EPT[Flash and Last trade evenly]
> Wow, what an amazing play by Flash! How can Last ever recover!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!
Shoot me.
[ASL3] Flash vs Last - Page 10
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Entertaining
Canada793 Posts
[Flash and Last trade evenly] > Wow, what an amazing play by Flash! How can Last ever recover!?!?!??!?!?!?!?! Shoot me. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On May 24 2017 05:01 Dazed_Spy wrote: Flash sort of was in god mode even in late 08, he was just playing an insane amount of games. I remember him looking constantly stressed and tired around the time im talking about. And yeah it wasnt actually 80%, but it was pretty often. His series against Jaedong in the gom classic, I think he went 14 cc three times in a row and went 0-3. If he didnt it was at least twice in a row, and this was back to back after losing in PL doing 14cc quite a few times. I watched a looot of bw in highschool, thats how.  While you're right that he did 14CC twice against GGPlay, I don't think that had much to do with the "Flash always 14CC" meme. That was his debut season after all, and 14CC is basically a cheese. If anything that should have counted toward the "Flash cheeser" meme but people tend to view all-ins and strategic builds (like the infamous Bisu Monty Hall game) as cheese, not econ. I think ForGG was the only major series where he actually got 14CC'd out of the series. In other situations, it just felt extra notable because he was a top player but not performing in individual leagues and people were frustrated, using the logic that "if you're a top player play a normal build and still win", which sort of misses the point of how you become a top player. I also don't think he went 14CC that much against Jaedong in GOM? Even if he did, it was Jaedong going 2 Hatch Muta that killed him, not 9 pool. If anything, 14CC should have helped him, but he wasn't prepared for the 2 Hatch Muta timings. It's not like 2 Hatch Muta beats 14CC when played right. In ZvT, nothing beats 14CC as a build order except 9 pool or earlier. Narratives around Flash always get amplified because he's so good, and plays so many significant games. The thing is, Terrans should go 14CC once in awhile. It's a massive advantage when it works, and it has the meta effect of making Zergs guess 9 pool sometimes, which, when Zerg 9 pools against standard Terran, that's almost as good as going 14CC against 12 Hatch. Whether or not Flash "overdid" it is debatable and results biased thinking. Exaggerated claims like "80% 14CC" are just ridiculous. It's funny too when people get over-critical because someone lost a few straight rock paper scissors. Brood War is full of small gambles - that's part of the game. Like Flash vs Last in ASL1, where Last was exploiting Flash's forward Barracks. It's not like Flash didn't notice - he decided to gamble that Last wouldn't keep trying to hard counter it, because it's quite expensive for Terran to sent out an SCV to try to do that so early. Last won that mind game, but to say he "obviously shouldn't have kept doing that" is convenient hindsight bias. It's like when Protoss makes 1 less Cannon and loses and people are like "why don't you always make 2 Cannons" as if that doesn't have its own meta-implications. Some builds just look bad when you lose with them, but that doesn't make them bad in the long run. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On May 24 2017 06:46 Barneyk wrote: Oh, I must be remember it wrong then. But there were other important games around that time when he went 14cc in similar fashion and lost because of it. Right? Sure, he lost a handful of Proleague games going 14CC as well. But I think it was "Flash losing" followed by a narrative being constructed as much as anything. Terrans get countered with 14CC all the time but no one remembers if it's not Flash. In 2009, the narrative was "Flash is overrated" because he wasn't going deep in leagues, and every time he lost with 14CC people were like "it's just like that ForGG series from 2008". No one counted the games Flash won when he 14CC'd. People would say stuff like "if Flash is so good shouldn't he win playing straight up?". Maybe some games he could've played safer, but Flash's calling card his entire career was to maximize econ and rely on defense, and you don't get there without pushing the limits too far sometimes. In 2010 and beyond, if Flash lost any game it was notable, so of course if he lost due to 14CC getting blind countered, people would be like "why did he do that when he's Flash? He doesn't need to do that". Again, this ignores how he got a lot of build order advantages by people hoping to blind counter his 14CC. An example would be the MSL series against MVP when he basically mind fucked MVP 3 straight games due to MVP thinking Flash was likely to play safe and Flash center Rax-ing repeatedly. No one ever talks about stuff like that though (other than in remembrance of Broodwar MVP) because when Flash wins it's not notable. If I would criticize one build in Flash's later career for being too obvious, I'd pick game 4 of the OSL finals against Effort where he BBS'd. I think he should have BBS'd in game 3 to just end it (and it probably would have worked), but it was really transparent he would try it in game 4 because of the momentum. Lo and behold, Effort scouted center with his initial Overlord and that basically handed him game 4, taking a 2-0 to 2-2 and we all know what happened in game 5. | ||
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Vivi57
United States6599 Posts
On May 24 2017 06:00 FlaShFTW wrote: Afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2 definitely come check us out! Is there any way those vods can be uploaded to youtube? Afreeca vods lag and we are beyond the point where watching broodwar at 3am is a thing we can do regularly. Flash's preparation was beautiful. Seeing him take out last faster than last took him out in season 1 was wonderful. | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1702 Posts
On May 24 2017 07:21 Entertaining wrote: I just want to say that this was some of the most bias, garbage commentating I've ever heard and would kill for different commentators. If someone else wants to cast these games, you've got me as a viewer. Hell, I'm sure you'd have a lot of viewers. [Flash and Last trade evenly] > Wow, what an amazing play by Flash! How can Last ever recover!?!?!??!?!?!?!?! Shoot me. who the fuck complains of tastosis | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1711 Posts
edit: very refreshing to see flash play like that (taking the fight to the opponent); he usually only shows that kind of play in the finals | ||
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ldv
United States103 Posts
everyone that likes commentators who have actually watched the game for the last few years? | ||
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Vivi57
United States6599 Posts
Last time we tried to watch tastosis, they weren't even announcing the build orders. If we are going to listen to english commentary, we expect to be able to figure out who came ahead in the opening while mostly only listening to the audio. If we wanted to have to watch the video to figure out how many hatcheries went down before the pool, we are better off watching the korean commentators. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4139 Posts
On May 24 2017 01:19 juvenal wrote: I actually never realised that. Flash truly was a child prodigy when he first came into the scene. Wasn't he like 14 when he cheesed Bisu out of the OSL? Man time flies. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10232 Posts
On May 24 2017 10:23 Vivi57 wrote: Last time we tried to watch tastosis, they weren't even announcing the build orders. If we are going to listen to english commentary, we expect to be able to figure out who came ahead in the opening while mostly only listening to the audio. If we wanted to have to watch the video to figure out how many hatcheries went down before the pool, we are better off watching the korean commentators. Try my stream with EsportsJohn! afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2 | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On May 24 2017 01:09 L1ghtning wrote: It's weird to hear Last being called a robot when he's facing Flash. Calling Flash a robot/cyborg was a running joke back in the day. His eye twitching. His flawless execution. He was even called the Terminator. But maybe this was only a western thing. And why do Tastosis insist that Last is much younger than Flash, when he's like 4 months younger only? I feel like a old BW fan for the first time ever. I think the idea with the Alphago nickname isn't just the robotic aspect of it. Alphago is a learning algorithm. It improves as it plays itself over and over and has become just straight up better than any human at all stages of the game. It's a good nickname since Flash is God and Alphago hasn't reached diety status yet, but can beat all normal humans. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On May 24 2017 10:23 Vivi57 wrote: Last time we tried to watch tastosis, they weren't even announcing the build orders. If we are going to listen to english commentary, we expect to be able to figure out who came ahead in the opening while mostly only listening to the audio. If we wanted to have to watch the video to figure out how many hatcheries went down before the pool, we are better off watching the korean commentators. It's not a podcast. They are probably operating under the assumption that people are going to actually watch the game they are casting | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10232 Posts
On May 24 2017 17:51 BlackJack wrote: It's not a podcast. They are probably operating under the assumption that people are going to actually watch the game they are casting you do realize theres something called a play-by-play caster right? it helps the audience focus on the specific images they are seeing on their screens. its like when basketball casters pull up a slowmo and literally, its in slowmo, and they're still explaining the play and action play-by-play. | ||
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mdb
Bulgaria4059 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17731 Posts
On May 24 2017 16:59 neobowman wrote: I think the idea with the Alphago nickname isn't just the robotic aspect of it. Alphago is a learning algorithm. It improves as it plays itself over and over and has become just straight up better than any human at all stages of the game. It's a good nickname since Flash is God and Alphago hasn't reached diety status yet, but can beat all normal humans. Im pretty sure the ppl who called Last by the nickname never even heard of a learning algorithm so I think the name was given just for the robotic aspect. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
There's a lot more to commentating than just saying/knowing what's going on, it's about being entertaining too and they have that down pat | ||
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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Epithet
United States840 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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