EPT
[ASL8] 3rd Place Match
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50123 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
My thoughts: Action v Rain Their match comes at a very interesting time for PvZ. Since the ZvP revolution that Jaedong authored starting with the infamous ZvP vs Bisu on bluestorm. For years, zerg has had a stable way to deal with any variant of Toss Fe. Not that Protoss couldn't win but Zerg theory had several comfortable middlegame paths. Then. This year, everything changed. Not 1 dominant Protoss, but a gaggle of them began to pick apart Zergs predictable greed and tech choices. The hive, compared to its history, have been getting stiff armed by Protoss players. Protoss, at least somewhat lead by Mini have been pushing every edge and at times just flat about abusing zergs predictability. And now ... now after nearly 18 years, Zerg have returned to the original approach to ZvP. Hydra as fast as possible and keep making them while you take the map. Things are a changing in ZvP. Not that the new build is an auto-win, it's not, but now for the first time since Jaedong and then Effort, we have Zergs building wild variants, abusing the darkness that hydra place protoss in and abusing the thread of hydra busts. Action is not the Queen of Blades or the King of Dogcatchers but he is a strong macro zerg, who is definitely up-to-date with the brand new field of opening theory that has arrived. And he choked so hard in his last match that he is definitely in mood to attempt a Rain crush. ... Rain. Rain is either the most overhyped (he's not) or the most slept on (he's not) protoss of our time. Everyone has pretty crappy opinions about him. Rain is a champion. Period. He has never had the best micro or macro of any protoss. Or the best builds. According to some he is bad at every matchup or just good pvp or blah blah blah. The fact is, this guy shows up to tournaments and wins. He is the 1 in 7 billion player who is actually only his best self in incredibly stressful environments. A god damn unicorn. But ... Rain. Rain choked hard against Flash. Not as hard as Action choked. But he definitely played below his best. Which is rare, because the dude normally becomes groot the second money is on the line. Normally, I would root for Zerg but expect the Champion to beat the non-champion. But ... Action played so sloppy last week, I have no emotional support for the guy. Just a really lackluster display of zerg, from someone who literately made a name for themselves as one of the few people who could play Extreme late game ZvT. His choices and control were regrettable and bad enough to not be forgettable. So, I think the current state of opening theory, gives Action a slight edge going into the series. I doubt Rain will be the Protoss to show us the 1-2-3 on the 9734 build. But the games that result from it are often scrappy and ugly and he has a much better shot at keeping composer. Lots of words for - this shit is a toss-up. | ||
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nikolaus8844
104 Posts
 really glad to see him using more lings.. why wouldn't u ?! | ||
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nikolaus8844
104 Posts
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maybe
255 Posts
props to action tho, seems like he cares more :D | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5221 Posts
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nikolaus8844
104 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
This is the player I know. | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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maybe
255 Posts
On August 25 2019 19:30 KamMoye wrote: Why was the other thread deleted? Should've been merged. the AP probably deleted it | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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nikolaus8844
104 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 25 2019 19:37 nikolaus8844 wrote: No, it was titled Losers Finals. But I agree it deserved to go I gave you a great response to your question!! | ||
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nikolaus8844
104 Posts
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[AS]Rattus
427 Posts
On August 25 2019 19:31 KobraKay wrote: Very nice game from Action. Right at the end Rain finally got the shuttles to drop the HT but it was too late. you mean on 3? i think those just went up there when the main army cleared the way. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
The second ling counter did more harm than good for Action I think. | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
He needed 5 sunks more to hold that. If you have 4 bases. You can spam sunkens vs a just getting a third toss. | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On August 25 2019 19:42 [AS]Rattus wrote: you mean on 3? i think those just went up there when the main army cleared the way. Two drops. One on 3 and one on the middle of the map 4´ish base. The shuttles were shown on camera ;-) | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 25 2019 19:54 KamMoye wrote: Tastosis mentioned during the cast last week going Lurkers isn't that great. Their logic made more sense to me than yours. Action goes lurkers and loses, so... A pro gamer did the same build I found on my own for this matchup on this map this week. I'm cool with my logic. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
This had multiple levels of back and forth. And there was no clear order win. Rains armys was stronger in one place. Action was spread thin and under defended. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
If he gets 16 hats I claim he's hacked my account ! | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
Spot on so far with those. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
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nikolaus8844
104 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On August 25 2019 20:31 nikolaus8844 wrote: But if you're Action... is your game-plan really to go toe to toe with Rain in a drawn-out macro game.. He's playing pretty damn well, but it's clear that Rain has the upper hand. Confidence (or the lack thereof) must be at play methinks. Why not? Action's macro is good enough. He has been manouvering is army well enough and I reckon that a proper dodge of those storms would leave Action in a good place for this match, after getting that much templar/reaver/archon. It would be hard but it was still going strong before the storms. | ||
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nikolaus8844
104 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
Looking for ward to finals, The best PvTer in the world vs. the best TvPer in the world, this is what I've always wanted | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On August 25 2019 20:45 imBLIND wrote: So much for 973 breaking PvZ? Rain and Snow basically rolled over Action and Sascri... Rain didnt roll over Action. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 25 2019 20:27 KamMoye wrote: AttackZerg, I don't know who you are but you sound like a noob. Don't care about your appeal to authority. Try some reason bro Hmmm Appeal to authority? You are the player taking insight from tasteless. They are entertainment. Not serious analysts. Artosis is decently strong terran. Been back 1 week for 5 years off mmr 1850-1927-1870 on my 3 accounts Feel free to get obliterated in a showmatch. After you are done getting gosu from entertainment casts. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
On August 25 2019 21:31 AttackZerg wrote: Hmmm Appeal to authority? You are the player taking insight from tasteless. They are entertainment. Not serious analysts. Artosis is decently strong terran. Been back 1 week for 5 years off mmr 1850-1927-1870 on my 3 accounts Feel free to get obliterated in a showmatch. After you are done getting gosu from entertainment casts. I would give Tasteless more credit; he was also among the top in the USA at a point if I'm not mistaken. Both of them are also much more in tune with the Korean strategies (since they live there). You may not agree with everything they say but that doesn't mean they don't have serious analysis. | ||
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hiro protagonist
1294 Posts
On August 25 2019 23:13 TaardadAiel wrote: Just stopping by to say that streamed grudge matches are a good thing if the opposing parties behave decently. You guys certainly do. Do the scene a favor and play a best-of series. Here here! Less talking, more grudge match! | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4231 Posts
On August 25 2019 21:31 AttackZerg wrote: Hmmm Appeal to authority? You are the player taking insight from tasteless. They are entertainment. Not serious analysts. Artosis is decently strong terran. Been back 1 week for 5 years off mmr 1850-1927-1870 on my 3 accounts Feel free to get obliterated in a showmatch. After you are done getting gosu from entertainment casts. @KamMoye the challenge has been set. Will you rise to the long tradition of grudge matches between TL members? | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
It would placate his inflated ego and be funny to the forum for a few days but at the end of the day it's nothing but a red herring. I don't rescind what I said, though--you do sound like a noob. I said *reason*, meaning *logic*, not appeal to authority. I don't worship at the idol of Tastosis; sometimes they make sense and sometimes they don't. I said their reason was far better than yours. So actually provide some logic or pipe down. Going, "pro player agrees with me" without displaying the logic that comes with it is the definition of the appeal to authority fallacy. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 26 2019 02:21 KamMoye wrote: No, my specialty is Super Smash Bros Melee, and I ruined my hands and had to retire. I am a sports bettor and poker player now. Hu4rollz? It would placate his inflated ego and be funny to the forum for a few days but at the end of the day it's nothing but a red herring. I don't rescind what I said, though--you do sound like a noob. I said *reason*, meaning *logic*, not appeal to authority. I don't worship at the idol of Tastosis; sometimes they make sense and sometimes they don't. I said their reason was far better than yours. So actually provide some logic or pipe down. Going, "pro player agrees with me" without displaying the logic that comes with it is the definition of the appeal to authority fallacy. They were wrong. In game 1 of action vs snow. The correct move was to stop making hydra and make lurker and defend. Not stream every hydra down a choke of endless storms. I don't owe you anything. I only offered to play you to make clear what was going on. I don't owe you answers because you are entertained. Punking a big mouth is fun. Playing you wouldn't have been. If you actually wanted an answer you wouldn't have written the way you did. You don't get to call on credibility and hide behind "not my game". Wanna know why their logic sounded so good? It is their job. I am not paid to entertain or educate. And I certainly don't dance for the lowest common denominator. My wrist has traveled light years and your the one with excuses. Nice dodge. Enjoy your big gulp and fedora. | ||
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Puosu
6985 Posts
edit: KamMoye | ||
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asel
Germany1599 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 25 2019 23:46 blabber wrote: I would give Tasteless more credit; he was also among the top in the USA at a point if I'm not mistaken. Both of them are also much more in tune with the Korean strategies (since they live there). You may not agree with everything they say but that doesn't mean they don't have serious analysis. They are great casters. They won me over years ago. I find them entertaining and talented at their jobs and Artosis when he gets deep, is fantastic. I love them. They do not provide indepth analysis as a regular part of their cast. Tasteless is making real effort to get even better. Living in korea with a wife and kids and fulltime job doesn't make you more in touch with korean play. It just makes makes you an expat. Speaking korean is more important then living in korea. Tasteless was never a top player. Full stop. His brother Day was top 3 zergs (Us) for a five or six year period. But we had a strong player base then. Froz normally cleaned up wcg, but we had a gaggle of good players. Artosis was always up their. The play by play announcers are allowed to be wrong and it is not a fault. It is how it goes doing live tv. If somebody is believing them to the point of blindy asserting their correctness (while failing to realize last week Action did what they thought and was brutalized from an advantageous position) then it is time for a reality check. They are entertainment not tutors. Tasteless provides context for casting not the fundamentals of pro play. The best word for word indepth caster is cadenzie followed by day, incontrol was also very good. Play by play in live sports is more important for a broad audience then indepth analysis. It is uber niche. Wtf guys.... do you think Tasteless was correct with his comment that shield upgrade effects regen? 20 years in. Do you think that is correct? | ||
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Nukid
United States240 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 25 2019 23:54 hiro protagonist wrote: Here here! Less talking, more grudge match! I called his bawk, bawk. I am down to play. Just because it would be funny. I promise to manner hat him, regardless of mu. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4137 Posts
I like Tasteless and he often provides insightful commentary, but he's made similar mistakes before. He also once claimed on a live stream that there would be an alert when a drone gets one-hit-killed by a DT. This is another basic mistake that an expert in BW should never make. I'm not condemning Tasteless with this, just saying he's a flawed human being, just like all of us. We all make mistakes, and generally speaking that's completely fine. We're a community of gamers, not scientists. | ||
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
On August 26 2019 06:49 AttackZerg wrote: Wtf guys.... do you think Tasteless was correct with his comment that shield upgrade effects regen? 20 years in. Do you think that is correct? well to be fair, I believe that is how the shield upgrade works in SC2. And he casts SC2 full time as well, so yeah, just a brain fart. He was pretty unsure of himself right after he said it too. There's been times where Artosis will ask about a pretty obscure BW unit interaction or factoid and Tasteless was right on point with the answer, too, so it goes both ways | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 26 2019 09:12 blabber wrote: well to be fair, I believe that is how the shield upgrade works in SC2. And he casts SC2 full time as well, so yeah, just a brain fart. He was pretty unsure of himself right after he said it too. There's been times where Artosis will ask about a pretty obscure BW unit interaction or factoid and Tasteless was right on point with the answer, too, so it goes both ways I never said they weren't smart guys or knowledgeable, quite the contrary, but they are in no way the final answer on broodwar. Remember, this started with some guy thinking "because tasteless said it and I believed it" your wrong. I'll put it like this... when Artosis correctly called the transition from 973 into 9734, I was impresssed. Rarely does the current current meta get brought up on stream. I am not upset Tasteless was wrong. Don't care. But he also doesn't get to be used as a defacto source on bw. Especially by somebody who has a handicap preventing them from settling a discussion as a player, rather then as a blaise troll. | ||
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ColdLava
Canada1673 Posts
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femtehjulet
17 Posts
On August 26 2019 11:29 ColdLava wrote: Anyone know why the finals is so far away from now? It's in 2 weeks lol wtf No its on sunday, right? | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2394 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Also think they said 2 hrs earlier but dont rely on that. Edit- one week from rain v action NOT one week from this post. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
The date and time are in the last frame. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4009 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 26 2019 18:00 AttackZerg wrote: Offical Finals Promo The date and time are in the last frame. Thats an amazing video <3 | ||
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Brainojack
Canada195 Posts
On August 26 2019 18:00 AttackZerg wrote: Offical Finals Promo The date and time are in the last frame. 489 days ago!!! seems, er, not that long ago | ||
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ColdLava
Canada1673 Posts
On August 26 2019 17:03 Turbovolver wrote: They announced on the stream it was next weekend, but when I checked TL calendar before that it was an extra week away for some reason. Think it is/was wrong on the calendar. Oh phew, thanks hehe | ||
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elKa-ThE-FeArEd
Sweden176 Posts
On August 26 2019 09:33 AttackZerg wrote: I never said they weren't smart guys or knowledgeable, quite the contrary, but they are in no way the final answer on broodwar. Remember, this started with some guy thinking "because tasteless said it and I believed it" your wrong. I'll put it like this... when Artosis correctly called the transition from 973 into 9734, I was impresssed. Rarely does the current current meta get brought up on stream. I am not upset Tasteless was wrong. Don't care. But he also doesn't get to be used as a defacto source on bw. Especially by somebody who has a handicap preventing them from settling a discussion as a player, rather then as a blaise troll. Well this is a blatant fact that shows that tasteless aint playing or have been playing for a long time and even if i enjoy Tastosis casting i just feel that he need to "know" more Artosis on the other hand knows his shit and is imo the best caster bw has | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On August 27 2019 16:43 elKa-ThE-FeArEd wrote: Well this is a blatant fact that shows that tasteless aint playing or have been playing for a long time and even if i enjoy Tastosis casting i just feel that he need to "know" more Artosis on the other hand knows his shit and is imo the best caster bw has Honestly, I feel Tasteless is better the worse the game is. I find him charming and clever. I think he does a great job using fresh language to describe things rather then just quote reel. Artosis going to Korea has been the most influential action ever taken on behalf of foreign bw. From his time at Estro until now he had contributed more then anyone else to this scene. I really wish we got the Artosis that sc2 gets. His breakdowns and indepth stuff are fantastic. Rotterdam and Maynarde are my favorite casters in that sport but Artosis is the goat of sc2 analysis. Even when I disagree with his conclusion, the journey is alway educational. Watched him and rapid do Solar v Cure yesterday. I got so jealous bw doesn't have that. Day9 was our guy who did that and we can't afford him 8) | ||
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
On August 26 2019 09:33 AttackZerg wrote: I never said they weren't smart guys or knowledgeable, quite the contrary, but they are in no way the final answer on broodwar. Remember, this started with some guy thinking "because tasteless said it and I believed it" your wrong. I'll put it like this... when Artosis correctly called the transition from 973 into 9734, I was impresssed. Rarely does the current current meta get brought up on stream. I am not upset Tasteless was wrong. Don't care. But he also doesn't get to be used as a defacto source on bw. Especially by somebody who has a handicap preventing them from settling a discussion as a player, rather then as a blaise troll. Strawman much? Yeesh, you sound like you really hate your life. You don't need to wildly stretch the truth in order to make yourself look better. Do you live in bumfuck nowhere or something? What is wrong with you? I hate to break it to you, but BW outside of Korea is completely irrelevant. Matter of fact, BW outside of the top 30 players in the world is all but completely irrelevant. Being a mediocre foreign player in a stale scene in a 20-year-old game doesn't give you any authority. Seriously dude, calm down. You are not that brolic. Don't say anything online you wouldn't say to a man's face. Real talk. For the record, I live in beautiful sunny Southern California, have a lovely life with a bright future, and believe you must be below the age of 25. If not, you need to grow up, and fast. I would bet money you would never talk this way to me, or anyone else, in real life. So chill out. User was warned for this post. | ||
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Ziggy
South Korea2105 Posts
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