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On July 13 2008 05:02 .risingdragoon wrote:
Huge economy and army advantage don't just happen by accident. July didn't start the game with 5 running expos, he took them.
I don't feel like rebuffing everyone of your arguments. Suffice to say there were a few instances in the game where Best was really strong, just that July had an answer for him.
The guardian counter to those reavers hiding in the middle of the P army was just dropdead sexy.
Would you try reading my posts next time before answering? DID I SAY JULY GOT ARMY ADVANTAGE OUT OF NOWHERE? I even mentioned his game plan was way better (this involves his base timming). The only point at where BeSt had a chance was when he got into July's 3rd gas, he had his army moving around the map but BeSt couldn't run into July's expos or main because July had drops. If BeSt pushed against any of those July could have just sacrificed any of them while raping BeSt's base.
And for your information those guardians were barely cost effective, they got stormed while clumped. Micro is making the best out of the units you have, BeSt did that (did you see him killing a shitload of ultras with mass storms + zealot archon?).
One valid argument is saying what psychotemplar said, that July was more focused on his macro because he knew he could just overwhelm beSt with units (Which he did). Saying "Huge economy and army advantage don't just happen by accident. July didn't start the game with 5 running expos, he took them." doesn't add anything to the thread and doesn't answer to the previous posts.
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I thought it was a great series. July has been at the top of his game, and his ZvP has always been insane, while Best hasn't shown anything that great vs Z, so I wasn't really surprised by the results.
July is often misconstrued as some overaggressive low econ zerg who has failed to adapt to the modern macro style, but this is flat out wrong. He has always had very strong macro, remember this? + Show Spoiler + It may be true that he is often too aggressive and loses games because of it, but that is a necessary flaw. Either a player has an aggressive style or a passive style, nobody can have a perfect game sense for their career.
IMO July's style is far from outdated, and one current player mirrors it very well and with great success. Jaedong: aggressive, strong micro and multitasking, and the ability to macro Sauron zerg style.
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On July 13 2008 05:04 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2008 04:30 IntoTheWow wrote:
Btw guys jumping in my thing about July having a easier run, read his interview, he confirms it. I don't see the word "easier" anywhere in the interview.
He's not going to quote my post in his interview. But he said he got lucky he didn't have to face any terrans and then he implies he has to prove himself against terrans, that means he got a lucky/easier run.
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All that being said i think July's ZvP is WAY stronger than BeSt, no arguing that (like I said a billion times already). Just that overall BeSt seems like a more complete player than July.
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On July 13 2008 05:08 LxRogue wrote:
IMO July's style is far from outdated, and one current player mirrors it very well and with great success. Jaedong: aggressive, strong micro and multitasking, and the ability to macro Sauron zerg style.
Yeah I though of that too, the main difference i see between Jaedong and July is that Jaedong plays more defensive/passively early game, he usually opts for some defense orientated builds while droning a lot (until his muta/lurkers come out) while july gets agressive early on while taking his expansions.
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-People say you were lucky with the lack of terrans in this season
▲To tell you the truth I think I really was lucky. To be a zerg and not meet any terrans is already accomplishing half of your goals. However, to the people who believe I won the OSL because of luck is like insulting the players I have beaten. The players I have beater were players who have beaten terran players. To insult me is like insulting the players I have beaten. I still think that I was lucky.
He got lucky to not face terran opponent but he didnt say he had an easier path than Best ? U are extrapolating
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On July 13 2008 05:07 IntoTheWow wrote:
Would you try reading my posts next time before answering? DID I SAY JULY GOT ARMY ADVANTAGE OUT OF NOWHERE? I even mentioned his game plan was way better (this involves his base timming). The only point at where BeSt had a chance was when he got into July's 3rd gas, he had his army moving around the map but BeSt couldn't run into July's expos or main because July had drops. If BeSt pushed against any of those July could have just sacrificed any of them while raping BeSt's base.
And for your information those guardians were barely cost effective, they got stormed while clumped. Micro is making the best out of the units you have, BeSt did that (did you see him killing a shitload of ultras with mass storms + zealot archon?).
One valid argument is saying what psychotemplar said, that July was more focused on his macro because he knew he could just overwhelm beSt with units (Which he did). Saying "Huge economy and army advantage don't just happen by accident. July didn't start the game with 5 running expos, he took them." doesn't add anything to the thread and doesn't answer to the previous posts.
What's your point? Does better micro, if Best had that, somehow redeems for the fact that July had the big picture won? BTW I was replying to psychotemplar.
Also July didn't have his guardians storm killed. Watch it again, Best stormed but July moved them. Best finished them later with 1 storm on a single guardian and shot down the others with dragoons.
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no way that Best is overall a best player than july. for gods sakes. july is a complete player, for short games, all-in games, macro games, micro, etc. Best is really good, but not as july...
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To those people despairing about PvZ... I see why you might think that after Jaedong >> Much and July >> Best, but if you look at the proleague stats P > Z at 28:25. (And T >> Z at 33:19 T_T.)
These two most recent series were because of Jaedong / July just playing better in their matches.
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-People say you were lucky with the lack of terrans in this season
▲To tell you the truth I think I really was lucky. To be a zerg and not meet any terrans is already accomplishing half of your goals. However, to the people who believe I won the OSL because of luck is like insulting the players I have beaten. The players I have beater were players who have beaten terran players. To insult me is like insulting the players I have beaten. I still think that I was lucky.
His run was easier than BeSt in july's words. July said he got half the work done by not facing terrans (his weakest mu), contrary to BeSt who got semis and finals against Zergs (his weakest mu) -> July had an easier run than BeSt.
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i also want to hit my hat against the wall = (,
best why didnt you pwn this big boy,
i wanted to see more games, best could not show what he is capable of...
hope bisu consoles him..
the first two games feel like cheese for me GRMBL
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On July 13 2008 05:16 IntoTheWow wrote:
-People say you were lucky with the lack of terrans in this season
▲To tell you the truth I think I really was lucky. To be a zerg and not meet any terrans is already accomplishing half of your goals. However, to the people who believe I won the OSL because of luck is like insulting the players I have beaten. The players I have beater were players who have beaten terran players. To insult me is like insulting the players I have beaten. I still think that I was lucky.
His run was easier than BeSt in july's words. July said he got half the work done by not facing terrans (his weakest mu), contrary to BeSt who got semis and finals against Zergs (his weakest mu) -> July had an easier run than BeSt.
That's called extrapolating.
BTW I don't think you should be using July's candidness and humbleness to your argument.
It's just looks bad on you.
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On July 13 2008 05:13 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2008 05:07 IntoTheWow wrote:
Would you try reading my posts next time before answering? DID I SAY JULY GOT ARMY ADVANTAGE OUT OF NOWHERE? I even mentioned his game plan was way better (this involves his base timming). The only point at where BeSt had a chance was when he got into July's 3rd gas, he had his army moving around the map but BeSt couldn't run into July's expos or main because July had drops. If BeSt pushed against any of those July could have just sacrificed any of them while raping BeSt's base.
And for your information those guardians were barely cost effective, they got stormed while clumped. Micro is making the best out of the units you have, BeSt did that (did you see him killing a shitload of ultras with mass storms + zealot archon?).
One valid argument is saying what psychotemplar said, that July was more focused on his macro because he knew he could just overwhelm beSt with units (Which he did). Saying "Huge economy and army advantage don't just happen by accident. July didn't start the game with 5 running expos, he took them." doesn't add anything to the thread and doesn't answer to the previous posts. What's your point? Does better micro, if Best had that, somehow redeems for the fact that July had the big picture won? BTW I was replying to psychotemplar. Also July didn't have his guardians storm killed. Watch it again, Best stormed but July moved them. Best finished them later with 1 storm on a single guardian and shot down the others with dragoons.
I didn't say any of the things you are replying. First my post about micro is in answer to THIS POST:
On July 12 2008 22:46 RobRoy2501 wrote:
This thread is hilarious.
Best was sweating like crazy in that last match, he was outclassed. He got beat in every way possible.
-rush beat him
-late game beat him
-micro beat him
-macro beat him
-nerves beat him
-strategy beat him
-mental toughness(or lack thereof) beat him
And second I never said july had his guardians storm killed I said he got them stormed while clumped (he got them all to low hp btw, this happened against july's first guardians near the middle of the map).
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On July 13 2008 05:19 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2008 05:16 IntoTheWow wrote:
-People say you were lucky with the lack of terrans in this season
▲To tell you the truth I think I really was lucky. To be a zerg and not meet any terrans is already accomplishing half of your goals. However, to the people who believe I won the OSL because of luck is like insulting the players I have beaten. The players I have beater were players who have beaten terran players. To insult me is like insulting the players I have beaten. I still think that I was lucky.
His run was easier than BeSt in july's words. July said he got half the work done by not facing terrans (his weakest mu), contrary to BeSt who got semis and finals against Zergs (his weakest mu) -> July had an easier run than BeSt. That's called extrapolating. BTW I don't think you should be using July's candidness and humbleness to your argument. It's just looks bad on you.
Why does it look bad on me? It's not like the interviewer asked him "ARE YOU THE BEST PLAYER RIGHT NOW?". They asked him something else and he says that he doesn't feel the best player right now. That could be him being humble or just being honest, why do you say that he says it to be humble?
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Moving something when they get stormed is micro to me?
Ok you need to take a break, this is getting infantile, arguing over peanuts like "getting his guardian stormed BUT NOT killed so that's bad".
His guardians were critical in smashing the big protoss army with reaver support. They solidified the game.
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On July 13 2008 05:25 .risingdragoon wrote:
Moving something when they get stormed is micro to me?
Ok you need to take a break, this is getting infantile, arguing over peanuts like "getting his guardian stormed BUT NOT killed so that's bad". HIs guardians were game critical, they were critical in smashing the big protoss army with reaver support.
July's micro with guardians is more than "moving them". I mean if he was actually microing them, he would have splitted them before hand.
I'm not pointing it at being something TERRIBLY BAD. I'm just saying that people said like July had best micro, macro, game sense, game plan, mind to win the games, more everything. If I said july's drone splits early game WERE MIND BLOWING, these people, they would agree with me.
Do you see my point and what im arguing against?
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On July 13 2008 05:10 IntoTheWow wrote:
All that being said i think July's ZvP is WAY stronger than BeSt, no arguing that (like I said a billion times already). Just that overall BeSt seems like a more complete player than July for me.
Fixed.
IMO, currently BeSt can't be more "complete" than July. You said it yourself, July is way stronger ZvP than best and also July overcame an all Z group so his vZ should be at least good enough. So that is 2 out of 3 matchups that July is "good" at. Then lets take BeSt, he defeated T and P on his way to the finals so that is also 2 out of 3 matchups. You can argue that BeSt was able to defeat a Z in Luxury but July also beat two T's (Mind and Frozean) so that cancels that argument out.
So at the very least, currently, July is equal to BeSt in the "completeness" category. But since July won this OSL then he gets +1 and is now better than BeSt. 
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IntoTheWow give it up dude, you just sound like a bummed out fanboi. BeSt got totally owned 3-0 because he didn't deserve the finals. And you want to talk about an easy run? BeST didn't even have to vs Flash who would have probably also 3-0'ed him (lol)
Best HARDLY had to face any TvP monsters, or even ZvP monsters (until July who owned him up)
As far as I'm conserned BeSt has alot to prove and people who thought this choker was better than Jaedong or Flash are fooling themselves
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On July 13 2008 05:32 dyodyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2008 05:10 IntoTheWow wrote:
All that being said i think July's ZvP is WAY stronger than BeSt, no arguing that (like I said a billion times already). Just that overall BeSt seems like a more complete player than July for me. Fixed. IMO, currently BeSt can't be more "complete" than July. You said it yourself, July is way stronger ZvP than best and also July overcame an all Z group so his vZ should be at least good enough. So that is 2 out of 3 matchups that July is "good" at. Then lets take BeSt, he defeated T and P on his way to the finals so that is also 2 out of 3 matchups. You can argue that BeSt was able to defeat a Z in Luxury but July also beat two T's (Mind and Frozean) so that cancels that argument out. So at the very least, currently, July is equal to BeSt in the "completeness" category. But since July won this OSL then he gets +1 and is now better than BeSt.
Are you actually mentioning July beating Frozean as July being good at ZvT? Frozean? Seriously? Did you even know his record or results against zerg?
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Whatever I'm not even going to bother when people nitpick silly stuff about my posts to make me look like I'm saying something outrageous and crazy.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/906/rovjulyrockay4.gif)
