know for GOM games, I could stay away from the site until I watch the games, but for MSL, OSL, and proleague, I have to come to the site to get the VODs.
For coincidentally untimely threads that may appear to ruin a series but are unrelated, the OP should be PMed telling him to be more cautious to title the thread more specifically, and perhaps a mod can change the title to clarify things (e.g. the date or topic of the interview or something).
Put a piece of paper on the left side of your computer, ez solution. Same with those going, "hide the replay bar". Except the paper (ideally note card) goes in the bottom right.
On March 02 2009 14:04 Avidkeystamper wrote: Put a piece of paper on the left side of your computer, ez solution. Same with those going, "hide the replay bar". Except the paper (ideally note card) goes in the bottom right.
orr just don't care about it and enjoy the game for wat that game has to offer
I'm watching the GOM special match now, but before I know who won, I'm going to request a ban to the person who made the thread "[translation] Bisu interview" if Bisu won. I realize there's a tiny tiny possibility it could be about something else or about him losing, but based on the fact that koreans don't care about ELO, I'm 99% certain he won based solely on that thread title and its timing. There's always a "[translation] League winner interview" thread the day after a big game, not so much for the loser. I'm watching the games now, but with a preconceived notion of what will happen. If I'm wrong I'll come back and edit this out.
are you REALLY proposing banning people who put the effort to translate interviews for the non-korean speaking community?
seriously?
If they ruin the outcome of a big game, yes. Why would it matter who it is? It seems unfair that people only get banned when they ruin games for a mod, and not for everyone else. If you can't watch the MSL finals and you see a thread the next morning titled "XellOs Interview," you can't tell me you wouldn't be pissed at whoever made it if XellOs was the winner (or even if he lost because you'd watch the games with an expectation). Just because someone contributes to the site doesn't make him immune to the rules.
I had the GOM Finals ruined by the title of a thread, and I don't think anyone was banned. It was either because the mods had already watched the games, are inconsistent in banning for spoiling games, or changed their policy on it. I know for GOM games, I could stay away from the site until I watch the games, but for MSL, OSL, and proleague, I have to come to the site to get the VODs.
For coincidentally untimely threads that may appear to ruin a series but are unrelated, the OP should be PMed telling him to be more cautious to title the thread more specifically, and perhaps a mod can change the title to clarify things (e.g. the date or topic of the interview or something).
We don't ban new people who are translating interviews, dude. That's fucking STUPID.
When a moderator sees it they will change the thread title and send the poster a PM for future reference, but if someone takes the time to translate an interview and post it here for us, we are NOT going to fucking ban them over something like that.
Get your head out of your ass, these people are certainly contributing far more than you are.
I'm watching the GOM special match now, but before I know who won, I'm going to request a ban to the person who made the thread "[translation] Bisu interview" if Bisu won. I realize there's a tiny tiny possibility it could be about something else or about him losing, but based on the fact that koreans don't care about ELO, I'm 99% certain he won based solely on that thread title and its timing. There's always a "[translation] League winner interview" thread the day after a big game, not so much for the loser. I'm watching the games now, but with a preconceived notion of what will happen. If I'm wrong I'll come back and edit this out.
are you REALLY proposing banning people who put the effort to translate interviews for the non-korean speaking community?
seriously?
If they ruin the outcome of a big game, yes. Why would it matter who it is? It seems unfair that people only get banned when they ruin games for a mod, and not for everyone else. If you can't watch the MSL finals and you see a thread the next morning titled "XellOs Interview," you can't tell me you wouldn't be pissed at whoever made it if XellOs was the winner (or even if he lost because you'd watch the games with an expectation). Just because someone contributes to the site doesn't make him immune to the rules.
I had the GOM Finals ruined by the title of a thread, and I don't think anyone was banned. It was either because the mods had already watched the games, are inconsistent in banning for spoiling games, or changed their policy on it. I know for GOM games, I could stay away from the site until I watch the games, but for MSL, OSL, and proleague, I have to come to the site to get the VODs.
For coincidentally untimely threads that may appear to ruin a series but are unrelated, the OP should be PMed telling him to be more cautious to title the thread more specifically, and perhaps a mod can change the title to clarify things (e.g. the date or topic of the interview or something).
We don't ban new people who are translating interviews, dude. That's fucking STUPID.
When a moderator sees it they will change the thread title and send the poster a PM for future reference, but if someone takes the time to translate an interview and post it here for us, we are NOT going to fucking ban them over something like that.
Get your head out of your ass, these people are certainly contributing far more than you are.
So if I translate the post-OSL Finals interview first, I can ruin the outcome?
You are saying that people who contribute more than others are not bound by the rules. If that is the case, the Commandments should be changed to say that. I was under the impression that the rules applied to everyone.
EDIT: And I don't see how calling me stupid, swearing at me, and telling me to get my head out of my ass is necessary.
I'm watching the GOM special match now, but before I know who won, I'm going to request a ban to the person who made the thread "[translation] Bisu interview" if Bisu won. I realize there's a tiny tiny possibility it could be about something else or about him losing, but based on the fact that koreans don't care about ELO, I'm 99% certain he won based solely on that thread title and its timing. There's always a "[translation] League winner interview" thread the day after a big game, not so much for the loser. I'm watching the games now, but with a preconceived notion of what will happen. If I'm wrong I'll come back and edit this out.
are you REALLY proposing banning people who put the effort to translate interviews for the non-korean speaking community?
seriously?
If they ruin the outcome of a big game, yes. Why would it matter who it is? It seems unfair that people only get banned when they ruin games for a mod, and not for everyone else. If you can't watch the MSL finals and you see a thread the next morning titled "XellOs Interview," you can't tell me you wouldn't be pissed at whoever made it if XellOs was the winner (or even if he lost because you'd watch the games with an expectation). Just because someone contributes to the site doesn't make him immune to the rules.
I had the GOM Finals ruined by the title of a thread, and I don't think anyone was banned. It was either because the mods had already watched the games, are inconsistent in banning for spoiling games, or changed their policy on it. I know for GOM games, I could stay away from the site until I watch the games, but for MSL, OSL, and proleague, I have to come to the site to get the VODs.
For coincidentally untimely threads that may appear to ruin a series but are unrelated, the OP should be PMed telling him to be more cautious to title the thread more specifically, and perhaps a mod can change the title to clarify things (e.g. the date or topic of the interview or something).
We don't ban new people who are translating interviews, dude. That's fucking STUPID.
When a moderator sees it they will change the thread title and send the poster a PM for future reference, but if someone takes the time to translate an interview and post it here for us, we are NOT going to fucking ban them over something like that.
Get your head out of your ass, these people are certainly contributing far more than you are.
So if I translate the post-OSL Finals interview first, I can ruin the outcome?
You are saying that people who contribute more than others are not bound by the rules. If that is the case, the Commandments should be changed to say that. I was under the impression that the rules applied to everyone.
EDIT: And I don't see how calling me stupid, swearing at me, and telling me to get my head out of my ass is necessary.
no, he is saying that a new member accidently makes a mistake while contributing and expresses regret for doing so then the staff will mop up the mistake and inform the person how to prevent it in future.
if you knowingly do something disruptive to the community because you cant see the difference or to make a point then your head is up your ass and you will be banned for it. stupid.
On March 02 2009 15:18 Ilvy wrote: Watch the game before you surv TL if you have that hughe problem with. I don´t care to know who won if it was a good game.
If that is the policy, that is fine, but it seemed to me that spoiling games (especially finals, special matches) was a bannable offense. If it was, I was suggesting more consistency in its enforcement - I see many people in the banned list for spoiling, but the note always says they spoiled the game for a mod. If it wasn't, I'm suggesting it should be bannable.
I do not understand why people get irate over someone having a differing opinion than them. You can disagree with someone, even strongly disagree, in a civil manner. I made a suggestion regarding a hypothetical situation. If all the mods disagree with me that's fine, but I feel at least a little clarification regarding some rules such as this one would help with understanding and consistency, and make the site better for everyone.
So should I bookmark the VOD page and not browse any other sections if I'm not up to date on a game I plan to watch?
I'm watching the GOM special match now, but before I know who won, I'm going to request a ban to the person who made the thread "[translation] Bisu interview" if Bisu won. I realize there's a tiny tiny possibility it could be about something else or about him losing, but based on the fact that koreans don't care about ELO, I'm 99% certain he won based solely on that thread title and its timing. There's always a "[translation] League winner interview" thread the day after a big game, not so much for the loser. I'm watching the games now, but with a preconceived notion of what will happen. If I'm wrong I'll come back and edit this out.
are you REALLY proposing banning people who put the effort to translate interviews for the non-korean speaking community?
seriously?
If they ruin the outcome of a big game, yes. Why would it matter who it is? It seems unfair that people only get banned when they ruin games for a mod, and not for everyone else. If you can't watch the MSL finals and you see a thread the next morning titled "XellOs Interview," you can't tell me you wouldn't be pissed at whoever made it if XellOs was the winner (or even if he lost because you'd watch the games with an expectation). Just because someone contributes to the site doesn't make him immune to the rules.
I had the GOM Finals ruined by the title of a thread, and I don't think anyone was banned. It was either because the mods had already watched the games, are inconsistent in banning for spoiling games, or changed their policy on it. I know for GOM games, I could stay away from the site until I watch the games, but for MSL, OSL, and proleague, I have to come to the site to get the VODs.
For coincidentally untimely threads that may appear to ruin a series but are unrelated, the OP should be PMed telling him to be more cautious to title the thread more specifically, and perhaps a mod can change the title to clarify things (e.g. the date or topic of the interview or something).
We don't ban new people who are translating interviews, dude. That's fucking STUPID.
When a moderator sees it they will change the thread title and send the poster a PM for future reference, but if someone takes the time to translate an interview and post it here for us, we are NOT going to fucking ban them over something like that.
Get your head out of your ass, these people are certainly contributing far more than you are.
So if I translate the post-OSL Finals interview first, I can ruin the outcome?
You are saying that people who contribute more than others are not bound by the rules. If that is the case, the Commandments should be changed to say that. I was under the impression that the rules applied to everyone.
EDIT: And I don't see how calling me stupid, swearing at me, and telling me to get my head out of my ass is necessary.
no, he is saying that a new member accidently makes a mistake while contributing and expresses regret for doing so then the staff will mop up the mistake and inform the person how to prevent it in future.
if you knowingly do something disruptive to the community because you cant see the difference or to make a point then your head is up your ass and you will be banned for it. stupid.
I never said anything about it being a new person. Perhaps that is confusing you guys.
On March 02 2009 15:37 Avidkeystamper wrote: You really don't want to stick a piece of paper to the left side of your computer, do you?
I asked for clarification on the matter of spoilers. I did not address your suggestion.
forum cleanse 2009..!! hate to say i am bashful to some progamers sometime but I can't stand the sore winner post-game smack talk. "Cry more" "QQ" please take that shit else where.
I'm watching the GOM special match now, but before I know who won, I'm going to request a ban to the person who made the thread "[translation] Bisu interview" if Bisu won. I realize there's a tiny tiny possibility it could be about something else or about him losing, but based on the fact that koreans don't care about ELO, I'm 99% certain he won based solely on that thread title and its timing. There's always a "[translation] League winner interview" thread the day after a big game, not so much for the loser. I'm watching the games now, but with a preconceived notion of what will happen. If I'm wrong I'll come back and edit this out.
are you REALLY proposing banning people who put the effort to translate interviews for the non-korean speaking community?
seriously?
If they ruin the outcome of a big game, yes. Why would it matter who it is? It seems unfair that people only get banned when they ruin games for a mod, and not for everyone else. If you can't watch the MSL finals and you see a thread the next morning titled "XellOs Interview," you can't tell me you wouldn't be pissed at whoever made it if XellOs was the winner (or even if he lost because you'd watch the games with an expectation). Just because someone contributes to the site doesn't make him immune to the rules.
I had the GOM Finals ruined by the title of a thread, and I don't think anyone was banned. It was either because the mods had already watched the games, are inconsistent in banning for spoiling games, or changed their policy on it. I know for GOM games, I could stay away from the site until I watch the games, but for MSL, OSL, and proleague, I have to come to the site to get the VODs.
For coincidentally untimely threads that may appear to ruin a series but are unrelated, the OP should be PMed telling him to be more cautious to title the thread more specifically, and perhaps a mod can change the title to clarify things (e.g. the date or topic of the interview or something).
We don't ban new people who are translating interviews, dude. That's fucking STUPID.
When a moderator sees it they will change the thread title and send the poster a PM for future reference, but if someone takes the time to translate an interview and post it here for us, we are NOT going to fucking ban them over something like that.
Get your head out of your ass, these people are certainly contributing far more than you are.
So if I translate the post-OSL Finals interview first, I can ruin the outcome?
You are saying that people who contribute more than others are not bound by the rules. If that is the case, the Commandments should be changed to say that. I was under the impression that the rules applied to everyone.
EDIT: And I don't see how calling me stupid, swearing at me, and telling me to get my head out of my ass is necessary.
no, he is saying that a new member accidently makes a mistake while contributing and expresses regret for doing so then the staff will mop up the mistake and inform the person how to prevent it in future.
if you knowingly do something disruptive to the community because you cant see the difference or to make a point then your head is up your ass and you will be banned for it. stupid.
I never said anything about it being a new person. Perhaps that is confusing you guys.
On March 02 2009 15:37 Avidkeystamper wrote: You really don't want to stick a piece of paper to the left side of your computer, do you?
I asked for clarification on the matter of spoilers. I did not address your suggestion.
On March 02 2009 15:35 LonelyMargarita wrote:
So should I bookmark the VOD page and not browse any other sections if I'm not up to date on a game I plan to watch?
Yea, you ignored my suggestion, specifically, what am I supposed to do? However, the main point here is that the staff are unable to determine whether people who spoil interviews do it on purpose or without malicious intent, so no suitable action can be taken.
Fully support cleaning up of LR threads. Nothing is more pointless and stupid than a LR thread that gets derailed by a huge flame war, especially when you're trying to actually figure out what's going on in the game.
Re: spoilers, I think mods are generally pretty good about dealing with them. People who post spoilers usually get told not to do it in the future, and possibly banned for a couple days, and mods change the title of the thread. Since people who spoil, unlike people who post garbage, don't usually do it again, bans are not a very effective way of preventing them.
And yeah, there's this one site where you can watch gomtv games without getting spoiled: http://gomtv.net.
So should I bookmark the VOD page and not browse any other sections if I'm not up to date on a game I plan to watch?
Yes. Mods do their best when dealing with spoilers. It has nothing to do with whether it affects us or not. I can assure you I have had more games spoiled for me because of having to moderate and protect regular posters than you have simply by browsing. In the end though, we cannot idiot-proof everything 100%.
People insult you because you come off like a prick in your posts, insinuating that there is a self-serving mod bias. The rules are quite simple. Anybody who spoils maliciously is banned. People who do it unintentionally, while also giving back to the community are not. How is this hard to understand?
You know what is also a bannable offense? Signing up for a TL event (cough, racewars, cough) and not showing up. I didn't ban you though, because I thought you might accuse me of getting back at you for your bm in our games.
In future, don't be inflammatory with your opinions, and people won't think you are stupid.
I'm watching the GOM special match now, but before I know who won, I'm going to request a ban to the person who made the thread "[translation] Bisu interview" if Bisu won. I realize there's a tiny tiny possibility it could be about something else or about him losing, but based on the fact that koreans don't care about ELO, I'm 99% certain he won based solely on that thread title and its timing. There's always a "[translation] League winner interview" thread the day after a big game, not so much for the loser. I'm watching the games now, but with a preconceived notion of what will happen. If I'm wrong I'll come back and edit this out.
are you REALLY proposing banning people who put the effort to translate interviews for the non-korean speaking community?
seriously?
If they ruin the outcome of a big game, yes. Why would it matter who it is? It seems unfair that people only get banned when they ruin games for a mod, and not for everyone else. If you can't watch the MSL finals and you see a thread the next morning titled "XellOs Interview," you can't tell me you wouldn't be pissed at whoever made it if XellOs was the winner (or even if he lost because you'd watch the games with an expectation). Just because someone contributes to the site doesn't make him immune to the rules.
I had the GOM Finals ruined by the title of a thread, and I don't think anyone was banned. It was either because the mods had already watched the games, are inconsistent in banning for spoiling games, or changed their policy on it. I know for GOM games, I could stay away from the site until I watch the games, but for MSL, OSL, and proleague, I have to come to the site to get the VODs.
For coincidentally untimely threads that may appear to ruin a series but are unrelated, the OP should be PMed telling him to be more cautious to title the thread more specifically, and perhaps a mod can change the title to clarify things (e.g. the date or topic of the interview or something).
We don't ban new people who are translating interviews, dude. That's fucking STUPID.
When a moderator sees it they will change the thread title and send the poster a PM for future reference, but if someone takes the time to translate an interview and post it here for us, we are NOT going to fucking ban them over something like that.
Get your head out of your ass, these people are certainly contributing far more than you are.
So if I translate the post-OSL Finals interview first, I can ruin the outcome?
You are saying that people who contribute more than others are not bound by the rules. If that is the case, the Commandments should be changed to say that. I was under the impression that the rules applied to everyone.
EDIT: And I don't see how calling me stupid, swearing at me, and telling me to get my head out of my ass is necessary.
new people who are therefore unfamiliar with the rules
we have a lot of new members sign up and translate stuff for us, and if they're spoiling results its handled between a moderator and that person, and it never turns into a problem
your suggestion that we just up and ban someone who spoils a result in an interview thread title is fucking asinine because it's isolated incidents with new posters who are therefore unfamiliar with the rules
so, get your head out of your ass, you cretin. highfive to my homeboy benjammin.
I really appreciate this new rule. The only bad thing of Teamliquid.net was the constant childish flaming and the permanently use of bad street language. Hopefully the staff will be strict with this rule.
Flaming is unprofessionell, flaming is no fun, flaming is simply stupid and for those who dont think so: NO, flaming is not a penis compensation.
On March 02 2009 20:16 HanN00b wrote: I really appreciate this new rule. The only bad thing of Teamliquid.net was the constant childish flaming and the permanently use of bad street language. Hopefully the staff will be strict with this rule.
Flaming is unprofessionell, flaming is no fun, flaming is simply stupid and for those who dont think so: NO, flaming is not a penis compensation.
i dont like the ban thing about protoss jokes. i mean its just a game and not a forum about serious things . Not that i particulary like protoss jokes but site is located in usa and most of us are from democratic countries so wheres the freedom of speech and things like this?
On March 02 2009 21:29 axel wrote: but site is located in usa and most of us are from democratic countries so wheres the freedom of speech and things like this?
The administration owns the site, and thus can do what they choose on it. Their property, their rules. Even if the internet was somehow covered by free speech, FakeSteve could still ban you since Singapore doesn't have those laws.
On March 02 2009 21:29 axel wrote: i dont like the ban thing about protoss jokes. i mean its just a game and not a forum about serious things . Not that i particulary like protoss jokes but site is located in usa and most of us are from democratic countries so wheres the freedom of speech and things like this?
Repeated use of overused "jokes" to mass produce thoughtless posts with a sole intent for flaming and inciting other members is a contradiction to the encouraged quality posting required for proper discussion.
On March 02 2009 21:29 axel wrote: but site is located in usa and most of us are from democratic countries so wheres the freedom of speech and things like this?
Really? So I'm from the US, its a democratic country. Does that mean I can run into the White House in Washington DC and say "fuck you" to the president? Or spray paint shit on Lincoln's memorial? It's free speech right?
On top of that, rules are rules, obey them or leave. This is a private site also, which in turn makes the whole "freedom of speech" issue non-existent.
On March 02 2009 21:29 axel wrote: but site is located in usa and most of us are from democratic countries so wheres the freedom of speech and things like this?
Really? So I'm from the US, its a democratic country. Does that mean I can run into the White House in Washington DC and say "fuck you" to the president? Or spray paint shit on Lincoln's memorial? It's free speech right?
On top of that, rules are rules, obey them or leave. This is a private site also, which in turn makes the whole "freedom of speech" issue non-existent.
Hey democraty does not mean anarchy and yes in france u can say fuck you to the president and he can answer this too ( it already happened). whatever i just think its a bit too harsh; end of discussion.
On March 02 2009 21:29 axel wrote: but site is located in usa and most of us are from democratic countries so wheres the freedom of speech and things like this?
The administration owns the site, and thus can do what they choose on it. Their property, their rules. Even if the internet was somehow covered by free speech, FakeSteve could still ban you since Singapore doesn't have those laws.
Why the fuck do people need to argue about what Plexa stated in the opening post. Teamliquid has rules which makes the site better for all of the people using it. You don't have fun anymore without flaming and spoiling others? Ok fine, then leave and "contribute" somewhere else..
On March 02 2009 21:29 axel wrote: but site is located in usa and most of us are from democratic countries so wheres the freedom of speech and things like this?
Really? So I'm from the US, its a democratic country. Does that mean I can run into the White House in Washington DC and say "fuck you" to the president? Or spray paint shit on Lincoln's memorial? It's free speech right?
On top of that, rules are rules, obey them or leave. This is a private site also, which in turn makes the whole "freedom of speech" issue non-existent.
you certainly do have the right to swear at the president, but the actual act of running into the white house would be trespassing. spray painting lincoln's memorial isn't free speech... that's called vandalism. i'm not agreeing with axel... it's just a pet peeve of mine when people argue points with examples that are wrong. this is indeed a private site, so the moderators can make and enforce any rules which they seem fit.
On March 01 2009 22:36 miseiler wrote: I disagree with the 1a2a3a joke ban.
I don't make them myself, but as someone said earlier this is part of our broodwar culture. It's a meme.
I just don't understand why it bothers people so much.
It contributes nothing. It falls under "doesn't add to the discussion". It's a shallow opinion. The only good shallow opinions are for cheering, like "Bisu is awesome!!"
If someone watches a protoss game and feels like the protoss won easily when he shouldn't have, then that person can start a meaningful post game discussion about it. If they don't care enough about it to do so, or they're incapable, then they aren't permitted to simply recite a meme instead.
TL staff are a bunch of mutherfuckers lovers of protoss and bisu, Die gays!!! 1a2a3a, bisu is gay, protoss is the easier race, protoss imba. and all my hate to Tl staff protoss lovers, gousgamers is better than this. FUCK YOU ALL
On March 01 2009 22:36 miseiler wrote: I disagree with the 1a2a3a joke ban.
I don't make them myself, but as someone said earlier this is part of our broodwar culture. It's a meme.
I just don't understand why it bothers people so much.
It contributes nothing. It falls under "doesn't add to the discussion". It's a shallow opinion. The only good shallow opinions are for cheering, like "Bisu is awesome!!"
If someone watches a protoss game and feels like the protoss won easily when he shouldn't have, then that person can start a meaningful post game discussion about it. If they don't care enough about it to do so, or they're incapable, then they aren't permitted to simply recite a meme instead.
TL staff are a bunch of mutherfuckers lovers of protoss and bisu, Die gays!!! 1a2a3a, bisu is gay, protoss is the easier race, protoss imba. and all my hate to Tl staff protoss lovers, gousgamers is better than this. FUCK YOU ALL
On March 01 2009 22:36 miseiler wrote: I disagree with the 1a2a3a joke ban.
I don't make them myself, but as someone said earlier this is part of our broodwar culture. It's a meme.
I just don't understand why it bothers people so much.
It contributes nothing. It falls under "doesn't add to the discussion". It's a shallow opinion. The only good shallow opinions are for cheering, like "Bisu is awesome!!"
If someone watches a protoss game and feels like the protoss won easily when he shouldn't have, then that person can start a meaningful post game discussion about it. If they don't care enough about it to do so, or they're incapable, then they aren't permitted to simply recite a meme instead.
TL staff are a bunch of mutherfuckers lovers of protoss and bisu, Die gays!!! 1a2a3a, bisu is gay, protoss is the easier race, protoss imba. and all my hate to Tl staff protoss lovers, gousgamers is better than this. FUCK YOU ALL
hahahaha saying that to nony haha i hope I don't get banned for this, so I should add more content for this post
overall, I like these new rules. Let's get rid off the retards.
On March 01 2009 22:36 miseiler wrote: I disagree with the 1a2a3a joke ban.
I don't make them myself, but as someone said earlier this is part of our broodwar culture. It's a meme.
I just don't understand why it bothers people so much.
It contributes nothing. It falls under "doesn't add to the discussion". It's a shallow opinion. The only good shallow opinions are for cheering, like "Bisu is awesome!!"
If someone watches a protoss game and feels like the protoss won easily when he shouldn't have, then that person can start a meaningful post game discussion about it. If they don't care enough about it to do so, or they're incapable, then they aren't permitted to simply recite a meme instead.
TL staff are a bunch of mutherfuckers lovers of protoss and bisu, Die gays!!! 1a2a3a, bisu is gay, protoss is the easier race, protoss imba. and all my hate to Tl staff protoss lovers, gousgamers is better than this. FUCK YOU ALL
whether or not its the right thing to do, tl.net is the mod's house and not ours so if they want to ban certain things (like i said whether its morale to or not), they can. they have that right so theres no point bitching about it
that being said i agree with plexa here and im sick of some of the bullshit in threads, especially all the people putting down free recently. but maybe for the kwanroll stuff there can be a set period when its tolerable (like before the match starts and never during a match), i think kwanroll is pretty funny but i say get rid of all the 1a2a3a bullshit altogether
On March 03 2009 11:34 Qwertify wrote: So is "KWAAAAAAAAANNRROOOOOOOOOLLLL" banned too? If it is.. ..oh man.
In general, one liners are frowned upon, and I guess since they're going to tighten down on live report threads, you should probably keep your nose clean ^_^. I guess I don't care in particular if you listen to me or not though.
On March 02 2009 10:59 MorningMusume11 wrote: If you guys ban me for what I said that's totally acceptable. I'm not complaining you guys should set some example anyways.
Am I sorry? Of course. I still hate Free over that bs last night. Do what you gotta do, anyways that was my 2nd warning when it came to LR stuff
Read what you just said. You need a reality check if you hate a player for winning or losing a match. Really, you HATE some guy because of how they played a game? Plus Free is a guy who always seems to have a good attitude even when he loses. Half the time he loses he has a big grin on his face because he knew he had it coming lol. He is a good sport. And you?
Man, the spoiler discussion does wonders for my ego - through this I know I will never be the biggest nerd on the interwebs. Maybe top 5, but never #1.
On March 03 2009 15:38 sk` wrote: Man, the spoiler discussion does wonders for my ego - through this I know I will never be the biggest nerd on the interwebs. Maybe top 5, but never #1.
On March 03 2009 15:38 sk` wrote: Man, the spoiler discussion does wonders for my ego - through this I know I will never be the biggest nerd on the interwebs. Maybe top 5, but never #1.
I think a lot of people's questions here can be answered by a simple application of common sense. I'm not a moderator and I hope it doesn't look like I am pretending to be - if so I apologise, I'm trying to make this a "spectator" opinion of sorts.
"Free Speech". even if It applied - and it does not since this website is private property, much of the spamming "FUCK XYZ PLAYER IN THE ASS THE WORTHLESS 1a2a CUNT" is having a negative and disruptive effect on the thread for other people. From my perspective, it's very difficult to follow the good trains of thought, the accurate lr's, the analysis - when there's a lot of the above going on. It ruins my focus and when people go so far as to attack contributive posts, it makes it even worse - side bickering just detracts from the thread's atmosphere. All it takes is one or two people stuffing up a thread for it to dissolve into fights/bickering/etecetera, and if you want to demand the right to free speech then you also better be prepared to accept some responsibility alongside that - that you post in a mature manner which doesn't screw up an LR thread for everyone else.
Likewise, one liners. While people look down on these I severly doubt anyone is going to snap a ban or warning on someone who uses them sparingly and thus appropriately. If Kwanro pulls off an allkill or a clutch win and you want to shout Kwanrolled - then that's understandable. If you've been contributing to the LR thread actively, are a good poster and try and make sure every second post isn't that type of "contribution", nobody will begrudge you when you have a little fanboy/wild moment in the heat of the thread, (well, within reason). Starcraft has emotional fans and there's nothing wrong with being emotional, ther'es everything wrong with grossly overdoing it and dissolving a thread into worthless spammy posts and/or fucking up the atmosphere of the thread. It's when people keep posting the same crap over and over and over with little other attempt to contribute that a thread goes downhill, or you go too far and detract from the expierience of everyone else.
"gg" posts. Only post these if the game is over - if your Stream is further ahead, say so. That way there is no confusion. Once again, people get passionate about the game and nothing can really screw up a spectator's excited mood than to get told a game is finished, search for the result - and in doing so miss some action which may even bring about a different result.
What I don't understand is: if it is a problem to post comments about professional players being "gay" for "fags", then why isn't it a problem when Team Liquid publishes an entire article (the recent "Racewars" article) where that sort of vocabulary is regularly used.
For example, Plexa writes:
"...decimated by 2 Dragoons and a probe drill - pure Protoss gayness."
"Not one to let up on the Terran gayness, Dead9 proceeded to harass with a single vulture doing more damage than one would expect of a single vulture."
I think homophobic vocabulary equating "gay" to "lame" is completely unnecessary, but hey, I don't expect our moderators to be all-seeing watchdogs. But it is pretty hypocritical to publish articles with that vocabulary and then tell us users not to use the same vocabulary in the forums.
There's a vast difference between using that vernacular (which isn't homophobic in the slightest around here, if Mora isn't offended why on earth should you be) in a huge, well-written newspost and posting a one-line post about how Bisu is a fag
If it's vernacular, then it's vernacular. Let's use it wherever. "Bisu is lame. Bisu is gay. Bisu is a fag. Bisu sucks." These comments ought to be equal if it's the vernacular.
Of course, I don't think that the above is right at all, nor am I trying to start a gay-rights campaign in the Team Liquid forums--I understand how the cookie crumbles on the internet. I am just trying to say that if you don't want us calling professional Starcraft players gay, then don't call them gay in your own articles.
I hope Bisu will forgive me for using him as an example. Bisu rules.
On March 03 2009 22:28 elpriceisright wrote: If it's vernacular, then it's vernacular. Let's use it wherever. "Bisu is lame. Bisu is gay. Bisu is a fag. Bisu sucks." These comments ought to be equal if it's the vernacular.
Of course, I don't think that the above is right at all, nor am I trying to start a gay-rights campaign in the Team Liquid forums--I understand how the cookie crumbles on the internet. I am just trying to say that if you don't want us calling professional Starcraft players gay, then don't call them gay in your own articles.
I hope Bisu will forgive me for using him as an example. Bisu rules.
You're focusing way too much on the word itself, that isn't the issue here. The issue is negative, trash one-liners that serve no purpose other than shit-talking a player. The issue is these posts appearing in live report threads, which people who can't watch streams use as a resource. There is no conflict of ideals in the words themselves being used in a newspost by our writing staff. We're not cracking down on the words, we're cracking down on how they've been used lately in those threads.
Also, in the anouncement off racewars foul mouthing races that aren't yours was encouraged along with claiming own-race supremacy. When Plexa mentioned pure protoss gayness I raised an eyebrow but when I remembered this it did fit the context. I thinnk you'd be better off scrounging actual news posts on serious event for foulmouthing by the staff but I don't think you'll find much there.
Although i'm not surprised, I am pleasantly pleased. I usually read the live report threads while i'm at work to catch up on what happened inside the games and the amount of stupidity some threads get is rather astounding.
There's so many cringe posts I read that if I had been a moderator, I would have just banned them on the spot. But seeing this thread and recently reading through the humorous ban thread. I have noticed that a lot of posts that do make me think this person REALLY should be banned (based off numerous consecutive garbage posts), those same users have been banned for those posts.
It's good to know the moderators are watching. Godspeed TL.net.
P.S. Thanks for banning terrible unfunny jokes, too.
That whole story is a bit " how does it feel be allowed to ban some1 with just a click" , a bit like -some- of my workmate iccup admins. My opinion. Tl net manners have improved A LOT during last year ...i remember when i joined it was endless flaming and juvenile posts about who is wrong or not..So i dont really see the point , even if i agree for the spoiler and flaming pro thing. Still i like to read flamming humouristic comments sometimes when its really funny.. It's like guys looking a football /soccer match ,com on i mean we are not pussy schoolgirls ,are we? Also look on gg.net , i know its 2 differents sites and i like both but they are far from banning this kind of thing and i can say overall i read less flaming / bm comments there than here.
I totally agree a little more respect should be shown to the players. Because they work about 12 hours a day every day and put out their best effort to get shut down in a few minutes.
Comments like "bizuu SUX, lrn to macro" Are written in less than a few seconds, obviously the people don't realize that progamers put so much effort into what they do. A little nettiquette should be enforced.
I think its kind of hard to maintain this forum because of the large number of people many different backgrounds, many nationalities, but you staff people are doing a great job.
I don't watch live reports or post all too often, but I think play by plays should be left alone to the guy assigned to doing it. Makes it less of this junk.
"boxer goes 11 rax "boxer 11rax!" "Boxer is placing his barracks now...I believe its....11." "11 rax gg boxer!"
For about a few pages.
Maybe thats why I like to read the dramatic featured articles more. But anyways, good, glad this place is gettin' classier yeah?
On March 04 2009 01:49 axel wrote: Also look on gg.net , i know its 2 differents sites and i like both but they are far from banning this kind of thing and i can say overall i read less flaming / bm comments there than here.
You're insane. Go read gg.net forums for twenty minutes and tell me they're more constructive than here. There's no way.
On March 04 2009 01:49 axel wrote: Also look on gg.net , i know its 2 differents sites and i like both but they are far from banning this kind of thing and i can say overall i read less flaming / bm comments there than here.
On March 01 2009 22:36 miseiler wrote: I disagree with the 1a2a3a joke ban.
I don't make them myself, but as someone said earlier this is part of our broodwar culture. It's a meme.
I just don't understand why it bothers people so much.
Maybe because it's only funny the first few times. Spamming it and wasting space is just not cool, nor is it funny; it is just plain annoying. I remember the whole "Bisu build" craze... yeah it was funny the first few times, but man, EVERYONE was spamming that when Bisu played. I remember SpiritOfTheTunA spamming that on IRC every protoss game. It's just not funny...
On March 01 2009 22:36 miseiler wrote: I disagree with the 1a2a3a joke ban.
I don't make them myself, but as someone said earlier this is part of our broodwar culture. It's a meme.
I just don't understand why it bothers people so much.
Maybe because it's only funny the first few times. Spamming it and wasting space is just not cool, nor is it funny; it is just plain annoying. I remember the whole "Bisu build" craze... yeah it was funny the first few times, but man, EVERYONE was spamming that when Bisu played. I remember SpiritOfTheTunA spamming that on IRC every protoss game. It's just not funny...
On March 05 2009 14:59 arb wrote: Question : Taking something from Artosis and super Daniel, in any MU(assuming someone is very far ahead) also assuming you contribute aswell is
"All he needs to do is 1a2a3a get out of here" acceptable? not just saying to toss, but terran and zerg aswell
that's totally fine, we're just cracking down on the 'lol protoss imba 1a2a3a no skill' bullshit
On March 05 2009 12:45 Darkmole wrote: o so this rules only affect when a game is on and like people are rooting??
In effect in live report threads at all times. That said, there are always bans handed out for shitty posting, but most of this stuff will slide on the rest of the forum unless your post history is nothing but
I'm really glad this got posted. However, can we extend the "fag" and "gay" rule to all posts? I don't think that these words should ever be used as an insult or to mean something stupid that one disagrees with. Of course it has become part of our vernacular, but I've always seen TL as a fairly progressive place and it would be great to see these words disappear.
On March 05 2009 21:29 pavement ist rad wrote: I'm really glad this got posted. However, can we extend the "fag" and "gay" rule to all posts? I don't think that these words should ever be used as an insult or to mean something stupid that one disagrees with. Of course it has become part of our vernacular, but I've always seen TL as a fairly progressive place and it would be great to see these words disappear.
Nope. That shit really doesn't matter. We have gay forum members, and they don't care, so why on earth do you?
Steve, that same argument can be applied to any racist or sexist slur, its actually a really good argument for banning "fag" and "faggot". It's the same reasoning as banning "nigger" or "chink" or "gook". Simply having black or chinese or korean people who don't mind the word isn't justification for allowing it.
On March 05 2009 21:29 pavement ist rad wrote: I'm really glad this got posted. However, can we extend the "fag" and "gay" rule to all posts? I don't think that these words should ever be used as an insult or to mean something stupid that one disagrees with. Of course it has become part of our vernacular, but I've always seen TL as a fairly progressive place and it would be great to see these words disappear.
Nope. That shit really doesn't matter. We have gay forum members, and they don't care, so why on earth do you?
On March 06 2009 06:53 Hot_Bid wrote: Steve, that same argument can be applied to any racist or sexist slur, its actually a really good argument for banning "fag" and "faggot". It's the same reasoning as banning "nigger" or "chink" or "gook". Simply having black or chinese or korean people who don't mind the word isn't justification for allowing it.
it's not the same at all because 'gay' and 'fag' are acceptable vernacular everywhere
they are two totally different things, you're basically saying a poke in the arm is the same as a punch in the face because theyre both physical contact and if one is allowed all forms should be allowed
it's not unreasonable to expect people to use their heads here. racism stays the fuck off tl, period. 'gay' and 'fag' are completely unrelated, not even in the same ballpark
On March 06 2009 06:53 Hot_Bid wrote: Steve, that same argument can be applied to any racist or sexist slur, its actually a really good argument for banning "fag" and "faggot". It's the same reasoning as banning "nigger" or "chink" or "gook". Simply having black or chinese or korean people who don't mind the word isn't justification for allowing it.
it's not the same at all because 'gay' and 'fag' are acceptable vernacular everywhere
they are two totally different things, you're basically saying a poke in the arm is the same as a punch in the face because theyre both physical contact and if one is allowed all forms should be allowed
it's not unreasonable to expect people to use their heads here. racism stays the fuck off tl, period. 'gay' and 'fag' are completely unrelated, not even in the same ballpark
I'm pretty sure "fag" is considered unacceptable where I'm from, and certainly where I go to school. But then again I'm from the bay area (california) and I go to Oberlin so yeah
What about banning posts that do nothing except fix a grammar error with another post? Or posts that demean another argument by citing grammar mistakes?
On March 06 2009 12:40 Avidkeystamper wrote: What about banning posts that do nothing except fix a grammar error with another post? Or posts that demean another argument by citing grammar mistakes?
well, that has nothing to do with live report threads, but i do tend to send out warnings for that sort of thing
On March 06 2009 06:53 Hot_Bid wrote: Steve, that same argument can be applied to any racist or sexist slur, its actually a really good argument for banning "fag" and "faggot". It's the same reasoning as banning "nigger" or "chink" or "gook". Simply having black or chinese or korean people who don't mind the word isn't justification for allowing it.
it's not the same at all because 'gay' and 'fag' are acceptable vernacular everywhere ... it's not unreasonable to expect people to use their heads here. racism stays the fuck off tl, period. 'gay' and 'fag' are completely unrelated, not even in the same ballpark
I know I'm drifting offtopic here, but that's not true. In the San Francisco Bay area, 'fag' is generally on the same level as a racial slur. I can only remember hearing it spoken once when I was living in the bay area.
I have to agree with CDRdude, :"gay" is fine, but "fag" seems to have a strong negative connotation, similar to that of racial slurs. I go to school in Oklahoma, which was the least liberal state in the last election, and it is definantly unacceptable here.
On March 06 2009 06:53 Hot_Bid wrote: Steve, that same argument can be applied to any racist or sexist slur, its actually a really good argument for banning "fag" and "faggot". It's the same reasoning as banning "nigger" or "chink" or "gook". Simply having black or chinese or korean people who don't mind the word isn't justification for allowing it.
it's not the same at all because 'gay' and 'fag' are acceptable vernacular everywhere
they are two totally different things, you're basically saying a poke in the arm is the same as a punch in the face because theyre both physical contact and if one is allowed all forms should be allowed
it's not unreasonable to expect people to use their heads here. racism stays the fuck off tl, period. 'gay' and 'fag' are completely unrelated, not even in the same ballpark
"fag" is completely in the same ballpark as "nigger" and is nowhere near "acceptable vernacular everywhere". sure i agree with you that "nigger" carries a much heavier connotation of malice because people often use "fag" as an offhand insult, but its far, far from "acceptable vernacular everywhere". just read the responses in this thread, there's no way that "fag" is accepted as plain, everyday, ordinary language (the definition of vernacular, much less accepted vernacular). i can't believe you actually think that.
yeah from now on, i'm issuing warnings and bannings for "fag" and "faggot" and i urge the other Moderators to do the same.
I´m a bit surprised that you allow as much as you do. These rules are from a different forum, which is quite similar (MMA).
"1. Fighter Bashing (including refs, promoters and the like) won't be tolerated. Criticism is fine, flaming, steroid allegations, etc. isn't. Minor bashing such as "so and so sucks, is a can, etc." is a double yellow, while extreme bashing like "so and so is a pile of shit, bitch, ***got, etc." will result in a ban.
2. Postwhoring. Posting "+1," "too long, didn't read," "rickson by armbar," empty quoting, etc., will result in a double yellow card and post count reduction. If it's a number of posts, you will be banned for trolling."
Or maybe I´m just used to those rules and find alot of the posts here offending (mostly in the PBP-threads).
We've come to a time where gay/fag have the same meaning as idiot/retard. Its sad to see but the word themselves isn't that strong anymore. I don't know about the word nigger and such since its not used in Sweden and is alot heavier in USA. But i guess if we give it a few more years, given that it's used alot in hollywood films and such and usually with a harmless meaning because often said from a black man to a black man, it will more and more be accepted as a psynomym for idiot/retard the same way gay/fag has evolved without actually having anything to do with the original word.
This is a logical result to the ever evolving language and there will always be new cursewords as time goes on. However it doesn't make it right even to call someone idiot and it sure isn't nice to do so. So either we go cold turkey and don't allow people to insult eachother or we let the words be allowed but put no greater meaning to them.
In my oppinion you cannot really draw a general line because all the situations are so very different and its not at all unusual that friends call eachother fags or whatever without seriousness.
Hmmmm? Are you saying you're going to ban the use of the word fag even when it is not used maliciously? There was no bad intent behind that post and I received my first warning... for what? Saying a bad word? I assure you the tone wasn't bad. 'lol u fag' - sounds normal. It is very different from 'you're a fucking fag'. which is also different from maybe a fans comment 'that cheese was so faggy T_T' And those could be justified too given the circumstances, and who said it to who. Especially when people think of these words, they honestly don't even associate homosexuality into it. It's just become too common for that.
Wouldn't you have to take a stance against all types of malicious posts in general rather than exclude certain words? Because adding 1 word at a time to an invisible list that posters don't see seems rather retarded. Perhaps retard / retarded are the next words to go.
In all seriousness though, banning words seems silly. If somebody uses gook, nigger, chink, spic, etc... they look stupid and only take away from any posts they may make. Just let people talk the way they would and then hand out bans accordingly. If a racist fag comes along and says something retarded, he's obviously going to get banned. Like honestly, are you going to go through with the warning of a temp ban on me because I just said, "if a racist fag"? Despite there being 0% malicious intent towards homosexuals?
While handing out bans based on words seems like it would simplify the case, it really doesn't. Racist words were created for their sole purpose, to get some anger and make a reaction. Next thing you know you'll want to ban cunt because girls don't like it. Or synonyms for fag. Like queer and ass pirate. Taking a stance against prejudice is fine. But banning words because some people feel icky? Those people, regardless of any persecution they may have faced in their life, need to grow the fuck up.
Seriously, fag really doesn't have the same connotations to it or the strength of more sinister words. It's mostly used lightheartedly.
Anyway, I think you're taking the wrong stance. But if you feel strongly about it, you should at least consider discussing a visible list of words with the other admins that are meant to truly incite shit. If it passes you can make an amendment in the TL commandments or do George Carlin's scary words bit, so that everyone knows. ;p
So basically I'm saying, keep it to a case by case thing. Unless you really feel excluding words will increase the general quality of the site. ;p
On March 06 2009 17:56 MacWorld wrote: I´m a bit surprised that you allow as much as you do. These rules are from a different forum, which is quite similar (MMA).
"1. Fighter Bashing (including refs, promoters and the like) won't be tolerated. Criticism is fine, flaming, steroid allegations, etc. isn't. Minor bashing such as "so and so sucks, is a can, etc." is a double yellow, while extreme bashing like "so and so is a pile of shit, bitch, ***got, etc." will result in a ban.
2. Postwhoring. Posting "+1," "too long, didn't read," "rickson by armbar," empty quoting, etc., will result in a double yellow card and post count reduction. If it's a number of posts, you will be banned for trolling."
Or maybe I´m just used to those rules and find alot of the posts here offending (mostly in the PBP-threads).
People who fall into these categories usually get PM's as warning about their posting. I should know haha.
However, there are cases and cases. As far as I know, subtle flaming has been allowed and is still allowed. In some cases, smart flaming builds up reputation too. Of course, we're talking about flaming with a reason, not just random fail attempts to flame.
Edit: Testie makes a good point, I agree on that :p
Hmmmm? Are you saying you're going to ban the use of the word fag even when it is not used maliciously? There was no bad intent behind that post and I received my first warning... for what? Saying a bad word? I assure you the tone wasn't bad. 'lol u fag' - sounds normal. It is very different from 'you're a fucking fag'. which is also different from maybe a fans comment 'that cheese was so faggy T_T' And those could be justified too given the circumstances, and who said it to who. Especially when people think of these words, they honestly don't even associate homosexuality into it. It's just become too common for that.
Wouldn't you have to take a stance against all types of malicious posts in general rather than exclude certain words? Because adding 1 word at a time to an invisible list that posters don't see seems rather retarded. Perhaps retard / retarded are the next words to go.
In all seriousness though, banning words seems silly. If somebody uses gook, nigger, chink, spic, etc... they look stupid and only take away from any posts they may make. Just let people talk the way they would and then hand out bans accordingly. If a racist fag comes along and says something retarded, he's obviously going to get banned. Like honestly, are you going to go through with the warning of a temp ban on me because I just said, "if a racist fag"? Despite there being 0% malicious intent towards homosexuals?
While handing out bans based on words seems like it would simplify the case, it really doesn't. Racist words were created for their sole purpose, to get some anger and make a reaction. Next thing you know you'll want to ban cunt because girls don't like it. Or synonyms for fag. Like queer and ass pirate. Taking a stance against prejudice is fine. But banning words because some people feel icky? Those people, regardless of any persecution they may have faced in their life, need to grow the fuck up.
Seriously, fag really doesn't have the same connotations to it or the strength of more sinister words. It's mostly used lightheartedly.
Anyway, I think you're taking the wrong stance. But if you feel strongly about it, you should at least consider discussing a visible list of words with the other admins that are meant to truly incite shit. If it passes you can make an amendment in the TL commandments or do George Carlin's scary words bit, so that everyone knows. ;p
So basically I'm saying, keep it to a case by case thing. Unless you really feel excluding words will increase the general quality of the site. ;p
this argument is not winnable by either side. there is LOTS of offense to be taken from being called a fag. I would NEVER use the word lightheartedly. I grew up cursing my brains out. its just second nature. I cannot hold a conversation without saying "Fucking" or some variant. I cannot remember the last time i ever used the words fag or faggot. They are derragatory, plain and simple. I call my best friends assholes like its second nature, never once "fag".
I use to say this and that were gay all the time. I now go to one of the most liberal schools in the country that houses an enormous gay population, so even that has been curbed.
When its in your face its easy to see how your words affect people, and just as easy to overlook when its not. I think this is INCREDIBLY important to think about when choosing your words, in case you are sensitive to offending people.
On March 06 2009 17:56 MacWorld wrote: I´m a bit surprised that you allow as much as you do. These rules are from a different forum, which is quite similar (MMA).
"1. Fighter Bashing (including refs, promoters and the like) won't be tolerated. Criticism is fine, flaming, steroid allegations, etc. isn't. Minor bashing such as "so and so sucks, is a can, etc." is a double yellow, while extreme bashing like "so and so is a pile of shit, bitch, ***got, etc." will result in a ban.
2. Postwhoring. Posting "+1," "too long, didn't read," "rickson by armbar," empty quoting, etc., will result in a double yellow card and post count reduction. If it's a number of posts, you will be banned for trolling."
Or maybe I´m just used to those rules and find alot of the posts here offending (mostly in the PBP-threads).
On March 06 2009 17:56 MacWorld wrote: I´m a bit surprised that you allow as much as you do. These rules are from a different forum, which is quite similar (MMA).
"1. Fighter Bashing (including refs, promoters and the like) won't be tolerated. Criticism is fine, flaming, steroid allegations, etc. isn't. Minor bashing such as "so and so sucks, is a can, etc." is a double yellow, while extreme bashing like "so and so is a pile of shit, bitch, ***got, etc." will result in a ban.
2. Postwhoring. Posting "+1," "too long, didn't read," "rickson by armbar," empty quoting, etc., will result in a double yellow card and post count reduction. If it's a number of posts, you will be banned for trolling."
Or maybe I´m just used to those rules and find alot of the posts here offending (mostly in the PBP-threads).
what the hell is rickson by armbar?
It's a prediction on how the match will turn out, saying that the fighter named rickson will win by using the armbar submission move.. An equivalent post in starcraft would be "Julyzerg by 5pool".
On March 06 2009 17:56 MacWorld wrote: I´m a bit surprised that you allow as much as you do. These rules are from a different forum, which is quite similar (MMA).
"1. Fighter Bashing (including refs, promoters and the like) won't be tolerated. Criticism is fine, flaming, steroid allegations, etc. isn't. Minor bashing such as "so and so sucks, is a can, etc." is a double yellow, while extreme bashing like "so and so is a pile of shit, bitch, ***got, etc." will result in a ban.
2. Postwhoring. Posting "+1," "too long, didn't read," "rickson by armbar," empty quoting, etc., will result in a double yellow card and post count reduction. If it's a number of posts, you will be banned for trolling."
Or maybe I´m just used to those rules and find alot of the posts here offending (mostly in the PBP-threads).
what the hell is rickson by armbar?
It's a prediction on how the match will turn out, saying that the fighter named rickson will win by using the armbar submission move.. An equivalent post in starcraft would be "Julyzerg by 5pool".
Yeah but it doesn´t have to involve the actual players, for instance if Bisu faces Flash - you would go "Julyzerg by 5pool" - the difference is of course that Rickson claimed he had a 400-0 record which I guess Julyzerg hasn´t - so I think it´s a minor problem in sc.
Hmmmm? Are you saying you're going to ban the use of the word fag even when it is not used maliciously? There was no bad intent behind that post and I received my first warning... for what? Saying a bad word? I assure you the tone wasn't bad. 'lol u fag' - sounds normal. It is very different from 'you're a fucking fag'. which is also different from maybe a fans comment 'that cheese was so faggy T_T' And those could be justified too given the circumstances, and who said it to who. Especially when people think of these words, they honestly don't even associate homosexuality into it. It's just become too common for that.
Wouldn't you have to take a stance against all types of malicious posts in general rather than exclude certain words? Because adding 1 word at a time to an invisible list that posters don't see seems rather retarded. Perhaps retard / retarded are the next words to go.
In all seriousness though, banning words seems silly. If somebody uses gook, nigger, chink, spic, etc... they look stupid and only take away from any posts they may make. Just let people talk the way they would and then hand out bans accordingly. If a racist fag comes along and says something retarded, he's obviously going to get banned. Like honestly, are you going to go through with the warning of a temp ban on me because I just said, "if a racist fag"? Despite there being 0% malicious intent towards homosexuals?
While handing out bans based on words seems like it would simplify the case, it really doesn't. Racist words were created for their sole purpose, to get some anger and make a reaction. Next thing you know you'll want to ban cunt because girls don't like it. Or synonyms for fag. Like queer and ass pirate. Taking a stance against prejudice is fine. But banning words because some people feel icky? Those people, regardless of any persecution they may have faced in their life, need to grow the fuck up.
Seriously, fag really doesn't have the same connotations to it or the strength of more sinister words. It's mostly used lightheartedly.
Anyway, I think you're taking the wrong stance. But if you feel strongly about it, you should at least consider discussing a visible list of words with the other admins that are meant to truly incite shit. If it passes you can make an amendment in the TL commandments or do George Carlin's scary words bit, so that everyone knows. ;p
So basically I'm saying, keep it to a case by case thing. Unless you really feel excluding words will increase the general quality of the site. ;p
this argument is not winnable by either side. there is LOTS of offense to be taken from being called a fag. I would NEVER use the word lightheartedly. I grew up cursing my brains out. its just second nature. I cannot hold a conversation without saying "Fucking" or some variant. I cannot remember the last time i ever used the words fag or faggot. They are derragatory, plain and simple. I call my best friends assholes like its second nature, never once "fag".
I use to say this and that were gay all the time. I now go to one of the most liberal schools in the country that houses an enormous gay population, so even that has been curbed.
When its in your face its easy to see how your words affect people, and just as easy to overlook when its not. I think this is INCREDIBLY important to think about when choosing your words, in case you are sensitive to offending people.
It's not that it's not winnable. It's about how willing are you to consider the consequences of your word choice? Of course using "gay" as a substitute for "stupid" etc. is offensive to some people, but that's not really the biggest problem.
It's not about hurting feelings, it's about not using "gay" (or "fag") to mean stupid or lame because it reinforces the idea that homosexuality is stupid or lame (or worse). The use of "gay" as an insult, even a friendly insult, immediately links homosexuality with those insults.
And the idea that it's an accepted part of the vernacular so it's fine to use is just silly. All those racial slurs that are clear bannable offenses were also accepted parts of the vernacular at one point as well.
we're not going to ban just for the word 'fag', that stuff is 100% contextual. that said, most of the time 'fag' is used in a negative context (flaming someone, or just being anti-gay - both of which are bannable), so expect bans to happen with the normal frequency on that subject. there is no link between homosexuality and someone saying 'manner pylon is so gay'.
the difference here is that words like 'nigger' and racist comments are always used in the context that is bannable, there is no alternative usage.
that's the bottom line, and is the approach we are using
Seriously, if someone is not capable of telling the difference between homophobic or gay bashing use of the words, they are not qualified to be a moderator here. This is pretty much common sense.
On March 12 2009 22:49 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: we're not going to ban just for the word 'fag', that stuff is 100% contextual. that said, most of the time 'fag' is used in a negative context (flaming someone, or just being anti-gay - both of which are bannable), so expect bans to happen with the normal frequency on that subject. there is no link between homosexuality and someone saying 'manner pylon is so gay'.
the difference here is that words like 'nigger' and racist comments are always used in the context that is bannable, there is no alternative usage.
that's the bottom line, and is the approach we are using
Just want to point out for the sake of playing devil's advocate, the reason "racist" comments are always considered racist is that people began to consider them always racist and banning their usage.
If you banned people who said "fag" or "gay" because they're intolerant, harmful expressions, than people wouldn't think so much about context. They'd simply consider the words inappropriate.
Just for example. If we all begin saying, "What a nigger manner pylon," there wouldn't officially be a link between african americans and manner pylons either. But I bet the above still sounds bad. It's because we're used to thinking about it as a derogatory term regardless of context: words have assigned meanings, not inherent meanings.
On March 12 2009 22:49 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: we're not going to ban just for the word 'fag', that stuff is 100% contextual. that said, most of the time 'fag' is used in a negative context (flaming someone, or just being anti-gay - both of which are bannable), so expect bans to happen with the normal frequency on that subject. there is no link between homosexuality and someone saying 'manner pylon is so gay'.
the difference here is that words like 'nigger' and racist comments are always used in the context that is bannable, there is no alternative usage.
that's the bottom line, and is the approach we are using
Just want to point out for the sake of playing devil's advocate, the reason "racist" comments are always considered racist is that people began to consider them always racist and banning their usage.
If you banned people who said "fag" or "gay" because they're intolerant, harmful expressions, than people wouldn't think so much about context. They'd simply consider the words inappropriate.
Just for example. If we all begin saying, "What a nigger manner pylon," there wouldn't officially be a link between african americans and manner pylons either. But I bet the above still sounds bad. It's because we're used to thinking about it as a derogatory term regardless of context: words have assigned meanings, not inherent meanings.
"what a nigger manner pylon" doesn't make sense at all, nobody is going to start saying that. do you really think people are going to see a post like "gas prices are pretty gay right now" and think they can respond with "yeah, the oil companies are run by total niggers"? We're not talking about what the situation was 50 years ago, or what it may be 50 years from now. this is 2009, and we're not dictating what words are acceptable or unacceptable worldwide. we are applying common sense to a situation and coming up with the best solution
racist comments have a shitload more weight to them, and there's good reason for that. the word 'gay' just doesn't mean anything outside of specific contexts. that's the way it is, i didn't decide it, and itd be asinine to start suddenly cracking down on something so common and harmless in the name of being progressive.
On March 12 2009 22:49 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: we're not going to ban just for the word 'fag', that stuff is 100% contextual. that said, most of the time 'fag' is used in a negative context (flaming someone, or just being anti-gay - both of which are bannable), so expect bans to happen with the normal frequency on that subject. there is no link between homosexuality and someone saying 'manner pylon is so gay'.
the difference here is that words like 'nigger' and racist comments are always used in the context that is bannable, there is no alternative usage.
that's the bottom line, and is the approach we are using
Not like the word nigger/niggah is never used in an ironic way -_-
Banning that word without exceptions is fine (since it's pretty limited in its positive usage anyway) but it's nowhere near true that it always has negative connotations.
I don't use the word personally (too stigmatized) but when I hear it the first thing that comes to mind isn't an insult but rap music --;
On March 12 2009 22:49 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: we're not going to ban just for the word 'fag', that stuff is 100% contextual. that said, most of the time 'fag' is used in a negative context (flaming someone, or just being anti-gay - both of which are bannable), so expect bans to happen with the normal frequency on that subject. there is no link between homosexuality and someone saying 'manner pylon is so gay'.
the difference here is that words like 'nigger' and racist comments are always used in the context that is bannable, there is no alternative usage.
that's the bottom line, and is the approach we are using
Not like the word nigger/niggah is never used in an ironic way -_-
I dunno what kind of argument you are trying to make. Sure it has been done.. and is done in rap music I guess? But I'd contend the frequency of "gay" or "fag" being used in an alternative way or ironic way is far greater than the amount of times "nigger" or "niggah" is used.
Also this forum is populated by 99% white dudes (or asians).. the point being non blacks. And yeah, race matters on a word that references 400 years of oppressive slavery
On March 13 2009 02:50 {88}iNcontroL wrote: And yeah, race matters on a word that references 400 years of oppressive slavery
I think that sexual orientation matters on a word that references (at least) a thousand years of oppressive homophobia.
hahahhahahahahahahahahhaahahhaahahahahhahaa
PLEASE
PLEASE
do not compare "fag" to "nigger" not even suggestively. It simply doesn't compare buddy. REALLY doesn't compare.
Fag = SO many things..
Nigger = 1 very specific point in time where that word was used to literally signify they were less than human.
I could go on but I know you already know all this.
Oh? Why shouldn't I compare the words? Black people were never officially sentenced to death just because they were black. Gay people were, sentenced to death for being gay for thousands of years, during the middle ages, and the practice still continues to this day. Black people had to deal with some harsh oppression, but it was never illegal for them to exist. I'm honestly not sure where you're coming from on this. Yes, slavery was bad. So is homophobia.
On March 13 2009 02:50 {88}iNcontroL wrote: And yeah, race matters on a word that references 400 years of oppressive slavery
I think that sexual orientation matters on a word that references (at least) a thousand years of oppressive homophobia.
hahahhahahahahahahahahhaahahhaahahahahhahaa
PLEASE
PLEASE
do not compare "fag" to "nigger" not even suggestively. It simply doesn't compare buddy. REALLY doesn't compare.
Fag = SO many things..
Nigger = 1 very specific point in time where that word was used to literally signify they were less than human.
I could go on but I know you already know all this.
Oh? Why shouldn't I compare the words? Black people were never officially sentenced to death just because they were black. Gay people were, sentenced to death for being gay for thousands of years, during the middle ages, and the practice still continues to this day. Black people had to deal with some harsh oppression, but it was never illegal for them to exist. I'm honestly not sure where you're coming from on this. Yes, slavery was bad. So is homophobia.
You are comparing apples to oranges. And I cannot believe you are comparing an ethnic race to sexual orientation. That is beyond ignorant.
And yes, black people have been sentenced to death for being black loool. I cannot take this conversation serious anymore dude. Read up on the subject.. like _at all_.
On March 12 2009 22:49 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: we're not going to ban just for the word 'fag', that stuff is 100% contextual. that said, most of the time 'fag' is used in a negative context (flaming someone, or just being anti-gay - both of which are bannable), so expect bans to happen with the normal frequency on that subject. there is no link between homosexuality and someone saying 'manner pylon is so gay'.
the difference here is that words like 'nigger' and racist comments are always used in the context that is bannable, there is no alternative usage.
that's the bottom line, and is the approach we are using
Not like the word nigger/niggah is never used in an ironic way -_-
I dunno what kind of argument you are trying to make. Sure it has been done.. and is done in rap music I guess? But I'd contend the frequency of "gay" or "fag" being used in an alternative way or ironic way is far greater than the amount of times "nigger" or "niggah" is used.
Also this forum is populated by 99% white dudes (or asians).. the point being non blacks. And yeah, race matters on a word that references 400 years of oppressive slavery
He said the word nigger ALWAYS carries racist connotations, and I don't think it does. I think it's a significantly stronger word than fag tho ;o
On March 12 2009 22:49 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: we're not going to ban just for the word 'fag', that stuff is 100% contextual. that said, most of the time 'fag' is used in a negative context (flaming someone, or just being anti-gay - both of which are bannable), so expect bans to happen with the normal frequency on that subject. there is no link between homosexuality and someone saying 'manner pylon is so gay'.
the difference here is that words like 'nigger' and racist comments are always used in the context that is bannable, there is no alternative usage.
that's the bottom line, and is the approach we are using
Not like the word nigger/niggah is never used in an ironic way -_-
I dunno what kind of argument you are trying to make. Sure it has been done.. and is done in rap music I guess? But I'd contend the frequency of "gay" or "fag" being used in an alternative way or ironic way is far greater than the amount of times "nigger" or "niggah" is used.
Also this forum is populated by 99% white dudes (or asians).. the point being non blacks. And yeah, race matters on a word that references 400 years of oppressive slavery
He said the word nigger ALWAYS carries racist connotations, and I don't think it does. I think it's a significantly stronger word than fag tho ;o
I really don't get what you're trying to say, there is some kind of huge disconnect here. Are we even talking about the same thing?
You are comparing apples to oranges. And I cannot believe you are comparing an ethnic race to sexual orientation. That is beyond ignorant.
The context is words that have a history of discrimination. I'm saying that 'nigger' is to black people as 'fag' is to homosexuals. Is that so hard to understand? Is that what you consider ignorant?
And yes, black people have been sentenced to death for being black loool.
You missed the key word in my sentence which was 'official', in this case meant as through the legal system. If there was ever a law somewhere that worked out to "it's illegal to be black, punishable by death", I do not know of it. There were a lot of harsh laws about black people, but I don't know of any regulating their existence.
I cannot take this conversation serious anymore dude. Read up on the subject.. like _at all_.
I would urge you to read up on the subject yourself. It looks to me like you're automatically entering forum troll mode on a subject which means a lot to a lot of people. You are making no effort to understand the other person's point of view, much less what I'm saying in my posts; they aren't long posts either. This must be what trying to reason with Raithed is like.
On March 13 2009 03:45 CDRdude wrote: I really don't get what you're trying to say, there is some kind of huge disconnect here. Are we even talking about the same thing?
You are comparing apples to oranges. And I cannot believe you are comparing an ethnic race to sexual orientation. That is beyond ignorant.
The context is words that have a history of discrimination. I'm saying that 'nigger' is to black people as 'fag' is to homosexuals. Is that so hard to understand? Is that what you consider ignorant?
And yes, black people have been sentenced to death for being black loool.
You missed the key word in my sentence which was 'official', in this case meant as through the legal system. If there was ever a law somewhere that worked out to "it's illegal to be black, punishable by death", I do not know of it. There were a lot of harsh laws about black people, but I don't know of any regulating their existence.
I cannot take this conversation serious anymore dude. Read up on the subject.. like _at all_.
I would urge you to read up on the subject yourself. It looks to me like you're automatically entering forum troll mode on a subject which means a lot to a lot of people. You are making no effort to understand the other person's point of view, much less what I'm saying in my posts; they aren't long posts either. This must be what trying to reason with Raithed is like.
No I would assume reasoning with raithed isn't like trying to convince someone that fag = nigger. Actually wait, it probably is like that.
No go ahead dude. Preach on. Tell me how the word "official" suddenly puts homophobic oppression over what happened/happens to african-americans/blacks. Tell me how fag has no context where it is ok like the word nigger. Nevermind that fag = bundle of sticks or cig at one point or another. And nigger has ALWAYS had the same terrible meaning.
Tell me how sexual orientation of favoring your own sex and facing oppressive social discomfort(not proven to be genetic) can be similar to being born black and forced into slavery/death/dehumanization.
dude saying a fag is a bundle of sticks is some grade school bullshit to get away with saying a bad word that kind of bullshit does not support your cause.
What the hell man? Are you even reading my posts? I'm not talking about how the word official magically changes everything. I worded my post poorly, but I thought I clarified it in my next post. I'll try to explain it again, in case I was unclear. I meant to say that a nation or state's legal system (that's where the word official came in) never made it punishable by death to be black. Legal systems past and present have made homoxsexuality punishable by death. In that regard, I think that homophobic oppression has been worse than what happened to blacks. As for facing "oppressive social discomfort" for being homosexual, maybe executions/murders/beatings count as social discomfort to you, but to me that's very similar to being forced into slavery/death/dehumanization.
On March 13 2009 04:15 CDRdude wrote: What the hell man? Are you even reading my posts? I'm not talking about how the word official magically changes everything. I worded my post poorly, but I thought I clarified it in my next post. I'll try to explain it again, in case I was unclear. I meant to say that a nation or state's legal system (that's where the word official came in) never made it punishable by death to be black. Legal systems past and present have made homoxsexuality punishable by death. In that regard, I think that homophobic oppression has been worse than what happened to blacks. As for facing "oppressive social discomfort" for being homosexual, maybe executions/murders/beatings count as social discomfort to you, but to me that's very similar to being forced into slavery/death/dehumanization.
Dude common? Homosexuality is arguably a choice, condition or at the very least a culture that a bunch of people have/choose. This gets blurry, and it is dangerous to even discuss with my current attention span (I don't feel like throwing the page long disclaimer necessary to properly discuss this without stepping on toes) but being black ethnically is leagues away from being homosexual. You literally can hide being a homosexual. You can never hide being black. You literally can choose to be homosexual. You literally can never choose to be back (woopsplastic surgery). "Official" is a nuance that gains you no ground. Blacks have been killed by states all over the world for being black and it HAS been official in so many places, including nazi germany. But that is a semantic. In the 400 years of slavery the US killed MANY blacks FOR BEING BLACK official or not it happened and that is ALL THAT MATTERS.
But this historical debate is garbage. I am simply saying nigger is FAR AND AWAY a worse thing to say in the context of this forum, the usa or really anywhere when compared to the word fag. Your personal preference aside: That is about as close to fact as we can get on such a subject.
Why are we even debating how or why these should be used?
Both are equally offensive to the general black person or general homosexual. Nigger is to a black person as fag is to a homosexual. Using these words, even in an ironic or sarcastic way, should be bannable.
FakeSteve[TPR]: ...that stuff is 100% contextual"..."there is no link between homosexuality and someone saying 'manner pylon is so gay'"
I disagree with you - I think it´s 0% contextual - any word that is offensive to race, gender or heritage should not be accepted. That is my opinion, as I see no reason to use those kind of words to express myself, specially not with the history both these categories of people have had.
Being homosexual is actually NOT a choice (and yes, I have been reading up on it). It isn't just genetics, but a part of the X chromosome has influence. Other factors are childhood interactions / trauma , and environment that one grows up in. (Yes, before you ask it's the short and vague version, you can read up on it yourself )
It isn't 100% pre-determined that someone is homosexual, but saying that it's a "choice" is pretty damn ignorant.
I would rather stay away from the other parts of this debate, but seeing a similar topic about homosexuality and reading how ignorant people are about this subject (and how they just throw unfounded opinions around like 100% bulletproof facts), I felt like I had to step in and share something what I didn't just pull out of my ass...
On March 13 2009 06:52 Naib wrote: Being homosexual is actually NOT a choice (and yes, I have been reading up on it). It isn't just genetics, but a part of the X chromosome has influence. Other factors are childhood interactions / trauma , and environment that one grows up in.
It isn't 100% pre-determined that someone is homosexual, but saying that it's a "choice" is pretty damn ignorant.
I would rather stay away from the other parts of this debate, but seeing a similar topic about homosexuality and reading how ignorant people are about this subject (and how they just throw unfounded opinions around like 100% bulletproof facts), I felt like I had to step in and share something what I didn't just pull out of my ass...
I wasn't saying being a homosexual is a choice. I was trying to say the lifestyle is a choice and I think some homosexuals DO choose to be homosexual to a certain degree. I also think / know others are homosexual because of environmental things like child abuse, rape or other traumatic events. I think there could be a genetic causal link as well.
Mostly I think the issue is very undecided and very hard to grasp in a few words. Don't get uppity on me because I gave all the disclaimers necessary. If you think I am trying to offend homosexuals you are wrong. If you think perhaps I am trying to argue the concept of "fag" vs nigger/rape on this forum specifically you are correct.
On March 13 2009 06:52 Naib wrote: Being homosexual is actually NOT a choice (and yes, I have been reading up on it). It isn't just genetics, but a part of the X chromosome has influence. Other factors are childhood interactions / trauma , and environment that one grows up in.
It isn't 100% pre-determined that someone is homosexual, but saying that it's a "choice" is pretty damn ignorant.
I would rather stay away from the other parts of this debate, but seeing a similar topic about homosexuality and reading how ignorant people are about this subject (and how they just throw unfounded opinions around like 100% bulletproof facts), I felt like I had to step in and share something what I didn't just pull out of my ass...
I wasn't saying being a homosexual is a choice. I was trying to say the lifestyle is a choice and I think some homosexuals DO choose to be homosexual to a certain degree. I also think / know others are homosexual because of environmental things like child abuse, rape or other traumatic events. I think there could be a genetic causal link as well.
Mostly I think the issue is very undecided and very hard to grasp in a few words. Don't get uppity on me because I gave all the disclaimers necessary. If you think I am trying to offend homosexuals you are wrong. If you think perhaps I am trying to argue the concept of "fag" vs nigger/rape on this forum specifically you are correct.
Ok, maybe I went too far in choosing my words Geoff, I didn't mean to insult you. Your post came off to me as if you were trying to say that, but if you meant the hiding identity (being a homosexual) part as a "choice" then we aren't in disagreement.
Yes, it isn't a decided issue yet, but what I said is where science today stands at.
I do not wish to argue fag / gay vs nigger / rape here, I just feel the need to correct any misunderstanding that would come from your post above.
(My opinion would be "fag" and the like being more acceptable than "nigga" , but that's just an opinion. The only basis is what I feel
Oh and I'm pretty sure the mods can apply good judgement based on their conscience, I don't think a debate like this is needed too much)
On March 05 2009 21:29 pavement ist rad wrote: I'm really glad this got posted. However, can we extend the "fag" and "gay" rule to all posts? I don't think that these words should ever be used as an insult or to mean something stupid that one disagrees with. Of course it has become part of our vernacular, but I've always seen TL as a fairly progressive place and it would be great to see these words disappear.
Nope. That shit really doesn't matter. We have gay forum members, and they don't care, so why on earth do you?
This is a terrible argument. It assumes that because the current representative of gays here don't care that all or at least 99% must not.
I happen to agree with you I just hate arguments like "Well my gays friends let me..."
On March 05 2009 21:29 pavement ist rad wrote: I'm really glad this got posted. However, can we extend the "fag" and "gay" rule to all posts? I don't think that these words should ever be used as an insult or to mean something stupid that one disagrees with. Of course it has become part of our vernacular, but I've always seen TL as a fairly progressive place and it would be great to see these words disappear.
Nope. That shit really doesn't matter. We have gay forum members, and they don't care, so why on earth do you?
This is a terrible argument. It assumes that because the current representative of gays here don't care that all or at least 99% must not.
I happen to agree with you I just hate arguments like "Well my gays friends let me..."
I don't really care what people who don't come to this site would find offensive on this site
It's less about it being offensive and more about it being an annoying old joke that needs to be put to rest.When 1/4 of the posts in a tourney thread are 1a2a3a references it gets kinda redundant.
On March 13 2009 13:08 Bosu wrote: It's less about it being offensive and more about it being an annoying old joke that needs to be put to rest.When 1/4 of the posts in a tourney thread are 1a2a3a references it gets kinda redundant.
Yep, exactly this. Come on, DeepGreen, nobody gets offended by 1a2a3a protoss is easy jokes.
On March 13 2009 13:08 Bosu wrote: It's less about it being offensive and more about it being an annoying old joke that needs to be put to rest.When 1/4 of the posts in a tourney thread are 1a2a3a references it gets kinda redundant.
...I actually never said 1a2a3a was offensive. I said it was more likely to get you banned than words that might offend people.
What tickles me is that SC has been around long enough to have "redundant" (as you put it) jokes about these factions that are, for lack of a better term, short-sighted and "racist."
not that they will be, because they're so ingrained in gamer culture, but the words "gay" and "rape" probably ought to be ban-worthy offenses. Those two words will always have offensive meanings to some members of the community, after all, and it's not like anyone's vocabulary is limited by removing them.
On March 15 2009 04:33 talismania wrote: not that they will be, because they're so ingrained in gamer culture, but the words "gay" and "rape" probably ought to be ban-worthy offenses. Those two words will always have offensive meanings to some members of the community, after all, and it's not like anyone's vocabulary is limited by removing them.
Just a suggestion though, I know it won't happen.
But those words are sometimes.. ahem... used to describe feelings.
Like for example, if there's a huge 200 food vs 200 food battle, and battle ends up with one player with 50 food and other with 150 food, we can say 'hope shit he just got raped' or 'wtf gay storms, destroyed all the tanks'.
I'm sure, in those context, people won't find them that offensive. Maybe we should do a poll?
But those words are sometimes.. ahem... used to describe feelings. <...> we can say 'hope shit he just got raped' or 'wtf gay storms, destroyed all the tanks'.
[QUOTE]
you mean you can't find other words to express your feelings? you must be popular with girls ^^
[QUOTE]On March 23 2009 00:21 Blunderbore wrote: [QUOTE]On March 22 2009 21:17 konadora wrote:
But those words are sometimes.. ahem... used to describe feelings. <...> we can say 'hope shit he just got raped' or 'wtf gay storms, destroyed all the tanks'.
[QUOTE]
you mean you can't find other words to express your feelings? you must be popular with girls ^^[/QUOTE]
You have to admit, in this instance konadora is right - try saying "jaedong just raped that n00b" and then "jaedong won."
There is a big differance! And don't try arguing that you could just substitute the word 'rape' for something else. In gaming culture, 'rape' has a connotation different from any other word you can find. Sure, you could get your point across without using the word, but it just wouldn't be the same.
The point is not that the word has a unique connotation in gaming culture... of course. Just like the N word has a unique connotation when used by certain groups compared to others.
The point is that, regardless, the use of any offensive word can be, well, offensive, even if the person who used it didn't intend it. That can't be changed. If there's a rape survivor on this forum, can you imagine how they feel every time they see the word used in such a relatively lighthearted context? Of course people don't mean it this way, but hearing the word used in this manner effectively equates their experience with someone beating someone else at starcraft. And that can cause at least a twinge of pain for survivors. The same point can be made about the word gay, since it's most often used in the gamer world to connote something negative.
Like I said before, nothing will change here with regards to official policy and these two words. But I hope, in the long run, that people think about the language they use. There are substitutions (none are perfect), but I, for example, use "lame" instead of gay and "own" instead of rape. Something to think about.
Going back a page to geoff + cdrdude's comments. This is sooooo dumb. Cdrdude are you still in middle school? Ok, here I'll make this really simple. Say I'm gay. Ok so now I'm gay, I like men, not so attracted to females. I now have the choice, hey am I going to go around telling ppl I like men. Hey I'm gay! Or could I hide it by so many things. I could even choose just not to have sex at all. I could just say ok I'm gonna go become a preacher, or I'm gonna go become a eunich. Just for the sake of argument either of those things is better then being dead.
Now to change it up. Say I'm black. Ok I'm black, in the past I would simply be a slave. Theres no choices I have here. I can't hide that I'm black. I can't make a lifestyle choice and say hey I'm going to just stop being black, or avoid being black. Its not even in the same category as being gay. Cdrdude, to conclude, you are a pathetic ignorant child. Good day sir ^_^!
I think a lot of people here miss the point. YES: fag/gay is used a lot, it is part of our vernacular, it means a lot of things, and NONE of them are good.
the POINT: even though you don't realize it, you are using the word as an insult, which is harmful. You should try not to use language like this on the internet or in real life. Words are powerful, they are linked to stigmas which we should try as whole to break down. Using such words just continues them.
On March 23 2009 00:32 Calyx wrote: You have to admit, in this instance konadora is right - try saying "jaedong just raped that n00b" and then "jaedong won."
That's a classic strawman. There are other alternatives that do not use the word "rape" that are more exciting than "won":
"Jaedong owned the hell out of that fuggin' n00b." "Jaedong absolutely crushed that n00b."
They get the point across without using that language. And they allow us to all sound different, instead of everybody using the exact same language like they were clones or something.
Also, if you have to call a match a "rape," it had better be exactly that. Not just "owning" or "won handily" or even "dominated the match". So many things have been called "rape" that aren't worthy of that word that it's starting to lose all meaning.
In this day and age, I don't really see how there's any argument from the people who want to justify their usage of these words. If you want to appear civilized and be considerate to other people, try finding replacement words or at least have the decency to recognize (and maybe apologize for) your mistaken word usage. If you want to use the word then go for it, there's no law stopping you (freedom of speech and all that ). However, just realize that you will come off as someone stupid and ignorant to other people. Of course, most people don't care about what others think I suppose, so this point is usually moot.
Personally, I cringe at these words and my personal opinion of the person using these words usually goes down a bit. It just shows one is not understanding what he or she is saying or one just doesn't really care that much about other people.
On March 13 2009 09:43 DamageControL wrote: This is a terrible argument. It assumes that because the current representative of gays here don't care that all or at least 99% must not.
I happen to agree with you I just hate arguments like "Well my gays friends let me..."
EPT
![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/listen_to_yourself.png)
![[image loading]](http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8949/aw080613.gif)
![[image loading]](http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/886/keyboard4ih6ng0.jpg)
