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I don't really wanna be a party pooper, but since everybody is saying the play was so great etc. I only watched until Artosis' PC was starting have problems (prob first 3-4 games), but I was pretty disappointed by the lvl of play. I expected more of it tbh and I felt Cadenzie was just playing some somewhat poorly executed all-in strats, while Scarlett's control in early was not always great and both players in general made plenty of mistakes.
On top of that I also really felt like Scarlett had quite little game awareness and didn't realize how far ahead she was at times and instead of finishing the game or trying to move out, just played defensively while the game was already over. The game with the hydra/lurker drop rush by denzie and the one where denzie tried to hydra bust and then switched into muta with a non-existent economy come to mind.
Anyway, did enjoy watching the games, just felt that people here are being overly positive. I don't really wanna be an ass either, but this is just what i felt after watching those games. Curious to see how Scarlett will do vs Artosis, but after watching these games I don't really think she has any chance to win that tbh.
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On August 14 2020 23:00 Kaolla wrote:
I don't really wanna be a party pooper, but since everybody is saying the play was so great etc. I only watched until Artosis' PC was starting have problems (prob first 3-4 games), but I was pretty disappointed by the lvl of play. I expected more of it tbh and I felt Cadenzie was just playing some somewhat poorly executed all-in strats, while Scarlett's control in early was not always great and both players in general made plenty of mistakes.
On top of that I also really felt like Scarlett had quite little game awareness and didn't realize how far ahead she was at times and instead of finishing the game or trying to move out, just played defensively while the game was already over. The game with the hydra/lurker drop rush by denzie and the one where denzie tried to hydra bust and then switched into muta with a non-existent economy come to mind.
Anyway, did enjoy watching the games, just felt that people here are being overly positive. I don't really wanna be an ass either, but this is just what i felt after watching those games. Curious to see how Scarlett will do vs Artosis, but after watching these games I don't really think she has any chance to win that tbh.
I'll take scarlett over Artosis. During the interview they discussed her planning for the series. She can watch endless Artosis vs protoss on each map and work out builds. This doesn't guarantee a sweep or anything but I just lean towards her because of her ability prep and Artosis' boiling rage for protoss
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On August 14 2020 23:00 Kaolla wrote:
I don't really wanna be a party pooper, but since everybody is saying the play was so great etc. I only watched until Artosis' PC was starting have problems (prob first 3-4 games), but I was pretty disappointed by the lvl of play. I expected more of it tbh and I felt Cadenzie was just playing some somewhat poorly executed all-in strats, while Scarlett's control in early was not always great and both players in general made plenty of mistakes.
On top of that I also really felt like Scarlett had quite little game awareness and didn't realize how far ahead she was at times and instead of finishing the game or trying to move out, just played defensively while the game was already over. The game with the hydra/lurker drop rush by denzie and the one where denzie tried to hydra bust and then switched into muta with a non-existent economy come to mind.
Anyway, did enjoy watching the games, just felt that people here are being overly positive. I don't really wanna be an ass either, but this is just what i felt after watching those games. Curious to see how Scarlett will do vs Artosis, but after watching these games I don't really think she has any chance to win that tbh.
I felt the same, wasnt overly impressed it was just a bunch of half hearted all ins that were pretty painful to watch imo.
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On August 14 2020 22:28 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2020 22:13 Cele wrote:On August 14 2020 21:19 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
At her rate of improvement, give it another month and she'll be best foreigner. Doubt that. She's certainly very good, but so are the best foreigners. We need a Scarlett vs Bonyth showmatch to find that out for sure. How good are today’s top foreign dawgs compared to the likes of IdrA and Ret who spent time in the Kespa house system? Just something I was pondering briefly, didn’t think it was worth opening up a whole new thread for it so sticking it in here. Totally different eras of course, Korea has opened up its previously hidden knowledge via streaming etc. A lot more access to information, plus of course those extra moons to get playing. Scarlett definitely looking in good shape, although I think some SC2 fans seem to be under the impression she’s only recently picked up the game. If that actually were the case she’d be a rare talent indeed, but I think that’s a misconception.
Thats actually a debated and controversial topic worth an own thread. But since i enjoy it, i will try to give a perspective in the matter:
In short, that question is impossible to answer. The evolution of buildorders, macro and general understanding if the game has developed and continues to do so since the time of idra, ret et al. [Up to 2009] that is makes no sense to compare vods and replays simply to find the higher level of play.
Logic dictates, that talent in, say 2008, was greater overall because the playerbase was greater overall. Thats just an easy estimation to make.
But next, you can argue that players like ret and Idra, if they would “time travel“ dircetly into a big foreigner tournament of today would fare badly. To explain my argument, i'd like to exaggerate:Boxer is a God of this game, a true bonwja. But if we look closely at the game from 2002, we're not very impressed if we judge it by modern standards. Back then, builorders were not as fine tuned as they are today and most importantly it wasnt quite established ye how important macro is.
So how do you compare? The Oldshool vs Newshool Koth hosted a couple of years ago had some of the “old elite“ play vs the best players of that time. Sziky basically made the old elite look like a bunch of C rank nobodies. Is it a fair comparison to but up the by far the best foreinger of the time up against the old elite, who had just practiced a couple of weeks, some only a few matches even, for a fun event? I guess not.
So, how do you compare? By relative success vs the korean progamers perhaps? Thats not possible either, because we can assume that the level of play has also changed after professional gaming with teams, teamhouses strict practice regimes etc were no more.
Korean pros often answer like this, when asked how skill compares today to back then: mechanics were better in the pro gaming days because the practice regiment was very strict, but todays progamers are way ahead in game understanding, meta, buildorders etc.
I believe, thats true in a broad scope for foreigners too. Competition back then was fiercer, because there were more tournaments to compete in and more players determined to it and dedicated to the dream of pro gaming.
Thats just my 5 cents, many people will see that different. As i said at the start, your question is quite interesting, but impossible to really answer.
Okay, sorry for the off topic folks!
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I really enjoyed this, and I love Nyoken and Artosis as commentators.
Thanks a lot for doing this, its so much fun!
When are scarlett and artosis playing? Really looking forward to that. Is the matcherino up?
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Northern Ireland26068 Posts
On August 15 2020 03:54 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2020 22:28 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2020 22:13 Cele wrote:On August 14 2020 21:19 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
At her rate of improvement, give it another month and she'll be best foreigner. Doubt that. She's certainly very good, but so are the best foreigners. We need a Scarlett vs Bonyth showmatch to find that out for sure. How good are today’s top foreign dawgs compared to the likes of IdrA and Ret who spent time in the Kespa house system? Just something I was pondering briefly, didn’t think it was worth opening up a whole new thread for it so sticking it in here. Totally different eras of course, Korea has opened up its previously hidden knowledge via streaming etc. A lot more access to information, plus of course those extra moons to get playing. Scarlett definitely looking in good shape, although I think some SC2 fans seem to be under the impression she’s only recently picked up the game. If that actually were the case she’d be a rare talent indeed, but I think that’s a misconception. Thats actually a debated and controversial topic worth an own thread. But since i enjoy it, i will try to give a perspective in the matter: In short, that question is impossible to answer. The evolution of buildorders, macro and general understanding if the game has developed and continues to do so since the time of idra, ret et al. [Up to 2009] that is makes no sense to compare vods and replays simply to find the higher level of play. Logic dictates, that talent in, say 2008, was greater overall because the playerbase was greater overall. Thats just an easy estimation to make. But next, you can argue that players like ret and Idra, if they would “time travel“ dircetly into a big foreigner tournament of today would fare badly. To explain my argument, i'd like to exaggerate: Boxer is a God of this game, a true bonwja. But if we look closely at the game from 2002, we're not very impressed if we judge it by modern standards. Back then, builorders were not as fine tuned as they are today and most importantly it wasnt quite established ye how important macro is. So how do you compare? The Oldshool vs Newshool Koth hosted a couple of years ago had some of the “old elite“ play vs the best players of that time. Sziky basically made the old elite look like a bunch of C rank nobodies. Is it a fair comparison to but up the by far the best foreinger of the time up against the old elite, who had just practiced a couple of weeks, some only a few matches even, for a fun event? I guess not. So, how do you compare? By relative success vs the korean progamers perhaps? Thats not possible either, because we can assume that the level of play has also changed after professional gaming with teams, teamhouses strict practice regimes etc were no more. Korean pros often answer like this, when asked how skill compares today to back then: mechanics were better in the pro gaming days because the practice regiment was very strict, but todays progamers are way ahead in game understanding, meta, buildorders etc. I believe, thats true in a broad scope for foreigners too. Competition back then was fiercer, because there were more tournaments to compete in and more players determined to it and dedicated to the dream of pro gaming. Thats just my 5 cents, many people will see that different. As i said at the start, your question is quite interesting, but impossible to really answer. Okay, sorry for the off topic folks!
Enjoyed reading your thoughts, most of that makes sense even if I am a total BW noob!
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On August 15 2020 17:57 Timebon3s wrote:
I really enjoyed this, and I love Nyoken and Artosis as commentators.
Thanks a lot for doing this, its so much fun!
When are scarlett and artosis playing? Really looking forward to that. Is the matcherino up?
https://matcherino.com/tournaments/33174/overview
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Artosis vs. Scarlett should have its own thread too
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Thanks for the link 
It would be nice with its own thread indeed so people are aware of it and able to contribute.
I’m on my phone now at a cabin otherwise I’d do it myself.
Will this be casted by Nyoke or someone?
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On August 15 2020 03:54 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2020 22:28 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 14 2020 22:13 Cele wrote:On August 14 2020 21:19 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
At her rate of improvement, give it another month and she'll be best foreigner. Doubt that. She's certainly very good, but so are the best foreigners. We need a Scarlett vs Bonyth showmatch to find that out for sure. How good are today’s top foreign dawgs compared to the likes of IdrA and Ret who spent time in the Kespa house system? Just something I was pondering briefly, didn’t think it was worth opening up a whole new thread for it so sticking it in here. Totally different eras of course, Korea has opened up its previously hidden knowledge via streaming etc. A lot more access to information, plus of course those extra moons to get playing. Scarlett definitely looking in good shape, although I think some SC2 fans seem to be under the impression she’s only recently picked up the game. If that actually were the case she’d be a rare talent indeed, but I think that’s a misconception. Thats actually a debated and controversial topic worth an own thread. But since i enjoy it, i will try to give a perspective in the matter: In short, that question is impossible to answer. The evolution of buildorders, macro and general understanding if the game has developed and continues to do so since the time of idra, ret et al. [Up to 2009] that is makes no sense to compare vods and replays simply to find the higher level of play. Logic dictates, that talent in, say 2008, was greater overall because the playerbase was greater overall. Thats just an easy estimation to make. But next, you can argue that players like ret and Idra, if they would “time travel“ dircetly into a big foreigner tournament of today would fare badly. To explain my argument, i'd like to exaggerate: Boxer is a God of this game, a true bonwja. But if we look closely at the game from 2002, we're not very impressed if we judge it by modern standards. Back then, builorders were not as fine tuned as they are today and most importantly it wasnt quite established ye how important macro is. So how do you compare? The Oldshool vs Newshool Koth hosted a couple of years ago had some of the “old elite“ play vs the best players of that time. Sziky basically made the old elite look like a bunch of C rank nobodies. Is it a fair comparison to but up the by far the best foreinger of the time up against the old elite, who had just practiced a couple of weeks, some only a few matches even, for a fun event? I guess not. So, how do you compare? By relative success vs the korean progamers perhaps? Thats not possible either, because we can assume that the level of play has also changed after professional gaming with teams, teamhouses strict practice regimes etc were no more. Korean pros often answer like this, when asked how skill compares today to back then: mechanics were better in the pro gaming days because the practice regiment was very strict, but todays progamers are way ahead in game understanding, meta, buildorders etc. I believe, thats true in a broad scope for foreigners too. Competition back then was fiercer, because there were more tournaments to compete in and more players determined to it and dedicated to the dream of pro gaming. Thats just my 5 cents, many people will see that different. As i said at the start, your question is quite interesting, but impossible to really answer. Okay, sorry for the off topic folks!
I think in short you can just say with the old strats they stand no chance, but since they are just that good if they would practise right now they'd still own pretty much anyone. Personally never been that impressed by Idra, but I think Ret is definitely a guy that would own the foreign scene if he would make a serious comeback. The guy is just that talented.
Boxer is from a different era though, he was good before apm and macro really mattered that much. I think it'd take much more effort for him to make a true comeback. Even if he would try really really hard it'd be near impossible to become a force to be reckoned with. I doubt anyone older has that motivation and the dedication to completely change their entire playstyle (which they have used for pretty much all of their career).
Nada is luckier in that way, he was always a more apm focussed guy and I could see him still being somewhat successful, but yea, he obviously doesnt have the dedication anymore.
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Artosis vs Scarlet? YES!!
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Artosis vs Scarlett sounds really neat, but bo5 is not enough. One of a kind showmatches should be bo7 at least. No need to play all games. First to 4 and that's it 
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love showmatches like this. I hope they do a rematch.
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EPT
