|
On September 19 2017 22:36 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2017 21:53 EsportsJohn wrote:On September 19 2017 21:32 tanngard wrote:On September 19 2017 21:01 TT1 wrote:On September 19 2017 21:00 tanngard wrote:On September 19 2017 20:57 ortseam wrote:On September 19 2017 20:52 TT1 wrote:
initial probe has to stay in z's main, at the very least u need a probe out on the map to scout what theyre making out of their hatches You can't scout it with probe, zerg gets speed first against gate expand So what was Snows plan then? To hope Hero did not go hydra busts lol? What is the strength of going gate opening? zerg has to chase p's zeals with his lings which usually gives p the opportunity to sneak a probe in z's main for a rescout (assuming p's probe left z's main), which he didnt do. Thank you. This is what i thought too, but that leaves me perplexed as to why Snow did not immediately send a second probe when his initial one died and when his zealots was keeping the zerglings busy at the ramp. Protoss players have been failing to scout a lot over the last few months, not sure why. This was an ongoing thing during the last ASL too. Shine was very happy this was the case! You'd like to think it has more to do with Z denying scouting than P being lazy, but unfortunately its hard to tell. They have all the apm in the world to try and sneak in probes at any opportunity considering the real threat of dying no matter how good you are Theres really nothing complex about this: People fail to scout because they want to cut corners and make a few extra bucks, the same reason protoss players often open with only one cannon rather than two, even though it exposes them to risk. You thread the needle so you can win games, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesnt, sometimes you play safe anyway. He gambled and lost.
|
On September 20 2017 02:34 sertas wrote:
its actually the number one thing i hate about bw is the stupid hydra busts that keep killing protoss all the time all these years it just doesnt end
Well if you played zerg you'd complain about storm so. There still are BO losses in BW, tho they're mostly mitigated by having more information.
On September 20 2017 09:28 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2017 09:11 FlaShFTW wrote:On September 20 2017 07:19 Qikz wrote:On September 20 2017 02:41 r33k wrote:On September 20 2017 00:43 LaStScan wrote:
Just came back from work.
I feel like Snow is more a proleague type player than individual competition.
He's super amazing in PvP and PvT(I really can't win his PvT. Maybe 1/10 or 15).
I hope Snow can overcome his PvZ one day and do well for the future tournaments. There's this quote about him from Coach Cho that's he'll never be able to shake off about him being the greatest talent he's discovered since Xellos. The Dreamleagues that prompted that judgement were the old ones where 85% of the player pools were terrans, half of them using the ID Mong and Snow was just feeding on them. Coach Cho and CJ were always proleague focused too, Movie was effectively a HBR bot and SKyHigh has more TvTs in the KEspA era than the other two matchups combined. It's also very possible that Snow's development as a player was cut midway by the Hite merger and by the SC2 proleague bullshit. But you don't make your PvT debut shitting on Flash if you don't have something in the tank. Even Upmagic had amazing TvT to watch. And then he almost lost to tossgirl lol UpMagic was probably one of the most disportionately talented terran players to have ever played the game. His strategical prowess was off the charts, but his actual fundamentals compared to the other top terran players of his time was severely lacking. Certainly one of the most interesting characters the game has had, in my opinion. He does boast a superior head-to-head record versus Flash, by a score of three to one. The only terran in history that can claim that trivia.
The Sin Heuiseung was my favorite terran player to watch. I started watching pro StarCraft right after the peak of the Ma Jaeyoon, so that one doesn't sting as much, but I really wish UpMaGiC was paid more or something so he didn't have to resort to helping Blizz destroy StarCraft 
Really wish he had stayed straight and were still around. On the one hand, they all did irreparable damage, but on the other, Jon Jones can get high, go out and brutally assault pregnant women and then flee the scene, and then get a championship match right after, win that match, and then get caught for the fifth time with bull steroids in his system, and the UFC loses little credibility. I guess it's just the different cultures. O well
|
On September 20 2017 11:41 Ancestral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2017 02:34 sertas wrote:
its actually the number one thing i hate about bw is the stupid hydra busts that keep killing protoss all the time all these years it just doesnt end Well if you played zerg you'd complain about storm so. There still are BO losses in BW, tho they're mostly mitigated by having more information. Show nested quote +On September 20 2017 09:28 Letmelose wrote:On September 20 2017 09:11 FlaShFTW wrote:On September 20 2017 07:19 Qikz wrote:On September 20 2017 02:41 r33k wrote:On September 20 2017 00:43 LaStScan wrote:
Just came back from work.
I feel like Snow is more a proleague type player than individual competition.
He's super amazing in PvP and PvT(I really can't win his PvT. Maybe 1/10 or 15).
I hope Snow can overcome his PvZ one day and do well for the future tournaments. There's this quote about him from Coach Cho that's he'll never be able to shake off about him being the greatest talent he's discovered since Xellos. The Dreamleagues that prompted that judgement were the old ones where 85% of the player pools were terrans, half of them using the ID Mong and Snow was just feeding on them. Coach Cho and CJ were always proleague focused too, Movie was effectively a HBR bot and SKyHigh has more TvTs in the KEspA era than the other two matchups combined. It's also very possible that Snow's development as a player was cut midway by the Hite merger and by the SC2 proleague bullshit. But you don't make your PvT debut shitting on Flash if you don't have something in the tank. Even Upmagic had amazing TvT to watch. And then he almost lost to tossgirl lol UpMagic was probably one of the most disportionately talented terran players to have ever played the game. His strategical prowess was off the charts, but his actual fundamentals compared to the other top terran players of his time was severely lacking. Certainly one of the most interesting characters the game has had, in my opinion. He does boast a superior head-to-head record versus Flash, by a score of three to one. The only terran in history that can claim that trivia. The Sin Heuiseung was my favorite terran player to watch. I started watching pro StarCraft right after the peak of the Ma Jaeyoon, so that one doesn't sting as much, but I really wish UpMaGiC was paid more or something so he didn't have to resort to helping Blizz destroy StarCraft Really wish he had stayed straight and were still around. On the one hand, they all did irreparable damage, but on the other, Jon Jones can get high, go out and brutally assault pregnant women and then flee the scene, and then get a championship match right after, win that match, and then get caught for the fifth time with bull steroids in his system, and the UFC loses little credibility. I guess it's just the different cultures. O well
sAviOr and UpMaGiC are totally different cases. sAviOr was actively polluting the scene with his far reaching influence (pressuring others around him to take part in match-fixing), whereas UpMaGiC was simply made to take part in the illegal betting business by betting on his own games. If I remember right, he wasn't trying to match-fix, per se, but thought he could make a some extra money (somewhat understandable given how poorly funded he was by Estro) on the side by betting on his own matches where he wasn't given good odds to win. Unless I'm severely mistaken, I think his harsh punishment could be seen as a collateral damage, of a fragile scene trying desperately to be taken seriously.
Professional Brood War was loved by many, but there wasn't a lot of people who were strong enough to protect it. Every hiccup, no matter how trivial, was a major set back that blew away a lot of painstaking progress that was built over many years. Match fixing and illegal betting shortened the life-span of the scene by a significant amount, and after everything was dealt with (with over the top punishments for unfortunate cases like UpMaGiC) the professional scene was no longer seen as the cost-effective method of reaching the Korean youth by the corporations, which lead to even more financial constraints than before. Coupled with the added demands of Blizzard for their intellectual rights, and the hefty legal battles that followed afterwards, the professional Brood War scene was forced to ditch everything that had been built up towards that point.
With the professional Brood War scene tainted by the match fixing scandals that was first exposed in April 2010, and both Ongamenet and MBC Game being sued by Blizzard in November 2010, competitive Brood War as a media content took a huge hit in terms of branding. The argument against the scene by those who perceived it as being full of harmful content for the modern youth, filled with criminal activies, and essentially built up on the illegal use of intellectual property was now stronger than ever. Compare the number of domestic individual leagues hosted in 2010, and in 2011. The impact was immediate, and devastating. After less than two years, the most watched content by young Korean males (not just gaming, but for pretty much any content) was gone from television forever, with League of Legends taking its place.
Now those young Korean males have grown up, and have jobs now. Brood War is no longer the most popular content anymore, not even amongst spectator e-Sports, but the people who used to be merely pawns in all the overwhelming circumstances of the past, now have the option to support their past heroes on a streaming platform. I'm okay with repaying on my favourite heroes from the past financially, and I don't blame UpMaGiC for what he did. However, I'm not sure if I would be willing to spend my wages supporting his streaming career. I'm sure it would be the same for a lot of other Korean viewers too, and that's the audience he'll have to persuade if he wants to return (not that he wants to). I don't think streamers can make a decent living without the support of the Korean fan base.
|
Thanks for the extra details. I know Ma Jaeyun was the worst but I didn't know many details specifically about the others.
From the standpoint of pure human empathy, it's easy to at least understand, if not justify, Sin Heuiseung's actions given his comparatively low salary history, high talent, and the fact that he made his living playing this game.
I put the time in to make an account so I can donate on Afreeca, but I'm sure very few Westerners do, so I agree it's a bare fact that streamers make a living based on their Korean audience.
I'd definitely watch him play, and in fact I'll admit I'd probably give him some money as long as he was sufficiently contrite. Ma Jaeyun seems, at least from what I have read, to not be nearly sorry enough. And to be realistic, being extremely sorry DOES matter and make a difference.
I don't know if you followed the analogy or if you follow fighting at all, but the man I mentioned, Jon Jones, is essentially the most talented player in the history of MMA/UFC. The fact that that he is literally on his fourth or fifth mistake show's that it's just his personality, and he is never going to change.
In Heuiseung's case, given the accessible rationale, I personally, not that my opinion matters in particular, would accept his return if he simply acknowledged that he participated in seriously damaging behavior, was a stupid young kid, and shamefully did it all for a quick buck.
Unfortunately, as you noted, there's no evidence he wants to come back anyway.
|
I've spoken in favor of match-fixing multiple times over the years, and given that the scandal was 7 years ago almost everything's been said already. SAviOr has quoted wage disparity as one of the driving factors that led to him taking a leadership role in the racket (with Hwasin being his equal, but everybody's so thirsty for blood they just jump onto the bigger name), and although my numbers may be off he cited his bonuses for a single match win being equal to a B-Teamer's wages for a year.
That's fucking insane, especially if you consider that the guilty parties were all teenagers and fresh 20 year-olds with no financial consultancy you can see how the cheating route would seem like the only option in sight for the players to seek adequate compensation for their time. To give a further idea of the financial illiteracy of some other top names from the older generation Yellow's been in the mob for literally fucking ever and Nada lost all his money gambling in the "stock market".
Connections to criminal life are something very common for Koreans who quickly come across with large sums of money, just look at their reputation all over asia for a point of reference.
Whether the timing of the scandal being so close to the blizzard lawsuit breaking KeSPA's back was a coincidence is up for debate and we don't have any definitive information to call, however the same can be said about lots of storylines like Flash's TvT streak. Korean news during the matchfixing investigation mentioned KeSPA having developed advanced methods to detect cheating due to similiar a scenario happening in the past, which nobody had ever heard of. The peak of Flash's legacy got a very large push from the map pool used in the final sanctioned years, and with the scene on average being so balanced there might not have been another bonjwa, a figure that traditionally has been very good for marketing.
|
On September 20 2017 18:00 r33k wrote:
I've spoken in favor of match-fixing multiple times over the years, and given that the scandal was 7 years ago almost everything's been said already. SAviOr has quoted wage disparity as one of the driving factors that led to him taking a leadership role in the racket (with Hwasin being his equal, but everybody's so thirsty for blood they just jump onto the bigger name), and although my numbers may be off he cited his bonuses for a single match win being equal to a B-Teamer's wages for a year.
That's fucking insane, especially if you consider that the guilty parties were all teenagers and fresh 20 year-olds with no financial consultancy you can see how the cheating route would seem like the only option in sight for the players to seek adequate compensation for their time. To give a further idea of the financial illiteracy of some other top names from the older generation Yellow's been in the mob for literally fucking ever and Nada lost all his money gambling in the "stock market".
Connections to criminal life are something very common for Koreans who quickly come across with large sums of money, just look at their reputation all over asia for a point of reference.
Whether the timing of the scandal being so close to the blizzard lawsuit breaking KeSPA's back was a coincidence is up for debate and we don't have any definitive information to call, however the same can be said about lots of storylines like Flash's TvT streak. Korean news during the matchfixing investigation mentioned KeSPA having developed advanced methods to detect cheating due to similiar a scenario happening in the past, which nobody had ever heard of. The peak of Flash's legacy got a very large push from the map pool used in the final sanctioned years, and with the scene on average being so balanced there might not have been another bonjwa, a figure that traditionally has been very good for marketing.
It was Justin, the vile piece of shit, that who played the ring leader role alongside sAviOr, not Hwasin. Hwasin was one of the professional gamers who were coerced into match-fixing by sAviOr. He was first approached by sAviOr online in December 2009. sAviOr said he was already into the match-fixing business, and offered Hwasin ₩3,000,000 to lose his up coming game. He paid Hwasin ₩3,000,000 in person, probably getting a cut for introducing him to match-fixing. For example, sAviOr lured DArKeLf into match-fixing by offering ₩5,000,000, but ended up only giving him ₩2,000,000, and DArKeLf was too timid to ask about the rest of his ₩3,000,000 that was promised.
sAviOr was the biggest driving force behind the match-fixing scandal next to Justin. It doesn't matter whether you personally forgave him. Unless you are a millionaire and want to personally hire sAviOr as your Brood War fix, good luck finding him streaming Brood War as a content because you're in the minority here.
sAviOr was the post-BoxeR everybody wanted. The adulation he got, and the special treatment he got was beyond what most professional players could ever imagine. Plenty of players have been fucked over worse financially (like you said, they were uneducated kids and most were treated like slaves), but most had enough integrity to not ruin their own legacy, and even worse, not ruin the careers of their fellow teammates and friends from other teams.
sAviOr was a sociopath with unworldly talent. Any teammate of his would tell you so. I could fill the rest of this page outlining the flaws in his character, but I won't. If you want to support him, don't do it on this page making him out to be a victim. sAviOr knew exactly what he was doing, and was organized about it. Dolts like DArKeLf would be more fitting examples of an idiot who did the wrong thing without thinking much about it. If you really are that head over heels for sAviOr, I would suggest aiding him financially, because I'll be damned if I had to do it for your viewing pleasure. He's good at sniffing around for money, so if you have some way to arrange a mutually beneficial arrangement, I'm sure he'll be on his way.
|
I get that you enjoy being angry but personally I value adequate wage distribution higher than allegedly fair and ethical competition for the long term health of an industry.
As I watch pro games now I always miss the quality that the teams' practice regimen provided, but it didn't take long for me to come to terms with the healthier lifestyle of self-management over the exploitation of the young.
And KeSPA are the only ones to blame for the top star system, not the players. sAviOr specifically was never an attention seeker, and neither were Bisu, Jaedong or Flash after him. KeSPA turned them into stars rather than their results, and that's the reason why players now have to climb insurmountable mountains to reach their level of popularity.
|
|
|
On September 20 2017 19:28 r33k wrote:
I get that you enjoy being angry but personally I value adequate wage distribution higher than allegedly fair and ethical competition for the long term health of an industry.
As I watch pro games now I always miss the quality that the teams' practice regimen provided, but it didn't take long for me to come to terms with the healthier lifestyle of self-management over the exploitation of the young.
And KeSPA are the only ones to blame for the top star system, not the players. sAviOr specifically was never an attention seeker, and neither were Bisu, Jaedong or Flash after him. KeSPA turned them into stars rather than their results, and that's the reason why players now have to climb insurmountable mountains to reach their level of popularity.
If you didn't notice, I have immense hatred towards those who brought down professional Brood War for their own personal greed, as flawed, and problematic as the scene was. So if you are going to trivialize things, or post the wrong facts to push your own agenda, chances are I'm going to be there to correct it.
It's easy to pick holes at something, and pretend to have the solution for something better. There is nothing you said so far that absolved sAviOr from his actions, certainly not to the extent where it makes sense for people pay out of their pockets to grant your wishes.
If you want to support sAviOr, do it yourself. Or get your facts straight (because people will be there to correct it), and make your case for him more persuasive, because right now your words are hardly going to convince anyone empty their wallets to fulfill your personal fantasy of seeing sAviOr back.
|
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On September 20 2017 09:28 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2017 09:11 FlaShFTW wrote:On September 20 2017 07:19 Qikz wrote:On September 20 2017 02:41 r33k wrote:On September 20 2017 00:43 LaStScan wrote:
Just came back from work.
I feel like Snow is more a proleague type player than individual competition.
He's super amazing in PvP and PvT(I really can't win his PvT. Maybe 1/10 or 15).
I hope Snow can overcome his PvZ one day and do well for the future tournaments. There's this quote about him from Coach Cho that's he'll never be able to shake off about him being the greatest talent he's discovered since Xellos. The Dreamleagues that prompted that judgement were the old ones where 85% of the player pools were terrans, half of them using the ID Mong and Snow was just feeding on them. Coach Cho and CJ were always proleague focused too, Movie was effectively a HBR bot and SKyHigh has more TvTs in the KEspA era than the other two matchups combined. It's also very possible that Snow's development as a player was cut midway by the Hite merger and by the SC2 proleague bullshit. But you don't make your PvT debut shitting on Flash if you don't have something in the tank. Even Upmagic had amazing TvT to watch. And then he almost lost to tossgirl lol UpMagic was probably one of the most disportionately talented terran players to have ever played the game. His strategical prowess was off the charts, but his actual fundamentals compared to the other top terran players of his time was severely lacking. Certainly one of the most interesting characters the game has had, in my opinion. He does boast a superior head-to-head record versus Flash, by a score of three to one. The only terran in history that can claim that trivia.
Wow, I had no idea about that final stat.
|
It's good to be back after a few years and still find people here talking about the same stuff as before.
|
ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
|
On September 21 2017 00:39 BLinD-RawR wrote:
you're alive!!
Yeah ^^
I was chatting with a guy at work yesterday abt programing, so I decided to login for old times sake.
|
Japan11286 Posts
|
On September 21 2017 00:23 Ryo wrote:
It's good to be back after a few years and still find people here talking about the same stuff as before.
Well in my case and probably lots of others, it's mostly because I'm an SC:R bandwaggoner after playing Brood War since near release (tho not knowing about KR until ~2006) until the pro BW scene ended, so my last memories are the end of the pro scene, since I had started playing SC2 but decided I wasn't into Atari 2600 ET clones.
So I lived a long and dark period where I though BW was dead and ET 2 just wasn't fun.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
