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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
So alright, prelims are about as hard as winning a starleague. I definitely don't think the non korean players in it contribute to making it harder than a starleague tho. EDIT: Does anyone else find the 'recent' shift of focus from individual leagues to the Proleague kinda boring? It sounds like they never get to practice for individual leagues (I guess I'm not much of a team player - I don't really enjoy proleague much). | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On February 16 2006 05:57 Guybrush wrote: I agree that GO was responsible for training him and they benefitted etc. But that doesnt change the fact that SKT1 has a player that won MSL, and talking about the accomplishments of players on SKT1 you sure as hell wont ignore that fact just because he won MSL as a GO player. Okay, I guess the way my sentence was phrased it caused confusions. I'll rephrase it: No players have won anything as an SKT1 member since oov did it in 2004. On February 16 2006 06:07 Guybrush wrote: I dont agree with this part because I think Starleague-caliber players > every top players in the world(excluding the obvious players in korea). Yes, I agree that Starleague-caliber players > every top players in the world. But winning WCG requires you to beat every top players in the world in addition to beating Starleague-caliber players. Winning a starleague only requires you to beat Starleague-caliber players. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
On February 16 2006 06:09 tfeign wrote: Okay, I guess the way my sentence was phrased it caused confusions. I'll rephrase it: No players have won anything as an SKT1 member since oov did it in 2004. Agreed =] | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On February 16 2006 06:08 FrozenArbiter wrote: Does anyone else find the 'recent' shift of focus from individual leagues to the Proleague kinda boring? It sounds like they never get to practice for individual leagues (I guess I'm not much of a team player - I don't really enjoy proleague much). I think proleague games are the most enjoyable of all, particularly the 1v1s. Why? Because you always get the best games. Coaches, most of the time, only picks out players who performs very well in practice for 1v1s. In individual leagues, sometimes you don't have the very best of games because there's always a chance a really good player goes on an unlucky streak and not qualify. We couldn't see nal_ra for a while in individual leagues because he got in an unlucky streak. However, we know he's an awesome player and always get chosen to play in pro leagues. "Dream matches" are much more likely to occur in pro league than in individual leagues. I'm willing to bet Boxer vs July is likely going to happen in proleague before starleague. But anyway, it makes sense to focus on proleagues. Individual accomplishments mostly benefits the individual player. Proleague benefits the entire team. If I was the owner of SKTelecom, I would definitely tell the coach to tell the players to focus on winning Proleague. Why? Because by winning proleague, SKTelecom is the champion. My company name is marketed much more than say, if oov wins a starleague. Some non-progaming fans may not even know what team he belongs in. But if SKT1 wins a pro league, the company name is marketed in a much better way. Not only that, I'd bet on it that coaches benefit much more financially when the team wins than when an individual from his team wins, so he'll urge his players to focus more on proleague. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
WCG is one of those short-span tournaments where the players get all their games going fast. OSL is one of those where preparation is one of the most important factors that decide the outcome. I think the longer a tournament last, and the better preparation a player get, chances are the overall best player will win. Which maybe explains very few "superstars" have qualified for WCG past the Boxer era. Xellos being the exception of course. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
On February 16 2006 06:23 tfeign wrote: I think proleague games are the most enjoyable of all, particularly the 1v1s. Why? Because you always get the best games. Coaches, most of the time, only picks out players who performs very well in practice for 1v1s. In individual leagues, sometimes you don't have the very best of games because there's always a chance a really good player goes on an unlucky streak and not qualify. We couldn't see nal_ra for a while in individual leagues because he got in an unlucky streak. However, we know he's an awesome player and always get chosen to play in pro leagues. "Dream matches" are much more likely to occur in pro league than in individual leagues. I'm willing to bet Boxer vs July is likely going to happen in proleague before starleague. But anyway, it makes sense to focus on proleagues. Individual accomplishments mostly benefits the individual player. Proleague benefits the entire team. If I was the owner of SKTelecom, I would definitely tell the coach to tell the players to focus on winning Proleague. Why? Because by winning proleague, SKTelecom is the champion. My company name is marketed much more than say, if oov wins a starleague. Some non-progaming fans may not even know what team he belongs in. But if SKT1 wins a pro league, the company name is marketed in a much better way. Not only that, I'd bet on it that coaches benefit much more financially when the team wins than when an individual from his team wins, so he'll urge his players to focus more on proleague. Agreed 100%. Especially the fact that recent OSLs havent really provided excellent games, because there's alot of great players missing out. The proleague clashes like KTF vs SKT1 is likely to produce those excellent matches. Of course maps plays in a great deal as well. Personally I think the 815 map is really boring, and they should get rid of it. Also the reason to why players have to focus alot on teamleagues are obvious. Sponsors! | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On February 16 2006 03:28 tfeign wrote: They made it to the grand final of the biggest league in Korea They went undefeated last regular season Two of the most recent major prize money events were won by KTF members The most recent Starleague winner was a KTF member KTF member won WWI A bunch of underachievers alright. What has an SKT1 member won anything recently? Nothing at all! The year now is 2006. The last time an SKT1 member won a major prize money tournament was 2 years ago in 2004. Since that time, three different KTF members have won major prize money tournaments in at least 4 different occasions; one KTF member won major prize money tournaments a multiple number of times. SKT1 members have won absolutely nothing. Back up what you say with facts please. Except for Chojja winning the MSL, you really can't say KTF have been performing better than T1 lately. As far as individual performance goes, they actually did somewhat better lately thanks to him (although T1 getting 2/3 in the last OSL while meantime qualifying 8 players for the next MSL is damn impressive), but considering proleagues are what the progamers are practicing the most for (and also that it's what interests us there), T1 have been clearly more successful. And they're the logical favourites for the grand finals. (Oh and, couting WWI? 3 KTF players against a slumping Nada and a bunch of foreigners (not to sound like foreigners are terrible, but let's be honest here), that's not what I call a relevant achievement.) This being said, I think KTF have a better shot than in R1. Their players are in better shape and they've got a very solid terran player, which they were lacking a lot. T1's 1v1 players will have to practice their vT matchups a lot more than for R1 finals. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
On February 16 2006 06:09 tfeign wrote: Okay, I guess the way my sentence was phrased it caused confusions. I'll rephrase it: No players have won anything as an SKT1 member since oov did it in 2004. Yes, I agree that Starleague-caliber players > every top players in the world. But winning WCG requires you to beat every top players in the world in addition to beating Starleague-caliber players. Winning a starleague only requires you to beat Starleague-caliber players. I think if you count the preliminaries for WCG you should count the ones for OGN too - the ODL has plenty of non-starleague calibre players, and the prelims for that are gruelling as well. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
On February 16 2006 06:23 tfeign wrote: I think proleague games are the most enjoyable of all, particularly the 1v1s. Why? Because you always get the best games. Coaches, most of the time, only picks out players who performs very well in practice for 1v1s. In individual leagues, sometimes you don't have the very best of games because there's always a chance a really good player goes on an unlucky streak and not qualify. We couldn't see nal_ra for a while in individual leagues because he got in an unlucky streak. However, we know he's an awesome player and always get chosen to play in pro leagues. "Dream matches" are much more likely to occur in pro league than in individual leagues. I'm willing to bet Boxer vs July is likely going to happen in proleague before starleague. But anyway, it makes sense to focus on proleagues. Individual accomplishments mostly benefits the individual player. Proleague benefits the entire team. If I was the owner of SKTelecom, I would definitely tell the coach to tell the players to focus on winning Proleague. Why? Because by winning proleague, SKTelecom is the champion. My company name is marketed much more than say, if oov wins a starleague. Some non-progaming fans may not even know what team he belongs in. But if SKT1 wins a pro league, the company name is marketed in a much better way. Not only that, I'd bet on it that coaches benefit much more financially when the team wins than when an individual from his team wins, so he'll urge his players to focus more on proleague. I think the proleague games lack the continuity of a starleague. For the same reason, I don't really enjoy the group stage of OGN either, and I'm not a fan of the new 1-game-a week in the quarter finals.. I'm well aware of the financial reasons and I don't like it, because it feels like the individual leagues suffer because of it (although I of course recognize that it's the sensible decision to make). The smaller teams seem to focus more on the individual leagues, which I guess is good in a way, but they don't have the stars which you wish would do the same. Hearing boxer and oov couldn't practice for their first starleague quarter finals game because of proleague just annoys me =[ On the other hand, anytime really showed what some dedicated tournament practice can do, he had special builds prepared every game, very classy. | ||
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
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The6357
United States1268 Posts
In korean people/player's perspective, that event was for the "losers"...if u read any of the korean forum related to that event...there are only flamings... While skt1 (ktf's rival) is in proleague finals, ktf (failed to go to 2nd league final) members and Nada (now in pc bang tourney in both ongamenet and mbcgames) were participating some amateur event. | ||
jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
 Player vs player comparison SKT1 has an edge in nearly all aspects. KTFs chances lies in their tosses getting good matchups and claiming the 2vs2 games. That's my take on things anyways. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On February 16 2006 03:28 tfeign wrote: They made it to the grand final of the biggest league in Korea Same with T1. They went undefeated last regular season Even in their prime, they lost to T1 in the first final. Two of the most recent major prize money events were won by KTF members The most recent Starleague winner was a KTF member KTF member won WWI I'll give Chojja credit for winning that MSL, but IPX doesn't have the best ZvZ either. As for WWI, three out of four Korean participants were from team KTF... I'd be suprised if Nada actually took it. edit: Haha, didn't even read PoP's post before posting. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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hasuprotoss
United States4690 Posts
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bsj9
United States927 Posts
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
I agree with FA, I guess it's a matter of preference, but I enjoy the individual leagues much more than Proleague, it's probably got to do with the fact that you never know who's going to play vs who beforehand, I can never look forward to particular games. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
Why KTF will beat SKT1: Their players are perhaps in the best individual shapes ever. SKT1 players have not won any individual leages since 2004. They beat GO by 4-2. When was the last time GO got beaten that badly by such a 2:1 margin? They shaved their heads. Remember what happened when KOR shaved their heads? One word: Goodfriend. KTF annihilated competition even without Goodfriend's help. Now with his talent available, KTF has suddenly become even deadlier. Their 2v2 team is superior. Reach & Yellow are back and Luna is back. KTF's 1v1 team is better than SKT1's. Lets not think SKT1 > KTF in 1v1 just because a few people seem to think so. Taking a look at solid performance statistics will tell you otherwise. Check below: Rankings taken from: http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=36391 I'll take 5 of the best KTF players and compare them to 5 of the best SKT1 players. The results are as follows: Reach KTF 1263.9 pts ChoJJa KTF 1282.6 pts Nal_rA KTF 906.6 pts Yellow KTF 782.4 pts GoodFriend KTF 757.1 Total points = 4992.6 Iloveoov SKT1 1357.0 pts Slayers`BoxeR` SKT1 1049.8 pts Midas SKT1 924.5 pts Kingdom SKT1 689.8 pts GoRush SKT1 673.8 pts Total points = 4694.9 What does that say? That's right - KTF players outperformed SKT1 players over the last 12 months by a margin of about 300 points! KTF's top 3 players also outperforms SKT1's top 3 players. Oh and keep in mind that Kespa rankings don't even take into account stuff like BWWI, Blizzcon, etc...where KTF players owned even more. If Kespa took these events into account, I can't imagine how much more KTF would own up the chart. KTF players have achieved more than players of any other team. KTF players have outperformed players of any other team. They have won more tournaments than players of any other team. They have the best 1v1 and 2v2 lineup. They have out-accomplished everybody. The Kespa rankings prove it. SKT1 doesn't even have one single individual tournament victory since 2004. Why a lot of you are saying SKT1 > KTF is beyond me. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
Boxer vs Yellow Boxer vs Nal_rA GoRush vs Sync (classic, EVER1 regames) Kingdom vs Nal_rA Midas vs Reach Oov vs Reach | ||
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