EPT[WL] OZ vs SKT1 - Page 4
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On February 28 2009 10:45 Rostam wrote: This. Also, I think you're not giving Hiya nearly enough credit to say Best would "roll" him. I don't know what Hwaseung's coaches are up to but I think if Hiya has been putting in a lot of work on Sin Chupung-Ryeong he has quite a good chance of taking down Best there. His TvP is pretty good and Best has definitely been showing some weakness lately in his PvT. The map will definitely help HiyA, but I don't think it will be enough. Last time he played BeSt (on Andromeda a month ago) he got straight up abused - the game wasn't even close. Hence my use of the word "roll" - if BeSt rolled HiyA, that would mean a much more even game than the one they played on Andromeda  . And it's not like BeSt hasn't been practicing his PvT since then (he had 3 Terran opponents in the OSL).I'm not sure what you mean by BeSt's PvT has been "showing some weakness". He lost to Light on RH3 (it'd take a miracle to beat a half-decent Terran PvT on RH3) and to a great timing push from Hwasin in the OSL...his most recent PvT was an absolutely brilliant show against Flash in a do-or-die game where he had to fight map balance, cancel his nexus, and break out of a pretty serious contain. BeSt's PvT is still monstrous. I'm not really that confident in BeSt getting a 3-kill - as I mentioned, OZ could easily send Jaedong out earlier. And obviously BeSt could surprise us and lose to ggaemo or a Hwaseung Terran. But I think saying BeSt > ggaemo and BeSt > any OZ Terran is the safe bet here. One more thing: BeSt has been a bit off in the WL lately, but I think his OSL games show that he's still a force to be reckoned with. The main reason he's got such a poor record lately is because he's had to play a lot of Zergs. Beware underestimating his PvT/PvP, they're still top tier. | ||
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Malongo
Chile3472 Posts
On February 28 2009 10:50 JWD wrote: The map will definitely help HiyA, but I don't think it will be enough. Last time he played BeSt (on Andromeda a month ago) he got straight up abused - the game wasn't even close. Hence my use of the word "roll" - if BeSt rolled HiyA, that would mean a much more even game than the one they played on Andromeda . And it's not like BeSt hasn't been practicing his PvT since then (he had 3 Terran opponents in the OSL).I'm not sure what you mean by BeSt's PvT has been "showing some weakness". He lost to Light on RH3 (it'd take a miracle to beat a half-decent Terran PvT on RH3) and to a great timing push from Hwasin in the OSL...his most recent PvT was an absolutely brilliant show against Flash in a do-or-die game where he had to fight map balance, cancel his nexus, and break out of a pretty serious contain. BeSt's PvT is still monstrous. I'm not really that confident in BeSt getting a 3-kill - as I mentioned, OZ could easily send Jaedong out earlier. And obviously BeSt could surprise us and lose to ggaemo or a Hwaseung Terran. But I think saying BeSt > ggaemo and BeSt > any OZ Terran is the safe bet here. One more thing: BeSt has been a bit off in the WL lately, but I think his OSL games show that he's still a force to be reckoned with. The main reason he's got such a poor record lately is because he's had to play a lot of Zergs. Beware underestimating his PvT/PvP, they're still top tier. Im 100% convinced that the real slump from Best in WL is beacuse of the league format. Just look at his stats for the 3 proleague rounds before this, the guy was always top 3, almost never missed a proleague match and was by far the Ace on SKT (yes over Bisu). But then again he was most of the time playing in a determined map/mu, and he was sent mostly on a balanced map for P (coloseum). This guy will be back as soon as WL is over. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66161 Posts
Voted Best starter all kill but... seeing his Andromeda PvZ, I don't think it's possible. Still.. GO SKT1 :D | ||
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St0rmRush
Brazil448 Posts
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
On February 28 2009 10:50 JWD wrote: + Show Spoiler + The map will definitely help HiyA, but I don't think it will be enough. Last time he played BeSt (on Andromeda a month ago) he got straight up abused - the game wasn't even close. Hence my use of the word "roll" - if BeSt rolled HiyA, that would mean a much more even game than the one they played on Andromeda . And it's not like BeSt hasn't been practicing his PvT since then (he had 3 Terran opponents in the OSL).I'm not sure what you mean by BeSt's PvT has been "showing some weakness". He lost to Light on RH3 (it'd take a miracle to beat a half-decent Terran PvT on RH3) and to a great timing push from Hwasin in the OSL...his most recent PvT was an absolutely brilliant show against Flash in a do-or-die game where he had to fight map balance, cancel his nexus, and break out of a pretty serious contain. BeSt's PvT is still monstrous. I'm not really that confident in BeSt getting a 3-kill - as I mentioned, OZ could easily send Jaedong out earlier. And obviously BeSt could surprise us and lose to ggaemo or a Hwaseung Terran. But I think saying BeSt > ggaemo and BeSt > any OZ Terran is the safe bet here. One more thing: BeSt has been a bit off in the WL lately, but I think his OSL games show that he's still a force to be reckoned with. The main reason he's got such a poor record lately is because he's had to play a lot of Zergs. Beware underestimating his PvT/PvP, they're still top tier. We seem to have differing views on his recent games. I didn't see his game against Light, but there are 3 things that I think of when it comes to his recent PvT: 1) His series against Skyhigh 2) His game against Hwasin 3) His game against Flash The game against Hwasin seemed to be him getting punished for going fast arbiters. He does that a lot, it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility for Hiya to have a counter planned for it. The game against Flash, he broke the contain with +30 supply against an unupgraded Terran army with a lot of speedlots against mostly tanks while they were both still on 2 bases. I'm no expert, so maybe I'm missing something that happened here. I'd also be interested to hear how the map made things harder for him in that game. I'm not saying Hiya is going to crush him, I just wouldn't take a game from 2 months ago as evidence that Hiya has absolutely no chance to beat him, and I think the fact that he seems to have become incapable of anything but fast arbiters could come back to bite him pretty easily. Crazier things have happened. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
On February 28 2009 11:28 Rostam wrote: + Show Spoiler + We seem to have differing views on his recent games. I didn't see his game against Light, but there are 3 things that I think of when it comes to his recent PvT: 1) His series against Skyhigh 2) His game against Hwasin 3) His game against Flash The game against Hwasin seemed to be him getting punished for going fast arbiters. He does that a lot, it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility for Hiya to have a counter planned for it. The game against Flash, he broke the contain with +30 supply against an unupgraded Terran army with a lot of speedlots against mostly tanks while they were both still on 2 bases. I'm no expert, so maybe I'm missing something that happened here. I'd also be interested to hear how the map made things harder for him in that game. I'm not saying Hiya is going to crush him, I just wouldn't take a game from 2 months ago as evidence that Hiya has absolutely no chance to beat him, and I think the fact that he seems to have become incapable of anything but fast arbiters could come back to bite him pretty easily. Crazier things have happened. HiyA may have a counter for fast arbiters, but BeSt is also a very BO/game preparation oriented sort of player - so maybe he'll anticipate this. Also, I think on this generation of maps fast arbiter is a much more robust strategy than most people think - that would explain why we're seeing almost every top Protoss play 2 (quite often) or 3 base arbiter so frequently. The Terran can mass and execute a perfect timing push like Hwasin did, but that's very difficult to do and if it fails, the Terran will be in a world of hurt. As for the Flash game: as usual with BeSt, what impressed me wasn't his micro (though it was pretty damn good during the contain break) but his management and macro. I don't think it takes anything away from BeSt to say that he had a huge supply advantage upon the contain break - in fact, I argue that supply advantage is the very reason the contain break was remarkable. After having to cancel his nat and up against elimination with Flash's tanks massing outside his nat, BeSt kept his composure, maintained his impeccable macro, and picked the perfect timing to attack. The very fact that he so outnumbered Flash (who was cutting mad SCVs) is impressive to me. Tears is tough to PvT on for several reasons, and a few of them came into play in BeSt vs. Flash. The nat is wide open and approachable from 2 directions, which means the Protoss's FE is vulnerable to the usual aggressive Terran openings and the nat is vulnerable to vultures in general. I guarantee BeSt had to build pylons ahead of when he would have liked, just so he could block his nat's back door from vulture harass (which Flash did eventually attempt). The main balance issue that came up in this game, though, was the fact that there is buildable high ground right outside the nat. This means a huge advantage for a Terran contain, and Flash abused it as best he could. Note that, although BeSt did end up going 2base arbiter against Flash, this isn't because he's a robot who just plays 2base arb no matter what (yes, BeSt does like fast arbiters). It's because 2base arbs were his best response to Flash's contain. | ||
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liger13
United States1060 Posts
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WingSandrockX
Korea (North)1164 Posts
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deathgod6
United States5064 Posts
 Hopefully SKT won't lose. Even though Oz is strong, I don't think SKT can deal with many more losses. | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
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iloahz
United States964 Posts
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imperfect
Canada1652 Posts
On February 28 2009 10:49 writer22816 wrote: Excellent! I hope we can see fOrGG vs BeSt here, finally. im actually looking forward to this particular mu as well. macro machine vs macro machine god it's just going to be two brutes punching each other to death haha | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
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St0rmRush
Brazil448 Posts
On February 28 2009 12:49 JWD wrote: Stream up! Intro playing now! what stream ur using? | ||
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
Try this one: http://sportslive.media.daum.net/live_tiny/player.jsp?channel=MBCGAME&league=ESPORTS&game=ESPORTS2009022802&home=OZ&away=T1 | ||
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Creationism
China505 Posts
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
I"m using PPStream to watch and no lag, but it's a Chinese software that's filled with attempts to install adware and other crap on your comp. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On February 28 2009 12:55 JWD wrote: Ah! OP's Daum Sports link is actually to STX-KHAN! Try this one: http://sportslive.media.daum.net/live_tiny/player.jsp?channel=MBCGAME&league=ESPORTS&game=ESPORTS2009022802&home=OZ&away=T1 woops edit: wait thats the one that is posted there already | ||
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