[ASL3] Flash vs Last

On May 23 2017 19:04 EsportsJohn wrote:
LOL this is my fault. I'll update the OP after the first match.

On May 23 2017 19:06 Piste wrote:
only russian stream link on "Live events"

On May 23 2017 19:33 BigFan wrote:
I think last should've considered a couple more turrets in his main. He saw the dropships escape unharmed from his main, why not add some overtime. Looked like for a while that last would stabilize but that wraith+main drop into third attack was too much to handle.

On May 23 2017 19:38 reincremate wrote:

I won't pretend to know much about TvT, but they were both pushing hard into the middle of the map with what few units they had that early in the game, so perhaps Last figured a few more turrets would mean not having enough units for the big fights in the middle.

On May 23 2017 19:39 r.Evo wrote:
FLASH IS DRINKING STARBUCKS COFFEE OVER POCARI SWEAT WHAT IS THIS MADNESS

On May 23 2017 19:42 Terrorbladder wrote:
sold out/found a better brew to fuel his machine

On May 23 2017 19:39 Zariel wrote:
WTF Flash is drinking milk tea / ice coffee???

On May 23 2017 20:01 vndestiny wrote:
Last has become sloppy.

On May 23 2017 20:07 thezanursic wrote:
Flash vs Terran is an Overpowered match up.

Nerf Flash. I think Flash should start every game with 2 SCVs to make it fair next season

On May 23 2017 19:04 TT1 wrote:
3-2 last

ez

quality op

On May 23 2017 19:55 Warfie wrote:
All according to my plan to actually study today

On May 23 2017 20:09 gngfn wrote:

Typical SC2 fan attitude. We can fix Flash imba with map redesigns. Just make Flash start without gas in his main.

On May 23 2017 20:09 gngfn wrote:

Typical SC2 fan attitude. We can fix Flash imba with map redesigns. Just make Flash start without gas in his main.

On May 23 2017 20:12 shabby wrote:
Bisu vs Shine is gonna be so epic

On May 23 2017 20:14 M2 wrote:

hope bisu takes it, coz it will most like leads to way better finals

On May 23 2017 20:19 njoe wrote:
Larva knows he'll get a lot of practice in with Flag in the days ahead. Not sure he can emulate Soulkey's more subtle play, but he'll put Flash through the grinder for sure. Hopefully they'll stream a fair bit of it.

On May 23 2017 20:10 hitthat wrote:


XD

On May 23 2017 20:16 TT1 wrote:
its ok i'll make it back with bisu vs shine, theres no way bisu can lose right?

On May 23 2017 22:09 thezanursic wrote:

43 People actually voted for Last, wow. That's more surprising than the result.

On May 23 2017 22:40 d(O.o)a wrote:
What if Last bet against himself to take TT1's money and would've 3-0'd flash if he was trying

On May 23 2017 20:36 CrayonPopChoa wrote:
Flash never gets enough credit for his preparation, I remember in pro league he would go standard 90% of his games but then in the individual leagues when it got down to series, he would always do some unique builds uve never seen from him, especially against Jaedong.

On May 24 2017 01:09 L1ghtning wrote:
And why do Tastosis insist that Last is much younger than Flash, when he's like 4 months younger only?

On May 24 2017 01:09 L1ghtning wrote:
It's weird to hear Last being called a robot when he's facing Flash. Calling Flash a robot/cyborg was a running joke back in the day. His eye twitching. His flawless execution. He was even called the Terminator. But maybe this was only a western thing.

And why do Tastosis insist that Last is much younger than Flash, when he's like 4 months younger only?

I feel like a old BW fan for the first time ever.

On May 24 2017 00:27 Barneyk wrote:


Probably because he seems to be so inconsistent with his preparation.

In how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14cc which was read and expected by his opponents?

In ASL1 he always kept building a forward barracks in the league games as well as on his stream and Last was prepared for it and shut it down and got an easy and big advantage.

In ASL2 and here in ASL3 he seemed to have learned his lesson from ASL1 and he is looking like a fucking mind reader in some games.

These games where really good and it did feel a little bit lackluster that they were so one-sided and fast but Last didn't make any simple major mistakes, he was just outsmarted, outplayed and outflashed.

It can be easy to overlook how well prepared Flash is at times because at other times he isn't I guess.

On May 23 2017 22:09 thezanursic wrote:

43 People actually voted for Last, wow. That's more surprising than the result.

On May 24 2017 01:22 Peeano wrote:

If you want an English stream please try FlashFTW and EsportsJohn next time. Tastosis hasn't kept up with BW at all and neither Tasteless or Artosis cares to do his homework.

On May 24 2017 02:50 darktreb wrote:


Uhh, how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14CC? Literally one time against ForGG in 2008? Weirdest narrative bias.

On May 24 2017 03:21 ii.blitzkrieg wrote:


I think this idea started when Flash got eliminated by GGPlay in his debut OSL (semi finals) where he lost both games 1 and 5 with 14cc vs 9 pool. Also around that time was when he cheesed Bisu out of OSL and a lot of fans were ripping on him for not being able to play late game and being a "flash in the pan" (oh how wrong they were on both counts...) He doesn't 14cc that often and I'm sure when he does he has good reason to lol, he is the best ever for a reason.

On May 24 2017 03:56 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Right after his gom invite win and his first OSL win against stork, flash went through a period where he was 14 ccing in every single matchup probably like 80% of the time, for a couple months. It was mostly a PL thing, but IIRC he did lose a series against jaedong that was basically just 9pool crushing 14cc again and again. Flash went through a bit of a slump in the later half of 08, overworked.

On May 24 2017 03:56 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Right after his gom invite win and his first OSL win against stork, flash went through a period where he was 14 ccing in every single matchup probably like 80% of the time, for a couple months. It was mostly a PL thing, but IIRC he did lose a series against jaedong that was basically just 9pool crushing 14cc again and again. Flash went through a bit of a slump in the later half of 08, overworked.

On May 24 2017 03:56 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Right after his gom invite win and his first OSL win against stork, flash went through a period where he was 14 ccing in every single matchup probably like 80% of the time, for a couple months. It was mostly a PL thing, but IIRC he did lose a series against jaedong that was basically just 9pool crushing 14cc again and again. Flash went through a bit of a slump in the later half of 08, overworked.

On May 24 2017 04:51 ii.blitzkrieg wrote:


I remember him going through a slump late 08 and early 09 before he went on went god mode but I don't remember it being specifically tied to using 14cc a lot. I know you are probably exaggerating with 80% figure but there is no way you can open cc first that much without getting punished hard by any race (over a long enough period of time that people notice the trend obviously.)

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/131901-flash-14cc-stats

That is only tvz and there isn't a record of which time the games were played but 14cc in tvp wasn't a common thing ever

From what I remember he did refine his cc first openers later on, especially on 2 player maps to send an scv to his opponent (usually zergs) to make sure he's safe from early aggression before expanding. I don't remember jaedong beating him with 9p vs 14cc but it's been a while lol, there was the 3-0 finals where flash opened cc first every game and won

On May 24 2017 04:28 Ubersturmfuhrer wrote:


I vaguely remember how he seemed to open with 14cc all the time. The most annoying thing was that usually he would just get away with it, often with his excellent scv micro.

Also how the hell do you remember this stuff so well after 10 years?

On May 24 2017 02:50 darktreb wrote:
Uhh, how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14CC? Literally one time against ForGG in 2008? Weirdest narrative bias.

On May 24 2017 05:01 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Flash sort of was in god mode even in late 08, he was just playing an insane amount of games. I remember him looking constantly stressed and tired around the time im talking about. And yeah it wasnt actually 80%, but it was pretty often. His series against Jaedong in the gom classic, I think he went 14 cc three times in a row and went 0-3. If he didnt it was at least twice in a row, and this was back to back after losing in PL doing 14cc quite a few times. I watched a looot of bw in highschool, thats how.

On May 24 2017 06:46 Barneyk wrote:


Oh, I must be remember it wrong then.
But there were other important games around that time when he went 14cc in similar fashion and lost because of it.
Right?

On May 24 2017 06:00 FlaShFTW wrote:

Afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2 definitely come check us out!

On May 24 2017 07:21 Entertaining wrote:
I just want to say that this was some of the most bias, garbage commentating I've ever heard and would kill for different commentators. If someone else wants to cast these games, you've got me as a viewer. Hell, I'm sure you'd have a lot of viewers.

[Flash and Last trade evenly]

> Wow, what an amazing play by Flash! How can Last ever recover!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!

Shoot me.

On May 24 2017 08:30 ShowTheLights wrote:


who the fuck complains of tastosis

On May 24 2017 01:19 juvenal wrote:

I actually never realised that. Flash truly was a child prodigy when he first came into the scene.

On May 24 2017 01:09 L1ghtning wrote:
It's weird to hear Last being called a robot when he's facing Flash. Calling Flash a robot/cyborg was a running joke back in the day. His eye twitching. His flawless execution. He was even called the Terminator. But maybe this was only a western thing.

And why do Tastosis insist that Last is much younger than Flash, when he's like 4 months younger only?

I feel like a old BW fan for the first time ever.

On May 24 2017 10:23 Vivi57 wrote:


Last time we tried to watch tastosis, they weren't even announcing the build orders. If we are going to listen to english commentary, we expect to be able to figure out who came ahead in the opening while mostly only listening to the audio. If we wanted to have to watch the video to figure out how many hatcheries went down before the pool, we are better off watching the korean commentators.

On May 24 2017 16:59 neobowman wrote:


I think the idea with the Alphago nickname isn't just the robotic aspect of it. Alphago is a learning algorithm. It improves as it plays itself over and over and has become just straight up better than any human at all stages of the game. It's a good nickname since Flash is God and Alphago hasn't reached diety status yet, but can beat all normal humans.

On May 24 2017 19:50 d(O.o)a wrote:
There's a lot more to commentating than just saying/knowing what's going on, it's about being entertaining too and they have that down pat

On May 24 2017 07:48 Vivi57 wrote:


Is there any way those vods can be uploaded to youtube? Afreeca vods lag and we are beyond the point where watching broodwar at 3am is a thing we can do regularly.


Flash's preparation was beautiful. Seeing him take out last faster than last took him out in season 1 was wonderful.

On May 24 2017 19:37 Ilikestarcraft wrote:

Im pretty sure the ppl who called Last by the nickname never even heard of a learning algorithm so I think the name was given just for the robotic aspect.

On May 24 2017 18:23 FlaShFTW wrote:

you do realize theres something called a play-by-play caster right? it helps the audience focus on the specific images they are seeing on their screens. its like when basketball casters pull up a slowmo and literally, its in slowmo, and they're still explaining the play and action play-by-play.

On May 24 2017 19:59 Zera wrote:
In case anyone missed this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMdpircapkw&t=0s

On May 25 2017 05:48 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
I don't mind tastosis actually. They're pretty entertaining to listen to. They get caught napping sometimes, not catching what B.O. is happening, but that's not a big deal imo since you can easily see for yourself what's actually going on... and other casters fall into that trap too (talking about something else instead of watching the early game). Interesting that this debate comes up in this match, coz I think Tastosis actually made more correct calls this series than FlashFTW/John (i.e. the vulture drop at the end).

They've improved too or at least have refrained from talking over and over non-stop about how great a player is. I get they needed to do that for a.) newbies to the BW scene and b.) to build hype/interest.

Obv the gold standard would be the korean casters. Or if I could listen to progamers commentate a live match, that'd be awesome. Now if only I knew korean...

On May 25 2017 03:45 BlackJack wrote:


If you listen to a radio play-by-play guy vs a tv play-by-play guy it's a huge difference. The tv guy doesn't tell you every detail like the radio guy because, again, he assumes you have functional eyes.

On May 25 2017 06:02 EsportsJohn wrote:


I CALLED THE VULTURE DROP, FLASHFTW IS STOOPID

But in all seriousness, Tastetosis are the best. There's no reason not to emulate them; their style is time-tested and solid, and both of them are far and above most people when it comes to game knowledge and elocution. Lately they've been on a noob-friendly kick where they try to explain ultra basic concepts or compare things to other games which has kind of made them look deceivingly dumber than they actually are, but there are a few moments when they are 100% on point (like Artosis calling the double ups vulture drop in G3).

It would be awesome if we had a cast like the Koreans, but from what I understand, it's very strange if you try to put that style into English because it just sounds like a bunch of bros yelling over each other about the game. Another really obvious difference is how English casts have historically been dominated by duo casts while Korean has a tri-cast setup. I'm pretty sure LoL has adopted the tri-cast for live events, but other than that, it's hard to tell how well it work in an RTS.

(P.S. Thanks for all of the support from everyone who watches the cast with FlashFTW and me. I'm obviously very new at this, but I'm listening to feedback and trying to improve.)



Obviously I'm not the most qualified person to talk about this, but I believe that play-by-play should generally try to describe the scene well enough so that someone who is alt-tabbed or listening to the game without watching can understand what's going on. Obviously you don't need to do it quite to the extent that a radio broadcaster would, but I think it's better to say too much than too little on what's happening.

On May 24 2017 00:27 Barneyk wrote:


Probably because he seems to be so inconsistent with his preparation.

In how many leagues was he eliminated early because he kept going for 14cc which was read and expected by his opponents?

In ASL1 he always kept building a forward barracks in the league games as well as on his stream and Last was prepared for it and shut it down and got an easy and big advantage.

In ASL2 and here in ASL3 he seemed to have learned his lesson from ASL1 and he is looking like a fucking mind reader in some games.

These games where really good and it did feel a little bit lackluster that they were so one-sided and fast but Last didn't make any simple major mistakes, he was just outsmarted, outplayed and outflashed.

It can be easy to overlook how well prepared Flash is at times because at other times he isn't I guess.

On May 24 2017 23:57 neobowman wrote:

Alphago was pretty huge in Korea, I'd be surprised if they didn't know about the learning.

On May 25 2017 04:44 usopsama wrote:


"If someone hits me, I hit them back. I gave him what he gave me."

"My mindset coming into this match was, "I'm gonna hit him hard, no matter what."

"This season is all about my revenge."

"I have something to give back to Soulkey as well. I'll make sure to get my revenge."


wtfffffffff This interview is scary as fuck.

Why does Flash have a grudge with Soulkey???

On May 25 2017 17:08 reincremate wrote:
I'd be impressed if Soulkey manages even to take a single game.

On May 25 2017 04:44 usopsama wrote:


"If someone hits me, I hit them back. I gave him what he gave me."

"My mindset coming into this match was, "I'm gonna hit him hard, no matter what."

"This season is all about my revenge."

"I have something to give back to Soulkey as well. I'll make sure to get my revenge."


wtfffffffff This interview is scary as fuck.

Why does Flash have a grudge with Soulkey???

On May 25 2017 07:58 ColdLava wrote:
You've been replied to already I believe but, Flash was very well known for his preparation. The series against GGPlay where he went 14CC every game and got crushed, AND the series against ForGG where he went 14CC every game and gor crushed, were perhaps exceptions, but that was extremely early in his career. But anyone who knows a reasonable amount about professional starcraft has known that Flash was the very best when it came to the mental aspect and preparation of the game, especially keeping in mind that he had a huge target on his back when he was in his prime. (He faced tons of opponents doing cheese builds or taking economic risks specifically tailored to beat him, and they almost never worked.)

On May 25 2017 16:54 Lebesgue wrote:


It is damn scary. It sounds like from those korean revenge movies.

After the beating that presented to Last, Flash sends a strong message to Soulkey. Soulkey should be scared.

On May 26 2017 21:46 _Animus_ wrote:
Flash was playing perfect in game 1 and was definitely beatable in game 2, game 3 was build order win. To be honest, Flash looking so good have a lot to do with how sloppy Last was playing.
In game one the first push last made wasnt so good and it was the turning point in the game, if last managed to succeed and set up position at Flash nat, that might be just game. Flash did great job with moves after he secures position on map, when he just take up all the units in dropships while Last doesnt have a clue whats happening.

Second game. You can see the choke on Last's face from the begining of the game. He played so super ultra sloppy that its not believable. Last was so shocked by the wraith of Flash that he pulled like 6-7 scvs to make 1 turret, while at the same time he totally forgot about his expand and started to build turret there like 2 minutes later, after flash pulled his wraiths from the main base.


In their previous match Llast taken out Flash in the same fashion, it was so perfectly executed by Last that he looked like the master of tvt.
Im really eager to see their 3rd meeting in a next possible ASL.

On May 26 2017 23:02 Miragee wrote:


Actually, I think G1 was more winnable for Last. I still don't understand why he gg'd so quickly.

On May 27 2017 00:51 BigFan wrote:

He lost all his SCVs at his third and most in his main. He was in a terrible situation economically and had a smaller army due to them filtering in after the drop in his main. In that position, against flash of all people? no chance of recovering to try and make a comeback.