On August 22 2023 23:48 Nirli wrote: Props to Eonzerg for predicting how the ZvZ would play out. I'll always maintain my opinion that Z is the strongest race in the game, just impossible to play perfectly. Some day when we get better SC AI this would be proven. Same when Flash lost against Soma as random P - you can kill 15 overlords but Z won't budge.
I don't think that is even controversial. Imagine every single Zergling being controlled by an AI lol.
On August 22 2023 23:13 Artas1984 wrote: Loved the part where Free gave his 7 archons for "free" to be destroyed by hydralisks. Loved the part where Free gave half of his army for "free" to dance on lurker spines. Loved the part where Free gave his 7 shuttles for "free" to fly over a defended zerg base and be destroyed. Loved the many parts where Free gave up all of his observers for "free" to be destroyed by scourge.
Free is trash, he lost to Light not because Light played amazingly, but because the skill difference was too wide.
bro there's no way free is trash, did you even watch that ASL match between him and snow where he pushed snow's reaver micro to its limit? dude played his heart out in that match
he is one of the six protoss dragons ffs. dude came back to the scene, qualified for ASL in the modern era... put some respect on his name.
tbh light playing comfortably with good mental has proven time and time again in daily proleagues, kcm etc. that he is a tvp defensive monster. he used to be known as a tvz sniper with mediocre tvp, he has come so far. he is good enough to take games off of flash in ASL tvt series. as far as potential light is elite. is it a far comparison to call free trash for losing to light in bo1 format when some of the only toss to make light look mortal are mini (on a good day) and snow? sometimes best, a pvt specialist?
the protoss talent pool is so damn thin nowadays. toss supporters were rejoicing at rain's return, only for him to bomb out of a ro24 group with calm and sea. bisu with bracket luck can make it to ro8 but against a strong T like light he looks kinda lost, and his pvz doesn't dazzle anymore. mini has horrible mental and gets easily tilted; after finally winning ASL he looks content to all-kill in daily proleagues with streaming and sponmatches being his main source of income, not ASL. snow looks strong until he doesn't, and has faltered in ASL multiple times. we pinned all our hopes on best last season who showed great dark archon play in pvz, only to fizzle out against mind's tvp defensive style.
tl;dr on a good day sending a toss to play light is like sending a lamb to the slaughter. even when mini was playing hot light took him out in ro16. unfair comparison
Regarding Free, a bit of context needed (and that's why I argued in another thread about the importance of understanding the current Korean BW scene, rather than just judging players from ASL only).
Free practically retired due to a combination of injury and motivation, and by that I mean he went completely offline for long periods. But he was always brought back by one of the SC universities. These days he barely played anymore, maybe a few spongames or a proleague here and there. He spent most of his time coaching female SC students and doing uni activities, or simply put, being a streamer. Actually him beating Barracks to qualify for ASL was a bit of a shock.
Bro, i was overreacting simply because i was disappointed in his performance. Of course he is a good protoss (not great though), but sometimes he plays trashy games, like in this group. Perhaps he is rusted already like Stork or perhaps he came tired - who knows, but that sort of sloppy gameplay we saw where he threw not only his units, but his strategy as well vs. Effort is unacceptable on TV.
But thank's for the fair reply, ye - i've seen all the ASL matches.
On August 23 2023 03:20 TMNT wrote: Regarding Free, a bit of context needed
On August 22 2023 23:48 Nirli wrote: Props to Eonzerg for predicting how the ZvZ would play out. I'll always maintain my opinion that Z is the strongest race in the game, just impossible to play perfectly. Some day when we get better SC AI this would be proven. Same when Flash lost against Soma as random P - you can kill 15 overlords but Z won't budge.
I don't think that is even controversial. Imagine every single Zergling being controlled by an AI lol.
I'm not even talking about micro, more drone managament/macro.
This is probably just me being both a noob (i dont play this game) and hopeful for more variety in ZvZ (as we all are), but I have to ask nonetheless: Is it clear and certain that Effort's play to get into hive in that game cannot be reliably replicated? I don't know how prepared and thought out that was, but the basic elements seem to have consisted of
- 11hatch in main to get more larva but without having a second base - lots of static d (probably related to the in-base 11h, only need to defend one base against muta. Tho i cannot remember whether the nat was up when action's mutas arrived) - tight simcity (and weird simcity too; nat gas mining...) - hold and try to harras with lings in order to survive till hive
And some other stuff like the burrowed lings (which I'm not sure whether they were essential). Then in Hive we saw usage of all zerg units except guardians and queens by both players (well, effort didn't use devourers or ultras). The thought that it might be developed into a viable strat occurs to me because
a) iirc there weren't any major screwups, instances of luck or decidedly one-sided encounters by either players in that game till we made it into hive. I.e. it was possible to get into hive without magic, luck, godlike micro or anything else that would have to be considered decidedly abnormal. Including actions build. b) in my understanding standard ZvZ is already quite a gamble unless you're one of the micro-gods (small encounters decide everything), so even a strat with shaky reliability might be preferable to the usual let's-throw-the-dice-with-muta-scourge, especially to someone who's good at hive tech and/or doesn't have godlike muta-ling micro c) action had the initial scout advantage and still couldn't stop effort from getting into hive. Like, he knew what was going on from very early on and did not have a immediate hard-counter that categorically shuts down this strat. Ofc this is probably 99% attributable to novelty, but what I am trying to say is that maybe there isn't such a counter which would mean this BO is not prima facie a evolutionary dead-end. d) if you combine b) with c), it follows (i think) that pursuing this strat regularly may win you some portion of games more reliably than standard somewhat-shaky ZvZ BOs and therefore becomes viable as a BO that pros use.
Wow a lot of you are shitting on free. Dude was either at the bottom or the bottom of the 6 dragons. Beyond their era he was decent at best. While he lost, coming back from retirement and injury iirc, he actually showed better play than I think he ever has. If he was really on point all of those matches were winnable.
Beyond that though holy shit does Effort just give the best matches? Over a decade of just heavy macro craziness and he can wear anyone out including flash. It is so good to see a match not dictated by the move that happened at 6 minutes ending the game. Not that action snapping necks isn't good, but he will get caught out and ended because of it.
On August 21 2023 22:18 TMNT wrote: Maps are not too bad imo. But should just make it BO3 all the way.
Don't forget Queen and JD are favorites to go through tomorrow as well. Ro16 is gonna be a bore fest.
I disagree on this, tempest is a P graveyard and for some reason P being slightly worse is the normal in all the other maps.
Tempest still has positive win rate for P in both matchups, although I don't know when the sample size is significant enough it could change. But I agree that from a gameplay point of view I dont see how that map is good for P. High ground nat which means T can go Rax expand without worrying about the bunker being hit. Expansions easy to defend for T. And the pathways are just horrible, there's just no place for P to take a fight. For PvZ the only good thing is the high ground nat which in theory should limit the possibility of hydra bust, but oh well it still happened.
Regarding people complaining about Bo1s in every single group where there's an upset:
Is this just an influx of SC2 fans or something (which I think never use Bo1s any more but I could be wrong)? BW tournaments have used Bo1s in early stages of tournaments forever and done just fine. OSL Used Bo1 for Ro24/Ro16 for it's entire existence I think. MSL used Bo1 for Ro32 groups (which was the best seed that previous winners could obtain IIRC).
Bo1 is fine in early stages.. makes early rounds go by quicker, allows for some upsets, makes the whole thing a bit more exciting. If every single stage was a Bo7 it'd be way less exciting. Don't hate the game, hate the player.
On August 31 2023 22:39 Ideas wrote: Regarding people complaining about Bo1s in every single group where there's an upset:
Is this just an influx of SC2 fans or something (which I think never use Bo1s any more but I could be wrong)? BW tournaments have used Bo1s in early stages of tournaments forever and done just fine. OSL Used Bo1 for Ro24/Ro16 for it's entire existence I think. MSL used Bo1 for Ro32 groups (which was the best seed that previous winners could obtain IIRC).
Bo1 is fine in early stages.. makes early rounds go by quicker, allows for some upsets, makes the whole thing a bit more exciting. If every single stage was a Bo7 it'd be way less exciting. Don't hate the game, hate the player.
Problem is you had 6 OSL+MSL a year back then, plus Proleague and other special tournaments like WCG. Also more groups/players. Still BO1 is a shitty format in any esports, but with that many games being played and how frequently it was, it's understandable to reduce the air time.
Now 2 ASLs a year is all we have. It's like what? 25% compared to Kespa.
A very appropriate comparison would be tennis. Plenty of ATP 1000s throughout the year: BO3. But the four GSs, the most prestigious tournaments: BO5 all the way.
Hm yea that's a good point I hadn't considered. I do miss there being more than 1 starleague going on :\ . I wouldn't mind if next season ASL changed Ro24 to use same format as Ro16 (first 2 matches are Bo1, then winners/losers/final are Bo3).
Seems like there's a lot of fan money being poured into daily proleague (way more earnings in that for players than ASL, no?). Too bad there's no way for that get syphoned off into another tournament on scale of ASL/KSL.
EPT
