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United States37500 Posts
On February 17 2006 13:15 tfeign wrote:
They made it to the grand final of the biggest league in Korea
They went undefeated last regular season
Two of the most recent major prize money events were won by KTF members
The most recent Starleague winner was a KTF member
KTF member won WWI
Point 1: SKT1 made it to the finals as well.
2: And who came in first in the first finals?
3: Again, this is what we're talking about. There were no SKT1 players there to represent them, so by default you shouldn't be using that as an arguement to support your claim.
4: It's a fact, MSL. So no comment.
5: same as point 3.
The thing I'm trying to point out is that you're using the two showmatches as support that KTF is a strong team, which no one has aruged about. But again, this thread is about KTF vS SKT1, for the sake of ProLeague Finals. Then for the sake of this arguement, stop relying on two showmatches in which SKT1 did not participate in.
That's all I'm trying to say. Like everyone else in page 1 who was telling you stop commenting about Blizzcon and BWWI.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On February 16 2006 20:07 tfeign wrote:
Their players are perhaps in the best individual shapes ever.
Are they?
Reach - not in this OSL, not in the next, was in last MSL, will be in the next MSL
Nal_rA - not been in OSL for ages, not yet qualified for the next, was in last MSL, will be in next MSL
Goodfriend - was in this OSL, has yet to qualify for the next OSL, was in last MSL, not in the next MSL
YellOw - not in this OSL, not yet qualified for the next, was not in the last MSL, not in the next MSL
Chojja - not in this OSL, not yet qualified for the next, was in last MSL, will be in the next MSL
while:
Boxer - was in this OSL, has yet to qualify for the next, was in last MSL, be in next MSL
iloveoov - is still in this OSL, was in last MSL, will be in next MSL
Kingdom - ok hasn't been in OSL for a while, won't be in the next, will be in next MSL though
Midas - was in this OSL, has yet to qualify for the next, was not in last MSL, will be in next MSL
Gorush - was not in last OSL, will be in the next OSL, was not in last MSL, will be in the next MSL
So counting by Starleague participation (last/ongoing as well as next one):
Reach 2
Nal_rA 2, potentially 3
Goodfriend 2, potentially 3
YellOw 0, potentially 1
Chojja 3, potentially 4
Total 9, potentially 13
iloveoov 3, potentially 4
Boxer 3, potentially 4
Kingdom 1
Gorush 2
Midas 2, potentially 3
Total 11, potentially 14
Plus SKT1 has Rainbow who would give 4 points by this definition, Mumyung would give 2 while all the other KTF members are a bunch of crap. Oh no, wait, Mingu would actually get a point, great stuff.
They beat GO by 4-2. When was the last time GO got beaten that badly by such a 2:1 margin?
See PoP for SKT vs GO.
They shaved their heads. Remember what happened when KOR shaved their heads? Wow. I was rooting for SKT when they bashed KTF and KHAN in the round finals, guess what happened. Guess what will happen this time? ^^ Means jack shit in both cases, yours and mine.
One word: Goodfriend. KTF annihilated competition even without Goodfriend's help. Now with his talent available, KTF has suddenly become even deadlier.
See SKT 1 round 1 without iloveoov, same thing.
Their 2v2 team is superior. Reach & Yellow are back and Luna is back.
That's why they lost vs. IPX/Oversky last game on Luna, right?
KTF's 1v1 team is better than SKT1's. Lets not think SKT1 > KTF in 1v1 just because a few people seem to think so. Taking a look at solid performance statistics will tell you otherwise. Check below: Rankings taken from: http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=36391I'll take 5 of the best KTF players and compare them to 5 of the best SKT1 players. The results are as follows: Reach KTF 1263.9 pts ChoJJa KTF 1282.6 pts Nal_rA KTF 906.6 pts Yellow KTF 782.4 pts GoodFriend KTF 757.1 Total points = 4992.6 Iloveoov SKT1 1357.0 pts Slayers`BoxeR` SKT1 1049.8 pts Midas SKT1 924.5 pts Kingdom SKT1 689.8 pts GoRush SKT1 673.8 pts Total points = 4694.9 What does that say? That's right - KTF players outperformed SKT1 players over the last 12 months by a margin of about 300 points! KTF's top 3 players also outperforms SKT1's top 3 players.
that's about a 5% margin, which is almost equal to nothing. Also see my Starleague participation above.
Oh and keep in mind that Kespa rankings don't even take into account stuff like BWWI, Blizzcon, etc...where KTF players owned even more. If Kespa took these events into account, I can't imagine how much more KTF would own up the chart.
Bullshit. You cannot seriously think about counting INVITE tournaments. How can a player prove himself if he's not invited? Right, he cannot.
KTF players have achieved more than players of any other team. KTF players have outperformed players of any other team. They have won more tournaments than players of any other team. They have the best 1v1 and 2v2 lineup. They have out-accomplished everybody. The Kespa rankings prove it. SKT1 doesn't even have one single individual tournament victory since 2004. Why a lot of you are saying SKT1 > KTF is beyond me. KTF _MAY_ arguably have a _slight_ advantage if you go by top5 1v1, if you go beyond they don't. And imo SKT players are stronger anyway.
2v2 is simply wrong.
By the way, stats of Proleague Round 2:
SKT: 47-25 (overall), 28-15 (1v1), 19-10 (2v2)
KTF: 44-32 (overall), 24-19(1v1), 20-13 (2v2)
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Finally a good post (since PoP's) I can debate to.
KTF's players are in the best individual shapes as a whole is true. I didn't make any comparison with SKT1's players with this statement. More KTF players have qualified/will most likely qualify for upcoming starleagues than they ever did in the previous year. This supports the claim. I never made a statement that SKT1's players are in bad shape. What is true though is that KTF players upon qualifying, performs better and achieves more than SKT1 players, as shown in Kespa rankings.
I won't debate about SKT1 vs GO. PoP wins this one.
Players shaving their heads have a definite impact on their performance. If you think that Kor, after going 1-5 (I think?), came back and win 4 times in a row after shaving their heads was a pure coincidence, then you must be in denial. Likewise, KTF dominated over GO after shaving their heads, and are likely to continue to perform better than usual under this short effect.
The top 5 KTF players displaying a 300 point margin over the top 5 SKT1 players show that they are at least every bit as good as SKT1 players, if not better, and refuting the ridiculous claim that the team underchieves. Calling KTF players "a bunch of underachievers" is what sets me off when their players have individually achieved more, won more, placed higher than players of any other team in the league over the last year.
Regarding your 2v2 statistics: KTF's star 2v2 team is Yellow and Reach. During R2, how many times did Yellow and Reach played 2v2 for KTF? I hardly remember any. If the coach is smart enough to use the Reach&Yellow combo for 2v2, KTF's 2v2 team is superior. Goodfriend&Chojja hasn't been tested yet, so we won't go into that. The overall statistics is not indicative of KTF's 2v2 strength because they include performances of 2v2 teams other than Yellow&Reach which obviously had negatively effected the stats. As long as the KTF coach knows what he's doing in terms of pairing up players, KTF's 2v2 should > SKT1's 2v2.
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LOL you cant be serious on the shaving part  Are you a believer ?
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I believe in the power of shaving!
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United States37500 Posts
Hahaha, your way of aruging is remarkable. If you are seriously bringing "shaving head = better performace," then I'm done posting with you tfeign.
While you're at it, go google "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc"
Here, I'll help.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/post-hoc.html
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
browsing through all the proleague threads I could find I got this for round 2:
Reach/Yellow > Anytime/ShinHwa @ Iron Curtain
Reach/Yellow > Soo/TheWind @ ???
Reach/Yellow < some Khan 2v2 team @ ???
Reach/Yellow < Anytime/some Zerg @ ???
Reach/Yellow > GGplay/Sunny @ ???
Reach/Yellow > iloveoov/Mumyung @ Iron Curtain
Reach/Yellow > July/Pusan @ ???
Plus another loss, where I couldn't find the player names, but my memory seems to think it was Reach/Yellow, so according to this they went 5-2 or 5-3 during round 2.
They also lost their 2v2 on Luna vs IPX/Oversky in the playoffs vs. GO this week.
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Put Reach and Yellow on Iron Curtain or Luna together and they will own it up. If they lost any, I wouldn't be surprised if they were played on Usan Nation, which will now be taken care of by Chojja/GF. Either that or they had a bad day. You can always lose once in a while. Fact is they're one dominant team that has one of the most impressive 2v2 records over the last 2 seasons.
When I was watching the GO vs KTF series a couple days ago, I'm pretty sure they showed on the screen that Reach/Yellow has a 2v2 record of 13-3.
Yeah they did lost vs IPX/Oversky but that's more likely to be a fluke than anything. If Reach/Yellow played IPX/Oversky in a bo5 on Luna instead of a bo1 I'd have no doubt Reach/Yellow would have ended up destroying them.
Even July can lose to ForU on bad days.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On February 17 2006 16:27 tfeign wrote:
Put Reach and Yellow on Iron Curtain or Luna together and they will own it up. If they lost any, I wouldn't be surprised if they were played on Usan Nation, which will now be taken care of by Chojja/GF.
I'm not fully certain, but Reach/Yellow played at least mostly Iron Curtain throughout round 2, if not solely. Canata/Rumble are about as "invincible" on Usan Nation as Reach/Yellow on Luna by the way...
Also GF/Chojja have close to zero experience vs. Proleague teams as of yet.
When I was watching the GO vs KTF series a couple days ago, I'm pretty sure they showed on the screen that Reach/Yellow has a 2v2 record of 13-3.
Seems to be accurate, as I recall them going 8-0 in round 1, so it would add up with my 5-3 stats.
By the way, the map order for the final is the following
Game 1 - R-Point
Game 2 - Usan Nation
Game 3 - Rush Hour 2.0
Game 4 - Luna The Final
Game 5 - Neo Requiem
Game 6 - Iron Curtain
Game 7 - Neo Forte
If it was me I'd put:
Game 1 -> Boxer, this map is surnamed Lim-Point for a reason.
Game 2 -> Canata/Rumble, easy win.
Game 3 -> Gorush or iloveoov
Game 4 -> Kingdom/Mummy, Rainbow/Mummy, Gorush/Canata or some shit
Game 5 -> Kingdom, perfect map for Kingdom's PvZ, good map for PvT and unless his opponent is Reach Kingdom always wins PvP
Game 6 -> dunno
Game 7 -> iloveoov is the obvious choice
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Sweden33723 Posts
KOR started doing well because in addition to shaving, they started practicing harder than ever before - that's what the shaving is a symbol of - beginning something new, shaving your hair armystyle etcetc It just shows that you are going to put a lot of effort into something.
Remember when Grrr and Elky did that? They didn't really succeed tho but yeah, they did it too ;o
By the way,
IOPS January - April 2005
1. NaDa (P&C)
2. Julyzerg (POS)
3. Gorush (SKT T1, or was he still in GO?)
4. Goodfriend (KTF, although P&C at the time)
Ever 2 May - July 2005
1. Julyzerg (POS)
2. Goodfriend (KTF, although P&C at the time)
3. Xellos (GO)
4. Gorush (SKT T1, surely not in GO still? I'm not sure when he joined)
So1 August - November 2005
1. Anytime (Plus)
2. Boxer (SKT T1)
3. Oov (SKT T1)
4. Pusan (POS)
You're the GolfKing MSL
1. Gorush (SKT T1, although he was GO at the time)
2. Nada (P&C)
3. Xellos (GO)
4. Chojja (KTF)
UZOO MSL
1. IPXZerg (GO)
2. Reach (KTF)
3. Chojja (KTF)
4. iloveoov (SKT T1)
And this latest one, I'm only sure about the top 3..
Chojja (KTF)
IPXZerg (GO)
Iloveoov (SKT T1)
? Mumyung?
P&C - 2
Plus - 1
POS - 3 (and they have 2 more coming no matter what in this starleague)
SKT T1 - 7 (-3 if you don't want to count gorush's placings, they are guaranteed at least another top 4 placing in the current starleague)
KTF - 5 (-2 if you dont want to count goodfriend's placements)
As for 1st places.. KTF has ONE.
If you back track through the entire starleague history of MBC, KTF has 2 (was Nal_rA even KTF when he won? Or was he still GO?). If you add the OGN victories, well, you have a total of 5 (again, was nal_ra even KTF when he won?). And reach was in hanbit when he won his. Was Sync KTF when he won?
Now, SKT T1 might not have a single 1st place since EVER 2004 (which ended in november that year) however, if you look back they do have a grand total of 8 - 6 of these are homegrown, Gorush and Kingdom imported - first places through history.. What KTF player besides Chojja has won anything major since joining KTF? None.
Reach got his win in hanbit.
Yellow never wins starleagues, and the only one he did win (a ghemtv open challenger starleague or something) he won as a member of IS I believe.
Sync might have gotten his win as a part of KTF, I'm not sure, I dont know what team he was on back in 2002.
Nal_rA I *think* got both his wins as a member of GO.
Chojja got his only win as a KTF member.
This might be really, really, incoherent.. I'm a bit tired + watching a movie while writing this, so if it is, I apoligize.
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On February 17 2006 16:43 FrozenArbiter wrote:
KOR started doing well because in addition to shaving, they started practicing harder than ever before - that's what the shaving is a symbol of - beginning something new, shaving your hair armystyle etcetc It just shows that you are going to put a lot of effort into something.
Remember when Grrr and Elky did that? They didn't really succeed tho but yeah, they did it too ;o
By the way,
IOPS January - April 2005
1. NaDa (P&C)
2. Julyzerg (POS)
3. Gorush (SKT T1, or was he still in GO?)
4. Goodfriend (KTF, although P&C at the time)
Ever 2 May - July 2005
1. Julyzerg (POS)
2. Goodfriend (KTF, although P&C at the time)
3. Xellos (GO)
4. Gorush (SKT T1, surely not in GO still? I'm not sure when he joined)
So1 August - November 2005
1. Anytime (Plus)
2. Boxer (SKT T1)
3. Oov (SKT T1)
4. Pusan (POS)
You're the GolfKing MSL
1. Gorush (SKT T1, although he was GO at the time)
2. Nada (P&C)
3. Xellos (GO)
4. Chojja (KTF)
UZOO MSL
1. IPXZerg (GO)
2. Reach (KTF)
3. Chojja (KTF)
4. iloveoov (SKT T1)
And this latest one, I'm only sure about the top 3..
Chojja (KTF)
IPXZerg (GO)
Iloveoov (SKT T1)
? Mumyung?
P&C - 2
Plus - 1
POS - 3 (and they have 2 more coming no matter what in this starleague)
SKT T1 - 7 (-3 if you don't want to count gorush's placings, they are guaranteed at least another top 4 placing in the current starleague)
KTF - 5 (-2 if you dont want to count goodfriend's placements)
As for 1st places.. KTF has ONE.
If you back track through the entire starleague history of MBC, KTF has 2 (was Nal_rA even KTF when he won? Or was he still GO?). If you add the OGN victories, well, you have a total of 5 (again, was nal_ra even KTF when he won?). And reach was in hanbit when he won his. Was Sync KTF when he won?
Now, SKT T1 might not have a single 1st place since EVER 2004 (which ended in november that year) however, if you look back they do have a grand total of 8 - 6 of these are homegrown, Gorush and Kingdom imported - first places through history.. What KTF player besides Chojja has won anything major since joining KTF? None.
Reach got his win in hanbit.
Yellow never wins starleagues, and the only one he did win (a ghemtv open challenger starleague or something) he won as a member of IS I believe.
Sync might have gotten his win as a part of KTF, I'm not sure, I dont know what team he was on back in 2002.
Nal_rA I *think* got both his wins as a member of GO.
Chojja got his only win as a KTF member.
This might be really, really, incoherent.. I'm a bit tired + watching a movie while writing this, so if it is, I apoligize.
Sync was in Hanbit during NATE and rA was in GO for both his wins. Oddysay was the only big name KTF member until the mass exodus from IS following Boxer's departure after Sky 2k2.
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Well Boxer got his OSL wins back when he was member of IS 
Dunno what team Kingdom played for when he won his.
NaDa however played for KTF when he won Panasonic
Some of his KPGA wins are probably from his time in IS though.
GO has actually bred alot of champions; Xellos, Nal_rA, Gorush, and IPXZerg.
SKT1 has 4 all by Oov.
If GARIMTO played for Hanbit, they have 4 with Reach and Syncs wins.
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Sweden33723 Posts
On February 17 2006 18:12 Guybrush wrote:Well Boxer got his OSL wins back when he was member of IS Dunno what team Kingdom played for when he won his. NaDa however played for KTF when he won Panasonic Some of his KPGA wins are probably from his time in IS though. GO has actually bred alot of champions; Xellos, Nal_rA, Gorush, and IPXZerg. SKT1 has 4 all by Oov. If GARIMTO played for Hanbit, they have 4 with Reach and Syncs wins.
Silly of me forget about boxer being in IS  Guess I see him as the father of SKT T1 and therefore kinda like drags the team along with him +_+
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What facinates me is the fact that July is still at POS. In the beginning of last year everyone was sure that he'd go to SKT1 or KTF, but he's still in POS, and after they got Pusan they have two of the most inshape players atm. Now that Sea is starting to shine as well, and if they manage to get another player of same level they're on a good way to create a new powerhouse. + I love their new uniforms
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United States37500 Posts
POS is definitely a rising star. I'd like to see them play more team games.
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On February 17 2006 18:12 Guybrush wrote:Well Boxer got his OSL wins back when he was member of IS Dunno what team Kingdom played for when he won his. NaDa however played for KTF when he won Panasonic Some of his KPGA wins are probably from his time in IS though. GO has actually bred alot of champions; Xellos, Nal_rA, Gorush, and IPXZerg. SKT1 has 4 all by Oov. If GARIMTO played for Hanbit, they have 4 with Reach and Syncs wins.
Kingdom was in SKT1 when he won MyCube.
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On February 17 2006 16:43 FrozenArbiter wrote:
KOR started doing well because in addition to shaving, they started practicing harder than ever before - that's what the shaving is a symbol of - beginning something new, shaving your hair armystyle etcetc It just shows that you are going to put a lot of effort into something.
Remember when Grrr and Elky did that? They didn't really succeed tho but yeah, they did it too ;o
By the way,
IOPS January - April 2005
1. NaDa (P&C)
2. Julyzerg (POS)
3. Gorush (SKT T1, or was he still in GO?)
4. Goodfriend (KTF, although P&C at the time)
Ever 2 May - July 2005
1. Julyzerg (POS)
2. Goodfriend (KTF, although P&C at the time)
3. Xellos (GO)
4. Gorush (SKT T1, surely not in GO still? I'm not sure when he joined)
So1 August - November 2005
1. Anytime (Plus)
2. Boxer (SKT T1)
3. Oov (SKT T1)
4. Pusan (POS)
You're the GolfKing MSL
1. Gorush (SKT T1, although he was GO at the time)
2. Nada (P&C)
3. Xellos (GO)
4. Chojja (KTF)
UZOO MSL
1. IPXZerg (GO)
2. Reach (KTF)
3. Chojja (KTF)
4. iloveoov (SKT T1)
And this latest one, I'm only sure about the top 3..
Chojja (KTF)
IPXZerg (GO)
Iloveoov (SKT T1)
? Mumyung?
P&C - 2
Plus - 1
POS - 3 (and they have 2 more coming no matter what in this starleague)
SKT T1 - 7 (-3 if you don't want to count gorush's placings, they are guaranteed at least another top 4 placing in the current starleague)
KTF - 5 (-2 if you dont want to count goodfriend's placements)
As for 1st places.. KTF has ONE.
You forgot about the Snickers Starleague, where Yellow won it and Nal_rA had a top 4 placement..
Taking out Gorush and Goodfriend and considering the Snickers, my claims are all valid. Also when KTF players make a high placement in a league, they tend to out-achieve SKT1 players, as evident in KTF winning two leagues while SKT1 has none, along with the fact that they outscore SKT1 players in the Kespa rankings even though SKT1 players have played in Starleagues more times than KTF players did over the last year.
Oh and by the way [ODT R2 SPOILERS COMING]
Yellow just advanced to the next OSL. Anyone still want to say Yellow is not in great shape? Add that one to my list of reasons. The KTF team, upon shaving, has never looked in better shape as a whole.
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Sweden33723 Posts
On February 18 2006 00:37 tfeign wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2006 16:43 FrozenArbiter wrote:
KOR started doing well because in addition to shaving, they started practicing harder than ever before - that's what the shaving is a symbol of - beginning something new, shaving your hair armystyle etcetc It just shows that you are going to put a lot of effort into something.
Remember when Grrr and Elky did that? They didn't really succeed tho but yeah, they did it too ;o
By the way,
IOPS January - April 2005
1. NaDa (P&C)
2. Julyzerg (POS)
3. Gorush (SKT T1, or was he still in GO?)
4. Goodfriend (KTF, although P&C at the time)
Ever 2 May - July 2005
1. Julyzerg (POS)
2. Goodfriend (KTF, although P&C at the time)
3. Xellos (GO)
4. Gorush (SKT T1, surely not in GO still? I'm not sure when he joined)
So1 August - November 2005
1. Anytime (Plus)
2. Boxer (SKT T1)
3. Oov (SKT T1)
4. Pusan (POS)
You're the GolfKing MSL
1. Gorush (SKT T1, although he was GO at the time)
2. Nada (P&C)
3. Xellos (GO)
4. Chojja (KTF)
UZOO MSL
1. IPXZerg (GO)
2. Reach (KTF)
3. Chojja (KTF)
4. iloveoov (SKT T1)
And this latest one, I'm only sure about the top 3..
Chojja (KTF)
IPXZerg (GO)
Iloveoov (SKT T1)
? Mumyung?
P&C - 2
Plus - 1
POS - 3 (and they have 2 more coming no matter what in this starleague)
SKT T1 - 7 (-3 if you don't want to count gorush's placings, they are guaranteed at least another top 4 placing in the current starleague)
KTF - 5 (-2 if you dont want to count goodfriend's placements)
As for 1st places.. KTF has ONE. You forgot about the Snickers Starleague, where Yellow won it and Nal_rA had a top 4 placement.. Taking out Gorush and Goodfriend and considering the Snickers, my claims are all valid. Also when KTF players make a high placement in a league, they tend to out-achieve SKT1 players, as evident in KTF winning two leagues while SKT1 has none, along with the fact that they outscore SKT1 players in the Kespa rankings even SKT1 players have played in Starleagues more times than KTF players did over the last year. Oh and by the way [ODT R2 SPOILERS COMING] Yellow just advanced to the next OSL. Anyone still want to say Yellow is not in great shape? Add that one to my list of reasons. The KTF team, upon shaving, has never looked in better shape as a whole.
I don't count snickers.. It's an invite tournament, counts about as much as a king of kings event (not at all) -..-; Doesn't matter if it's hard, it's not a major thing :O
Good ODT news!
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Snickers was not an invite tournament. You had to be good enough to be voted in order to be able to compete. It's not like BWWI where someone just randomnly invites a KTF member to play.
It was a big tournament with a big prize pool where 3 KTF players competed against 2 SKT1 players in addition to other players in other teams. The result? 2 out of 3 KTF players placed top 4. One actually won it all. 0 SKT1 players placed top 4.
I wouldn't call it as major a reasoning as winning a Starleague (Chojja) but it was definitely a big televised league that did infact had SKT1 and KTF players compete against each others.
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EPT
